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jzwakefield
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 11 2016 : 6:11:47 PM
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I have been trying to find God and follow a path of spiritual enlightenment for some time. I have had some progress but keep trying meditation, then finding it not easy, giving up and then coming back.
I read The Power of Now and I was drawn to his ideas but a bit undecided. In particular, I'm a bit split about the idea of a "watcher" coming to light, and being your true self observing your thoughts. It seems a bit of a step to take. I know you can distance yourself from some thoughts you have by stepping back a bit but surely when you do it's just your mind having a more detached thought after extricating itself from temporary emotional excitement or whatever? I can't help wondering if the alleged watcher is simply your mind having another thought? Does this make sense? is it a common stance? Have I missed some really basic idea?
Thanks for your input to help me with this. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2016 : 7:09:18 PM
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Hi jzwakefield,
Welcome to the forum! I read the Power of Now without regularly meditating. Certain parts resonated with me, but from where I was at then, it was definitively mind looking at mind.
I've been meditating for quite some time now. There really is a part of you that is just a watcher, awareness, witness, etc. I'm not always the "watcher", but continue to have those experiences ( even though a part of me knows it's always happening). I needed meditation( still need meditation!) to realize this. |
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Beehive
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2016 : 8:04:58 PM
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Hi jzwakefield...  I found meditation "not easy" too. And the truth is for me to keep doing something regularly enough to benefit from it, I knew I would need to find it interesting or pleasurable - or really short! So I started with short, guided meditations till I could sit and not be frustrated. Then many times the meditation became pleasurable and/or relaxing. Then it became apparent to me that it was time to move on from guided. That was my first experience of "the guru in you" - i just knew it was time to move on - that's how I found AYP. So if you can find a way to get started that you find interesting/pleasurable/tolerable it might make you able to stick it out long enough to see benefits. Have you been reading the AYP lessons? I found them so exciting that I couldn't wait to start. Maybe you will have that experience, too.
That question about the witness, the mind, etc is another thing I experienced and also with the same frustration, feeling the mind go around in circles. Meditation definitely helps reduce those frustrations for me. It eventually makes the mind quiet enough so the answers to questions like that come to you as experiences as well as words in your mind. The things I find interesting and drawn to have taken on expanded/enriched meaning for me that I attribute to the meditation.
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2016 : 8:35:28 PM
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Hello jzwakefield,
Welcome to the forums. Great questions! You have already received good advice. You haven't mentioned what type of practices you are doing. Have you tried AYP? I highly recommend it. All these questions will be answered with consistent practices. It's the field beyond the mind. Without practices and inner silence, there are chances of mind asking the questions and mind answering them. Engage in daily practices and find out for yourself. The Guru is in you.
Sunyata |
Edited by - sunyata on Jan 11 2016 8:58:20 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2016 : 9:36:59 PM
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Welcome JZW!
quote:
That question about the witness, the mind, etc is another thing I experienced and also with the same frustration, feeling the mind go around in circles. Meditation definitely helps reduce those frustrations for me. It eventually makes the mind quiet enough so the answers to questions like that come to you as experiences as well as words in your mind. The things I find interesting and drawn to have taken on expanded/enriched meaning for me that I attribute to the meditation.
As my meditations added up after a few months I had my first witness experience during a stressful event that definately provided a buffer physically and psychologically and then "wow! so that is witnessing!". After two and a half years, the mind has calmed the chatter and clatter and become, at times, the voice of my inner guru. How do I know this? I'm learning through experience of silence and prana, there is no "I" in the knowing.
Stick around a while!
Edit: technically there is an "I" in knowing; just try and catch my drift  |
Edited by - Dogboy on Jan 11 2016 9:40:47 PM |
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jzwakefield
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2016 : 2:07:22 PM
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Thank you for your replies. I have tried the AYP mediations at a basic level. Also breathing and some guided meditations and I'm sticking with it. Maybe I'm being impatient. I suppose my question was theoretical and maybe that isn't possible or helpful to engage in theory.
Having read the Deep Meditation book, I would like to be convinced that the "watcher" people experience isn't just another thought i.e. a product of the mind.
I don't ask in an argumentative spirit but I genuinely am seeking truth. |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 02:09:10 AM
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Hi jzwakefield,
Whether or not the watcher is another thought shouldn't matter if it makes your life far better (and it does). Yogis have had thousands of years to think about it so I think they understand it by now. You can take their word for it.
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 08:26:21 AM
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Hi jzwakefield.
I am actually coming at this from the complete opposite direction as for myself life has always been like this in fact I did not even know others did not live as a witness until coming to AYP and then it was with some surprise I realized there was not only a term for it but that it was an actual " thing " at all in the first place and the practice of Yoga has led to a deepening of the witness state as a way of living.
I do not know if someone who is not already living in the state of a witness will develop this way of living from Yoga Practices or books but from all the reports on this site and others Yoga certainly seems to be the way it comes about automatically.
Since the practice of yoga has served to mature this state with me leading towards I know not where except for theoretically then it does seems reasonable that it can lead one to the witness state as there way of living.
People like Christi here at AYP tell us that there is indeed more and that is good to know because regardless of what people put in books the witness state is not the end all and be all and there are lots of adjustments along the way. To say you arrive at the witness state and are completely satisfied would be a tremendous lie.
This topic is covered over on the AYP Plus Site here pretty well.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/122.html
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/122.html#122.1
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/122.html#122.2
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/122.html#122.3
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/122.html#122.4
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/TopicIn....html#tag221
When I read The Power of Now, which I am doing now what the Author shares seems entirely contrived and forced.
Actually reviewing the book here.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=15899
One should not have to be constantly placing themselves in "THE NOW" or act like a watch watch dog watching ones thoughts and purposely placing gaps in their thought streams.
This is absolutely not the way it works when it comes from yoga it is a byproduct, not something one is constantly reminding themselves to do.
What a torture that must be. I feel sorry for anyone who is torturing themselves this way and hope they will practice AYP instead and see how natural it can be.
Chances are forcing things is going to only further disturb the mind and quite possibly make a person a little nuts or perhaps mentally ill.
The mind has it's place, abusing it, or forcing it to behave will only end in rebellion. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 08:55:36 AM
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Good question it always helpful to engage in theory and it is possible to comprehend but the only real answer to it is you will have to find out by doing but it might take a while or it might come swiftly.
The witness state is a byproduct of or extension of inner silence which does become more developed over time via Advanced Yoga Practices.
If you are coming to this fresh the practice of deep Meditation and other practices will make allot more sense if you not only practice but educate yourself correctly.
The books are good but they are a bit dated as Yogani has added so much more to the topics contained in them on the Plus site.
If you take up a membership on the AYP Plus Site you will have all the most up to date learning resources as well as all of the books free to read online as well as audio and more as everything is linked and referenced together.
You will also be able to receive answers from Yogani and Christi who are allot better at helping people than anyone else with these matters.
The watcher experience or witness is a state not an experience and it becomes your permanent state that continues to deepen and mature over time with practice.
Like I wrote before it certainly seems possible AYP practices will help one who is not already in the witness state become so. This is shared from the perspective of maturing of the witness state as comes from these practices.
Hope this helps. Don't be shy or develop some silly complex about asking questions and discussing these topics.
quote:
Originally posted by jzwakefield
Thank you for your replies. I have tried the AYP mediations at a basic level. Also breathing and some guided meditations and I'm sticking with it. Maybe I'm being impatient. I suppose my question was theoretical and maybe that isn't possible or helpful to engage in theory.
Having read the Deep Meditation book, I would like to be convinced that the "watcher" people experience isn't just another thought i.e. a product of the mind.
I don't ask in an argumentative spirit but I genuinely am seeking truth.
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 09:18:24 AM
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Hi jzw,
The watcher is real and not just a thought in the mind, but it takes a while to loosen the identification with the mind. So for someone who is starting out, if he or she was to look for it or try to be it, it could just be a mind story. Yoga practices lead to being the watcher and beyond. After a while with practices, you will be able to verify it with your experience.
If you read the AYP lessons, it'll make more sense. Yogani uses the term non- relational self-inquiry for mind looking at mind. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 10:25:48 AM
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Hi So-Hi,
I don't think the books are a bit outdated. I think the small individual books are simple and easy to follow. It is us who complicate them.. Even the AYP lesson books 1 and 2 are worth purchasing.
As for the plus site, I agree with Sey's post about different voices. How wonderful it is to hear things from different perspectives. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 10:37:34 AM
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| One more thing...my 11 yr. old calls the witness, watcher a " security camera", mainly in dreams but sometimes in daily life. I like it! He may end up being my Guru. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 11:34:28 AM
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Hi Lalow33 by comparison with the plus site the books are a bit outdated in the sense that they are static at the time of publication where as the plus site not only has the most up to date teachings of Yogani but has more content on every lesson and active guidance from Yogani and Christi on every topic.
Sorry but I do not remember if you are on the plus site. so I will explain a bit how it works.
Lets say you are going through the lessons on deep meditation on the plus site and there is a specific point of interest Yogni has noticed people having difficulties with over the years you will find he has expertly linked that specific point to additional content on the plus site. The link will not only take you to the specific section of the book but also the newly updated lessons.
In addition to that Yogani and Christi are both actively participating with the plus members in the forums and will provide links during conversation that help tie the information together.
Here on the free site you may read a lesson or you may buy lesson books 1 and 2 but you are not getting all of it as Yogani is constantly updating the lesson on the plus site. The exact term is Lesson Additions and expanded main lessons.
Here is a link I think everyone can view to get a better idea.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/MainDirectory.html
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Edited by - So-Hi on Jan 13 2016 11:47:22 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 12:02:03 PM
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| Yes, I'm on the plus site. I still think the books are worth purchasing. I know that Christi and Yogani are on the plus site. There are many people on that site for support in all things related to Yoga. Maybe you don't agree. I've been on this web page for quite sometime. You can get good advice from other practioners. Heck, your cat is saying, "I am!" My kids can give me good advice as well. |
Edited by - lalow33 on Jan 13 2016 12:03:31 PM |
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jzwakefield
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 12:23:37 PM
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Thank you all for your help with this. I didn't know there was a plus site. I will check it out.
Re the Power of Now. Is it the general consensus that this book is not helpful? As someone new it seemed to be pretty powerful to me. I don't want to be misled and I know E Tolle is a very wealth and controversial figure. Nonetheless I could relate to a huge amount of what he said was wrong with the human existence today. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 1:31:49 PM
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| I think the general consensus here is that most are in favor of Tolle, I am new to his writings and skeptical of most everything in the arena he sells in, so I would say this is one you have to decide on your own. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 1:33:15 PM
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Hi Lalow33 yep we agree, so does the cat but you have the ownership backwards.  |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 4:47:24 PM
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| What!!? The cat knows the truth. Sometimes the kids know the truth. The strange store clerk can give you the truth. It's weird how it happens. What do I have backwards? |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 5:47:31 PM
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You refereed to the cat as your cat emplying I own the cat or the cat is mine. That is the backwards part, no one owns a cat they pick their people and own you.
Lets see I buy the food, feed the cat scoop the litter box keep a roof over her head and go to work.
She lays around all day, plays with toys, gets groomed, tells me to feed her when she is ready, gets taken to the vet for regular check ups, and tells us when we go to bed, tells me when she wants attention and then bites the heck out of me if I don't pay attention to when she is done getting petted and on top of all that somehow she has got us convinced it makes us happy to spoil her rotten with love and give into her purs and looks when she wants treats
Hmmm seems like someone else is in charge and it sure isn't me. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 8:42:00 PM
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To heck with heaven, I want to come back as a cat!  |
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Jayleno214
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 10:05:20 PM
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Its real, and there is more.
And its worth it.
What the techniques here do is universally effective. Its the subject of every book that intends to uplift the human condition. You can write a book yourself with a new fresh perspective (yours) in as little as 5 years. Not that you'd reach the end then. |
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jzwakefield
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2016 : 09:05:53 AM
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As far as the Power of Now is concerned. I'm taking from it what I find helpful and leaving the rest. In truth I found it to be profound, moving, and deeply wise with a huge amount to say about my spiritual condition. I got massive identification with it in almost every page. I'm a bit reserved about Tolle's celebrity status TBH and I'm surprised that anyone feels they can speak with such certainty about the future of the planet as he appears to however, I have found the book and his teaching of tremendous help to me so far.
I'm a bit confused as you will probable be able to discern but I will keep plodding on trying to seek a relationship with God as I understand ( or fail to understand ) Him. |
Edited by - jzwakefield on Jan 14 2016 09:58:56 AM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2016 : 10:40:13 AM
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For me the book also was helpful jzwakefield....it was my first book about spirituality and it opened a whole new perspective for me. After this book I found many more books, teachers and yoga as a practice.
We all are unique and have to find our own path. Books, teachers, guru's, let's take whatever we can use on our way to the "Guru in you".
I love Osho, and there is also a lot to say about him, I started to read his books again this week and still love him. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 01:21:32 AM
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Oh, I love Osho too. The Power of Now - not so much. I could never get past the first couple of pages. The thing is that there are different levels of understanding - same with the bible and other scriptures. There is an intellectual understanding which, when the writing (or speech)is rational and logical, finds favour with beginners, which is very good as it sets people off on the search for deeper truths; and deeper understandings which occur when one is Conscious i.e. Witness is active. And more layers of understanding when witness has merged with the flow (truly the Power of Now) and so we keep peeling off onion layers
My two cents
Sey |
Edited by - SeySorciere on Jan 15 2016 01:23:33 AM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 03:46:09 AM
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Maybe you are right Sey, that "Power of Now" is very helpful to begin with. I never pick it up again, but still I know it was important to me to open up
Osho I can read alway's, he is like a warm bath to me |
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jzwakefield
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 11:39:09 AM
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I'm not getting this at all. I had no idea who Osho was but a google search hasn't inspired me
This is all very depressing and confusing TBH. I'm trying to find something spiritual in these peoples' teachings but I can't divorce what they say from how they live. 
Yogani seems like a genuinely good and gentle and honest person so I will probably stick to his basic approach and the bits I related to from Power of Now.
Anyway, thank you to you for trying to help and I wish you all well in your journey |
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Basic question
