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microcosm
102 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 27 2015 : 1:55:38 PM
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Why, after stream entry there are at most seven rebirths? What's so special about this particular integer. Seems arbitrary  |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2015 : 08:41:31 AM
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Hi,
I have heard that in Theravada Buddhism the stream enterer attains liberation in at most 7 lives, and he/she is not reborn in any plane lower than human. I guess this is what Buddha said. He would tell you to check for yourself - and maybe attain liberation sooner.  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2015 : 10:54:15 AM
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Hi Microcosm,
In the Buddha's day, 7 was a bit of a magic number. There were a few other magic numbers: The four noble truths, the seven factors of enlightenment, the eight-fold noble path, the ten virtues (paramitas) and so on. Maybe the Buddha had some special knowledge, whereby he knew that after stream entry (sotapanna), someone could not be reborn more than seven times? Or maybe he was using the special number?
Whichever way, I am sure it is not worth loosing sleep over.
Christi |
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microcosm
102 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2015 : 7:57:02 PM
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| Thank you Blanche and Christi. I sometimes feel like a child in the fog regarding some aspects of the Theravada tradition :) |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2015 : 01:42:54 AM
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Now I feel ignorant
What is "stream entry"?
Sey  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2015 : 7:40:31 PM
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Hi Sey,
Stream entry (sotapanna) is a stage on the path described by the Buddha, whereby someone has glimpsed and tasted the truth. It is accompanied by the falling away of three barriers (fetters) to awakening: Self-view, attachment to rights and rituals and doubt about the spiritual path.
It is called stream entry because the spiritual path is said to be a stream leading to liberation. Someone who reaches this stage is said to be a stream-enterer.
Welcome to the river!
Christi |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2015 : 10:37:34 PM
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There's a Buddhist parable I've heard that is related to the topic.
An enthusiastic monk walked up to the Buddha and asked: "How many lifetimes will it take to attain enlightenment?" The Buddha pointed to a big tree nearby and said: "Count the leaves on that tree. It will take that many lifetimes." The monk was immediately flabbergasted and walked off in complete disillusionment.
A little while later, another monk approached the Buddha and asked: "How many lifetimes will it take to attain enlightenment?" Once again, the Noble One pointed to the same tree and told him it would take as many leaves as could be counted on the tree. The monk quickly exclaimed: "That's all?!" Like lightning, enlightenment struck the monk at that exact moment, and he walked off, in complete satisfaction.
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Apkallu
France
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2016 : 11:55:32 AM
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| Shall we consider ourselves being at least stream-winners by doing AYP ? |
Edited by - Apkallu on Sep 06 2016 12:00:58 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2016 : 6:39:59 PM
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Hi Apkallu,
In the Buddhist Theravada tradition, stream-entry is quite an advanced level.
How many can say that they have no doubt at all about the spiritual path, or that no doubt will arise in the future? How many can say that they have glimpsed the truth?
The first fetter, "self-view", refers to the perception of the self as a separate, phenomenal entity.
Stream entry is the first of the four stages of enlightenment in the Buddhist Theravada tradition. So it isn't the same as taking up AYP practice. But it is something that comes with AYP practice.
The second stage of enlightenment is referred to a "once returner". At this stage "desire of the senses" and "ill will" have been greatly diminished. In the third stage (non-returner), they have been eliminated all together. At this stage we experience only love and compassion towards others and see them as our own Self.
The final stage is that of Arahat. In this stage the last five fetters fall away: Craving for worldly prosperity, craving for rebirth in one of the higher worlds, conceit, restlessness and ignorance (avidya).
At the third stage, the practitioner can no longer be reborn into this world, but will be reborn into one of the heavens and will attain enlightenment there. At the stage of Arahat (4th and final stage), no rebirth is necessary and the practitioner attains enlightenment in this lifetime.
It is a different view of enlightenment milestones than that found in AYP and is based mostly on what falls away, rather than on what new conditions arise on the path.
Christi
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2016 : 7:10:41 PM
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| From my understanding, women can not become enlightened; we'd have to be reborn into a man in this tradition. Not sure if a woman could be labeled as stream-entry. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2016 : 7:55:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
From my understanding, women can not become enlightened; we'd have to be reborn into a man in this tradition. Not sure if a woman could be labeled as stream-entry.
Hi Lalow,
I would consider this as an ignorance of the person who said this. This is a false spiritual belief.
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2016 : 01:11:50 AM
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quote:
Shall we consider ourselves being at least stream-winners by doing AYP ?
AYP is the boat that helps you cross the stream.
Moderator note: Edited by moderators for formatting only.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2016 : 4:58:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
From my understanding, women can not become enlightened; we'd have to be reborn into a man in this tradition. Not sure if a woman could be labeled as stream-entry.
Hi Lalow,
This is not something I have ever heard of. The Buddhist scriptures actually point to the opposite. The Buddha is recorded as saying:
"Women, Ananda, having gone forth, are able to realize the fruit of stream-attainment or the fruit of once-returning or the fruit of non-returning or Arahantship."
The Buddha also spoke of many awakened female practitioners.
Within the Theravada Buddhist tradition as a whole, there is no notion that I am aware of, that women cannot attain enlightenment.
Within Mahayana Buddhism, which is a more ornate and colourful form of religion, women can become nuns, as they can in the Theravada tradition, and are often portrayed as Bodhisattvas (enlightened people who take re-birth for the good of the world) and as Godesses.
Many people write things though, and many do so in the name of one religion or another. So it is possible that you have read something, written by someone who had a very unenlightened (excuse the pun) view of women and who did so in the name of Buddhism.
The easiest thing when that happens is to take the wheat and leave the chaff. Or as Jesus used to say: "Shake the dust off your feet" and carry on.
Christi
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2016 : 6:37:39 PM
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I heard this from a talk from a British monk in Thailand who practiced the Forest Tradition. (He said he was shocked to read it). It's not like I just read a blog on the Internet. Anyway, I could be wrong. Sounds like that's not the overall view.
As for stream-entry, I'm not sure how you would know. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2016 : 6:47:57 PM
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Hi Lalow,
I have never seen anything attributed to the Buddha, which says that women cannot become enlightened.
As I say, it is quite possible that someone else made this remark and this is what the monk read?
Maybe he had been reading a blog on the internet?
In 5th century BCE India, views of women, and their place in society, were not especially advanced, and so it is possible (and quite likely) that some people held views like this.
With stream entry, you would know if you had reached that stage. You would not have any doubt.
If doubt is there, that is not it.
Christi |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2016 : 6:58:15 PM
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I'm glad I said something, so you could correct me. I enjoy your sense of humor.lol. Monks reading Internet blogs.
Sometimes, I wonder what practices would look like if women made them, but that's a whole different topic. Can you point me to the writings of the Enlightened Theravada Buddhist women?
Or what women are written about in the Pali cannon as being enlightened? |
Edited by - lalow33 on Sep 10 2016 7:14:18 PM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2016 : 07:07:22 AM
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| i have never seen this myself ,but one of the greatest statues of buddha is an empty meditation seat make of this what you will ,but for me the one thats sits has no gender only a desire to know the truth. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2016 : 7:28:28 PM
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Hi Lalow,
quote:
Sometimes, I wonder what practices would look like if women made them, but that's a whole different topic.
I have had two female yoga teachers over the years. Interestingly, they both taught practices similar to AYP, a mixture of mantra meditation and visualisation practices, involving the central channel. They also taught service to others and devotion (bhakti yoga). There is actually very little difference between male teachers and female teachers, once a teacher reaches a certain point. This is because, through the practice of yoga, identification is transcended, including identification with the body and with gender. So people no longer see themselves as either a man or a woman but as being beyond both these forms of identification.
The Soma Sutra (Samyutta Nikaya 5.2), describes a Buddhist nun called Soma, as stating: "Anyone who thinks 'I'm a woman' or 'a man' or 'I am anything at all?' ; that is who Mara is fit to address".
The word Mara means "death" and in Buddhism is personified, and represents the qualities of non-enlightenment. One who Mara is "not fit to address", would be an enlightened person.
quote:
Can you point me to the writings of the Enlightened Theravada Buddhist women?
Or what women are written about in the Pali cannon as being enlightened?
I don't know if any specific women are named by the Buddha as being enlightened in the Pali cannon? The line where the Buddha talks about enlightened women, comes from the Majjhima Nikaya and is in Sutta 73:8
A questioner asked (paraphrased):
"is there even one female monastic who is fully enlightened?"
The Buddha responded:
"There are not only one hundred... or five hundred, but far more nuns (bhikkunis), my disciples, who by realizing for themselves, with direct knowledge, here and now, enter upon and abide in, the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom, that are taintless..."
Christi |
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