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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 10:34:19 AM
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Permission to use Siddhas is a very interesting topic that I would like to bring to AYP.
Now I think there are two areas of use.
The first area is in formal practice with another person. Of course I believe in asking permission before doing anything in this situation.
The second area is those common moments around us that happen every day.
Would you send "Peace, Love, Confidence" to a young girl nervous on stage for the first time? What about a coworker scared to death speaking in a meeting?
I know some people will say that no matter the situation you must always ask permission. In the areas I just mention like with a coworker I will admit I don't ask for permission. I just send energy.
What if you went to a group meditation and you know that you could take everyone there to deeper levels of meditation. They would never know it was you but you could help them. Would it be okay?
Any thoughts? |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 12:59:35 PM
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The first scenario of sending energy and allowing energy to do what it must is fine.
The second scenario, that of the group meditation, is borderline and falls under the skillset of shaktipat. We in AYP know all about shaktipat and its conotations with ego, etc. right? Anyway each individual in a group meditation can only handle so much purification according to how his/her nervous system is evolving. Guidance and encouragement to maintain practices should spur participants to higher levels. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 1:20:45 PM
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Hi Jonesboy,
I think you are referring to Siddhis not Siddhas. Agree with jusmail. In any situation, when "I" is doing the healing or taking everyone to a deeper level there is something else involved. This is the reason for the caution in all yoga practices regarding Siddhis. In AYP, we release it in Samyama and let the divine handle the details.
Sunyata |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 1:42:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jusmail
The first scenario of sending energy and allowing energy to do what it must is fine.
The second scenario, that of the group meditation, is borderline and falls under the skillset of shaktipat. We in AYP know all about shaktipat and its conotations with ego, etc. right? Anyway each individual in a group meditation can only handle so much purification according to how his/her nervous system is evolving. Guidance and encouragement to maintain practices should spur participants to higher levels.
Thank you so much for your comments.
I would say that shaktipat has nothing to do with ego. Yes one can get a big ego saying look how powerful I am but when you get to a certain point everyone will have that ability. A caution like it is to be ignored is not the right path.
I would say that shaktipat is a sending of energy and yes you can overload someone but the method I mention is more of taking consciousness down levels and it not really a energy practice that would lead to overloading. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 1:48:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
Hi Jonesboy,
I think you are referring to Siddhis not Siddhas. Agree with jusmail. In any situation, when "I" is doing the healing or taking everyone to a deeper level there is something else involved. This is the reason for the caution in all yoga practices regarding Siddhis. In AYP, we release it in Samyama and let the divine handle the details.
Sunyata
Hi Sunyata,
You are right.. I messed up with the Siddhis vs Siddhas.
Would not the desire to help another person come from Compassion? Why is ego have to be involved? If you know you can help people why would you not?
Is not AYP about compassion and helping others? Would having the ability to send energy to others just be a continued extension of that?
I would also like to say I completely... totally disagree with the concept that Samyama is morally adjusting.
How is that possible? Samyama is dropping intent into silence. Are you really saying that someone will change your intent? Is that not judgement? Who is judging your intent? |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 14 2015 2:23:01 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 2:27:25 PM
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The intent of the discussion isn't about AYP or non AYP practices.
I really just wanted to talk about the morality of working with others either with their permission or not.
The topic isn't about if a certain practice will lead to someone overloading or not. I can understand where that would be a concern and is a valid topic of consideration.
Within AYP terms.. Would it be okay to do Samyama on someone without their permission? |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 2:28:29 PM
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I totally agree with you- compassion is a really good quality. Yes, AYP is about helping the humanity .
For example, if I see a car is about to hit a person crossing the street , I would jump and try to pull that person out of the harm’s way because that’s the right action.
The other example, when people are going through some situations (suffering), releasing prayers in silence seems to be they way to go than directing energy.
Are the organs of your body functioning at your will? They are happening on their own. Silence is where this creation arises from including the suffering and even the compassion one feels. That’s why they say an individual never gets enlightened. All is happening with divine’s will and surrendering to that feels right.
If through the same silence-seasons are changing, births and deaths are happening, the solar system is functioning in harmony, we are writing in this forum. Why wouldn’t one think Samyama is morally adjusting? Also, why would one think that the suffering is not right for a certain individual. Dropping it in silence and letting "that" decide what is best for that individual, since it's already doing everything else.
Sunyata
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Edited by - sunyata on Oct 14 2015 2:30:51 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 2:34:55 PM
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What is "that" that is deciding? 
I love you Sunyata but Saturn going around the Sun has nothing to do with yours or my morality.
Energy is just energy. There is positive and negative energy. There is nobody judging the negative energy that is out there turning it into rainbows. There are negative entities which are negative energy.
If there are negative beings/energy that is not being morally adjusted then why would your intent be? Would the effects of your desires/wants/needs not be a lesson one would need to learn?
Energy again is just energy.. it is our intent that is important. Hopefully when someone reaches the level of being able to send energy in such a manner they have an open heart.
I can tell you that is not always the case.
I think it is a major mistake to think you can send negative energy to someone and think the universe will change it to good stuff for you. It won't, you will just be hurting the ones you are sending it to is all.
With regard to your story of someone suffering and maybe they need to.
If you saw a man starving on the side of the road and you are walking by him with a basket filled with bread. Would you not offer him a loaf? Or would you walk on by with the knowledge that he has some lesson to learn?
I am saying offer the bread. |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 14 2015 2:37:24 PM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 2:42:09 PM
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I love you too, Jonesboy.
Silence is. Both Negative and Positive energy are rising from it and so is the Saturn going around the sun. Are prayers negative?
If people feel uplifted in your presence,it's the silence they are feeling through you which is automatic. But if one is intentionally directing energy it's different.
Sunyata
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 2:52:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
I love you too, Jonesboy.
Silence is. Both Negative and Positive energy are rising from it and so is the Saturn going around the sun. Are prayers negative?
If people feel uplifted in your presence,it's the silence they are feeling through you which is automatic. But if one is intentionally directing energy it's different.
Sunyata
Very nice Sunyata
You are right all "things" arise from silence both positive and negative.
Prayers can be both positive and negative. Again it all goes back to intent.
If people feel uplifted in your presence,it's the silence they are feeling through you which is automatic. But if one is intentionally directing energy it's different.
It is a different experience you are correct. An advanced persons presence can help silence the mind of those around them among other things. What it normally doesn't do is really bring people to higher levels of consciousness. Now we do tend to join together if you are in a group and naturally start to go deeper but we are talking about normal people.
With directed energy one normally would take a person deeper than what your presence alone can do. Your presence is what is allowing for one not to overload and progress faster. It is providing the space for the person to let go.
But what I have really been talking about is just a sending of energy to help quite the nervous/upset mind of a stranger. |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 14 2015 2:54:15 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 3:02:02 PM
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When stillness in action is in full flow, there is no need for the asking or granting of permission. Permission is an intermediary stage at best, and a co-dependent trap at worst. Sure, sometimes the formality is useful and polite, but in a genuine, intimate relationship, permission is not the hinge point. The hinge point is silent knowingness and an outpouring of divine love.
We don't have to ask: May I shower you with divine love? It's not like a business contract that requires signatures and consent. It's much better than that. It happens automatically, and without much pride of authorship. It is a dance in which all parties concerned are fully aware and transparent with their intentions. It is perfect rhythm and harmony. It is ecstatic bliss. It is us. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 14 2015 3:08:16 PM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 3:03:04 PM
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quote:
But what I have really been talking about is just a sending of energy to help quite the nervous/upset mind of a stranger.
My answer is the same. Gotta go pick up the kids. Someone else in the forum may be able to give you the answer you are looking for.
Also, may be "the nervous/upset mind of the stranger" will lead that stranger someday in search of their true nature.
Nice talking with you as always.
Sunyata |
Edited by - sunyata on Oct 14 2015 3:14:50 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 3:43:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
When stillness in action is in full flow, there is no need for the asking or granting of permission. Permission is an intermediary stage at best, and a co-dependent trap at worst. Sure, sometimes the formality is useful and polite, but in a genuine, intimate relationship, permission is not the hinge point. The hinge point is silent knowingness and an outpouring of divine love.
We don't have to ask: May I shower you with divine love? It's not like a business contract that requires signatures and consent. It's much better than that. It happens automatically, and without much pride of authorship. It is a dance in which all parties concerned are fully aware and transparent with their intentions. It is perfect rhythm and harmony. It is ecstatic bliss. It is us.
Thank you Bodhi for you nice reply.
Let me ask you then. What about a stranger?
Your comments are right on with an intimate relationship but what about the coworker who is scared to death of public speaking?
Is that okay to just send energy to try to calm the nerves of a coworker like that? |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 14 2015 3:45:53 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 3:45:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
I just send energy.
There is a general and seemingly never questioned assumption that energy is what is missing/required. Healers send energy, well-wishers send energy, gurus send energy etc. I confess I'm not sure energy is what is missing. Energy is everywhere. We are it. Many of us here can easily do enough yoga to get loaded with more energy than we can handle. But if the obstructions are still there, if the energy gets bogged down or is fighting itself, what good is more energy going to be?
It seems to me what we really want to do is to dissolve obstructions/whatever it is that stops the energy flowing. And when we're talking about removing obstructions in others, that leads, I think, to issues around choice and free will, doesn't it?
Releasing prayers and good wishes in silence, yes. Sending energy to people? Not sure about that. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Oct 14 2015 3:55:47 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 4:23:53 PM
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Like BlueRC said, it's not about sending energy, per se. It's about releasing well wishes into stillness, and letting stillness take care of the job. That is active surrender.
Sending energy and trying to intermingle with someone else's aura is not the same thing. If you have an anxiety-ridden co-worker, pick up their name and release it into stillness. You don't need to ask their permission to do that, because samyama is morally self-regulating. There is a buffer that will filter the intention appropriately. Trying to bypass or manipulate the buffers is where we get into trouble. You will get burned...every...single...time (if not sooner, then later).
With samyama and self-pacing, there is no burn-out or entanglement. Much cleaner, much smoother. Pure bliss consciousness. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 14 2015 4:24:47 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 4:31:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
I just send energy.
There is a general and seemingly never questioned assumption that energy is what is missing/required. Healers send energy, well-wishers send energy, gurus send energy etc. I confess I'm not sure energy is what is missing. Energy is everywhere. We are it. Many of us here can easily do enough yoga to get loaded with more energy than we can handle. But if the obstructions are still there, if the energy gets bogged down or is fighting itself, what good is more energy going to be?
It seems to me what we really want to do is to dissolve obstructions/whatever it is that stops the energy flowing. And when we're talking about removing obstructions in others, that leads, I think, to issues around choice and free will, doesn't it?
Releasing prayers and good wishes in silence, yes. Sending energy to people? Not sure about that.
Hi Blue great comments!
If you don't mind I am going to take this in parts from my perspective if you don't mind.
quote:
"I just send energy."
There is a general and seemingly never questioned assumption that energy is what is missing/required. Healers send energy, well-wishers send energy, gurus send energy etc. I confess I'm not sure energy is what is missing. Energy is everywhere. We are it. Many of us here can easily do enough yoga to get loaded with more energy than we can handle. But if the obstructions are still there, if the energy gets bogged down or is fighting itself, what good is more energy going to be?
You are right Blue that all "things" are energy. Within Yoga an excellent example would be Prana, Kundalini and Universal Consciousness. They are all the same thing but as we progress we also seem to progress along that understanding. Better said we realize that we are that.
You are right that if you don't know what you are doing and sending someone energy that has lots of kundalini issues may not be the best idea. That is where responsibility comes in to play if you are going to be working with such a person.
Without going into to much detail. One's presence can help provide the space, silence to let go of obstructions. If one is of sufficient depth one would also have the ability to not only send but receive energy. The receiving of energy along with ones presence allows for someone to let go of said attachments.
The importance of energy with say attaining silence is very important. Yogani talks about in the lessons how we often notice we are gone, passed out but not asleep.
What is happening there?
We are hitting new depth of silence but we don't have the energy to sustain it. It is energy that helps us maintain as well as grow to new levels.
quote:
It seems to me what we really want to do is to dissolve obstructions/whatever it is that stops the energy flowing. And when we're talking about removing obstructions in others, that leads, I think, to issues around choice and free will, doesn't it?
Not sure where you are going with this to be honest.
If I am walking by a stranger and want to send love no, I am not trying to help them with obstructions. Just sending comfort.
If I am working with someone then they are aware of what we are doing and of course free will is in place. Now if I am doing things to people and they don't know that is helping them release obstructions... Yes :) that is a tricky subject!
quote:
Releasing prayers and good wishes in silence, yes. Sending energy to people? Not sure about that.
If you are directing those good wishes to a person. If you are praying for the welfare of a person you are sending energy to that person. You can play the game that you dropped it into silence but it is a sending of intent. There really is no difference. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 4:38:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Like BlueRC said, it's not about sending energy, per se. It's about releasing well wishes into stillness, and letting stillness take care of the job. That is active surrender.
Sending energy and trying to intermingle with someone else's aura is not the same thing. If you have an anxiety-ridden co-worker, pick up their name and release it into stillness. You don't need to ask their permission to do that, because samyama is morally self-regulating. There is a buffer that will filter the intention appropriately. Trying to bypass or manipulate the buffers is where we get into trouble. You will get burned...every...single...time (if not sooner, then later).
With samyama and self-pacing, there is no burn-out or entanglement. Much cleaner, much smoother. Pure bliss consciousness.
There is no regulating entity out there making your energy morally clean for someone else.
All you did was provide an example of a method for sending energy.
Not trying to cause issues but please show me a reference anywhere outside of AYP that says any method is self regulating.
That is a very dangerous concept if you ask me. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Oct 14 2015 6:17:11 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 5:41:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
It seems to me what we really want to do is to dissolve obstructions/whatever it is that stops the energy flowing. And when we're talking about removing obstructions in others, that leads, I think, to issues around choice and free will, doesn't it?
Not sure where you are going with this to be honest.
What I'm saying is that the energy you're sending them may very well go where their own energy is going - being worn away in infighting and hitting obstructions. Till that person has changed the way they are thinking/acting (i.e. ironed out the obstructions), all energy will go through the same dysfunctional loops. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 5:46:08 PM
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Once again, BlueRC hits the nail on the head. Just to springboard off her comments...
Stillness is Self, jonesboy. That's the regulating entity.
When effort becomes effortlessness, enlightenment is becoming actively achieved. When the effort is constrained to probing, prying, and perversely penetrating someone else, that is not stillness in action, but rather a lower, un-evolved vibration.
Consider the absurdity of this question: "Do I have your permission to give you a gift?" That's absurd, right? When a gift is given freely, you don't have to worry about how the recipient takes it. They might love it. They might throw it away in the trash immediately. It's their choice.
With your modality of "sending energy", you're probably secretly looking for some kind of kickback or reward, which is understandable. We all want reciprocity. But the best reciprocity is giving without expectation of return (including credit or acknowledgement). |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 14 2015 5:47:12 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 7:01:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
It seems to me what we really want to do is to dissolve obstructions/whatever it is that stops the energy flowing. And when we're talking about removing obstructions in others, that leads, I think, to issues around choice and free will, doesn't it?
Not sure where you are going with this to be honest.
What I'm saying is that the energy you're sending them may very well go where their own energy is going - being worn away in infighting and hitting obstructions. Till that person has changed the way they are thinking/acting (i.e. ironed out the obstructions), all energy will go through the same dysfunctional loops.
Hi Blue and thank you very much for that clarification.
We can think of an obstruction in a couple of different ways. The first is the mental way. The thought.
The method I prefer is working with the emotional body. Every emotional upset/obstruction has a corresponding energetic feel to it. It is learning to reside in that energetic feeling that helps to integrate the issue.
What we are upset about right now may just be a symptom of something much older. That is why we dismiss the thought and work with the feeling/energy.
The Presence Process is an excellent manual on working like this in a step by step manner.
We only feel the energy at any stage if it is hitting obstructions.
The tighter we hold on to an issue the more the energy can begin to hurt a person. That is why we see so many people with kundalini issues. They are holding onto something.. often fear.
It is not loops of energy within someones system or a way of thinking that needs to change.
You do bring up a good point about responsibility for the results if someone was to send energy.
Do you think it is always dangerous? Is this a situation you think everyone is always having? |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 7:27:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Once again, BlueRC hits the nail on the head. Just to springboard off her comments...
Stillness is Self, jonesboy. That's the regulating entity.
Hi Bodhi
When does this stillness of Self become self regulating? Is it only through samyama that this occurrence happens?
Telling people that to take your anger at a person and say their name and drop it into silence with the intent of reaching the other person will not send joy to the other person.
It will send anger, negative energy.
Now taking the anger you feel towards a person and dropping it into silence is a great technique for learning to let go of that thought.
See the difference?
quote:
When effort becomes effortlessness, enlightenment is becoming actively achieved. When the effort is constrained to probing, prying, and perversely penetrating someone else, that is not stillness in action, but rather a lower, un-evolved vibration.
Where has anyone said they are invading anyone in some perverse manner?
Helping to calm a mind that is shaking in fear of public speaking I would argue comes from an open heart filled with compassion. Not sure where you are going with the rest of that.
quote:
Consider the absurdity of this question: "Do I have your permission to give you a gift?" That's absurd, right? When a gift is given freely, you don't have to worry about how the recipient takes it. They might love it. They might throw it away in the trash immediately. It's their choice.
 It might be a gift to you but not to them. Hence the topic of the thread. The gift is in the giving but even so.. There are times when it would be best to ask. For instance:
If one could do the following to introduce another to silence. I might think it is a gift but if unasked for... maybe not as welcome
3.39 By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body.
(bandha karana shaithilyat prachara samvedanat cha chittasya para sharira aveshah)
[Note: In some renditions this is sutra 3.37 or 3.38]
bandha = bondage, attachment
karana = cause
shaithilyat = relaxation, letting go, loosening
prachara = passages, means of going forth, moving through
samvedanat = by knowledge of
cha = and
chittasya = of the consciousness of the mind-field
para = another, other
sharira = body
aveshah = entering into
Entering another body: By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body. The advanced yogi may use this power to operate through another body in service of others, such as for guiding sincere students of meditation.
Attainments and obstacles: As with the other subtle experiences this is seen to be both an attainment and an obstacle, and is set aside (3.38) with non-attachment (1.15).
quote:
With your modality of "sending energy", you're probably secretly looking for some kind of kickback or reward, which is understandable. We all want reciprocity. But the best reciprocity is giving without expectation of return (including credit or acknowledgement).
I have to say I find this pretty rude.
You don't know me. You have never felt my presence nor do you know what it is I do when I work with people.
Some really interesting projections... thank you.
I did not want this topic to be about me and sending energy. The topic is about the morality of doing so.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 8:26:23 PM
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Hey, it takes one to know one, know what I mean? I've dabbled in a bunch of stuff, including the energy work you're referencing, so I'm speaking from experience. I'm no saint, but I have learned a little bit about what works, and what doesn't. (Note: I am not a shining beacon of divine love either, but at best, a faint flicker, and a novice yogi to boot).
I'd rather be a little rude than tell you some plastic, artificial, cotton-candy nonsense. I'm just shooting straight, man. A little tough love never hurt.
Even so, it's your trip, and your choices. I support free will. I'm merely sticking within the parameters of AYP and testifying to the validity of the practices I've put in motion for the past 5 years. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 11:15:03 PM
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Hi Jonesboy,
if it comes from your heart, just send the good vibe. If you must think very hard about it, just relax. Your heart will tell if it is good or not.
Other than that, why the worry, share your peace, joy and love.
Peace and happy sharing :) |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2015 : 12:16:48 AM
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Hi bodhi,
No I would say you have no idea what type of energy work it is I do. You have no idea what my interactions are like with others .
You are free to ask anyone I have ever worked with to help with your opinion. Or you can continue to make things up.
You know there was a point in my current position when I didn't like my boss. You know the type of dislike where whenever I would think of him it was not with happy thoughts. Now whenever he would look at me or when we talked I was always nice and polite.
He didn't like me either and everyone knew it.
Around this time I started to post here about my ego. I went through TPP and worked with my thoughts using Loving What Is and Real Love.
After all of these powerful lessons I noticed that when I was thinking negative thoughts about people I received negative back.
I was sending energy to another person and it was impacting our relationship. It is something we are all doing.
It doesn't matter if you are praying, doing samyama or directly sending with more focused intent. It is all the same energy Bodhi. it is all light.
The topic of discussion of the thread was about the morality of sending energy to help others.
You are sending it already with your thoughts and judgement of others. People can feel the energy in a persons post for instance.
If it was felt in a negative manner it would be a shared obstruction. In order to integrate I need to work on myself and my emotional body.
Judgements of the person making me feel the energy is just my attachments. It shows me where I need to work on myself.
I hope this helps,
Tom |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2015 : 01:05:07 AM
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Fair enough, Tom! I'm rooting for you.  |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2015 : 04:36:16 AM
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Interesting topic Tom!
quote:
The topic of discussion of the thread was about the morality of sending energy to help others.
You are sending it already with your thoughts and judgement of others. People can feel the energy in a persons post for instance.
If it was felt in a negative manner it would be a shared obstruction. In order to integrate I need to work on myself and my emotional body.
Judgements of the person making me feel the energy is just my attachments. It shows me where I need to work on myself
After reading your and the other posts, I have the feeling that you came in this quote to your conclusion.
My opinion for what it is worth, as long there is an I who is doing the action, there is the feeling inside that something has to be changed, most of the time because it reminds us to our own personal issues. Nothing wrong with good intentions and samyama, it helps to open our own heart, become more and more aware of love for everyone around.
Stilness has no personal issues, stillness in action is, sends out love energy in stillness.....which will be picked up by everyone around. It is not an action, it happens.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this.
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Siddhis and Permission from Others
