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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 12 2015 : 5:54:17 PM
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Hello everyone,
I started meditating a few years ago (Vo-vi meditation) and gently I have changed the practice to be more suitable for my body. I know a lot of you don't agree with this idea, but I'm following Krishnamurti's teachings and they fit me like a glove. 
While trying to meditate, or lets put it straight while trying to relax my entire body, I have noticed that after a few minutes of breathing in a certain matter, I’m getting a “burning sensation” of needing to stretch my muscle, like most normal people in the morning. The sensation is only for stretch, but is 10 times greater then the sensation of stretching in the morning.
I’d like to mention that this sensation cannot be stopped in any ways, unless I end up stretching intensely. I tried multiple times (over 6 months now) to get over it, but it turned out that the more I stay in that state, the more painful it becomes.
I remember one night I was trying to get over that state, and somehow my brain merely shut of the connection with my scheletic muscles (some sort of sleep paralysis) and I was able somehow bypass it, and I found myself on the other side of me, looking at me from the inside out (using the internal/third eye). I was able to see/feel all my nerve ends pulsating at an enormous speed. I studied Gurdjieff’s teachings as well and I realized all those activities are caused by the moving center or the instinctive one.
I would also want to make a remark and say that I’m not anxious and I was never diagnosed with any ill particularly mental or nervous system disease.
With that being said, have anyone of you ever encountered/experienced such sensation or something similar, and if so, how can one deal/approach it in order to go over it?
If the description is not clear enough please ask and I will try to reformulate what I described above.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
By the way, you guys are a great community with a lot of useful advices and ideas and I really appreciate everyone’s effort. |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2015 : 7:14:52 PM
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| Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you are entering the automatic yoga stage. The solution is of course to surrender. You have also had glimpses of the witness stage (witnessing your body from outside). |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2015 : 11:55:20 PM
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Welcome Krisandru
There is a good chance this is a temporary state from changes in your neurobiology, and as Jusmail suggests, something to observe and not fight. I am frequently and automatically checking my balance and posture, scanning my interior world, the sensations, occasional unusual symptoms, all because my yoga practice is bearing fruit and requiring me to attend to all this stimuli. Roll with it for now, find fascination with it. If it becomes troublesome, dial back on whatever you practice until you stablize or become comfortable with yourself.  |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 10:25:04 AM
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Could you describe what (Vo-vi meditation) is? And how this is part of Krishnamurti's teachings whatever they are and how they fit you like a glove?
Not to worry accept and respect your chosen Sadhana.
Trying to uderstand better what you are doing before attempting a reply. |
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 1:54:29 PM
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Thank you everyone for your replies.
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
... Do not fight against it.I have to stretch, so do lots of asana and stretching, that helps, but sometimes it can be if there are ants inside me. It is the prana, life energy that you feel.
Happy practice,
I'm not fighting against if, but before this, I was able to astro-project without to much effort and now with this, I cannot leave my body no more.
Sorry for asking this, but what makes you believe that those "ant sensations" are actually prana and not for instance the electrical signals sent by the brain thru the nervous system. How can you differentiate between those two?
quote:
Originally posted by So-Hi
Could you describe what (Vo-vi meditation) is? And how this is part of Krishnamurti's teachings whatever they are and how they fit you like a glove?
Not to worry accept and respect your chosen Sadhana.
Trying to uderstand better what you are doing before attempting a reply.
So-Hi, here's is the Vo-vi meditation practice described in detail. http://www.vovi.org/en/. I never said Vo-vi meditation is part of Krishnamurti teachings. What I said was that I'm following K. teachings, and mainly what K. said that you should not to follow anyone, but rather try to observe yourself and find what is suitable for you (in terms of practice).
Vo-vi meditation is a powerful technique that can lead to self destruction if is not followed properly. The method was developed by master Tam.
I remember in 2012 I was closer to death while I was practicing it, I got closer to SHC - spontaneous human combustion and some of my bowls were damaged, it took me a few months to recover. Besides that I was decaying while alive. There were a lot of other symptoms, but most of them I understood, and there is no need to expose them here.
That is the main reason that I changed the practice a little bit, in order to be able to stabilize myself and handle it properly.
Thank you for your advice So-Hi, and the reason that I asked that question was because I wanted to understand what is actually going on from experienced practitioners.  |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 2:06:27 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 6:23:22 PM
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| Thank you for making that clear. Hope someone with experience replies know why you are asking for such a person, have been there more than once myself, not sure you will find someone like that here but welcome to AYP. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 7:13:06 PM
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Does the burning change location?
How are you residing with the pain?
As to your question about prana.
What is prana? Most would agree it is energy right?
Prana is really the same as kundalini and universal consciousness. It is all the same thing.
As your practice grows so to seems to be the progression. At first we notice some energy. Then we notice a lot more energy in the form of kundalini. As we progress and reside more and more in that energy. We begin to experience oneness and emptiness. The energy becomes more and more ecstatic until it turns to ever increasing depths of silence and residing in awareness.
So that was a very long way of saying keep practicing and you will have no doubt. :) |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2015 : 01:48:52 AM
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I am sorry Krisandu if I jumped to conclusion to fast....I have, like everybody else only my own experience.
For me the feeling of would like to stretch, or automatic yoga are movements of energy.
I call this prana or kundalini energy.
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2015 : 12:17:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by So-Hi
Thank you for making that clear. Hope someone with experience replies know why you are asking for such a person, have been there more than once myself, not sure you will find someone like that here but welcome to AYP.
Yes I know what are you talking about. I have been looking for such a person, for a long time, but so far I haven't find it.
Not a lot of genuine masters out there, most of them are doing business out off those teachings. The sad thing is that if you find a master that is genuine, say for instance Sadhguru, he will refuse to advise you, unless you drop your ideas/practice and cling to his.
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2015 : 1:39:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Does the burning change location?
How are you residing with the pain?
As to your question about prana.
What is prana? Most would agree it is energy right?
Prana is really the same as kundalini and universal consciousness. It is all the same thing.
As your practice grows so to seems to be the progression. At first we notice some energy. Then we notice a lot more energy in the form of kundalini. As we progress and reside more and more in that energy. We begin to experience oneness and emptiness. The energy becomes more and more ecstatic until it turns to ever increasing depths of silence and residing in awareness.
So that was a very long way of saying keep practicing and you will have no doubt. :)
It changes the location, is not stationary.
I’m not an expert on yogic/yoga terminology, but my understanding of prana is indeed energy, but is in essence is the life giving force. What happened to me while close to SHC was not caused by the prana, but rather by either activating or opening of the manipuraka chakra. That event caused the weakest points of my nadis/channels to burst due to a higher dose of cosmic energy.
Again, cosmic energy is indeed energy, but has nothing to do with prana. Kundalini, is energy but again, I would say it has nothing to do with prana. It is very clear that one human being can live his life without the awakening of the kundalini, but is even clearer that he cannot live without prana, which is the life force. Therefore, prana is not the same thing as kundalini. Kundalini is an auxiliary force, and my personal opinion is that one should not indulge himself into trying to awaken this energy, unless he has mastery over his personality and emotions.
The electrical signals that are traveling thru the sympathetic and parasympathetic system are indeed a different kind of energy. Those have slower frequencies compared with the ones from prana. There is indeed a different sensation between the traveling of kundalini thru the spine and the ant sensation felt in the nervous system and I would like to understand this, if someone here is familiar with this difference.
Thank you! |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2015 : 8:54:48 PM
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That's a common misconception.
Ramana Maharshi mentioned that Kundalini is nothing but the natural energy of the Self, where Self is the universal consciousness (Paramatma) present in every being, and that the individual mind of thoughts cloaks this natural energy from unadulterated expression. Advaita teaches self-realization, enlightenment, God-consciousness, and nirvana. But, initial Kundalini awakening is just the beginning of actual spiritual experience. Self-inquiry meditation is considered a very natural and simple means of reaching this goal.[19] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini
Now this talks about kundalini is just energy that really arises from the heart. After this I will just share a link showing that it is all universal consciousness and that it all is the heart.
https://realizetheworld.wordpress.c...na-maharshi/
Question: It is said that the Sakti manifests itself in five phases,
ten phases, a hundred phases and a thousand phases. Which is true?
Sri Ramana Maharshi: Sakti has only one phase. If it is said to
manifest itself in several phases, it is only a way of speaking. The
Sakti is only one.
Question: How to churn up the Nadis (psychic nerves) so that the
Kundalini may go up the Sushumna?
Sri Ramana Maharshi: Though the Yogi may have his methods of breath
control for his object, the Jnani’s method is only that of enquiry.
When by this method the mind is merged in the Self, the Sakti or
Kundalini, which is not apart from the Self, rises automatically.
The Yogis attach the highest importance to sending the Kundalini up
to the Sahasrara, the brain centre or the thousand petalled lotus.
They point out the scriptural statement that the life current enters
the body through the fontanelle and argue that, Viyoga (separation)
having come about that way, yoga (union) must also be effected in the
reverse way. Therefore, they say, we must, by yoga practice, gather
up the Pranas (vital force) and enter the fontanelle for the
consummation of yoga. The Jnanis on the other hand point out that the
yogi assumes the existence of the body and its separateness from the
Self. Only if this standpoint of separateness is adopted can the yogi
advise effort for reunion by the practice of yoga.
In fact the body is in the mind which has the brain for its seat.
That the brain functions by light borrowed from another source is
admitted by the yogis themselves in their fontanelle theory. The
Jnani further argues: if the light is borrowed it must come from its
native source. Go to the source direct and do not depend on borrowed
sources. That source is the Heart, the Self.
The Self does not come from anywhere else and enter the body through
the crown of the head. It is as it is, ever sparkling, ever steady,
unmoving and unchanging. The individual confines himself to the
limits of the changeful body or of the mind which derives its
existence from the unchanging Self. All that is necessary is to give
up this mistaken identity, and that done, the ever shining Self will
be seen to be the single non-dual reality.
If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the
ecstasy of Samadhi ensues. The Vasanas, that is the latent mental
tendencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to
wake up from the Samadhi because release from bondage has not yet
been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the Vasanas
inherent in him so that they cease to disturb the peace of his
Samadhi. So he passes down from the Sahasrara to the Heart through
what is called the Jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the
Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the lowest
Chakra, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there
bends down and ends in the Heart. When the yogi has reached the
Heart, the Samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the Heart is
the final centre.
http://www.angelfire.com/space2/lig...mana.html#11
Wise men say that there is a connection between the source of the various psychic nerves and the Self, that this is the knot of the heart, that the connection between the sentient and the insentient will exist until this is cut asunder with the aid of true knowledge, that just as the subtle and invisible force of electricity travels through wires and does many wonderful things, so the force of the Self also travels through the psychic nerves and, pervading the entire body, imparts sentience to the senses, and that if this knot is cut the Self will remain as it always is, without any attributes. (Ramana Maharshi, SI, Chapter 2, Question 12.)
What is called the heart is no other than Brahman. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 8.)
Call it by any name, God, Self, the Heart or the Seat of Consciousness, it is all the same. The point to be grasped is this, that HEART means the very Core of one's being, the Centre, without which there is nothing whatever. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 72.)
[The Heart] is the Centre of spiritual experience according to the testimony of Sages. The spiritual Heart-centre is quite different from the blood- propelling, muscular organ known by the same name. The spiritual Heart-centre is not an organ of the body. All that you can say of the Heart is that it is the very Core of your being, that [with] which you are really identical (as the word in Sanskrit literally means), whether you are awake, asleep or dreaming, whether you are engaged in work or immersed in Samadhi. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 73.)
The Heart … is different from the blood vessel, so called, and is not the Anahata Chakra in the middle of the chest, one of the six centres spoken of in books on Yoga. (Ramana Maharshi, KOL, 150.)
This heart is different from the physical heart; beating is the function of the latter. The former is the seat of spiritual experience. That is all that can be said of it.
Truly speaking pure Consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no “within” and “without.” There is no “right” or “left” for it. Pure Consciousness, which is the Heart, includes all; and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate Truth |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2015 : 8:57:28 PM
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| It all has labels and is separate until we reach the depth to realize its not. |
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2015 : 1:10:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
That's a common misconception.
What is the common misconception that are you refer to?
Kundalini is an auxiliary force, and it does not belong to man but to the earth.
It doesn't rise from the heart but form muladhara, which is called the fundamental chakra and is the first chakra that is connected/rooted with the earth.
I don't wanna get into details but kundalini is just a force that one borrows from the earth in order to help him to rise his energy into higher centers.
That is why Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, and other masters dismissed this path. You can get to self realization WITHOUT any kundalini awakening.
You can activate or even open you third eye without any kundalini. How can you explain this? 
Interesting advice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXZbtsiFEZE |
Edited by - Krisandru on Aug 17 2015 1:29:10 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 11:13:59 AM
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The misconception is thinking it is serperate. That is it a seperate source of energy seperate from prana or universal consciousness.
Yes everyone knows it is a well of energy at our base. Is that it?
Prana is a seperate energy just like kundalini and we have all of this seperateness right. We can also add in the male/transmission and the female/reception aspect while we are at it.
The above links where my attempt to show you that prana is the same thing as kundalini. Ramana say's that kundalini is nothing more than universal consciousness and that all thoughts arise from the heart. A different topic but it is all related.
Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, and other masters who have not realized that truth are people I would stop reading. I would be interested in reading what they do have to say about it.
There are systems that don't work with energy at all. Nothing wrong with that but if a so called master is saying it is not all the same thing.. Run.
I like working with energy and have found the less I believe I am seperate the more I tend to reside more and more in it. I have not found any correlation between kundalini and the earth :)
I have found that as one progress from feeling a little bit of energy, to feeling energy 24/7 flowing through ones body to getting to the point of thinking of a person and being that person. Each step along the way has been one of me letting go of my separateness.
I would also like to say that, that video is so wrong in so many way.
First it makes it seem so scary to open your chakras and that once you do your giong to get some powers. You open your 3rd eye you can see. Some may even be able to travel in the astral. I have met some people that can influence others with the 3rd chakra but i would not consider that real siddhas.
Yogi's are not the only ones to work on chakras, to live in caves or to aquire siddhas. What is the purpose of deity yoga?
http://www.tibetanbuddhistaltar.org...dmasambhava/
Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which is more important, the master or the yidam deity?
The master replied: Do not regard the master and the yidam as different, because it is the master who introduces the yidam to you. By always venerating the master at the crown of your head you will be blessed and your obstacles will be cleared away. If you regard the master and yidam as being different in quality or importance you are holding misconceptions.
Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?
The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.
Lady Tsogyal asked the master: When practicing a yidam deity, how should we meditate and practice in order to attain accomplishment?
The master replied: Since means and knowledge are to practice the spontaneously present body, speech and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, they will be accomplished no matter how you carry out the sadhana aspects endowed with body, speech, and mind. They will be accomplished when the sadhana and the recitation are practiced in a sufficient amount.
Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we approach the sugata yidam deity?
The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.
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Edited by - jonesboy on Aug 18 2015 2:52:14 PM |
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 7:20:27 PM
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Jonesboy,
I hope you don’t get me wrong on this, but after what you have said, you got me confused. With that being said please allow me to understand what are you trying to say.
The misconception is thinking it is serperate. That is it a seperate source of energy seperate from prana or universal consciousness.
It it indeed one and the same energy, but that is at a very very subtile level, or I might say if we look at the entire universe at once. Water is energy and fire is energy as well, but creatures on this earth are able to distinguish between them, that is way no creature confuses fire with water or vice-versa. Same thing with prana and kundalini, don’t you think so?
Yes everyone knows it is a well of energy at our base. Is that it?
I don’t believe everyone thinks that there is wheel of energy at our base. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of chakras/wheels as far as I know.
Prana is a seperate energy just like kundalini and we have all of this seperateness right. We can also add in the male/transmission and the female/reception aspect while we are at it.
Above you said that prana and kundalini are one and the same think, now you contradict what you stated above: “The misconception is thinking it is serperate.
"
The above links where my attempt to show you that prana is the same thing as kundalini.
Again you are coming back to the same conclusion. Can you please be more specific and try to explain with your own words and your own experience what is the difference?
Ramana say's that kundalini is nothing more than universal consciousness and that all thoughts arise from the heart. A different topic but it is all related.
Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, and other masters who have not realized that truth are people I would stop reading. I would be interested in reading what they do have to say about it.
I’m not denying what Ramana said, but I cannot deny what Krishnamurti, Sadhguru or Gurdjieff said as well. How did you know who was and who was not a realized master? As far as I know, only enlighted beings can know for sure who is realized and who is not. What is the base of your judgement?
There are systems that don't work with energy at all. Nothing wrong with that but if a so called master is saying it is not all the same thing.. Run.
I like working with energy and have found the less I believe I am seperate the more I tend to reside more and more in it. I have not found any correlation between kundalini and the earth :)
If you don’t mind, that do you mean by “I like working with energy”? I might be wrong when I said that kundalini is related to earth, but that is why I’m open to anyone here that can clarify me in this regards.
I have found that as one progress from feeling a little bit of energy, to feeling energy 24/7 flowing through ones body to getting to the point of thinking of a person and being that person. Each step along the way has been one of me letting go of my separateness.
Ok, so can you tell me what is the difference between you before and now? So my understanding is that you feel more energy flowing thru you. Anything else? Where have you arrived with that?
I would also like to say that, that video is so wrong in so many way.
First it makes it seem so scary to open your chakras and that once you do your giong to get some powers. You open your 3rd eye you can see. Some may even be able to travel in the astral. I have met some people that can influence others with the 3rd chakra but i would not consider that real siddhas.
That is indeed your opinion and I greatly appreciated your thoughts on it.
Do you consider yourself a real siddhas? If so, what is the meaning of it and how this changed your life so far.
I greatly appreciated your efforts and I look forward to your answer.
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 10:21:19 AM
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quote:
Jonesboy,
I hope you don’t get me wrong on this, but after what you have said, you got me confused. With that being said please allow me to understand what are you trying to say.
The misconception is thinking it is serperate. That is it a seperate source of energy seperate from prana or universal consciousness.
It it indeed one and the same energy, but that is at a very very subtile level, or I might say if we look at the entire universe at once. Water is energy and fire is energy as well, but creatures on this earth are able to distinguish between them, that is way no creature confuses fire with water or vice-versa. Same thing with prana and kundalini, don’t you think so?
Nope, not at all
Prana is the atoms one could say of kundalini. One is not fire and the other water. They are both light. Once you get past the fear of kundalini and realize that all energy is kundalini things just start to happen. Even more so when you realize it is all you.
quote:
Yes everyone knows it is a well of energy at our base. Is that it?
I don’t believe everyone thinks that there is wheel of energy at our base. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of chakras/wheels as far as I know
Scientist don't believe in Rigpa or Samadhi but it can be experienced and it is real.
quote:
Ramana say's that kundalini is nothing more than universal consciousness and that all thoughts arise from the heart. A different topic but it is all related.
Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, and other masters who have not realized that truth are people I would stop reading. I would be interested in reading what they do have to say about it.
I’m not denying what Ramana said, but I cannot deny what Krishnamurti, Sadhguru or Gurdjieff said as well. How did you know who was and who was not a realized master? As far as I know, only enlighted beings can know for sure who is realized and who is not. What is the base of your judgement?
The ones who say that there is separateness are the ones you should not listen to. Those that talk about how it is all one. Ramana is great because he will show you how it is all in the body but as your progress there is no body and it really isn't in those locations.
That has been my experience also. Everything we are talking about has been my experience which is why I am talking about it.
Also one doesn't have to be realized to be able to tell what level a being is or if they have achieved light.
quote:
There are systems that don't work with energy at all. Nothing wrong with that but if a so called master is saying it is not all the same thing.. Run.
I like working with energy and have found the less I believe I am seperate the more I tend to reside more and more in it. I have not found any correlation between kundalini and the earth :)
If you don’t mind, that do you mean by “I like working with energy”? I might be wrong when I said that kundalini is related to earth, but that is why I’m open to anyone here that can clarify me in this regards.
One can get to a point where they are the energy. Where it radiates off of them and affects those around them.
quote:
I have found that as one progress from feeling a little bit of energy, to feeling energy 24/7 flowing through ones body to getting to the point of thinking of a person and being that person. Each step along the way has been one of me letting go of my separateness.
Ok, so can you tell me what is the difference between you before and now? So my understanding is that you feel more energy flowing thru you. Anything else? Where have you arrived with that?
It is that energy that allows us to let go of issues. The energy flowing through me now is mostly of degrees of silence. I experience bliss and ecstasy. I have periods of residing in deep levels of silence and others where I still get caught up in emotions.
Without going to deep. It is energy that allows for our deepest states in meditation. It is energy that feels orgasmic hitting our obstructions. It is energy that is all things.
quote:
I would also like to say that, that video is so wrong in so many way.
First it makes it seem so scary to open your chakras and that once you do your giong to get some powers. You open your 3rd eye you can see. Some may even be able to travel in the astral. I have met some people that can influence others with the 3rd chakra but i would not consider that real siddhas.
That is indeed your opinion and I greatly appreciated your thoughts on it.
Do you consider yourself a real siddhas? If so, what is the meaning of it and how this changed your life so far.
I greatly appreciated your efforts and I look forward to your answer.
Yes,
They have allowed me the opportunity to help others. To help people with kundalini issues. To help open chakras and progress people along the spiritual path. They have allowed me to have a small part in improving others lives.
Please reference my friend as an example. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=15205 |
Edited by - jonesboy on Aug 19 2015 11:16:35 AM |
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Krisandru
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2015 : 12:43:17 PM
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Thank you Jonesboy for your response.
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Body sensations
