|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Tempest
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 02 2015 : 3:56:17 PM
|
I was wondering is there anyone here who is enlightened/liberated/ in nirvikalpa or sahaja samadhi?
If so, what practices do you feel most helped you reach this state of consciousness
and
what is life for you like now? Do you experience any suffering? |
Edited by - Tempest on Aug 02 2015 4:06:46 PM |
|
|
Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2015 : 4:07:04 PM
|
Not me.  |
 |
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2015 : 5:16:52 PM
|
Hi Tempest,
Enlightenment is never a done deal. There is never a point where you can say: "now I am enlightened". It is really an ongoing process of awakening. At a certain stage, even the idea of both enlightenment itself and of a person progressing on a path, begin to dissolve and become increasingly meaningless.
Boundaries begin to fall away, such as the idea of separation between self and other. Any statement which implies that one person has achieved a certain state and another has not, is based in duality, not founded in reality which is beyond separation. So be very weary of anyone who claims that they are enlightened.
In the main lessons, Yogani describes various milestones, which we pass as we continue to progress on the spiritual journey. These are stages on the path, but not the final resting place. These milestones are covered here:
Enlightenment milestones
Enlightenment milestones revisited
The higher stage of this process can be understood as a melting of the crown into the heart. This is covered in this lesson:
What is the end game in yoga
But even that is not a final resting place (despite the title of the lesson ). The journey goes on from there in service to others as the heart continues to expand and open.
So if you are on a spiritual path, which I assume you are, the best advice I can give you is to enjoy the journey. The journey itself is the goal, and in time will become timeless. Suffering becomes less at every stage.
Christi |
|
|
|
alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2015 : 9:29:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Tempest,
Enlightenment is never a done deal. There is never a point where you can say: "now I am enlightened". It is really an ongoing process of awakening. At a certain stage, even the idea of both enlightenment itself and of a person progressing on a path, begin to dissolve and become increasingly meaningless.
Boundaries begin to fall away, such as the idea of separation between self and other. Any statement which implies that one person has achieved a certain state and another has not, is based in duality, not founded in reality which is beyond separation. So be very weary of anyone who claims that they are enlightened.
In the main lessons, Yogani describes various milestones, which we pass as we continue to progress on the spiritual journey. These are stages on the path, but not the final resting place. These milestones are covered here:
Enlightenment milestones
Enlightenment milestones revisited
The higher stage of this process can be understood as a melting of the crown into the heart. This is covered in this lesson:
What is the end game in yoga
But even that is not a final resting place (despite the title of the lesson ). The journey goes on from there in service to others as the heart continues to expand and open.
So if you are on a spiritual path, which I assume you are, the best advice I can give you is to enjoy the journey. The journey itself is the goal, and in time will become timeless. Suffering becomes less at every stage.
Christi
Christi,
Weren't Buddha's first words: "I am the awakened one" when encountered by the first person who saw him after his boddhi tree session, and asked him "who are you?" Seems like he clearly understood he was at that moment enlightened and transcended all that he was before. Like a line in the sand of his mind had been crossed and he knew it. The bakhti was strong with him.
I think to become "fully and completely enlightened", and not "somewhat enlightened" like Lahiri Mahasaya the householder, one has to renounce all material possessions and live the life of a monk-type, which is unrealistic for housekeepers, thus we may never be "fully" enlightened. I believe Buddha even said it was necessary to renounce to achieve full enlightenment which is why he established his monastic order.
But we have to ask, is being "fully enlightened" really all that necessary for spiritual development and evolution? Lahiri seemed to be doing OK and enjoyed his life fully. Seems like "full enlightenment" is more of a lifestyle addition than an altered consciousness, if one is willing to go "all the way". A "do or die" mentality towards enlightenment. |
Edited by - alecpeace on Aug 02 2015 9:47:17 PM |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2015 : 11:24:26 PM
|
Very solid, Christi. Great explanation and references to key lessons.
@Tempest: you know what I like about sports? Whenever some record gets set which they say is unbreakable, somebody ends up coming along and breaking it. 
Jesus said: "You will do the things I am doing, and greater."
You can't put a ceiling on the Infinite.  |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 03:46:57 AM
|
Hi Alecpeace,
quote:
Christi,
Weren't Buddha's first words: "I am the awakened one" when encountered by the first person who saw him after his boddhi tree session, and asked him "who are you?" Seems like he clearly understood he was at that moment enlightened and transcended all that he was before. Like a line in the sand of his mind had been crossed and he knew it. The bakhti was strong with him.
I think to become "fully and completely enlightened", and not "somewhat enlightened" like Lahiri Mahasaya the householder, one has to renounce all material possessions and live the life of a monk-type, which is unrealistic for housekeepers, thus we may never be "fully" enlightened. I believe Buddha even said it was necessary to renounce to achieve full enlightenment which is why he established his monastic order.
I don't know if the Buddha said that or not? I doubt that anyone does. From the perspective of yoga, and the spiritual journey, what happens at a certain stage is a falling away of identity. Or rather a falling away of identification with what we are not. Ultimately what we find is that if we can say: "I am" and then follow that by anything at all, that is false identification with some aspect of material existence or the mental realms. That would include statements like: "I am the awakened one". Statements of self-proclamation such as that are not helpful to either those making them, or to those listening.
If there are lines being drawn in the sand of the mind, one thing we can ask is: "Who is drawing the lines?". That inquiry alone can take us beyond line-drawing.
To engage in that process, first of all we need to become ripe to the point where the mind is silent. For that, practices are needed. So it is a long journey. Becoming a monastic, or living in the world as a householder are really lifestyle choices in all of this. It is only a reflection of our outward living circumstances. It does not affect the real process which is that of spiritual purification.
Christi
|
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 10:34:41 AM
|
Really like your answer Christi.
quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace
Weren't Buddha's first words: "I am the awakened one"
I also heard one of Buddhas's names translates as 'no one'. If that is true, it's pretty incompatible with statements like 'I am this' and 'I am that'. |
|
|
|
Tempest
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 1:12:15 PM
|
Yogani talks about being liberated whilst alive. From my understanding that results from knowing you are consciousness which is free from the cycle of birth and rebirth, i.e. you know that you will not be reborn agin unless you choose to
Is there anyone who has reached that stage? Who has tasted the fruit of liberation?
Again from my understanding the aim is union with God, self realization or awareness the you are God, which results in cessation of all suffering because suffering is rooted in the mind and body complex and with selfrealization, you realize that you not the body or mind.
This supposedly feels like bliss and an unshakable peace which doesn't depend on external circumstances. Is there anyone here who feels that peace and bliss? Or is this just yogic lore and fantasy? |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 1:25:22 PM
|
Hello Tempest,
You have very good questions. Are you practicing AYP? If not, why don't you take up the practices and find out for yourself?
Sunyata |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 1:40:22 PM
|
Yes, the bliss and unshakable peace not dependant on external circumstances do exist. I don't think you can take it for granted though, therefore you can't turn it into an attribute of your person (e.g. enlightened, liberated etc). I see it as a state of grace, a gift by definition.
quote:
Originally posted by Tempest
self realization or awareness the you are God, which results in cessation of all suffering because suffering is rooted in the mind and body complex and with selfrealization, you realize that you not the body or mind.
Yes, you can realize that you are not the body or mind. You are awareness.
And again you can't ever take this realization for granted, because you never know how you are going to be tested (think Jesus on the cross and "why hast thou forsaken me" - that's one famous example). So Christi is right - "enlightenment is never a done deal".
If you're wondering if it's worth taking up yoga practices, then my answer is yes. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 03 2015 2:12:40 PM |
|
|
|
Tempest
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 3:13:20 PM
|
Hi Blueraincoat, do you know this bliss and unshakeable peace from personal experience?
As to your reference to Jesus. This sounds like a pretty cruel God, if self realization is something that you can lose and can be taken away from you. And if the historical reference is accurate, when Jesus most needed it too.
|
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 3:23:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tempest
Hi Blueraincoat, do you know this bliss and unshakeable peace from personal experience?
Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Tempest
This sounds like a pretty cruel God, if self realization is something that you can lose and can be taken away from you.
It is not taken away from you. You make yourself unfit/incompatible with that state of grace by what you are thinking or doing. It is not enough to have stepped on the good path once. You have to stay on it.
For Jesus it was an extreme test - he was tortured and it must have seemed the whole world was against him. But it was something in him – the reaction to that situation that made him lose the oneness. Perhaps we should all pray that we are not so tested. Or, even better, learn to welcome any trial, so that we can see our weakness and go deeper and deeper into surrender.
It is work in progress for all of us. I for one have a long journey ahead as I am still a beginner. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 03 2015 3:40:06 PM |
|
|
|
Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 3:33:53 PM
|
| Blue |
|
|
|
kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 4:48:02 PM
|
| love + love = |
|
|
|
alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 9:25:35 PM
|
quote:
I don't know if the Buddha said that or not? I doubt that anyone does. From the perspective of yoga, and the spiritual journey, what happens at a certain stage is a falling away of identity. Or rather a falling away of identification with what we are not. Ultimately what we find is that if we can say: "I am" and then follow that by anything at all, that is false identification with some aspect of material existence or the mental realms. That would include statements like: "I am the awakened one". Statements of self-proclamation such as that are not helpful to either those making them, or to those listening.
Christi, BlueRaincoat,
Buddha's use in the english translations of his sayings incorporating the word "I" is sort of purely semantics/twisting of the english language and has nothing to do with "ego". Sorry, if I misled anyone. In English speaking countries, even an enlightened person would still be using the word "I" in conversational speech, otherwise it would be hard to understand what the heck they're talking about, or they'd have to refer to themselves in the third person, which is wacky.
Concerning his first words after enlightenment, most people understand/think his first words after enlightenment as this:
It is said that soon after his enlightenment the Buddha passed a man on the road who was struck by the Buddha's extraordinary radiance and peaceful presence. The man stopped and asked,
My friend, what are you?
Are you a celestial being or a god?
No
said the Buddha
Well, then, are you some kind of magician or wizard?
again the Buddha answered
No
Are you a man?
No
Well, my friend, then what are you?
the Buddha replied
I am awake
What is actually written down in texts is this:
On seeing him, [Dona] went to him and said, “Master, are you a deva [a god]?”
“No, brahman, I am not a deva.”
“Are you a gandhabba [a kind of low-grade god; a celestial musician]?”
“No…”
“… a yakkha [a kind of protector god, or sometimes a trickster spirit]?”
“No…”
“… a human being?”
“No, brahman, I am not a human being.”
…
“Then what sort of being are you?”
…
“Remember me, brahman, as ‘awakened.’”
reference: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...36.than.html
Some learned individual on this forum, I believe, from some posts way, way back (you can do a search, but you'd have to sift through tons of posts), interpreted Buddha's personality based strictly off the Pali Canon as an egotistical narcissist, but I think thats due to poor translation of the native tongue.
Looking through the Pali Canon though, Buddha uses the word "I" on almost every single page, of course this is English translation and nobody knows how he actually spoke and I'm sure he wasn't looking down at anyone from a pedestal of spiritual superiority, but does anyone really think he never used the word "I" after enlightenment in simple conversation? ...And, not in the "ego, I am" type of way, but in simple conversation. Of course, saintly people, enlightened people understand inside themselves at an intellectual level, and perhaps at an experiential level (if they've experienced a "Unity with All" moment), that there is no "I ego", but lets face it, when you live on earth and talk to regular folks and try to help them, it helps to be able to relate. As long as somebody can physically touch you and see you, and you have a name, there is an "I" attached to you by others, whether you attach an "I" to yourself or not.
Again, sorry if I confused anyone, my apologies. I fear I may have confused you even more now
quote:
If there are lines being drawn in the sand of the mind, one thing we can ask is: "Who is drawing the lines?". That inquiry alone can take us beyond line-drawing.
Christi,
again, my misuse of words, sorry. The concept I was trying to get across is more like "crossed to the other shore" to be more in-line with buddhist terminology.
But even if we look at "who is drawing the lines?", it's clear that it would be Buddha drawing the lines, separating who he was as a vegabond/tramp and who he is now, spiritually more advanced than he was before. Do you think in his mind he didn't see the difference between who he was after enlightenment and who he was before? The Pali is littered with examples of this! Do you think Gautama became some completely different person after his visions/experiences? All that happened was he just had a different way of looking at things, and he mentions this himself when he tells stories of how he tortured himself on his journeys, reminiscing on the old days when he lived the life of extremes before discovering the "middle way". For Buddha, enlightenment was simply the answer to his question which set him on his journeys: How to end suffering/discomfort in life. He realized that you just have to stop wanting "stuff" to happen a certain way, other than what it already is. Quite simple, but people overcomplicate it. I know enlightened people in my life, and so do you most likely, that is, if we're interpreting enlightenment in this practical way, and not as something esoteric as "being in constant union with god, shedding the physical body, attaining permanent divine consciousness, etc, etc."
If you've been on the spiritual journey long enough, you'll clearly remember moments of spiritual experiences which altered your way of looking at the world slightly, or greatly, depending on the experience. Thats what I mean by "line in the sand". You've crossed it, your consciousness is now different, a weight has been taken off your shoulders. The sky has cleared, you can see now, you've crossed a line... put that date in your calendar if you want, lol. Even without meditating, if you read enough spiritual books you're bound to have small "enlightenment moments" here and there, the Aha moments which can be intellectual AND experiential if you apply them.
quote:
As to your reference to Jesus. This sounds like a pretty cruel God, if self realization is something that you can lose and can be taken away from you.
Tempest,
can I recommend a book? "Between life and death" by Dolores Cannon, in fact all her books are worthy, but that one is good if you've never heard of her work before. Another good book is "Dancing on a Stamp" by Garnet Schulhauser, in fact, I'd start with that one first. I've had a few Aha! moments there as well.
|
Edited by - alecpeace on Aug 03 2015 11:35:18 PM |
|
|
|
Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 9:54:47 PM
|
Hi Tempest,
suffering ends much earlier on the yogic path, even some yoga can free you from most problems of life. This does not mean that your leg cannot hurt or other things cannot happen, but it is not a problem anymore. Joy is always there in you, waiting to overflow more and more.
Depending on the usage of words and definitions your question can be answered in many ways. You can say there is no end, all is infinity. At the same time, nonduality includes all infinity and in this is complete. You can fully arrive in nonduality and at the same time see it is endless. Paradoxes merge and dual statements become both correct and incorrect at the same time.
Nirvikalpa samadhi is a state, into which you can enter and come out. In this it cannot be regarded as liberation, but according to the one or other master it is defined as enlightenment and godrealization. Freedom would be true freedom, aka everything is open for you fully and forever, all possible no limits. All samadhis or no samadhi, nonduality or duality or both at the same time, freedom. Also do not limit yourself to the current physical body, nonduality includes all bodies, all times, all spaces, all states and beyond all. Most people here have limited experiences into nonduality, some feel one to this degree, some feel one to that degree, oneness without a second with really all and everything, perhaps no-one, but who knows :).
@alecpeace quote:
"somewhat enlightened" like Lahiri Mahasaya the householder..Lahiri seemed to be doing OK
Your intepretation is based on your experience and insight into him or where does this conclusion come?
There is a story with Trailanga Swami, known to have lived for more than 300 years, a fully realized siddha, undying so to speak. He never spoke, but when Lahiri came along he broke his silence to greet him and pay respect to him. The story continues like this:
“Sir”, a student of him said, “why do you, a Swami and a renunciant, show such respect to a mere householder?”.
Trailanga replied, “My son, Lahiri Mahasaya is like a divine kitten, remaining wherever the Cosmic Mother has placed him. While dutifully playing the part of a worldly man, he has received that perfect Self-realization which I have sought by renouncing everything including my loin cloth.” (Source: http://www.writespirit.net/authors/...ri-mahasaya/)
More on Trailanga Swami can be found here: http://www.deeptrancenow.com/exc_trailanga.htm (excerpt from the autobiographyof a Yogi)
The expressions are different but the inner being is one.
@Tempest
it can easily happen that you clearly perceive yourself beyond all relativity, everything either still is or dissolves but you do not dissolve. Still as long as your brain works and your heart beats, the realization cannot be complete as the perception and insight has still happened in relation to a functioning body-mind. If the body-mind falls dead or dissolves completely and you still are, this would be full proof to yourself in regards to your eternity. I have met people having reached this state, bodies either die and refunction or dissolve completely and reappear. Only seeing this from the outside gives you the full assurance, like partaking of their realization, but nothing can replace your own. Yoga can bring you to this, how many here have arrived at that completeness, no one knows. Few will tell in open forums to my feeling, some may give you hints by private messages.
All love friend and happy practice :) |
|
|
|
alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2015 : 11:38:24 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
@alecpeace quote:
"somewhat enlightened" like Lahiri Mahasaya the householder..Lahiri seemed to be doing OK
Your interpretation is based on your experience and insight into him or where does this conclusion come?
Yes, I rushed to judgement. I guess I was typing too fast. My fingers were flying off the keyboard!, lol. Of course, there aren't any "level" to enlightenment. |
|
|
|
Purohit
India
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 12:25:57 AM
|
Beauitiful, holy thread...
Grace & Love
|
|
|
|
Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 05:03:28 AM
|
One of the most challenging on this journey is talk about liberation, enlightenment , the unspeakable beyond mind express in language, at the same time know that the words will be heard and explained in different ways.....
Thank you for sharing.
|
|
|
|
Tempest
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 07:33:26 AM
|
Yogani states this in start lessons here: "Why bother with all this? To be honest, it is the greatest high we can have. The pleasure is beyond anything on earth. Really. The essence of divine experience is unending devastating bliss and an unshakable silent peace."
I have been experiencing what I think are kriyas for 2 years now, they feel like muscle twitching in various parts of my body. Soon after I started experiencing them I took shaktipat in absentia (at a distance) with Sri Anandi Ma. From what I understand, the path of kundalini maha yoga is essentially a path of surrender. The kundalini supposedly automatically does the work. However, there are mantras which were given which are meant to burn samskaras and speed up the process.
To be honest, despite feeling the kundalini working in me, I haven't experienced any practical effects on my life (feeling of increased calmness or bliss). Repeating mantras doesn't make me feel any happier. BUt I wonder if it just takes many years to feel the effects.
I was wondering whther adding spinal breathing and ayam meditation will help or hinder my progress.. |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 07:50:56 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tempest
The kundalini supposedly automatically does the work.
The AYP stance on this is somewhat different. It is recommended that we do practices to develop inner silence/the witness. Deep meditation is used for that purpose. The energy/kundalini merges with the silence. Yes, it takes some years. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 04 2015 07:51:45 AM |
|
|
|
Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 08:42:39 AM
|
quote:
I was wondering whther adding spinal breathing and ayam meditation will help or hinder my progress..
Those are powerful practice, so give it a go...love your practice!
You received wonderful answers on your questions. Read them with your full attention.
Expectations are a hindrance, they give frustration.....it is not easy to let expectations go.
Desire and Bhakti are the ingredients you need, see Desire- Bhakti lesson on the left menu.
|
Edited by - Charliedog on Aug 04 2015 09:39:09 AM |
|
|
|
So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2015 : 4:02:28 PM
|
| Yes Shhhhhh!! |
Edited by - So-Hi on Aug 04 2015 4:04:20 PM |
|
|
|
tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2015 : 10:00:30 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tempest
I was wondering is there anyone here who is enlightened/liberated/ in nirvikalpa or sahaja samadhi?
If so, what practices do you feel most helped you reach this state of consciousness
and
what is life for you like now? Do you experience any suffering?
Hi Tempest, Christi nailed it with his response.
We move toward liberation like the ocean moves toward high tide. Waves flowing in and out.
There are tastes of the supreme realization, but there are also regressions. We are here for that journey just as much as the linear goal—which we will all reach eventually.
Basically, you're asking the wrong question ..
However, AYP is the most effective set of practices I know of. But everyone's different, you must figure that out for yourself. |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2015 : 1:05:00 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
We move toward liberation like the ocean moves toward high tide.
I like that comparison. |
|
|
|
Tempest
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2015 : 09:20:19 AM
|
| Does anyone here know without any doubt that God exists? I mean does anyone feel at one with God and can say so with complete certainty? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Is anyone here enlightened/liberated?
