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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 11:36:11 AM
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Hi makemerry,
I hope that you heal the wounds, and be free from suffering.
LOVE,
Yonatan
Much strength to you  |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 12:09:10 PM
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Hi Makemerry,
Thank you for your post. A big HUG and much love to you. Your openess and honesty is refreshing. Shanti's post offers very good advice and direction. AYP is a wonderful and effective system of integrated yoga practices that have helped many, young and old, throughout the world. Opening one's heart and using prayer to receive and allow the love and blessings of Source to work in one's life can also be of benefit. Over time, the heart will open as one proceeds with AYP. Used with balance and measure, AYP and prayer are very compatible.
In this regard, some simple heart practices may also be of immediate assistance to you and can be downloaded for free from http://www.open-your-heart.org.uk. It begins with a simple smiling exercise that helps one begin to open and feel the spiritual heart. Also, a recorded open heart prayer-meditation is available. It can be quite effective in allowing Source's blessing to remove layers of deep-seated negative emotions and related charges along with their underlying patterns while simultaneously replacing them with love and light. As with all things, one's committment to regular practice brings best results. A heart-connected smile is something that can easily become a natural part of who we are throughout the day. It can change the way a person feels and allow Source a much greater access to our life and internal affairs.
I have spoken about the power of prayer and the access each of us has to Source's direct help, love and blessings here in Source - Heart - Love .
Wishing you the best always ...
Love and Light,
Steve |
Edited by - Steve on Feb 25 2011 12:59:43 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 2:33:05 PM
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Something I read in Osho's writings might impact your thoughts...
"The teacher gives you to think much; the Master only gives you a meditativeness. The teacher gives you much to dream about, to desire about; the Master hammers on all your dreams and destroys them. The Master is against your sleep; the teacher is a sedative, a tranquilizer. The Master hurts, wounds, but he transforms." |
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makemerry
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 7:39:40 PM
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Thanks for the various thoughts, suggestions, and hugs.
Jeff, your Osho quote is the kind of thing that doesn't feel helpful. Do you know what it's like to live with the feeling of terror in your body every minute of every day and have people who likely don't know what that's like tell you that the cure is more terror, that you need to be hurt worse, that you need a "master" to hurt you so that you'll wake up? I question this spiritual culture of "masters" and abuse. It reminds me of the incest culture of abuse where a child is told that their abuse is an act of love. I have experienced short awakenings that were everything I have ever wanted from life and they did not come as the result of finding a "master" who would hurt me. They were triggered by interactions with ordinary, thoughtful people in an environment of kindness, authenticity, safety, and mutual respect.
I have tried many practices in the 20 years since these memories began to surface, including qigong, yoga, meditation ... thousands of hours of various practices ... and its hard to tell what difference those have made. I have read Byron Katie's books and been to two schools run by her, and I think Byron Katie also understands very little about trauma. At the beginning of our 10 day Schools, she advised us to suspend our inner inclinations and follow her directions. I did that. She also repeatedly suggested that we "jump off the cliff." I understood her suggestion to mean that I needed to abandon my instincts for safety and trust the universe if I was going to ever be free of the hell that I lived in day to day. Katie may not aware that it is a common experience of people with PTSD from childhood experiences to have lost all sense of self-trust and also to take suggestions very literally. In the course of one of her exercises I walked off onto the streets of New York hungry and without any money or ID (rules of the exercise) and told myself that if I was going to follow Katie's suggestion to "jump off a cliff" I needed to trust the universe completely ... which meant I could not worry about how to find my way back to her bus, and that I might never ever go home or see the people I loved again ... I just had to start walking and trust the universe and go wherever that took me ... I got lost, soaked in a thunderstorm and spent the night under an underpass, ate discarded food from a bag of garbage someone had left the street ... and when people tried to help me I didn't speak to them (one of the rules of her excercise). I was terrified but i assured myself these were just "fear thoughts" and i mentally questioned my thoughts and repeated quotes from byron katie's little book of wise sayings over and over to ward off the terror. At some point the next day I had the awareness come up that what I was doing was violent and abusive to myself and to the people who I'd encountered who tried to help me, and I called the emergency number we were given and someone from the school came to get me.
In another of Katie's exercises I listened to a woman who had been sexually used by her father as a child write her father a letter of apology for "being a whore," Katie smiling and nodding while she read the letter. I wrote a similar letter, and I sent it. Looking back, there was nothing healing or enlightening about these experiences or their aftermath ... they just added confusion on to confusion.
I will perhaps look at some of the other resources people suggested, thanks. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 03:27:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by makemerry
It was his "I'm going to burn your house down" speech that he puts at the beginning of his dvd course(s) on awakening...
I'd already had my house burned down and didn't come through the other side enlightened like Adya apparently thought be had, and the message that in order to heal I was going to have to go through something like that again, was frightening and paralyzing.
It reminded me of this:
There was a public meeting arranged in a big Bombay market and a pundit was speaking on Kabir and his philosophy. He recited the couplet: kabira khada bazarmen liye lukathi hath; jo ghar barai aapna chale hamare saath. "Kabir is standing in the middle of the market waving his stick and shouting to people, calling all and sundry: 'Only those who have the courage to burn their houses should follow me.'"
I observed that people were pleased with the call, and I surmised that people who felt at ease listening to such a deep and drastic message from Kabir must really have the courage to burn their houses and set out in search of truth. With such people I thought I could speak frankly, from the bottom of my heart. But, in fact, not one of them was ready to abandon or burn his house. The point is, if Kabir had been there he wouldn't have been happy with the situation at all. All of us here relish hearing what Kabir said, but none of the people present when Kabir said it over three hundred years ago felt happy about it. I was laboring under the same illusion as Kabir, as Christ. Man is such a wonderful animal -- he enjoys listening to talk about those who are dead, and threatens to kill those who are living.
[From Lust to Lord - Osho]
http://www.balbro.com/s2s/s2s5.htm
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 03:46:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Something I read in Osho's writings might impact your thoughts...
"The teacher gives you to think much; the Master only gives you a meditativeness. The teacher gives you much to dream about, to desire about; the Master hammers on all your dreams and destroys them. The Master is against your sleep; the teacher is a sedative, a tranquilizer. The Master hurts, wounds, but he transforms."
Yes, it reminded me of this video:
I Love to Disturb People
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGQqO2TYMI
He says about Mother Teresa; It is time for her to jump into a lake!
The followers laughed but Osho remained serious. So I wondered which lake could he be talking about?
Must be very deep and still I say. 
And here is another one:
You Have Not Known Total Chaos - Just Wait...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9qgK5mvPVA
At 4:10, Osho says 'Just gather courage.'.... the words are so profound!
The whole video is awesome. And the question is from a genuine seeker like makemerry I guess.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 09:43:51 AM
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Manigma
I trust at some level, you are coming from a place of stillness, I trust that you have found that very deep and still lake somewhere, and you have jumped into it. But the way you got there is not for everyone. I love you, but I do not approve of your tactics in your response to makemerry.
Be |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 26 2011 09:48:41 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 12:06:41 PM
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Makemerry,
You have obviously experienced great pain and with my Osho statement I was only attempting to give you another perspective on your experience with Aydashanti, not make a statement about it.
Your pain is obviously still very real in your life. We all experience it in different ways. I have a suggestion for you. Reread my last post about Osho and try to watch yourself and see why my post made you angry. We all try to manage or repress emotions, feel it, but try to watch. Let it wash over you, but watch.
Peace & Love,
Jeff |
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makemerry
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 3:12:37 PM
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Jeff,
It is not anger that comes up for me when I read your Osho quote. It is the terror of the child that I was. My memory of one of my childhood experiences was of being cornered in a room by someone more powerful and terrorized until I lost consciousness. I won't go into what happened after I regained consciousness but the events that followed were more devastating than what I've just described.
When you quote Osho saying the teacher is the one who placates you and the master is the one who hurts you but transforms you, I experience physically the feeling of being a young child back in that room again at the mercy of a someone ("the master") who is intent on hurting me. I re-live that terror, and the effects are re-inforced physically in my body. When I was child I had to repress every thought of what had happened in order to survive, and I did. The terror was always with me but frozen out of my awareness by physical contractions in my body. When an event in my 30s triggered the emotional memory of the experience (not the actual memory, which came years later), I did experience the full force of the terror that had been repressed. The terror and pain was so intense that my thoughts went constantly to suicide for the first week. I didn't know what was happening, and I thought I was going crazy. It was two years of living hell before I gained enough stability that I didn't feel like I might slip off the edge again and kill myself. The confusion was total.
In the subsequent trying to understand what happened and piece my life back together I've encountered well-meaning people who attempt to give helpful advice but don't understand at all what it's like to live with these effects at a physical level. The effects are there even if you never think about it or speak about it to anyone. And along the way I've also encountered people who are dismissive and contemptuous. I appreciate that your input was well-intended.
It seems to me now that the intense emotional numbness that allows a child to survive such experiences may have to be released a little at a time and that this can only happen in a very different environment than that in which the original trauma took place ... which would be an environment of safety and respect. The environment that triggered my three month awakening was such an environment. And I know from my time on the satsang scene that emotional violence has status in some spiritual circles. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2011 : 5:29:49 PM
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Makemerry,
Emotional violence never has a place in our progress. A little emotional disturbance can help break a locked in pattern. That is what I believe Osho was describing.
I have not experienced the satang scene, my path has originated out of trying to be a good husband and father to my three teenage daughters.
Also, I was not talking about the anger you feel towards the event ( you will find it there behind the terror). That is to big to tackle now. I was talking about the anger you feel about people like me who give you trite responses when they can never really understand your terror and pain. The irritation that you feel around that is a level that you can watch and not let your ego suck you up into it. Feel free to be irritated with me, I can take it, but try to watch. If you can step back, watch and understand that, it will help you unravel the larger pains.
Peace & Love, Jeff |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 12:07:46 AM
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Jeff
Let me see if I can recap this dialog between you and Makemerry.
Advice: Here is a quotation. I think it might help.
Response: That quotation was not helpful.
Advice: Please re-read the quotation. I still think it could help.
Response: The quotation is still not helpful -- it is on some level terrifying. What is needed here is respect.
Advice: Please re-read same quotation. It could help.
Jeff, in my view, that kind of refusal to relent is the sort of communication pattern Makemerry is describing with terms like unhelpful, insensitive, arrogant and disrespectful. Not that Makemerry needs my defense. My focus is on the style of communication you are using. What would it take shake your conviction about the rightness of that quotation in this situation?
Be |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 12:36:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by makemerry
Thanks for the various thoughts, suggestions, and hugs....
I will perhaps look at some of the other resources people suggested, thanks.
Makemerry
Hello! Welcome to the AYP Support forum (where the yoga practices taught in the lessons are "advanced," but where the forum participants are all over the map).
I have been watching your postings here with great interest. I very much resonated with your personal stories about what happened when you were getting advice from well-known teachers who are sometimes recommended here on the forum. I think your stories provide a good yellow flag of caution about the limitations of what these teachers offer. It seems to me that there is a similar yellow flag being raised about advice you are receiving on this sub-forum: "American Guru Tradition, Non-Guru..."
In past writings, I have seen Yogani raise similar yellow flags about what these teachers do. What is needed, in his view, and what is offered here in the Main Lessons, is an alternate approach, one that is safe, and respectful of one's own particular needs. The center of the AYP approach is aimed at cultivating inner silence through Deep Meditation. It is done as a twice-daily practice. It is self-paced. Remember the tale of the tortes and the hare? AYP works like the tortes where slow and steady wins the race.
The AYP Support Forum has various sub-forums. If we are doing Deep Meditation, we can go to the sub-form on Deep Meditation to get support for our practice. I saw that you said you might look at some of the suggested resources. I want to echo that, and encourage you, if you feel so led, to take a look at the Main Lessons starting with the first lesson.
Thanks for your courage in coming here and sharing your perspective. I personally feel I have learned something useful.
Bewell
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Edited by - bewell on Feb 27 2011 01:33:34 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 01:57:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by makemerry
I have tried many practices in the 20 years since these memories began to surface, including qigong, yoga, meditation ... thousands of hours of various practices ... and its hard to tell what difference those have made.
Now that you are at AYP, I request you to try 20 minutes of Spinal Breathing as well:
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
The childhood trauma memories are just memories afterall. They will fade away when you die. Just like the memories/traumas of your childhood of your previous birth. Do you remember the traumas you had in your previous birth?
Most people who suffer childhood traumas either go insane, commit suicide or become criminals themselves.
But I see you are pretty courageous. Use it.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 09:59:08 AM
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Bewell,
My comments were for Makemerry and have nothing to do with adyashanti. Anger is easier to watch then terror. Connecting with the watcher is the key to moving on. I am sure we are all trying to help.
Peace & Love,
Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Feb 27 2011 12:23:23 PM |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 3:48:48 PM
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Manigma, why do you recommen d 20 min of spinal breathing and not 20 min of deep meditation? In my understanding we should do spinal breathing only with deep meditation.
Hi Makemerry,
you have offered yourself the solution to it already. You need a stable, respectfull environement. If that's what you feel you need go for it. As others already pointed out, I would recommend to start reading the lessons here. You will see that they are very gentle and reinforce to listen to yourself. Only you know what is good for you. If you encounter any problems with the practice just go to the apropriate forum and post your problem. People here will try to help you (at least that's what I've experienced). Also the lesson will help you to create a stable routine in your life. Something you always can go back to once you have established it.
I wish you all the best!
Yaming |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 3:57:38 PM
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| Yes Yaming, I agree. deep meditation has a calming, stabilizing effect. Most cases i have heard of instability and overload outside AYP were from too much pranayama. All practices should be based upon meditation. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 5:28:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Anger is easier to watch then terror. Connecting with the watcher is the key to moving on.
Jeff
I think what you call "connecting with the watcher" might be something like what Yogani calls "the dawn of the witness." Yogani writes:
"....what we are cultivating with our practice (of Deep Meditaiton) -- abiding inner silence, stillness, pure bliss consciousness, sat-chit-ananda, the witness, etc. All of these add up to the same thing -- an increasing sense of calmness, steadiness and peace coming up behind our sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings. At some point we notice that, while everything within and around us is moving, something fundamental within us is not moving. We have called it "the witness."
http://www.aypsite.org/350.html
A stable practice of meditation can provide a safe place for cultivating witness consciousness. The dawn of the witness is the dawn of an improved ability to move on, to let go of old hurts, to be clear and present in daily life.
Is that something like what you were trying to make happen? I'm curious, do you currently practice AYP Deep Meditation twice daily? Or, if not, something like it?
Be |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 27 2011 5:42:25 PM |
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makemerry
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 6:16:09 PM
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I stumbled on AYPsite while doing a google search for critical perspectives on Adyashanti's teaching practices. The web is full of Adya's promotional material and people who adulate him. My experience with him was different, extremely unhelpful, shaming .... I had encountered emotional violence elsewhere in my search for healing via various spiritual paths and wanted to understand this kind of emotional abuse better and speak to it. I think many people who are still in the grips of serious trauma turn to various "spiritual" paths in a desperate effort to find healing and instead are further confused, abused and traumatized ... and they innocently believe that they deserve this abuse, that they are wrong and the "master" is right. Many people who submitted innocently to abuse as children believe with the very same innocence that submitting to abuse from a teacher is the path to awakening. People with PTSD may be particularly vulnerable to the messages of spiritual teachers who hold out the possibility of end of suffering, and to being further injured by the ignorance, arrogance and emotional immaturity of the teacher. I haven't really found any discussion of exactly the kind of thing I'm exploring here, so perhaps I'll find a place where such a discussion would be a better fit and start one.
Thanks for the various well-intended input from AYP forum people. It's my experience that we all do the best we can to help given the degree of understanding we have, and we've all probably said or done things out of ignorance that we look back on and wish we could correct or amend. I've done lots of breathing exercises, smiling exercises, heart exercises, but perhaps I'll take a look at and/or try the beginning practices suggested here. Blessings. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 6:33:42 PM
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Yes the beginning practices are very good and powerful. I am still doing just those after years and am happy with just that.
I think you could be right about some teachers. Some are probably not even aware of what they are doing. and people who have been abused before sometimes feel at home with more abuse because they are used to it.
Often abuse is passed on from one person to the next. So the greatest thing is the person who decides to end it and start out fresh. At first it can seem like something's missing if you are used to always being controlled by someone. But eventually you start enjoying the peace of being out on your own.
Meditation is the first thing taught in the lessons, it's easy, and after a while it brings that peace. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 7:20:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by makemerry
....perhaps I'll find a place where such a discussion would be a better fit and start one.
Makemerry
We have a rule on the AYP Support Forum against what we call "guru bashing." Lots of people come here and talk about teachers or gurus that they have found helpful, and there is discussion around what is helpful. But there is not much of the sort of critical perspective that you have offered. What sets your sharing apart from "guru bashing," in my opinion, and in the opinion of one other person I spoke to, is that everything you say comes out of your direct personal experience. Our responses to you are more responses to your personal situation rather than to what you have said about teachers. That is mainly because (to the extent that we are in agreement) we do not want to get into "guru bashing." I agree with the rule against "guru bashing," nevertheless, I will say that what you have said about the teachers you have mentioned resonates with me as quite insightful, and your courage to share gives me encouragement to claim my own sense of what works for me, and what does not work. I love truthfulness about experience. It helps me to calibrate my inner compass.
Best wishes in finding a place with a better fit for what you want to offer.
With Gratitude and Respect,
Be |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 27 2011 7:43:44 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 7:30:27 PM
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Be,
Yes, by watcher I meant the same thing as witness.AVP Meditation is one path, but it also works to try to connect during the moments of strong emotion. Seeing yourself getting mad helps you realize that you are not your ego. Will send you a PM to answer the rest of your questions.
Peace & Love. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 10:00:34 PM
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Hi Makemerry,
Welcome to the AYP Forum.
It sounds like you've had a rough time in many ways overall, and there are many people here who've found AYP quite helpful in healing from major personal issues of various types.
I started this thread on Adyashanti (over four years ago, I was surprised to see, when I just checked! ) ... and I've spent quite a bit of time with him over the last decade, though much less in the last four years or so, due to moving from the Bay Area, where Adya primarily teaches.
I also know a few people who know him quite well, and who volunteer at his office, etc. (as I used to do, as well).
All of that is "preface" to saying: the Adyashanti I know is a very nice, even-keel, caring person. That's not said to dispute your experience in any way -- your experience was your experience, of course. This post is offered more in the spirit of "additional information for what it's worth", is all.
If someone said, "Well, I attended a satsang with Adyashanti and he seems okay." .... that wouldn't say much, since you did the same.
I've attended literally hundreds of satsangs and intensives with Adya; I've had "hanging out in the parking lot after satsang" chats with him ("way back when" ... 2004ish); I've talked at length on quite a few occasions with his wife Annie (now Mukti), too.
And again - none of this is said to dispute your experience, for several reasons - ranging from simple respect, to getting that a given person (Adyashanti, in this case) can, and will be, experienced a bit differently by each person who interacts with them, to (finally) having been close to people with PTSD, and understanding some of the dynamics (as much as someone without PTSD can, anyway).
I just wanted to mention that based on a lot of exposure to Adyashanti, his wife, and many of the people in leadership positions within his organization over literally years, and sometimes attending satsang multiple times weekly ... my experience has always been that Adyashanti is a kind and caring person.
Who knows why there's such a vast difference in our experiences with him?
Not entirely surprising, though -- nearly every spiritual teacher has those who like them and resonate with them, and those who "anything but 'resonate'" with them.
I'm not sure you'll find much negative on Adyashanti, mostly because, by any standards I know, anyway, he's not considered "hardcore" in the way that some teachers are (belittling students, actively abusing them verbally, etc. etc. ... there are several "anti-guru" sites around the Web that deal with such things; we tend to not recommend them, here, because they're filled with negative focus, which is not helpful to liberation).
Anyway, I hope maybe this alternate perspective is useful.
If you do want to start another discussion, please feel free (presuming you meant here, at the AYP Forum) ... though I would echo what Bewell said:
There's a fairly clear line between describing one's experience, and actively "bashing" the given teacher, and we just ask that you stay on the "experience" side of that line.
The entire reason for this rule is that is just helps keep any related conversation useful and productive, as opposed to turning into a "flame-fest" between those who like a given teacher, and those who don't.
Plus, we're a very positive-minded group overall, and any argumentative discussion takes away from the positive "vibe" we're committed to, here.
And please know: everything you've posted so far has been 100% fine ... I'm just adding my "2 Cents" to what Bewell said, regarding guru bashing, since you mentioned the intention of starting a topic meant to discuss Adyashanti in a critical manner.
And again, that, in and of itself is fine, and even welcome (we'd tell you if it wasn't), as long as it is intended to be a two-way conversation regarding your sense of criticism about Adyashanti.
Again, welcome to the AYP Forum.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- For What It's Worth, if I had to name the two spiritual teachers who've been most helpful in my own journey, they would be Yogani and Adyashanti.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2011 : 03:29:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
Manigma, why do you recommen d 20 min of spinal breathing and not 20 min of deep meditation? In my understanding we should do spinal breathing only with deep meditation.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yes Yaming, I agree. deep meditation has a calming, stabilizing effect. Most cases i have heard of instability and overload outside AYP were from too much pranayama. All practices should be based upon meditation.
This pranayama will quiet the nervous system, and provide a fertile ground for deep meditation.
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
Spinal Breathing is a very active/dynamic form of pranayama.
I somehow feel this would work great for makemerry.
Sometimes the witness consciousness needs a good shakeup!
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2011 : 11:37:29 AM
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quote:
This pranayama will quiet the nervous system, and provide a fertile ground for deep meditation.
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
yes, but it is also clearly stated that it is not recomended to practice Spinal breathing without meditation. As you say it is providing a fertil ground. But without deep meditation as a follow up, you risk to plant something else there, that you might not like...
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2011 : 2:14:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
...it also works to try to connect during the moments of strong emotion. Seeing yourself getting mad helps you realize that you are not your ego.
Jeff,
I understand. I'm guessing that moments of strong emotion, or trauma, or emergency (when the house is burning) are the most common times when people (who aren't into yoga) go into aware witness state. What they don't learn from that is how to cultivate witness without trauma. That is where you are saying the "master" comes in, to disturb the wound of past truama just enough to create or stimulate awareness of the witness, and thus to enable the process of letting go of old hurts.
Be |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 28 2011 2:16:00 PM |
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American Guru Tradition, Non-Guru - Adyashanti
