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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 3:47:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Actually (KIRTANCANDOR MOMENT)  - I just got this - and Thanks to all who have helped (the related lightbulb fizzle and pop ) - just as some of the audience laughter, and/or "insipid" video content bugs some of you ..... the entire dynamic of teacher-watching bugs my ego, big-time.
Rather than "does this teacher have consciousness and/or information, which can be helpful to my consciousness and/or practice?" - the key question seems to be, "Where is this teacher less than he seems to be? What are his failings?"
Not only do *I* viscerally react to my perception of this (I feel kinda like, "Damn - leave the poor guy alone; he's a nice guy, and a good teacher - and as far as I know, he's never hurt anyone, nor does he have an unethical or unkind bone in his body!"
Good point Buddy... My answer to that is simple... In my (personal/distorted perception) there are two camps who get criticised (personally)... (1) the Gurus-Behaving-Badly (and thats another thread); (2) the self-proclaimed Enlightened Ones (eg Adyashanti, Tolle).
If I set myself up as a teacher with the byline "hey I dont know much guys but maybe something makes sense" I guess no-one is gonna pick holes in me...
On the other hand if I say I am fully-enlightened then I gotta expect that I am setting myself up to be judged.. Its a totally different claim isnt it... a Tall Order...
If you then start screwing the young attractive female followers, or making more and more money and buying Rolls Royces, or let your girlfriend take your retreats instead (not Adyashanti) or show small incipient signs that maybe you are not 100.00% safely-perfected-for-good-and-might-start-slipping-backwards then people (well some!) are on your case bigtime.
Its analogous to saying "Hey I Am A Perfected Being" - then folks are bound to check you out for that!
quote:
Though however - per my candor in this post - I'll say the same to you, and everyone (meaning: my goal is never to be offensive -- but simply to "call 'em as I see 'em", in ways I hope are helpful to us all.
Well given the page number we are on you have offered great interest with this one 
yours imperfectly
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Mar 23 2007 5:54:09 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 12:26:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
"I've heard others...mention the need to just "Be" and to realize that this just 'is what it is' and the need to realize "this" or "that" as all that there is, alluding that being in the "now" or "present" moment, as being the ultimate reality?"
"I've searched various spiritual teachings and can't find anything mentioning the need to just "Be..."
Hi VIL:
Well then, here's another Scriptural quote for your collection. 
"Be>still>and know>That>I AM>GOD." Psalm 46:10
The original Hebrew word (raphah), translated in the Psalm as "still", means to "let go"..."to cease all activity" of both mind and body...as if becoming "faint" and "weak", and implies being "silent" as used in this verse. Interestingly, "raphah" also means "to be healed" and "repaired" or "made whole".
The original Hebrew word (yada), translated in the Psalm as "know", means "to perceive", "to learn" or "to discover" by "seeing" or directly "observing".
Hence, when re-phrased to convey the ancient Hebrew meaning for the modern reader, this verse states "I AM THAT made whole in Stillness...GOD", or "I AM THAT discovered in Silence...GOD".
I think that these are more accurate English renderings of the original Hebrew, and resonate more clearly as an 'Ultimate Reality' for me. 
Hari OM!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Mar 24 2007 07:09:24 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4515 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 02:28:19 AM
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Hi Meg,
What a fast moving thread... we must be back into Guru-bashing mode!, Or perhaps we have moved onto Disciple bashing mode... even better!
quote:
Hi Christi! :) ... But it's true that a few of us find the "disappearance into a blaze of Divine light" that you referred to (with irony, I know) to be an unnecessary component to enlightenment. In fact, I find the superhero version to be rather vulgar and burlesque. This is comic book, good guy/bad guy material; not the stuff of living in the real world, or even of being enlightened in the real world. In short, it's just more ego.
Actually that wasn't a reference to Enlightenment. That was a reference to Assention. It doesn't have much to do with enlightenment, except that you have to be enlightened to be able to do it. It's a pretty cool trick. There is a beautiful description of it in the Bible. It is probably in the Gospel of John (I haven't got my bible on me to look it up). Check out what happens to Christ after his resurection. There is also a description of it at the end of the Secrets of Wilder novel by Yogani.
Just as an aside, the blaze of divine light bit would be how others would have perceived what happened as Jesus rose up to heaven. The experience from the point of view of Jesus (and for you when your time comes) would have been very different. It just goes to show, how others perceive us is always different than how we perceive ourselves.
quote:
thank you for inviting the candor
You're welcome... any time.
Christi |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 09:17:46 AM
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Good post, Doc. It seems similar to what Eckhart Tolle talks about and I've been reading up on his experience, since Anthem11 mentioned him within a previous post.
I've been feeling down, lately, and I know I need to BE, in the NOW, in the moment, where there is only THIS and no suffering is possible, but it's kind of hard when God takes everything from you (dark night of the soul stuff) and except for that one experience with the Self a couple months ago when the sun was at perihelion to the earth for the year. (I thought it was the moon, but it was the sun). Other than that it's like walking alone in the desert, compared to years back when my Kundalini first awoke, when I was in siddhi heaven (I can hear the gasps, now, LOL. 'What did he just say?!, LOL, kidding, sort of):  . Anway, I was wondering if you had any Spiritual Writings concerning the affect of the sun and planets on the soul? Or planetary cycles in relation to the Souls development?:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 24 2007 09:21:36 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 11:17:08 AM
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Mike said: On the other hand if I say I am fully-enlightened then I gotta expect that I am setting myself up to be judged.. Its a totally different claim isnt it... a Tall Order...
Good answer Mike, for gurus in general.
Do you think Adyashanti and Tolle have set themselves up as enlightened? I'm inclined to think that Tolle has, very directly. About Adyashanti, I know much less. But his 'followers' openly talk about him as enlightened. So it doesn't look like it's a priority with Adyashanti to stop it.
Kirtanman:
the entire dynamic of teacher-watching bugs my ego, big-time
Aha, I knew there was something going on. Well, you feel as you feel when spiritual teachers are scrutinized. How do you feel though if you see a secular schoolteacher teaching a mistake? I mean if a schoolteacher is putting up 1+1=3 on the board, or having the students take down wrong spellings?
That actually makes me cringe. I get very uncomfortable. I feel that something wrong is going on. Whether I am right or wrong about whether the teacher is right or wrong, my discomfort is actually social conscience.
How do you feel when J. Krishnamurti pooh-poohs yogic techniques and practices (including mantras specifically)? I feel like I would feel if I see a teacher, entrusted with thousands of students, putting 1+1=3 on the board and having all the loving, pious students, take it down with love and devotion.
This discomfort has nothing to do with wanting to find fault. If you think it generally does, you should examine that because it could be the reason why teacher-watching bugs you. Anyone who takes a high place needs to be scrutinized highly. It's our social duty.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 12:19:34 PM
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Hi Christi - yes, I'm aware of both ascensions to which you refer. One is definitely a work of fiction; the other, well, who knows. But both were the apotheosis of an awakening, and as such had everything to do with enlightenment. I'm sure that I sound like a guru- and ascension-basher, but honest, it's not my intention to sully the characters of those for whom I have great respect, Adyashanti being one of them. He's a great teacher to me at this juncture in my life, as is my upstairs neighbor, who likes to play Judas Priest on Sunday mornings. So many opportunities to expand! :)
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 12:24:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Do you think Adyashanti and Tolle have set themselves up as enlightened? I'm inclined to think that Tolle has, very directly. About Adyashanti, I know much less.
Hi David
I first came across him in an interview with the Buddhist magazine Tricyle in Fall 2004 called 'The Taboo of Enlightenment'. Despite the fact that this is 'old material' the Tricycle website has it as 'subscription only'
However I also found a snip of the interview for you at http://www.nonduality.com/hl1892.htm (big webpage - if you search for Adyashanti I think its at the second mention). To give you a flavour (and perhaps narrow down one minor uncertainty about the universe )
quote:
How has your own enlightenment changed the way you function in the world: your relationships, your family life, your everyday behavior? Does being enlightened mean that you never get angry or reactive or make big mistakes?
There’s no such thing as never getting angry. Enlightenment can and
does use all the available emotions. Otherwise, we would have to
discount Jesus for getting pissed off in the temple and kicking over
the table. The idea that enlightenment means sitting around with a
beatific smile on our faces is just an illusion.
At a human level, enlightenment means that you are no longer divided
within yourself, and that you no longer experience a division between
yourself and others. Without any inner division, you stop
experiencing most of the usual forms of reactivity.
...<and later>...
Would you claim that you are enlightened?
Well, no, not with a straight face. I would say enlightenment is
enlightened and awakeness is awake. It’s not an experience; it’s a
fact.
If you read the article you will get a feel that the last comment is in the context of the Buddhist view of no-self in the first place (ie nothing to get/be enlightened).
I do recall the whole article was an interesting read... at the time I recall my reactions were (a) that this kind of 'enlightenment for all' democratisation and de-tabooing was a good thing, whilst on the other hand (b) arguably it fits in with the general history of Zen lowering the bar as to what enlightenment is, watering-down the definition (eg the whole satori concept (not one the Buddha ever mentioned)).
HTH
Mike |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 1:23:04 PM
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Hi to all!
I found this article about Light Ascension pretty interesting. Perhaps some of you will, too!
www.lightascension.com/
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 5:22:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Adya: I understand. Open all the way.
Kirtanman: But that's crazy, it's too bi ...
Adya: Open. All. The. Way.
Been meaning to address this. I'd like to check a couple of things to see if I'm in synch with what you're describing. I'll phrase it as questions, just 'cuz I can't think of another way. I'm not trying to lead the witness! I certainly won't be disappointed if you don't agree on any/all points:
You experienced, I'm guessing, that what "got" you to the all-the-wayness was bhakti? And this vastly improved your realization of what bhakti is? And what you experienced on the other side of this (so to speak) was a kundalini opening? And that what got you there wasn't a pushing, but, rather, a courage to cease a lifelong habit of pushing THE OTHER WAY?
If not, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Hey, i'm interested regardless! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 24 2007 5:28:53 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 5:50:18 PM
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Thanks, Doc, I'll check out the links:
VIL |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2007 : 7:34:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
A great question that gets at the practical aspects of non-dualism versus dualism. Kirtanman gave a good answer, and in it we can see both the line and the overlap between non-dual and dual approaches.
etc etc
Yogani, it's taken four days of mulling over your posting to get straight in my head where you're coming from with some of your terms and distinctions. "Crossing over" was a particularly confusing term for me.
I get it now, though, and it makes total sense to me. You're talking about dualistic versus non-dualistic APPROACHES to an awakening to non-duality. And by "crossing over", you mean a hybrid approach -crossing between dual approaches (e.g. yoga) and non-dual ones (e.g. vedanta, advaita, jnana, Adyashanti). It's strange that i was confused about that, as I've tried to use such an approach myself!
Those who've shared my confusion will hopefully get something out of a clarification I've posted here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2315 |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4515 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 05:27:07 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
Mike said: On the other hand if I say I am fully-enlightened then I gotta expect that I am setting myself up to be judged.. Its a totally different claim isnt it... a Tall Order...
Good answer Mike, for gurus in general.
Do you think Adyashanti and Tolle have set themselves up as enlightened? I'm inclined to think that Tolle has, very directly. About Adyashanti, I know much less. But his 'followers' openly talk about him as enlightened. So it doesn't look like it's a priority with Adyashanti to stop it.
Is it a problem if enlightened beings say that they are enlightened? Wouldn't they be doing the world a great disservice if they didn't and just kept quiet about it?
quote:
How do you feel when J. Krishnamurti pooh-poohs yogic techniques and practices (including mantras specifically)? I feel like I would feel if I see a teacher, entrusted with thousands of students, putting 1+1=3 on the board and having all the loving, pious students, take it down with love and devotion.
And how do you know that Krishnamurti is saying anything wrong when he says that yogic practices (and mantras specifically) are dangerous for the majority of people, should be avoided and will not lead to enlightenment? The only thing that would conclusively demonstrate that Krishnamurti was wrong is if there were now loads of people who have practiced yoga, and mantra japa, and are now enlightened. Who are all these people who have practiced yoga and are now enlightened as a result of their practices? Can you name any of them?
Christi |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 09:57:33 AM
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Hi Christi:
Excellent point! It has been said that a tree is known by it's fruit, right? OK. We see the 'trees', but where is the 'fruit'?
Hari OM!
Doc |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 11:01:42 AM
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Christi said:
Is it a problem if enlightened beings say that they are enlightened? Wouldn't they be doing the world a great disservice if they didn't and just kept quiet about it?
No, I don't think that would in itself be a problem.
However, words do not have pre-given meaning. The English word "Enlightened" is no exception to that. It does in fact carry all sorts of connotations in so many minds that are not necessarily rightly applicable to the person who says that they are enlightened. Rightly or wrongly, so many people receive the claim as though it indicates some sort of perfection, extreme purity or genius -- a superhero sort of thing. Your own posts Christi suggest to me that you conceive of enlightenment in that way.
With a powerful, wildcard word like that, people who allow a word to apply to them should take responsibility for what the word connotes in practice. In practice, it connotes a very, very, high place. My point above is that if a person accepts a very high place they should be scrutinized highly. That in itself is an answer to a possible implication which can be read from what Kritanman said, (not that he is necessarily saying it himself), that scrutinizing teachers is inherently coming from a negative, fault-finding place.
And how do you know that Krishnamurti is saying anything wrong when he says that yogic practices (and mantras specifically) are dangerous for the majority of people, should be avoided and will not lead to enlightenment?
Actually, I've never said he calls them dangerous at all, or even talks about a 'majority' of people. He pooh-poohs them, indicating that they are nonsense. I know it to be wrong because I have experienced a lot of their power, particularly to assist in the process of 'enlightenment'.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 11:08:27 AM
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It doesn't help the world or yourself to go around proclaiming you're enlightened. People will just follow you around and split into two opposing groups, and talk about you. Both groups will want you to prove it, which you can't. All you can do is make enlightened statements and enjoy your life while people either worship or hate you, all the while invading your space and time.
So enlightened people usually choose to be unknown. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 2:48:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"So enlightened people usually choose to be unknown."
Ah, yes...the Hidden Treasures!
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Fran
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 5:34:59 PM
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Just sat and read the whole of this thread in one sitting, having recently got interested in Adyashanti's teaching's. I think he offers a direct and clear approach to awakening and expresses it all so eloquently and simply and like it is possible for us all- the buddha is in all of us. It allows you to accept what is now, and helps you to recognize egoic tendancies- I feel it helps me with what I have experienced as the more difficult aspects of kundalini awakening- that it is when my ego has taken front seat- as opposed to the true self which is always there alongside i.e. the depression I have felt at times I think relates to the 'ego' feeling so despairing about the apparent loss of self and deciding to see it in negative terms. I feel he presents teaching very humbly and that this would help protect against too much of a projection and putting on a pedestal from people interested in his teachings.
I feel people who are awakened may or may not wish to share and teach from their experience. For some, they may have great skills at passing on their acquired wisdom and would benefit the world through their teachings (like Adyashanti, Tolle...), for others it may be a quiet wisdom they emit as they go about an outwardly appearing normal life.. . There are many more things I would like to draw on from this interesting thread, but it is my time for sleep now... |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 10:53:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fran
I feel people who are awakened may or may not wish to share and teach from their experience. For some, they may have great skills at passing on their acquired wisdom and would benefit the world through their teachings, for others it may be a quiet wisdom they emit as they go about an outwardly appearing normal life.. .
Yes, and some are natural born leaders while others are not. I recall that in his book Emptiness Dancing, Adyashanti refers to his zen teacher, a woman he studied with for many years and under whom he became enlightened. She became ill at some point and was no longer able to teach, so she dropped the role of teacher and did menial tasks in the zen center, and quite happily. He didn't say specifically whether or not she was enlightened, but I don't know that it matters; her humility and lack of ego made a great impact on him. |
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meenarashid
76 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 9:59:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Hi Christi:
Excellent point! It has been said that a tree is known by it's fruit, right? OK. We see the 'trees', but where is the 'fruit'?
Hari OM!
Doc
aum
all you guys are the fruit!
been reading many posts here for a while .....
really beautiful fruits too
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Edited by - meenarashid on Mar 27 2007 10:26:46 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 01:07:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
quote:
Originally posted by Fran
I feel people who are awakened may or may not wish to share and teach from their experience. For some, they may have great skills at passing on their acquired wisdom and would benefit the world through their teachings, for others it may be a quiet wisdom they emit as they go about an outwardly appearing normal life.. .
Yes, and some are natural born leaders while others are not. I recall that in his book Emptiness Dancing, Adyashanti refers to his zen teacher, a woman he studied with for many years and under whom he became enlightened. She became ill at some point and was no longer able to teach, so she dropped the role of teacher and did menial tasks in the zen center, and quite happily. He didn't say specifically whether or not she was enlightened, but I don't know that it matters; her humility and lack of ego made a great impact on him.
Her name is Arvis Justi; she regularly attends Adya's satsangs, and volunteers quite a bit, in the Open Gate Sangha office (which is staffed by volunteers). Take a sweet little old grandma, and cross her with the Buddha -- and that's basically Arvis.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4515 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 1:26:58 PM
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Hi Meena,
Welcome to the forum
quote:
aum
all you guys are the fruit!
been reading many posts here for a while .....
really beautiful fruits too
Well said
I agree entirely... There are some very beautiful fruits here.
it is early days, but it is certainly starting to look like Krishnamurti was wrong...
Christi
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meenarashid
76 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 1:41:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Meena,
Welcome to the forum
]
Well said
I agree entirely... There are some very beautiful fruits here.
it is early days, but it is certainly starting to look like Krishnamurti was wrong...
Christi
aum thank you for the warm welcome
much love to you
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 12:36:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike
Anyway Kirtanman - I dont see you being anyones fool. Associating with the wise (and does it matter if they are 90% wise, 95% wise, 99% wise or 100% wise when the rest of us struggle to get to 50%) has gotta be a cool thing to do... better than the average american who I read recently watches something like 5hrs a day tv on average 
Peace
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the kind words, and insightful comments.
I see certain parallels between Adya and Tolle as well - and I know Adya thinks and speaks highly of Tolle, I don't know if Tolle is even aware of Adya - but per Adya's rising star with Sounds True (producer / publisher of many Tolle materials as well) - this may change.
A couple of points of hopefully useful clarification, in terms of my own experience (and I totally respect if your own evaluation of Adya remains different, even after reading my words) ...
*I've never heard Adya or Tolle say "I am enlightened" - they said things like "when awakening occurred", or "when enlightenment happened" - carefully avoiding use of the personal pronoun, because, as Adya says fairly frequently, "I's don't get enlightened" (or more grammatically-correct variations on that statement).
I'm not saying that neither teacher overtly or covertly claims enlightenment in one way or another ... it's just been my experience that A. they don't trumpet it, and B. they make clear it's not personal ... which seems to be just about the best any public spiritual teacher could do in that regard (the only other option is for those who are not enlightened to state that, and despite all the extensively mixed-press he's received ... the only well-known spiritual teacher who I've heard have the humility to state that {his own non-enlightenment} is Swami Kriyananda.
The way I see it: enlightenment seems to have legitimately happened for both Adya and Tolle ... and they both seem to do their best to state this truth honestly and clearly. I don't really see how else it could be handled (or how it could be handled better).
On the "energy thing" - yeah, some teacher do "scary-magnitude" stuff with energy - either intentionally (don't know, but see that as possible) or unintentionally ... but regardless: they end up with large numbers of relative-zombie devotees, and (often, it seems) vast piles of money.
Adya (in my experience) does not seem to be one of these, or inclined to become one; if anything, he's reigned energy in, in recent times. The increased energy in my own experience ... is a result of my own increased capacity, and related experience in consciousness-value, from seeking it out, proactively (specifically with Adya - though have experienced equivalent or greater "energy boosts" from other teachers).
My guess is: energy is emanated in direct proportion to the teacher's realization, pretty much automatically (consciousness shines, in a manner rather amazingly similar to, say, the Sun) - and the experience of variety (of consciousness emanation) is more on the part of the receiver than the "sender".
*Adya actually is very shy. Like: really. He's gotten a lot more comfortable with public teaching over the years, but in small groups - he's very quiet, almost shy. I've spoken with him with anywhere between one and three other people present ... though am guessing those days are gone) - he's a truly quiet, truly humble guy (unless he's one of the best people in history at faking humility, and I don't think that's the case).
I think he's honestly enlightened, and the related humility is a natural aspect of that ... which just happens to dovetail with his natural shyness. Adya has pointed out that personality and sense-of-self don't dissolve with enlightenment ... and that some enlightened teachers are very extroverted (he has cited Yogananda as an example). Adya however is not. He may have a bit more cultural extroversion than standard Asian Buddhist teachers - but I see him as very similar; essentially humble, yet having no issue with making any direct or incisive comments which may be useful to eliciting higher consciousness in satsang attendees ... even if it is not comfortable for them to hear.
*Annie / Mukti (Adya's wife) ... actually keeps a pretty low profile. I know of one retreat they gave together (the one I mentioned), and she used to give about two satsangs a year (usually sitting in for Adya, when he was doing "whatever else") - and lately, has been leading a silent meditation group. So I don't see any "Adya letting his wife drive" kinda thing.
I didn't know Tolle even had a partner; interesting (I have a weird habit of only paying attention to the teachings .... ) <-- not a "back-handed" comment in the least; you actually have me curious ... I'll probably Google "Tolle", and see what I can learn.
"I'm out" <-- tired, done typing. (And yeah, I do type pretty fast - and sleep fairly little .... no idea what my "rate" is on either one, though ...)
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 12:39:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
...not that the spiritual realm is a separate realm, of course. Argh...words....
Got it .... no worries ....
Off to seek orthopedic stereo ....
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American Guru Tradition, Non-Guru - Adyashanti
