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makak
Slovakia
7 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 01:19:40 AM
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Hello everybody,
First things first. This is my first post on this forum and I would like to thank for everyone who’s behind, for the opportunity to discuss things I need to discuss and have no-one to discuss with.
Now, cut to the chase. I am practicing asanas for about hour, 4-5 days a week and I am meditating (mostly) daily about 25-30 minutes. My asanas practice is mostly according to Iyeangar book and my meditation is more or less like this book: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html . I am doing asanas about 3.5 years and meditation about 2.5 year. When I am mediating I am just sitting in padmasana trying to focus on my breath flowing to and from nostrils and trying not to flow with my thoughts. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes not at all, but I am just keeping going. It makes me feel better, that is for sure. Meditation makes me somehow calmer, and I am often feel peculiar “tickling” sensation between my eyebrows. This is not happening just during meditation, but it occurs even during the day and I think it is somehow related to that calmness. I am beeing long time attracted to the pranayama and I am quiet long time playing with idea to incorporate some pranayama exercise to my daily routine. The thing is, that when I am reading about pranayama there is very frequently written something like “do not try it without competent guide” and I don’t have such a guide and there is no such a person that I know in my surroundings. So I would like to ask about your opinions, if it is safe to incorporate some basic pranayama into my daily routine, nothing advanced, probably even without breath retention. I just don’t wish to hurry up things and wind up with premature kundaliny awakening or something like that.
So to sum it up, do you think it is safe to learn some basic pranayamas on my own (from books)? and if so, which pranayama will you recommend.
Thank you very much.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 05:36:06 AM
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hello makak
It should be perfectly safe to start pranayama after 2.5 years of meditation.
Have a look at the AYP spinal breathing pranayama. All the info you need to start practising it is in the lessons, starting here:
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
The lessons after this contain some questions and answers about spinal breathing, so they will be useful to look through as well.
Adding an effective pranayama to your meditation will put more power into your practice, no question about that. So you need to make sure you self-pace. If you notice too much energy flying about in the system and you get uncomfortable, you will need to trim back your practices. I recommend reading some of the AYP self-pacing lessons. If you go to the search page http://www.aypsite.org/SiteSearch.html and type in 'self-pacing' you will find quite a few pages on this topic.
Good luck! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jan 26 2015 05:37:58 AM |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 08:21:05 AM
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Hi Makak, welcome!
A basic pranayama like the one suggested by BlueRAincoat should be OK. Be careful, don't push hard, do breathe in a very, very gentle way. I say that because I have a similar path as you: I first did asan and introduced pranayama later, and I made the mistake to do pranayama with the same phisical approach I did for asanas, not having understood that pranayama is much subtler than asana, yet more powerful. The side effects were really bed, I even went in the bospital!
Edited for clarity:
This happened before my AYP practice, with a pranayama sequence from a totally different tradition. Actually, it was my mistake: after my first pranayama lessons, where the teacher showed us some pranayamas, I went on holydays and thought it would be a good idea to do a lot of pranayama. Bad idea. I did too much too often in a few days, and the effect was horrible, with chest pain and dizzyness which led me to the hospital. Before that I remember reading somewhere that improper pranayam kann kill you, which I obviously found exaggerated. But after my breakdown I have to say that, yes, pranayama can be dangerous if you push too hard and have some health issues like asthma, heart problem...
On the other hand, I think that SBP as per AYP lesson is safe. First, it is clearly stated to do it in a gentle way. Second, you begin with 5 minutes, going to 10 minutes only after some weeks. Nothing to do whith the 30 minutes pranayama sessions I did before AYP. |
Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Jan 26 2015 12:28:26 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 09:55:48 AM
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Wow Ecdyonurus, that is a rather extreme experience and probably very rare.
Spinal breathing is quite a safe technique and the instructions in the lesson are very clear - you are not supposed to force the breath. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jan 26 2015 1:24:30 PM |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 12:32:00 PM
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BlueRaincoat, I edited my post because I forgot to mention that my pranayama issue has nothing to do with SBP of AYP. Thank you for alllowing me to edit my post in order to avoid misunderstanding.  |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 1:30:13 PM
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Thank you Ecdyonurus, for letting us have the details.
It does go to show how important self-pacing is, doesn't it? |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 2:05:15 PM
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Yes, I think you can say that. Also, that experience showed me that you have to start with little amounts of practice, not jump starting with a huge amount of practices that you don''t master at all.
Currently I still do the very basic step SBP (5 minutes) although I practice it since 12 months. I only added ujjayi on the exhalation. Still learning how to trace the spine.  |
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2015 : 5:32:54 PM
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Alternate nostril pranayama can be dangerous for health.Kriya pranayama as taught bu Yogananda's SRF can also have adverse effects.
Ecdyonurus,guess you did something like nadi sodhana in huge amounts and ended with health issues.Glad to hear that you are ok now.
Back to Makak's question..As others said,pranayama described in a link provided by BlueRaincoat should be quite safe.As a kriyaban i am doing some pretty large amounts of Kriya pranayama(which is bit different than one described on this site)compared to amount AYP advises.Never had any issues whatsoever(should be noted that there are other Kriyas to be done,to complement pranayama kriya)
Another thing you might do is to look into Kriya,as pranayama is the core of Kriya,everything starts by it.Path to Static Kingdom goes exclusively thru spine and it's 6 chakras,and there is where Kriya pranayama comes into play.
However Kriya Yoga is Guru-shishya parampara,a tradition which techniques you are supposed to learn from qualified Yogacharya.
Good luck! |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2015 : 04:54:13 AM
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Hi Sol, I did a pranayama routine with different types of pranayama including nadi sodhana, in large amounts, and doing it even after some symptoms like heavy dizzyness appeared. That was my mistake. The only mistake my teacher made was omitting to warn us not to overdo pranayama.
Kriya yoga emphasizes pranayama, and considering the potential risks of improper/exaggerated pranayama this may be the reason why in kriya traditions one should always have personal guidance from a skilled teacher, I guess. |
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makak
Slovakia
7 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2015 : 06:50:19 AM
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I am really grateful, that you found some time to answer my question. Thank all of you very much.
Sol Invictus thank you for your note on nadi sodhana. Actually this pranayma is described quite often and to me, that seemed to be and ideal pranayama to start with. So thank you pointing me out of this.
I have read a little about spinal breathing pranayama and it looks really simple. I am just confused, because I have read more books with pranayama mostly from indian yoga masters and I didn't find this type of pranayama there. So if you don't mind spent little more time with me and explain me a little more if this is just some modification of classical pranyamas, or some completely new style or so, and why exactly this is good for beginning.
Thank you very much. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2015 : 07:05:35 AM
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Hi Makak
That's a fair question. You would need to know a bit more about AYP and Yogani to answer it.
After practising yoga for a few decades and trying a variety of methods, Yogani has put together the AYP method. He has taken what he considered the most effective methods from various schools of yoga including transcendental meditation, kriya yoga, bhakti yoga, tantra yoga etc. He also streamlined these techniques.
Take spinal breathing - various kriya scools present us with versions of this practice. Yogani took the essential part of it, which he deemed to be responsible for the benefits of the technique. If it looks simple, it is because it was meant to be so, but it has not been simplified at the expense of its effectiveness (some kriyabans may challenge me on this )
Hope this answers your question. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2015 : 07:15:35 AM
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| Could we say that SBP comes from kriye yoga and that this is the reason why it is hard to find writings about that pranayama? |
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2015 : 6:27:11 PM
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Hey Ecdyonurus!
That's what i have heard too,people getting dizzy and nervous after doing SRF version of Kriya pranayam.
Yeah,for some having guidance is a good thing when starting with Kriya.But in Kriya,especially in advanced phases,there is no such thing as "exaggerated pranayama"It is known for a fact that students of Lahiri Baba were encouraged to do very large amounts of pranayam such as 1728 in one sitting,which is about 10-12 hours of pranayam.Usual advice in my Kriya family is to add more sets of pranayam once when Kechari is obtained.From mine modest experience,Kriya pranayam is very stable and safe thing to practice.
Hey Makak!
What i sad about alternate nostril breathing are words of person who was student of Satyacharan Mahasay(Grandson of Lahiri Baba)with more than 50 years of Kriya under his belt.I trust him on that.
To be frank,i know very little about other sadhanas,and as far as i know Kriya pranayam vas revived by Lahiri Baba.
Kriya pranayam,with aid of other Kriyas has the power to gradually still the Prana.Prana in manifested form is dynamic and essence of whole Creation is dynamic Prana.Beyond Creation is the Static Void,Static Prana-Brahma which is Origin of everything,Absolute,Master,Bearer(Dharma),Creator,Mother,Father,Truth and so on.God,as we say in West.That is our original state.Imperative of every human should be to revert from dynamism to that Stillness,where once one is settled,birth-death cycle ends,ie. Moksha is attained.
It can be done only thru stilling the Prana to the point where it becomes static,then merging ie. state of Yoga is possible.
That happens with Kriya,on the path of six chakras in the spine.Prana has gained it's dynamism by ascending from Sahasrara ie. Static Void,Static Prana-Brahma to the Muladhara,gaining it's dynamism more and more in each of the chakras,starting with Vishuddha ending at Muladhara.To revert to Stillnes,only path possible is in reverse,starting with Muladhara and going to Kutastha ie. Ajna.Which in turn happens by austere practice of Kriya.
That is why Kriya and it's pranayam are so "good for beginning." :-)
Hi Blue!
There are differences in Kriya pranayam and AYP's version.
Here is quote from Garland of letters on those differences;
"No. 79:
Sri Guru's [Lahiri Mahasay’s] letter:
Many do not practice mantra japa chakra by chakra. When this does not happen, it results in "tamasic" Kriya [Kriya with negative qualities], and the fruit of this is also "tamasic". Therefore, during pranayam, one must keep attention on the six chakras in the spine and practice japa in each of them."
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2015 : 04:58:41 AM
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Hi Sol, your quote of Lahiri M. is certainly ight in the context of his kriya system, but it may be wrong when applied to another system.
I strongly believe that every system has its own rules/guidelines. What is right/effective in one system may be wrong/ineffective in another sytem.
Take asana sequencing as an "easy" example: some systems will recommend to stay short time in the pose and to emphasize the flow, other systems recommend to stay longer in the pose and deepen it. Both are good approaches, provided one does not mix them thereby creating overlap/imbalance.
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amuhai
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2015 : 12:37:11 AM
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Sol,
Your assertion that...”Alternate nostril pranayama can be dangerous for health.Kriya pranayama as taught bu Yogananda's SRF can also have adverse effects ..”...is erroneous and misleading without specifying the conditions under which they were practised.
Generalized blanket statements like that, without supportive evidence, particularly without your direct experience, and without specifying the nature and conditions of the practise, merely disseminate fear and confusion.
In my experience, alternate nostril breathing has never caused any problems or ill-health. In fact it can bring calmness and can be used as a prelude to spinal breathing.
Furthermore, spinal breathing or kriya yoga pranayama, as practised in SRF, has not caused any adverse effects here or in the experience of others with whom I have contact.
The key difference between AYP and SRF is breathing through the nose versus through the mouth.
From experience, nose breathing is more convenient and more suitable for long practise sessions.
In my experience, any pranayama, be it alternate nostril, Lahiri's version, SRF, AYP, Gurunath's, or KYI, when practised very rapidly without adequate pauses between the breaths , will cause problems.
There can also be problem if you do not balance the kriyas or pranayama with asanas like mahamudras or physical activity.
Lahiri's notes do recommend to do one- mahamudra for every 12 pranayams perhaps in that regard. Starting up with small numbers and gradually working to larger numbers...be it pranayama or any endeavor is generally considered the easier and safer path.
And Ecdyonurus makes a valid point about different systems being just as effective on their own.
There is no evidence that there is only one path to self-realization. Nor is there any evidence that only one particular breathing technique can bring calmness. The presence of masters in various schools of practise, with and without yoga, tibetan, christian, sufi, african, is testament to that.
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2015 : 5:25:32 PM
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Hi Amuhani,
i didn't make it up.As mentioned,first claim is coming from very experienced Yogacharya and there is no reason for me not to trust him.You can read detailed explanation on subject in "Who is that Shamachurun?" or "Purana Purusha" if you like.Also,key word hear is "can",opposed to "it will" which wasn't used.Ecdyonurus has also described issues with overdoing different types of pranayama,including Nadhi Sodhana.I think he would get same issues if overdoing only Nadhi Sodhana.Both claims were written in light of Ecdyonurus input in regard issues he had by overdoing it.My bad if i didn't make it clear,sorry about that.
Another claim about SRF,i heard it and read it from few different sources.They described how such pranayama in large amount caused nervousness and dizziness.They were those who practiced it.If they were lying then i am lying too.
I agree that experiential knowledge is no. 1,but we can't have it in each and every field,thus sometimes taking experiences from others in order to form opinion seems legit to me. |
Edited by - Sol Invictus on Jan 29 2015 6:35:42 PM |
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makak
Slovakia
7 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 02:22:02 AM
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Big THANKS to all of you, who spent a time with a reply.
From the responses it seems to me, that the type of pranayma to begin is not so important. The important thing seems to be to take it really slowly, I mean short sessions, and watchfully observe how it goes and adjust time and technique by self-observation. Did I get it? |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 03:46:10 AM
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Hi Makak,
I don't agree that the type of pranayama to begin with is not so important. IMO you should begin with the pranayama which is recommended by the yoga system/school/tradition /teacher you are following.
But I agree that it is wise to start slowly, even more if you plan to practice without the personal guidance of a teacher. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 05:38:09 AM
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Also some pranayamas are more advanced than others. You need a progression from basic to advanced.
Considering how powerful effects pranayama can have, it is prudent to take competent advice rather than jump into any technique you happen to come across. |
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makak
Slovakia
7 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 10:33:28 AM
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| Of course, sorry, I didn't write it, but I also meant that progress should be from simplest techniques to more advanced. Although, as Ecdyonurus mentioned, there are various schools/systems/and so, so I will probably have to choose. But it still could be a hard choice, because for instance some schools takes nadi sodhana as one of basics pranayamas and Sol Invictus actually warned me, that this could not be very suitable for beginners... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 11:00:55 AM
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Hi Makak,
There are different ways of practising nadi shodhana so whether it is suitable for beginners or not really depends on how it is practised. In it's most basic form which is often called sukha pranayama, it is perfectly safe for beginners.
There are additions to the practice that are often taught, including the addition of breath retention and the slowing down of the breath which makes it a more advanced practice, suitable only for people with more experience.
But in general I would agree with others here, that it is best to stick with a particular teaching method. In AYP (which is advanced level yoga) people begin with Spinal Breathing Pranayama. Later on other forms of advanced pranayama can be added including Yoni Mudra Khumbaka and Spinal Bastrika. But these more advanced techniques are added in a specific way and at a specific time in the development of the sadhana and clear instructions are given for that in the main lessons.
Pranayama is a science and can only really be taught by someone who has practised pranayama for many years and has been through an awakening and has purified their subtle body. Then they know what works and what does not through their own experience.
Christi
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2015 : 5:33:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by makak..it seems to me, that the type of pranayma to begin is not so important.
Hi Makak!
I agree with Ecdyonurus.There are differences in various types of Pranayama.Sushumna oriented Pranayama ie. Kriya pranayama/Spinal Breathing is superior type of pranayama as it promotes flow of Prana thru Sushumna nadi.That of course happens gradually,thru ardent practis of such pranayama.
quote:
Originally posted by makak
...and Sol Invictus actually warned me, that this could not be very suitable for beginners...
If you read carefully,you'll see that i didn't said .."that this could not be very suitable for beginners..."
Shared with you what i have learned from Yogacharya Chatterjee,that alternate nostril breathing can have adverse effects on health,no matter how advanced you are.
On this site,you have instructions how to execute Spinal breathing pranayama so why wouldn't you try it?
Good luck,all the best! |
Edited by - Sol Invictus on Feb 10 2015 5:38:56 PM |
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makak
Slovakia
7 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2015 : 01:03:24 AM
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Hi Sol,
sorry for misquoting you, I just related it to my situation and remembered that it is not suitable for me as a beginner.
And about SBP I am still somehow cautious, because it seems to me quite advanced practice and I really don't wish to get into any trouble, since I don't have an access to guru/instructor or someone who will guide me with this. But probably I will give it a try, but I will take it very slooowly... |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2015 : 02:19:41 AM
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Hi makak, I still do not understand which yoga system you are following.
If I understood you well, you have a relevant asana practice following the Iyengar book (which book, actually?). Then you added a form of breath meditation, which is clearly not in the Iyengar approach and may already overlap in a negatve way with your asana practice. Now, if you even add a pranayama practice from another tradition, things could become difficult.
IMO, again, you have to be very careful when you try to mix such different approaches. Even more if sou don't have any teacher guidance. |
Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Feb 11 2015 02:36:03 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2015 : 03:19:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by makak
Hi Sol,
sorry for misquoting you, I just related it to my situation and remembered that it is not suitable for me as a beginner.
And about SBP I am still somehow cautious, because it seems to me quite advanced practice and I really don't wish to get into any trouble, since I don't have an access to guru/instructor or someone who will guide me with this. But probably I will give it a try, but I will take it very slooowly...
Hi Makak,
Spinal Breathing Pranayama is an advanced practice, but it is also a very safe and stable practice. That is why it is introduced early on in the AYP lessons. It works by purifying a very stable nadi in the subtle body which is the sushumna nadi between the root and the third eye.
So no need to be worried about it. You can add it after asana practice and before meditation, beginning with 5 minutes twice a day and building up to 10 minutes twice a day.
Christi |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2015 : 05:57:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by makak
about SBP I am still somehow cautious, because it seems to me quite advanced practice and I really don't wish to get into any trouble, since I don't have an access to guru/instructor or someone who will guide me with this.
The lessons on this website are written for those who practice at home.
If you read the instructions carefully (read them a few times as you ease your way into the technique), you will know what to do. Be easy about it, don't force anything and don't rush. Any questions you may have, you can ask on this forum.
Or you can wait to find a teacher, but finding a good one might take some time. It's in your hands.
All the best |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 11 2015 06:15:36 AM |
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beginning pranayama question
