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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 09:25:51 AM
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I found this thread
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=400
and have read a lot of the links connected to it.
http://www.aypsite.org/272.html
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=376
It has given me lots of thoughts...
My relationship with the man I have been talking about in other threads has now come to a turning point. The conflicts that have been coming up have taught us both very much about our selves. We have been able to chrystalize what is the "lesson to be learned".
It turned out that we were perfectly designed to trigger our old wounds and we have handled it good so far (at least in our own opinion  ). Nevertheless, I have come to a point where I am to chose whether to stay or to leave the relationship.
My confusion is about this:
If I leave, I am not sure if I am giving in to easily due to ego-related, emotional reasons - not being able to stay in the pain when necessary, or if I am following the spirit and living my life right - leaving a relationship that is not serving me.
The question is related to the above links because the "addiction" we are talking about here, is one of the addictions that seem to be most difficult for both me and my partner (and most of the world it seems) to drop... Sexuality... sex appeal... looks...
Sexuality without love is invading the earth. Everyone is obsessed with having sex, being sexy, look good, use every sexual trigger possible to get attention and confirmation of the ego, and especially this is valid for women. As I see it, it is an extremely difficult ego-thing to drop. When I now move in more spiritual groups, I still see almost every woman wearing make-up, shave their legs, having long, sensual hair, wearing push-ups... you know, everything to catch a man or mans attention with "raw sexuality". I do it too. I am no better, although I get a stronger and stronger feeling that I am betraying my REAL self when I indulge in using simple sex appeal to get approved, so I try to stop. For example, I have stopped ripping off all my "embarrassing" hairs. I feel much more honest and true to who I am. God wanted me to have hair. Who am I to try to fight against it? For me, it is a step nearer loving my self when I let my body have the form it was inteded to have. It is only the ego that has something to loose... the gratification from others who think I look better without hairs...
Yoganis words seem to apply here: "If we are cleaning the window of our nervous system with yoga practices it is highly unproductive to be throwing dirt on the window faster than yoga can clean it off."
I have heard many describe this sex-phenomenon as "mans twisted sexuality from the MIND" that has taken over the world and Woman adapted to it/internalised it and became the "sexual object". That male energies are now changing, a "new era" is coming, but that the old sexual system is stronger than ever. This would be without judgement, though. It is just the way it is - no victim/offender roles here.
Men (and women) are conditioned into this type of loveless sexuality. The sexual triggers are there and men respond to them automatically, but it is the ego that is responding with "wanting" the sexual candy it perceives. To develop spiritually one should cultivate the sexuality into merging with love.
My wound is to have been dismissed for my looks, I am not attractive according to the social norms, I have also been used as a sex object, I have been playing the victim game for a long time. Other women have been a great threat - not only are they more beautiful than me, they also take all men's attention, especially my boyfriend's attention. In that way, my present relationship is also "abusive"... He is putting other women "before me". I notice directly when we break our "love connection" and he flies up into the mind and indulge in watching other beautiful, sexy women.
What has been so clearly revealed in our relationship is that I have no right to be judgemental about his behavior, responding with ego-emotions of hurt and anger is not constructive. I have worked on staying in the pain, looking at the feeling from outside, I fully understand why it is there... But sometimes I fail and get ego-furious, sometimes I manage to stay in connection with love and I see clearly what it is all about.
Just as in the example above, he is working with spiritual development. He is longing and working with yoga practices. He is committed to dive into it. To cultivate his sexuality from its rawness, moving from ego-sexuality to love, to show me respect, to not respond emotionally when I get emotional about it... We have discussed the subject and lately I really got to understand the lesson... To know I can let go of a relationship that is not serving me anylonger... All my attention is drawn to texts about this issue, like the one above.
But am I giving the relationship a proper chance? I mean, is it really "abusive"? Is it really not serving me although it is hurting me? It is teaching me A LOT! He is aware, he wants to change, he understands the pain etc. Is it self respect and "right living" to end it and say without blame, just being firm - this is not serving me!
Yoganis says: "But the cycle can be broken. It takes mutual understanding and commitment to do it. For this to happen there must be communication, followed by action."
What action is reasonable here? To what degree can a man detach himself from non-loving sexual responses to sexual triggers in this world of today? Are there any men who are not yet enlightened that can handle one woman with full respect in this matter? How can a man handle the obsession of "wanting" to look at beautiful, sexy women since they according to our norms are "more attractive"?
Is it any point in trying to communicate with my partner on this, or should I leave and say: "I do not want ego-sex in my life in any way, I don't want to be exposed to it or judged by its norms by someone close to me, since it is not serving me. I am ready to let go of it, even if it means let go of you." Or is that my ego talking, being afraid of getting more and more hurt?
I would very much appreciate your comments. |
Edited by - emc on Aug 22 2006 09:35:47 AM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 10:07:33 AM
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Hi EMC!
I really wish I could help you in this or offer you advice but I think that in a decision to stay with someone or break up you should only listen to yourself and not others because the responsibility is just too big. Of course easier said than done.
For unwanted hair removal I don't quite agree (see laser epilation topic hehe). I think women and men should look as good as they can including work-out, make-up, nice clothes whatever. This is not compatible with classical yoga so it may be the case that I'm wrong.
Your bf putting other girls before you doesn't sound really nice but then don't look for reasons that degrade you (other women are more attractive blah blah) because this can damage your sense of self worth. Check out the site of this dude http://www.emofree.com/. I have not studied his method in depth but the case studies look promising. Yogani recommends Byron Katie's book Loving what is. Maybe that can help so if you feel like it you could give it a go.
Hope you manage the situation in the best possible way for you.
Good luck!
Lili
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 11:51:04 AM
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quote:
Sexuality without love is invading the earth. Everyone is obsessed with having sex, being sexy, look good, use every sexual trigger possible to get attention and confirmation of the ego, and especially this is valid for women. As I see it, it is an extremely difficult ego-thing to drop. When I now move in more spiritual groups, I still see almost every woman wearing make-up, shave their legs, having long, sensual hair, wearing push-ups... you know, everything to catch a man or mans attention with "raw sexuality". I do it too. I am no better, although I get a stronger and stronger feeling that I am betraying my REAL self when I indulge in using simple sex appeal to get approved
Hi EMC,
I don't think there is anything wrong with enjoying your sexuality, it is part of being human, we are not only spirit while here on planet earth, we have these incredible bodies that allow us to live, enjoy your humanness and what your body brings to you.
At the same time I agree, looking outward for approval is a one way ticket to suffering and taking yourself away from you. Approve of yourself, accept yourself, find your own inner beauty and sexiness rather than comparing yourself to what society says is beautiful and sexy.
quote:
Other women have been a great threat - not only are they more beautiful than me, they also take all men's attention, especially my boyfriend's attention. In that way, my present relationship is also "abusive"... He is putting other women "before me". I notice directly when we break our "love connection" and he flies up into the mind and indulge in watching other beautiful, sexy women.
It sounds like you already know your own truth here. You realize that you are threatened by other women. You perceive outer beauty to be the only factor for attraction and you believe that because your boyfriend enjoys another woman's beauty that it means he is choosing them over you. Is that true? Who is he with? Is he being abusive to you by being true to what he feels or are you being abusive to yourself by interpreting what is going on in a negative way for yourself? Should he pretend not to enjoy beauty to appease your fears? Do you not enjoy the beauty of other men or at least a flower? The relationship is not abusive unless you label it with your mind that way. The only person who can abuse you is you with your own thoughts about what you perceive. Is he putting other women before you or are you putting other women before you? If you investigate your thinking you will find your truth.
quote:
To know I can let go of a relationship that is not serving me any longer... All my attention is drawn to texts about this issue, like the one above.
You know all your own answers but your pain is simply encouraging you to deny them. As you point out, it sounds like your relationship is serving you very well. It is a mirror for you that is helping you to bring yourself back home to you.
quote:
What action is reasonable here? To what degree can a man detach himself from non-loving sexual responses to sexual triggers in this world of today?
Is this a man's (or a woman's) mission? Why spend so much time thinking about what we "should" be thinking and feeling? Why not just be as we are? Acceptance.
quote:
Is it any point in trying to communicate with my partner on this, or should I leave and say: "I do not want ego-sex in my life in any way, I don't want to be exposed to it or judged by its norms by someone close to me, since it is not serving me. I am ready to let go of it, even if it means let go of you." Or is that my ego talking, being afraid of getting more and more hurt?
Ego-sex and its norms can't judge you, only you can judge you. You are doing so by measuring yourself against these so called norms. The universe is showing you an area in your life where you hurt yourself, are you going to run away from this incredible opportunity and gift to end your suffering in this regard? You can, there is no judgement in this, but will you have to face it at some point in the future?
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 1:46:57 PM
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Hello emc. You know my opinion on the particulars, and I won't repeat them here. There has been an enormous amount of confusion around your relationship, centered mostly around ego and sexuality. These can be difficult issues for women, especially those who are no longer Cover Girl material. Sensuality and attractiveness emanate from your center, which sounds like the cliche of the century until you start doing deep yoga practices, and then you realize the truth of those words. If your man is attracted to other women, I don't see that as a big deal. Let him look, and use the raw, hollowed-out energy of jealousy as grist for your spiritual growth. But if he's taunting you with his looking, and if he's playing with your insecurites, that's another story. Who needs that bullsh9t? That kind of relationship is so completely boring to me. If I have to perform and look stunning and transform myself into a caricature of womanhood just to keep someone interested in me, then it's time to look inward and find the source of this self-imposed suffering.
You've been working really hard on this, and I admire you a lot. But emc, there is no reason to remain in a relationship which is not serving you or making your life better. It's heavy and tedious and boring. Forget about the sex - it comes and goes - and frankly it sounds like you may need a break from it to clear out yer head. In the meantime, get a vibrator.  Seriously tho - men and women should have a fantastic time together, doing whatever - but at some point it really ought to be FUN, else why bother? Lastly, if the great Intelligence of the Universe wanted us lady-folk to have hairy nether-regions, it wouldn't have invented the razor. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 1:50:55 PM
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quote:
Approve of yourself, accept yourself, find your own inner beauty and sexiness rather than comparing yourself to what society says is beautiful and sexy.
My inner does not contain any beauty or sexiness. It is pure love. What is there to be beautiful or sexy? Who is there to be beautiful or sexy?
quote:
Do you not enjoy the beauty of other men or at least a flower?
Any likes or dislikes I have is only expressions from the ego. The spirit enjoys a pimple or a scar as much as a flower.
I thought the spiritual journey was about understanding and living this truth. Isn't indulging in the likes and dislikes of the ego, feeding it and making it believe it is "right"? Isn't it to "be throwing dirt on the window faster than yoga can clean it off"?
quote:
Is this a man's (or a woman's) mission? Why spend so much time thinking about what we "should" be thinking and feeling? Why not just be as we are? Acceptance.
I asked
quote:
What action is reasonable here? To what degree can a man detach himself from non-loving sexual responses to sexual triggers in this world of today?
because Yogani says any troubling behavior should be dealt with by action. What is the action here?
According to some, the main idea of man and woman here on earth is to be able to join and live in truth and love together. In order to do that we must "die" for it - we must give up emotions, wantings, desires etc... And really practice to do this, we have to get our lives straight etc. To be true to Love, the self, the presence, is to not tolerate false or corrupt substitutes for love, such as "loveless, raw sexuality", that is, whatever the ego/mind will try to trick us to believe is important. Actually it is dragging us further away from presence.
quote:
The universe is showing you an area in your life where you hurt yourself, are you going to run away from this incredible opportunity and gift to end your suffering in this regard? You can, there is no judgement in this, but will you have to face it at some point in the future?
I am aware of this. I am facing it. I am working on my negative emotions. I know in depth why I have them. It is not only my egos personal pain. (And it is also the collective female in me that is crying for all betrayals and abuses ever.)
I wonder how Yogani, from his position, reacts upon or thinks about all beautiful, sexy women. Does he even associate to "sex" when he sees them?
The "self-realized" persons I have heard on this topic says: "Form is not relevant. WOMAN is shown in any female body, young, old, fat, whatever, and it is WOMAN that hits men to their knees, makes MAN woo."
Isn't the illusion strengthened when we continue to serve the ego? The true inner female and male wants to rejoin in our physical, manifested bodies... The ranking we put on our bodies is illusion. The beauty we think we add to our bodies by manipulating them is illusiory. We think we GET something if we look good, but we don't.
What would be the reason for a realized or enlightened person to look good? Can anyone come up with a single reason?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 2:07:58 PM
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Hi meg!
Thanks for your reply! I appreciate all your comments on this issue! Yes, it is a lot on feminity, sexuality and ego right now. I think I am in a phase where "ego-detection" is very important. The ego is a devil that really does its best to withdraw us from spiritual practices and truths. It messes things up.
quote:
If I have to perform and look stunning and transform myself into a caricature of womanhood just to keep someone interested in me, then it's time to look inward and find the source of this self-imposed suffering.
That is true. So why should it matter if I let my hair grow? It shouldn't matter the least. It is my creative potential that is really attracting man, not my looks at all!
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Edited by - emc on Aug 22 2006 2:19:38 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 2:18:46 PM
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The "self-realized" persons I have heard on this topic says: "Form is not relevant. WOMAN is shown in any female body, young, old, fat, whatever, and it is WOMAN that hits men to their knees, makes MAN woo."
Unfortunately EMC, the fact is that form and appearance are very relevant to sexual attraction for the vast majority of people, both male and female. And that doesn't necessarily change for people as people become more realized. I hope people haven't been confusing you into believing that it does.
That is true. So why should it matter if I let my hair grow? It shouldn't matter the least. It is my creative potential that is really attracting man, not my looks at all!
You seem to have ideals that physical appearance is not involved in sexual attraction. Well, is that realistic? Have you even gotten beyond it yourself, with respect to men? Do you not care at all what a man looks like/ sounds like?
Any likes or dislikes I have is only expressions from the ego. The spirit enjoys a pimple or a scar as much as a flower.
I don't know about this. A 'spirit' like that, if it actually existed, probably would 'enjoy' being rejected as much as being loved. Is it practical to pursue such a 'spirit'?
What would be the reason for a realized or enlightened person to look good? Can anyone come up with a single reason?
Same reasons that anyone would want to.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 22 2006 2:25:02 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 2:21:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
What would be the reason for a realized or enlightened person to look good? Can anyone come up with a single reason?
I've asked myself this question many times. I've spent a considerable amount of time in my life on my physical appearance, and have gotten pretty good response. Less so now, and yet I continue to care how I look - make-up, hair, fitness, the whole bit. Why do we do it? As far as I can tell, 2 reasons:
1) To attract a partner. It's animal; it's in our wiring to want to attract a desirable man who will provide and protect. We don't necessarily think of it in this way, but there it is. And after we've attracted that partner, we need to keep her or him, so we continue to perform our rituals of attraction.
2) To feel good. I don't have a lover - heck, these days I barely leave the house. But I shave, I pluck, I blow-dry, I have facials, and so on. I feel good when I do. It would feel wrong to work on myself spiritually as much as we do with AYP, and then neglect my physical appearance.
I've been questioning the whole beauty/attraction thing a lot lately. When a woman (or man) comes to the point in her/his life when they don't want or need a partner, why continue with the tedious upkeep? Why not let it go? I simply don't want to. I like feeling good. AYpractices are another aspect of that - I don't see them as separate. As I work on myself internally, I want to continue to look as good as possible externally. It's no longer about attracting a worthy provider - I've got that. It's more about how I perceive myself.
Thanks for bringing this subject up - I'd love to hear how other women weigh in on this. (umm, no pun intended). Men too. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 2:36:15 PM
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quote:
My inner does not contain any beauty or sexiness. It is pure love. What is there to be beautiful or sexy? Who is there to be beautiful or sexy?
To me when pure love looks out at itself it recognizes itself and that connection is beautiful, it is an expression of love like gratitude. Like looking at a sunset and recognizing the beauty of it. If the sunset is not there does love lament its loss or does it simply love the next thing set before it? All we do is resist ourselves if we feel this awe and then try to deny it why? Because we aren't suppose to? If you feel it you feel it, I prefer to be true to who I am rather than what I think I should be which will only take me away from me.
quote:
Any likes or dislikes I have is only expressions from the ego. The spirit enjoys a pimple or a scar as much as a flower.
First, we are not only spirit at this point we are also human being that is part of being alive. I don't like being burned so I won't stick my hand in the fire even though I still love fire. quote:
I thought the spiritual journey was about understanding and living this truth. Isn't indulging in the likes and dislikes of the ego, feeding it and making it believe it is "right"? Isn't it to "be throwing dirt on the window faster than yoga can clean it off"?
I don't pretend to have all the answers, all I know is that when we start living in a way we think we are "supposed to" instead of being true to ourselves we suffer. I know that if we say we prefer that over this then we suffer, if we enjoy it all then we are at peace and can know joy.
quote:
What action is reasonable here? To what degree can a man detach himself from non-loving sexual responses to sexual triggers in this world of today?
Great philosophical question, who knows? Who says sexual triggers aren't an expression of love, isn't it all love?
quote:
because Yogani says any troubling behavior should be dealt with by action. What is the action here?
I don't know exactly what Yogani meant here, the action I would take with troubling thoughts would be to investigate them and to learn my truth of this moment in time.
quote:
According to some, the main idea of man and woman here on earth is to be able to join and live in truth and love together. In order to do that we must "die" for it - we must give up emotions, wantings, desires etc... And really practice to do this, we have to get our lives straight etc. To be true to Love, the self, the presence, is to not tolerate false or corrupt substitutes for love, such as "loveless, raw sexuality", that is, whatever the ego/mind will try to trick us to believe is important. Actually it is dragging us further away from presence.
"To be true to love, the self, the presence is to not tolerate false or corrupt substitutes...". This doesn't sound very loving to me, love is acceptance of these "corrupt" things, with acceptance they fall away. You can not force them away.
quote:
What would be the reason for a realized or enlightened person to look good? Can anyone come up with a single reason?
One can only guess that they do it because they enjoy it for no one else but themselves.
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Edited by - Anthem on Aug 22 2006 2:43:13 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 3:46:43 PM
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Great to hear your thoughts. I continue to write my associations they bring to me... I think just writing about it helps me. Thanks a lot!
David,
Form and appearance are relevant for the ego's of most people. Not for their inner selves. When I think back of moments where I have been most truly attracted to someone it has been in situations where looks have not mattered at all. On camps where no mirrors exist, in situations where I have gotten really close to someone due to an accident, after sweatty days in the cottage. I am not attracted to any particular look. I have been in love with extremely big/fat men, men with psoriasis all over their body, disabled men etc as well as very beautiful men. The thing they have had in common is honesty. They have been honest in their way of being, with themselves and with me. That is attractive.
I do not have ideals that physical appearance SHOULD not matter for the vast majority of people following their ego. It does. To the extreme. I know that it becomes more and more irrelevant with sexual excitement the more you are in your heart and inner stillness. It is exchanged with the passion of love. Having sex and making love are two distinct different things to me. When I feel true love from my partner my heart opens and I cry of joy. When he kisses me from an ego-state I may at the most get a little horny, or if I am connected to the spirit I can even feel a sort of sticky, uncomfortable energy. When he kisses me when he is connected to the spirit he touches my heart and he can kiss my sorrow away. I melt, I cry, I become love. And in those moments the tantra just flows, with or without actual sexual coitus. The combination is sometimes overwhelming. In that moment, I assure you, looks are totally irrelevant.
And yes, the spirit does not mind at all about being rejected as much as being loved. It loves uglyness, evil and failures just as much as beauty, good and success. The spirit is timeless and has been rejected over and over again. It is still there, it is love, waiting. Always ready.
Meg,
I also believe people tries to attract a partner by keeping the looks up. But if we ask our selves deeper... Is that the way we want it to be? Really? Wouldn't we all like to be loved for who we ARE, not what we look like? Wouldn't we like to find a partner that would stay with us even if our face was burned in a fire? Wouldn't it be more relaxing? Isn't that the deepest truth and inner truth? That is at least my inner truth.
To feel good. I understand that. I just don't feel good any longer when men look at me with sexual desire. I feel a sticky, uncomfortable energy. I feel I am the mirror reflecting their sexual wounds, frustrations and sometimes violence. Getting the attention makes me feel restless and empty, not better. This comes a lot from understanding why my partner gazes at women. There are so many sexual wounds beneith it all...
Anthem,
I agree, we are not only spirit. We are manifested here as physical bodies. And we try to learn how to combine the living as both.
I agree as well that one can not force things away. I do not think that was the point of what I wrote. Sorry if I expressed it unclearly. Not to 'tolerate' the moves from the ego simply means just "accepting" it exactly for what it is... illusion, trick, a hindrance to stay in connection with spirit. Accepting it as the temporary, the wanting, the excitement, whatever... But before you accept you must acknowledge. I have just acknowledged that my own sexuality have been untrue to my inner feelings of what is "right", to my inner love. I have thought sex was necessary. It is not. Right now I can truly say I don't need another orgasm more in my life. And say it with joy, and without a sense of loss. A clitorial orgasm is nada in comparison with the experience of love, the merging of the male and female energies or whatever it is. A clitorial orgasm has never made me cry. Making love does.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 4:29:56 PM
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I have a dear female friend who is very voluptuous and beautiful and who dresses to emphasize her assets to their utmost. She does it to attract attention to herself, period. And she does - lots of it. She loves getting the attention of men who she considers attractive, but resents getting the attention of the 'undesirables". It really pisses me off when women do this. It's like going to a singles' bar and getting upset when someone hits on you.
The energy that we put out there is the energy we get back. OR - what you look for is what you get. I hear some women say that All Men Are Creeps. What that tells me is that this particular woman is looking for (and finding) creepy men. If you want a partner who is interested in you for your internal beauty, then develop that within yourself, and look for that in a man. If the whole beauty issue seems unfair and unsavory to you, take a stand, let yourself go, and see what you reel in. :) I'll be interested to hear if he's any further along the road to enlightenment than other men.
Hey - I'm not going anywhere today - not even leaving the house - and I just put on liptick. Go figger. :) |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 5:05:35 PM
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Hi EMC and All,
This issue of love and sexuality is a big issue in our lives. When we are in a physical body we are automatically subject to the laws of our physical bodies and the physical world. One of our main purposes of being here is to procreate and give new life to others, as it is for almost all other beings. To motivate us to do this, nature has programmed into us attraction to the opposite sex. To ensure optimum and healthy continuation of the species, with "good genes" in our offspring, we are programmed to be physically attracted to features of the opposite sex that indicate strength, beauty, good health and vitality, and ability to procreate. Any person who has not mastered complete detachment from the processes of his/her body is subject to this, and we can not blame them for it. However, it doesn't work in a man/woman relationship of course, if they openly show attraction to others.
Love is an entirely different quality. In its pure form it's of a spiritual nature, and one of our main purposes as spiritual beings, even in a body, is to exchange love with others. EMC, you have described beautifully above how you experience love in many situations. The more love one has realized in oneself, the less important physical attraction will be. This follows the mastery of everything on the spiritual path. Spirit over matter. For a relationship to work well I believe that both partners should have a similar balance of love vs. attachment to attraction.
EMC, I believe that you have to accept this interplay of love and attachment to attraction in your world for a while until you find that the latter, by yoga practices, will fade out and lose its edge. If you find your relationship meaningful it makes sense to stay with it. But one can of course also have a completely fulfilling life being single.
Are we going to ignore our physical appearance even when we get to the point where we can love unconditionally regardless of anything? I don't believe so. It will be in our interest, for the sake of others mainly, to keep ourselves looking decent, in order to maintain meaningful and loving relationships with them.
Wishing you the best in your life and spiritual path! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 5:21:31 PM
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I do not have ideals that physical appearance SHOULD not matter for the vast majority of people following their ego. It does. To the extreme. I know that it becomes more and more irrelevant with sexual excitement the more you are in your heart and inner stillness.
EMC,
and yet you do seem to contrast "ego" with "spirit", and "spirit" seems to be the ideal, while "ego" seems to be a non-ideal. You are saying that being more in your heart and inner stillness makes physicality less important for sexual attraction.
Well, it hasn't been my experience. Over the years, I've definitely experienced a lot of 'purification' and 'inner silence' and the development of a loving heart, and yet I found that it did not make physicality a less important element for sexual attraction in my case.
When I discovered this, it was something of a surprise for me too, because I too was under cultural and personal presumptions that it would. You know, I was somehow thinking that if I have spiritual development that I would make me care only about 'Inner beauty'. But no, it didn't, and that's the way it is.
But from here, those presumptions doesn't make sense any more anyway.
Here's the way I see it now. 'Inner Silence' produces loving tendencies that are universal. We shouldn't confuse these with universal sexual attraction. If you think about it, there is no reason that sexual attraction should become universal. It follows its own laws, just as your appetite for food does.
If some people no longer find any need for physical form and are still sexually stimulated, fair enough. I recognize that that happens at times, but I don't make it an ideal.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 22 2006 5:57:23 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2006 : 6:09:50 PM
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| Andrew, David, and Weaver - Thank you for your responses on the issue of sexuality. It's interesting to hear how you spiritually-minded men feel about women in this area. Once we (the whole lot of us) start down a spiritual path, the old and murky paradigms of sexuality get older and murkier. I'm thankful for your participation in this discussion, which emc and I have discussed elsewhere at length, but without the male perspective to balance it out. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 01:48:55 AM
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Meg,
this is really interesting. Good that you mentioned that you and I have discussed this elsewhere.
"What you look for is what you get". Yes! Definitely! That's why I found a man who would trigger my deepest wounds, and I his! We both have been able to go to the root of this. It triggers both memories of the past and "weltschmertz". I can feel the collective female victimhood, and he can feel the collective male perpetrator hood - and vice versa. A long time ago the order of the sexes was the opposite. Women have tortured men, and some still do, by suffocating them, binding them too close, not letting them free. We have both been in both positions during all our lives, therefore there is no blame in this. I do not blame things for being as they are.
After all, isn't it so that this world was created to give us a ride? We have all been a part of creating EVERYTHING on earth in order to be able to EXPERIENCE something else than a constant loving. Getting a feeling of being separated from God is the prerequisit to be able to feel the enormous kick when merged again. In order to be able to feel LOVE and TRUTH "for the first time" (which is actually a RE-cognition, since that was our natural state before) we invented a physical game on earth where we could experience the exact opposite. Non-love. Therefore all miserys on earth are a blessing! And I have given that gift to myself.
I have started to get touches of that great love. I start to see the games we play here on earth for what they are. The ego was invented to give us a struggle only for the kick of getting rid of its influence.
Weaver, I do believe also that for a relationship to function is to have a similar balance of both ego and spirit (love vs. attachment as you put it). I also think you are right when you say I should accept it a bit longer. I KNOW I can have a wonderful life as single. I don't need him. Whatever happens with our relationship will be fine. A am ready to let him go. Love wants to be free, everybody must walk their path. I can not ask anything from him. The latest days this has become so true to me.
And David, have you ever thought of the possibility that it is in the area of sexuality you might have some emotional job to be done before you can detach from the addiction to attraction? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 07:46:53 AM
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"The task of life on earth is to return to the undivided divine consciousness behind the brain, behind the male and female forms. That is called God realisation, the conscious re-entry or reunion with pure formless life within. - - - Only through the love of each other can they ever be united here. And that means giving up their selfishness and negativity."
That's how Barry Long puts it. No talk about ideals. No talk about blame. Just how things are. We have a "brain"/mind/ego and a "form"/body/physical manifestation that we have to come around somehow, come "behind", "kill the ego" etc etc... Whatever. I have heard so many expressions of the same idea now. Is that my ideal? No. It is just how things are. Or am I missing something important here on the basic idea? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 10:51:09 AM
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And David, have you ever thought of the possibility that it is in the area of sexuality you might have some emotional job to be done before you can detach from the addiction to attraction?
Thanks, Emc, but actually I've never been addicted to attraction at all. Some people are like that -- they don't really have problems in this area. Was there a reason you thought I might be addicted to attraction?
Barry Long seems betimes to present myth as given fact, ( a tendency he seems to have passed on to Eckhart Tolle, along with the same myths), while identifying our 'purity' with our love of truth. If these teachers developed a little more in certain dimensions, would they stop doing this?
I can feel the collective female victimhood, and he can feel the collective male perpetrator hood - and vice versa. A long time ago the order of the sexes was the opposite.
Well, this is my opinion, but you seem to be putting a heavy weight on the kinds of ideas that come from the Long/Tolle camp that I consider most dubious. Long has very specific (and I would say over-simplified, and primitive, and "magical") explanations of the causes of human unhappiness. It's not just that I believe they are inaccurate, I am not sure how healthy they all are. You can be a judge of that for yourself. But I would say be cautious.
That's how Barry Long puts it. No talk about ideals. <SNIP> Is that my ideal? No. It is just how things are.
No direct talk about ideals, but enormous presumptions about the nature of existence and spiritual development, and the ideals follow from that. One of them is an ideal of a spiritually-developed person not having looks as a factor in their sexual attractions.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 23 2006 2:53:57 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 2:38:30 PM
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quote:
After all, isn't it so that this world was created to give us a ride? We have all been a part of creating EVERYTHING on earth in order to be able to EXPERIENCE something else than a constant loving. Getting a feeling of being separated from God is the prerequisit to be able to feel the enormous kick when merged again. In order to be able to feel LOVE and TRUTH "for the first time" (which is actually a RE-cognition, since that was our natural state before) we invented a physical game on earth where we could experience the exact opposite. Non-love. Therefore all miserys on earth are a blessing! And I have given that gift to myself.
Hi EMC,
I think this is a great insight that you have described above and I have always felt the same way. Is this something you read somewhere that elaborates on this idea or is it something that you have come to know intuitively?
thanks,
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Aug 23 2006 3:49:02 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 4:23:25 PM
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Thank you for your concern, David. What if I use Yoganis words instead?
"A deep desire we all have is to merge permanently with
the ecstasy contained in this thing called "sex.
Tantra means "woven together," or "two fullnesses as one." It means
the same as yoga really, with some intimacy added. Tantra recognizes
from the start that there are two poles to be ecstatically merged for
enlightenment to occur – father heaven and mother earth, masculine
and feminine energies, shiva and shakti, yin and yang – and that
these two poles are contained in us, in our nervous system.
For
if we do not get a handle on the huge flows of prana involved in the
sex act, we may find that we are limited in what we can accomplish
spiritually in our nervous system. This does not mean we have to
entertain the dreaded "C" word (celibacy). It does mean we will
consider some intelligent methods to bring our sexual activities more
in line with our spiritual aspirations. In fact, you may be surprised
to find that intelligent spiritual sex can be far more enjoyable than
the run-of-the-mill kind of sex which is sometimes characterized by the
words, "Wham, bam, thank you Ma'am."
We have obsessions, strong emotional attachments relating to sex.
Let's remind ourselves that we are coming to the bed for a higher
purpose in lovemaking, and let's use bhakti to direct our sexual
obsessions to that.
etc etc... It was Yoganis words that gave me thoughts about this topic. To me it doesn't matter from where I get pushes to greater inward attention. I get immediate response in my deepest knowing when I read something that is right for me to hear in the moment. I do not go into any mind-judgement of different persons trying to communicate Truth. I have gotten important insights from Long, Osho, The Toltecs, Tarot cards, the pop groups System of a Down and Lucky People Center International, Yogani, people at this forum, friends, whatever. I feel that most of what I hear is the same thing basically. And I respond with deep breathing, tears or just strong "knowing" that what I hear or read is true. As long as I listen inwards I am safe, always! =)
My thoughts about your sexual situation was this sentence: "I was somehow thinking that if I have spiritual development that I would make me care only about 'Inner beauty'. But no, it didn't, and that's the way it is."
I do not know if you call yourself realized or enlightened yet. If you do it is interesting. If you don't I get a feeling of something behind this sentence. Your next reply contained the sentence: "Thanks, Emc, but actually I've never been addicted to attraction at all.", which gave me another hint that either we totally miss each others message, or you have something within you that you do not want to recognize. But I do not know. I only know I do not react with my ordinary "truth"-reactions when I read your replies. I react with emotionality which usually is triggered by emotionality... And emotionality covers deep truths about our selves.
This sensitivity has chocked my partner several times. He can come home and be happy and loving. But if I respond to that with coldness, distress, restlessness, anxiety or anger it usually takes a minor quarrel before it turns out he has not been honest or true to me during the day, carrying a small fear that "if he told me I would dislike what I heard". So he keeps silent. Once it took very long to find out what it was. It went so far that we went to bed and I just couldn't fall asleep. I started to get scared of the darkness. And it was extremely odd, so I said "What on earth? Am I scared of the darkness suddenly? Is this really my fear?" He then finally said "Ooops, you must be feeling my fear... something happened today that I haven't told you". I have noticed it is very difficult to lie to me nowadays. I will immediately feel that something is wrong. But this mostly goes for those close to me.
Anthem, I have both read it and experienced it. The site I saw it on was a dutch site, someone channeling things from Jeshua.
http://www.jeshua.net/
"From ego to heart". I recognize my own spiritual journey very much in those descriptions.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 5:38:06 PM
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I do not know if you call yourself realized or enlightened yet. If you do it is interesting. If you don't I get a feeling of something behind this sentence.
I would never call myself those things, and it isn't false modesty. To call oneself those things is to open oneself up to all sorts of things which are nasty for both oneself and others, such as being mythologized/put up on a pedestal and being believed to be always making sense.
This thread started with your looking for help. I've given you my honest best, which includes some opinions that some of your ideas might be a bit 'off' and leading you a bit astray, and coming from a source whom you highly regard, whose ideas are a bit 'off' betimes too. Perhaps that is enough for you to drive you out of your 'truth reactions'?
There are different ways to help people. Meg, Weaver, Andrew and I worked from different angles according to our dispositions. Maybe you can't find what I said helpful, but I hope you got enough out of the others that you are still 'ahead' from coming here today.
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 11:32:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
This thread started with your looking for help.
Butting in on this thread... But David, each thread begins with someone apparently seeking help... each person participating may not necessarily be only in an 'advisory' position, or even claim capacity for that. Doesn't each person participating in each thread get as much 'helped' as 'help'... and when insights of different kinds hit a person, the roles get reversed quite often, quite easily. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2006 : 11:48:23 PM
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Sadhak, yes, of course. Who says otherwise?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2006 : 07:27:55 AM
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quote:
I've given you my honest best, which includes some opinions that some of your ideas might be a bit 'off' and leading you a bit astray, and coming from a source whom you highly regard, whose ideas are a bit 'off' betimes too.
Are you referring to Yogani here?   |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2006 : 11:36:59 AM
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I thought it was obvious that I was referring to Barry Long.
I don't have any issues with the stuff you quote from Yogani. The following kind of stuff is a little different from what Yogani said and doesn't follow from it.
http://www.barrylong.org/statements...nglove.shtml
Woman's basic unhappiness, her perennial discontent, is because man
can no longer reach her physically. Her emotional excess, depressions, tearful frustrations, even premenstrual tension and the conditions leading to hysterectomy and other uterine problems, are due to man's sexual failure to gather or release in lovemaking her finest, fundamental, female energies.
...
All men, without exception, are sex obsessed.
...
Man has failed to serve love and failed physically to serve woman, who
is the personification of love.
...
The penalty for man is woman's tyrannous emotionality.
...
Man in his selfishness taught woman to be selfish.
...
A woman who has not yet seen herself being the fiendess has not yet
connected with her love.
I was saying I have significant reservations about this kind of stuff, including on the bits that seem to have rubbed off on Eckhart Tolle. Maybe it's harmless, but I'm not so sure. But I feel very certain it's inaccurate.
Barry Long is full of ideas. I'm not so sure about the quality-control, that's all. Did he, maybe like Krishnamurti and others, confuse the business of having some position beyond the mind, with the accuracy of his mind?
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2006 : 12:18:44 PM
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| Yes, I have to say that this woman's basic unhappiness, when it appears, has nothing to do with the failures of any man. And my unfortunate selfishness is likewise my own doing, not a byproduct of some man's failure to serve me. The arrogance! I disagree, David - this stuff is not harmless. Barry Long seems to create the very rift that he then offers to heal. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2006 : 3:01:22 PM
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Hm. Are you two judgemental and emotional now? One might interpret it as if you had an "ideal" guru and knows exactly how a such talks and behaves. Haha, Things like this may go on for ever.
In my humble opinion, all "wise men and women" I have so far read or heard speak have captured a bit of the whole stuff, interpreted it through their own minds when they write and ooops, there comes the readers minds misunderstandings into it all, depending on which terms and words are used. Terms and words contain different associations for all persons. That is why communication is among the most difficult things.
I try to look at the general pattern of information I get and combine it with my own experiences. In the end nothing is logic, everything is paradox and I realize that there is actually nothing to understand, really. When Being, every one is smoked salmon anyway. =)
I have decided to... WAIT! And let my inner voice tell my body what is right when I meat my partner on Saturday. If my legs starts walking the other direction I won't argue. Lately I have found out that that is the easiest way to find my way around unknown areas in town. I just let my legs walk and they always lead me right to the spot I had in mind! =)
Trust. That everything will be okey. That life will take care of me. That whatever happens I will just continue to float...
LOVE to you all! |
Edited by - emc on Aug 24 2006 3:17:48 PM |
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Addiction to raw sexuality, sex appeal and looks
