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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 13 2014 : 09:54:16 AM
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Some people start pulling at the knot in different ways in order to unravel the rope. That there will seem to failed experimental tugging is totally natural, yet each inevitably leads to a better method or new discovery. Any effort should never be discouraged and failure seen to be part of a natural process of learning and building.
If standing on ones head in a bath of baked beans seems to offer a way forward then it should be tried  hypnotism, regression, time line therapy, crystal healing, angels, water spirits, living in a cave are all of value to discovery.
Ultimately man is a lazy creature but a most practical one. False progression can be quickly analysed in the same way drinking 'dream' or the 'mirage' of water will not quench thirst. The method with the greatest progression for the least effort is the preferred option. This is economic spiritual effort and no less practical and enduring than the physical kind. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2014 : 2:36:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
If standing on ones head in a bath of baked beans seems to offer a way forward then it should be tried
LOL. Now that's radical. 
Sveta, I think there's real merit in karma yoga. I've had plenty of results in the negative when I acted in ways that weren't so congruent with the divine flow, so I find it best to keep checking myself in terms of behavior, or else the universe will certainly keep me in check, which I am still learning, sometimes the hard way. Might as well try to capitalize and maximize on the dividends of "As you sow, so shall you reap."
Unity.  |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2014 : 9:46:03 PM
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I had the fortuitous opportunity, in my late teens and early 20s, 40+ years ago, to study with two "Fully Realized". "awakened", or, if you will, enlightened beings. The first was an ancient Japanese Zen master named Nippo Sayaku. Being only 18 during the year I spent with him, I had the nerve to ask him, "What is the difference between life before and after enlightenment?" He told me, "Nothing at all, everything just the same, still we chop wood, carry water... Only difference is, after, is harder to keep from laughing...", at which point he began to giggle, then chuckle, then guffaw, and then roar hilariously until tears rolled down his cheeks. I must say, it took me over 30 years to get the joke. I also studied with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi for 2 years. They didn't call him the "Giggling Guru" for nothing, and that tended to confirm what master Nippo had told me. However, I also got to work with Maharishi (I was a TM video cameraman for over a year), and that was a real eye-opening experience, because I'd always assumed that an enlightened guru (which Maharishi most certainly was) would be without faults, perfect in every way. That's just not correct--Maharishi had a real, emotional, intellectual personality--he had odd behaviors, he made errors, he inconvenienced others, he sometimes acted impulsively, and sometimes we had to tell him things he didn't wish to hear, and he'd get annoyed with us. But he also cut thru all bullsh*t, was kind, caring and he tried always to give us as honest and complete an answer to our questions as he could. He was NOT perfect--that's not what enlightenment is about--but he was wonderfully perfect at being Himself. I think that's what it's about. And, having now been doing this for 45 years, I can also see that "Enlightenment" is not a place we arrive at, a door we pass thru, a goal we reach. The "Awakening" which the Buddha spoke of is a continuum, and at the end of our long path, as that one door does finally open and light pours in on us, we do not sit and stop our spiritual evolution, sitting contentedly on our enlightened duffs! Instead, what we see ahead, is a further path unfolding, and another door...
namaste,
Michael |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2014 : 03:45:11 AM
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| excllent post mikkiji |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2014 : 03:54:57 AM
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| @mikkiji |
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2014 : 09:04:55 AM
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Very nice post mikkiji
As for the original question, it's phrased in such a way that you're not going to get an answer, because there probably is none. I can ask senior practitioners however, what is your daily experience like. Do you experience the bliss and ecstasy described in the lessons 24/7? In general how do you view people around you, rising emotions etc. Perhaps this will yield a more fruitful answer. I have to add that I have no idea why you're asking this question or what you mean to achieve with the answer. |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2014 : 12:13:48 PM
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thanks for sharing mikkiji!
quote:
Originally posted by ak33
Very nice post mikkiji
As for the original question, it's phrased in such a way that you're not going to get an answer, because there probably is none..... ...I have to add that I have no idea why you're asking this question or what you mean to achieve with the answer.
i see no reason for an answer not to exist? maybe somebody else also thought about it and does have some sort of a guess. as i clarified already, i am not looking for an accurate number, i though that would be self evident so that is why i did not include this clarification in the very first message of this thread, but somewhat later.
It is absolutely normal to ask few things and sensible details about the destination one has embarked upon achieving. indeed i find it more strange that such a curiosity of mine would be viewed as strange. |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2014 : 5:26:35 PM
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svetamoscow--yes, good point--if we have departed for a destination, it's only natural that we have some idea what that destination is like--maybe there should be Trip Adviser reviews of Enlightenment, people's commentary regarding their experiences! But seriously, when I first started on this spiritual path, I too asked these questions, assuming that such an intellectual inquiry should have a logical response. Not so with this particular destination, however--that's just the nature of subjective personal experience. Although this IS a universal phenomenon, we each reflect it in a unique manner. And so, instead, we tend to read those special writings by a few people who have taken this journey and had the wherewithal to write cogently about it. Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi" is a classic example of the genre, but there are many other authors--Gopi Krishna, Ram Dass, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, among others, who have given us a peek behind the curtain. As for who and how many of us here at AYP have "arrived", you'll never get an answer. A better question to ask is the one posed by ak33--"I can ask senior practitioners however, what is your daily experience like. Do you experience the bliss and ecstasy described in the lessons 24/7? In general how do you view people around you, rising emotions etc. Perhaps this will yield a more fruitful answer." And yes, it WILL yield a more fruitful answer. It's less a poll like, "Everybody who got an "A" on the test, raise your hand" and more open-ended; "What was the test like, how did taking it make you feel, what changes in your life did it bring about?" Let me consider THAT question and compose a good response when I get more time... Stay tuned. Oh, and btw--I am in no way claiming any specific state of consciousness myself, only that I have been on this path for over 40 years, have taken some very advanced training during that time, and can relate interesting (and perhaps illuminating) aspects of my personal journey. That's all.
namaste,
Michael |
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2014 : 02:28:33 AM
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Why is illumination so important? We don’t know in advance the mysterious and remote country we so much want to explore. It is the journey itself which is interesting and fascinating; the challenge is to discover the unknown. When the country is discovered, if it is, the game is over. No more fun!
Perhaps at the end of the road, the entire universe, this marvelous and extraordinary universe will disappear and what will remain, nobody can tell!
Didier
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2014 : 12:36:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Buffle37
Why is illumination so important? It is the journey itself which is interesting and fascinating; the challenge is to discover the unknown. When the country is discovered, if it is, the game is over. No more fun!
Didier
hi didier, my personal prospective is very VERY different. the liberation that I am asking about in particular, is just one of the exams on the way, the long way of self discovery to which I cannot even see if there is any end ever. it is so important to some people because of its importance in terms of the terminology of the spiritual teaching of the east. flowery language is typical for the old scriptures of the east, every single yoga posture, every spiritual path, each and every meditation technique, mudra or anything at all is the ultimate and the topmost and the best of all all. and so the liberation as well is "ultimate achievement" and there is nothing to be learn after that. in the east people use such language for everything, but western people (who are accustomed to much more precise use of language) take things literally and so get confused. for example shamans in other cultures can pass the point of liberation and continue further in their development and will not even bother to put a name for this particular milestone on the way.
Also I personally simply do not believe that once we graduate from the material form of existence the fun will be over and once we reach the point of liberation there will be nothing. Earlier in this post I refereed to some reading that will explain the source of my confidence in this matter. also, not all people find the journey such a great fun as you, i know many that find it very very difficult and fun at all. I personally enjoy the results, I did not enjoy many parts of the road to those results. If I believed that it is just traveling for the sake if travel I would personally see no point to continue and would rather spend my time gardening for example, which gives me instant peace immediately.
dear mikkiji, i answered very similar posts like yours earlier, in my previews posts. thanks for answering.
as far as this being a question for beginners only, as you imply, i personally see no reason to think so. as far as getting more meaningful answers, actually sometimes one can get meaningful info JUST from the reaction to a question...
by the way i actually closed this discussion after Yogani himself did not wish to share his guess on the subject. i thought it would be rude to continue digging into it after that, but actually you put it again in the spotlight...
[edited by moderators for formatting only] |
Edited by - svetamoscow on Jul 19 2014 2:03:28 PM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2014 : 8:34:40 PM
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If you are happy you are enlightened...learn how to be happy...everyone has a different method.
I'm happy a lot ...but not 100%...so I'm not enlightened...but I think I at least know what to strive for.
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2014 : 2:41:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Buddha then asked, "What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say 'I have entered the stream'?"
"No, Buddha", Subhuti replied. "A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream."
Buddha continued, "Does a disciple who is subject to only one more rebirth say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honors and rewards of a Once-to-be-reborn.'?"
"No, Lord. 'Once-to-be-reborn' is only a name. There is no passing away, or coming into, existence. Only one who realizes this can really be called a disciple."
"Subhuti, does a venerable One who will never more be reborn as a mortal say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honor and rewards of a Non-returner.'?"
"No, Perfectly Enlightened One. A 'Non-returner' is merely a name. There is actually no one returning and no one not-returning."
"Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"
"No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2014 : 12:25:41 PM
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This is interesting jonesboy, in other words before asking how many are enlightened, are we even sure that they are AWARE that they enlightened.
my personal opinion is that most them will be aware, in case they are familiar with the term at all, as i said i think some shamans actually pass by the milestone and do not give it name even. others could not be aware simply because they had no specific reason to sit and ponder one day if they have reached the stage or not. but i think that people who reach it by following a clearly charted path of yoga like in the case of ayp, then they will very well know where they have reached. the passage above is just too poetic, i would not take it literally. if one starts taking all yoga and Buddhist scriptures literally one will be greatly confused because they contradict each other and themselves at every step. this opinion is based on logic and literature sources (mentioned earlier in the post), not on my experience because i have not passed the graduation point (really that is so, i am not just bewildered about it because i am enlightened...). IF SOMEBODY HAS A MORE RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFO ON THIS SUBJECT PLEASE SHARE, I am very opened to changing my opinions, indeed that is why visit this forum to do change some of them. i just wish i knew which ones need to go...
[edited by moderators for formatting only] |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2014 : 5:20:23 PM
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Does the ocean know it's called the ocean? Does a mountain know it's called a mountain? Would you know your own name unless it had been told to you? Discern and discriminate between the label and the object. "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
Try to hold silence in your hand. Try to grasp infinity with your intellectual mind. Can't be done.
Here's a great lesson on enlightenment milestones:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
Another stellar Yogani quote (one to get tattooed on the chest):
"I never met an end state that was not a plateau."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=10611#90958
So just relax, and stop trying to put a ceiling on it. That's all that's required. Just give up trying to cap it, or put a stamp on it, or proclaim that someone has attained it.
I've had the privilege to encounter some higher beings that were not of human body-form (though they resembled humans), and they were beaming bliss, purity, love, inner silence, etc. "In my Father's house, there are many mansions." (John 14:2) So don't think humanity is at the peak of existence, or enlightenment. It keeps going...ad infinitum. ¿Comprende? |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2014 : 10:05:27 AM
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Great post Bodhi  |
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sprechnd
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2015 : 8:36:21 PM
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| So the general consensus is there no ultimate enlightenment because it keeps increasing forever? |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2015 : 10:02:42 PM
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Hi Sprechnd, welcome to the forum and this House of Mirrors!  |
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sprechnd
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2015 : 11:01:01 PM
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Yogani and all, what are your thoughts on Paramahansa Yogananda's teacher Sri Yukteswar's explanation of enlightenment in Autobiography of a Yogi?
Here is the link to the whole thing: http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php
I find it very interesting and logical and am super curious of your opinions. What I get from it is there is different levels if liberation. Liberation from the material realm/physical body is only one level. Then we have to liberate ourselves from the astral and causal bodies. He does seem to indicate there is an Absolute Freedom, or ultimate enlightenment. Thoughts?
Here's some excerpts related to enlightenment:
"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos. By deeper ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little causal body and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition, calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the ever-joyous Sea of Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged in the One Cosmic Ocean, with all its waves-eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.
"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever from the law of relativity and becomes the ineffable Ever-Existent.10 Behold the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region of lightless light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with its ecstasy of joy in God's dream of cosmic creation."
"A free soul!" I ejaculated in awe.
"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions," Master continued, "it becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality. Christ had won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus. In three stages of his past, symbolized in his earth-life as the three days of his experience of death and resurrection, he had attained the power to fully arise in Spirit.
"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master who achieves this final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring other human beings back to God, or like myself he may choose to reside in the astral cosmos. There a savior assumes some of the burden of the inhabitants' karma11 and thus helps them to terminate their cycle of reincarnation in the astral cosmos and go on permanently to the causal spheres. Or a freed soul may enter the causal world to aid its beings to shorten their span in the causal body and thus attain the Absolute Freedom."
"So long as the soul of man is encased in one, two, or three body-containers, sealed tightly with the corks of ignorance and desires, he cannot merge with the sea of Spirit. When the gross physical receptacle is destroyed by the hammer of death, the other two coverings-astral and causal-still remain to prevent the soul from consciously joining the Omnipresent Life. When desirelessness is attained through wisdom, its power disintegrates the two remaining vessels. The tiny human soul emerges, free at last; it is one with the Measureless Amplitude."
"In thirty-five thought categories of the causal body, God elaborated all the complexities of man's nineteen astral and sixteen physical counterparts. By condensation of vibratory forces, first subtle, then gross, He produced man's astral body and finally his physical form. According to the law of relativity, by which the Prime Simplicity has become the bewildering manifold, the causal cosmos and causal body are different from the astral cosmos and astral body; the physical cosmos and physical body are likewise characteristically at variance with the other forms of creation.
The fleshly body is made of the fixed, objectified dreams of the Creator. The dualities are ever-present on earth: disease and health, pain and pleasure, loss and gain. Human beings find limitation and resistance in three-dimensional matter. When man's desire to live is severely shaken by disease or other causes, death arrives; the heavy overcoat of the flesh is temporarily shed. The soul, however, remains encased in the astral and causal bodies.7 The adhesive force by which all three bodies are held together is desire. The power of unfulfilled desires is the root of all man's slavery."
"Physical death is attended by the disappearance of breath and the disintegration of fleshly cells. Astral death consists of the dispersement of lifetrons, those manifest units of energy which constitute the life of astral beings. At physical death a being loses his consciousness of flesh and becomes aware of his subtle body in the astral world. Experiencing astral death in due time, a being thus passes from the consciousness of astral birth and death to that of physical birth and death. These recurrent cycles of astral and physical encasement are the ineluctable destiny of all unenlightened beings. Scriptural definitions of heaven and hell sometimes stir man's deeper-than-subconscious memories of his long series of experiences in the blithesome astral and disappointing terrestrial worlds."
"Physical desires are rooted in egotism and sense pleasures. The compulsion or temptation of sensory experience is more powerful than the desire-force connected with astral attachments or causal perceptions.
"Astral desires center around enjoyment in terms of vibration. Astral beings enjoy the ethereal music of the spheres and are entranced by the sight of all creation as exhaustless expressions of changing light. The astral beings also smell, taste, and touch light. Astral desires are thus connected with an astral being's power to precipitate all objects and experiences as forms of light or as condensed thoughts or dreams.
"Causal desires are fulfilled by perception only. The nearly-free beings who are encased only in the causal body see the whole universe as realizations of the dream-ideas of God; they can materialize anything and everything in sheer thought. Causal beings therefore consider the enjoyment of physical sensations or astral delights as gross and suffocating to the soul's fine sensibilities. Causal beings work out their desires by materializing them instantly.8 Those who find themselves covered only by the delicate veil of the causal body can bring universes into manifestation even as the Creator. Because all creation is made of the cosmic dream-texture, the soul thinly clothed in the causal has vast realizations of power.
"A soul, being invisible by nature, can be distinguished only by the presence of its body or bodies. The mere presence of a body signifies that its existence is made possible by unfulfilled desires.9 |
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sprechnd
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2015 : 11:05:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy
Hi Sprechnd, welcome to the forum and this House of Mirrors!
Haha, a house of mirrors indeed brother! Thanks and it's great to be here. I can already tell just reading through a few threads this place is awesome. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2015 : 01:47:56 AM
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I have found the 3-layered template of causal, astral, and physical to be helpful. In some sense, Deep Meditation is going beyond all three to the omnipresent stillness which will always be. Spinal Breathing Pranayama is dealing with both physical and energetic bodies, because breath and life force are intimately intertwined. Samyama is drawing from causality because the release of sutras (seed ideas) has the co-creative power of manifesting desires.
So, all the bases are covered in AYP!
Thanks for posting that passage. I love that chapter. 
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2015 : 10:26:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sprechnd
there no ultimate enlightenment because it keeps increasing forever?
I think that is a really good way of putting it. |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2015 : 1:05:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sprechend
So the general consensus is there no ultimate enlightenment because it keeps increasing forever?
Eh. Could be!
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sprechnd
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2015 : 1:37:28 PM
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| Maybe it's like how there is also no highest musical note or highest frequency color or light because there can be an infinitely high frequency or waves per second. Just a thought, might not be relevant to enlightenment though. |
Edited by - sprechnd on Jan 07 2015 2:20:27 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2015 : 02:13:45 AM
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An enlightened person is somebody who can make their brainwaves halt and resemble the heart beat. This is very clearly shown by an electroencephalograph.
More advanced practitioners who are not yet enlightened would display a high frequency of delta, theta and alpha brain wave patterns.
These studies have not yet been completed with AYP practitioners :) |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2015 : 04:12:32 AM
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quote:
An enlightened person
In my opinion a person can not be enlightened. Enlightenment can be there ( but never comes to an end) but is not for the person and as soon as it is put in words it is not the freedom of enlightenment anymore, but it is a challenge to talk about it here.....  
@ Sprechnd, I read an interesting book from A.E. Powell "The Causal Body", I found it on the internet, I read it in Dutch but if you are interested you can probably find it in English as well. Very clear written!
I love the passage from The Autobiography of Yogananda too!
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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
