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EternalLearner
India
5 Posts |
 Posted - May 01 2014 : 2:59:21 PM
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Hello Everyone,
I have been practicing Meditation and Yoga for quite some time now, because as I child I was taught it is good thing. I know it is good for overall health and connects you with God. But as I grew up I slowly stopped believing in God, and I still don't believe much in God. But there is still something that keeps me on this path of Yoga and Meditation. I am not being able to understand what is it actually, but I am continuing my practice because of this little hope in something unknown.
But sometimes my faith wavers a lot and I kind of feel like giving all these things up and enjoy the visible material life only, forgetting all about the spiritual teachings of the ancient times, because I just don't believe much in the God, neither have I seen any proof yet that anything superior exists and nor do I know exactly what is the goal of my practices. I just don't know what am I working so hard for.
So, I just want to know and understand what exactly is enlightenment? What is this journey all about?
Is it just about having more pleasure by hacking and altering our Nervous System, or the powers that many people claim to have obtained by these practices, or is it just about our salvation and freedom from this cycle of birth and death, or is it completely about something else(if yes, then what?).
Because all these motives seem very selfish to me and contradicts whatever I have heard since my childhood.
I think we all need something to keep motivating us for trying more and more continuously every day for the rest of our lives, and if we don't even know what it is, where it is and if it really is? How can we continue doing our practices with the best that we have?
Curiously
Manoj |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2014 : 7:32:38 PM
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EternalLearner,
I will try to help in my own little way.
Yogani say's that the way we are to judge our practices is by the positive effects they have on our daily lives. If you believe in nothing else, that must be true. If not, then why would we continue? That is what motivates us. I know it motivates me. As a matter of fact HERE is a thread I started asking that same question. What has always motivated me is the happiness I feel in my daily life 
I have never felt ecstasy in or out of practice. Nothing close to Samadhi. So it is not about that for me. Not that I wouldn't like it mind you  It will come in it's own time I am sure.
What is enlightenment, what is all this about you asked. I am sure you know already. You can not have been taught since childhood and not know.
I do believe you are right in that the motives are very selfish. To be one with your true Self is pretty personal. Not really something we can share like a sandwich. But this very personal, selfish practice has the effect of making those around us happier. I am alone in my practice. My wife doesn't talk with me about this stuff. No friends to share this with or family. This is it. My life is better, my kids are happier, my marriage is better. We rarely fight anymore. That is huge and it is just me changing. I hope my example will motivate my family to pick it up also but until then I and my family are happy with my selfish practice and encourage me to continue.
Being selfish can be good. It is just a thought. Part of enlightenment is freedom from the attachment to our thoughts. It is that attachment to our thoughts that is the source of our suffering.
I hope this helps and I would be interested in hearing about your current practice if you don't mind. |
Edited by - jonesboy on May 01 2014 7:39:54 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2014 : 7:49:26 PM
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Hi Eternallearner,
In my opinion, if you are perfectly happy with everything in your life, then there is no reason to seek anything more.
Again, in my opinion, it is not necessary to believe God is real, or to believe any of the stories people say about God. Even if none of it is true, and God is not real, I would still have faith and devotion to God.
Why? Because it is the faith and devotion that is of real value to us. There are many things our mind does that interferes with a peaceful, contented life, and those things are cured by faith and devotion. The best form of this faith and devotion must be to a power higher than ourselves, and we must believe this power is headed for what is best for mankind. This puts us in correct alignment with the universe, and also makes our lives better because our thoughts help create our reality.
Yoga practices also help calm the mind and straighten out erroneous mind patterns.
But don't feel obligated if you don't want to do them! There is nothing wrong with living life without yoga. |
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2014 : 10:06:51 PM
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what is wrong in being selfish ? In fact, I am trying hard to be as selfish as possible and I don't like that I am not :-)
This path has helped me in 'times of trouble', it helped me get through difficult emotional times, get over personal crisis in a rational manner, deal with job crisis, it has removed an almost permanent depression. For this alone, even ignoring any enlightenment possibility, I will be grateful that I chose the path.
it will help you down the road .. It is possible that if someone has always been practicing, then (s)he might not know the difference between what would've been if (s)he was not practicing. It holds similar for someone who has never practiced, because they will never know the difference.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2014 : 11:49:57 PM
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| Ultimately selfishness and selflessness are the same thing. |
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EternalLearner
India
5 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2014 : 12:23:19 AM
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First of all Thanks everyone for sharing your experience and knowledge with us all.
Yes, I know there is nothing wrong in being selfish. But what I meant for those lines was that this reason is contradicting the very foundation of dissolving selfish ego to be something more than just the mortal being. But if we are still being selfish in our path of dissolving the selfishness, then what is the purpose of actually taking up these practices, and working so hard for. I even know that this is also the path of getting detached from our thoughts and desires, which are said to be the cause of all our suffering. But when I think about it, it just seems to be paradoxical with the real journey. Because on a journey of being detached from our thoughts and desires, we all are desiring to be free from desires and attaching ourselves to that burning desire calling it as our devotion. May be on our path we will slowly get detached from our thoughts, and that was the reason for asking the question because I just seem to know what I have been told and do not understand them as they are actually.
NoDogma
quote:
It is possible that if someone has always been practicing, then (s)he might not know the difference between what would've been if (s)he was not practicing. It holds similar for someone who has never practiced, because they will never know the difference.
Yes, I think you are write. Now that I think of it this way I guess may be I just don't have anything of myself to compare my results with. I think because of this I have taken what was given to me as sacred, for granted. Thank You for making me look at it this way.
Etherfish
Yes, your are right. If we are happy with what we have it is also a type of yoga, and so we need not take up any other practices just for the sake of practicing them.
jonesboy
quote:
What is enlightenment, what is all this about you asked. I am sure you know already. You can not have been taught since childhood and not know.
Yes, I know what is enlightenment and what is this all about. But this was the reason for posting this thread. I just know about them as I said earlier, I just know whatever I was taught and told. But now that I think and wonder about all these things I just don't seem to understand them as they actually are.
It is Like I know there is some place in the World as USA because I have heard its name from others who have been there, read it on a map but I don't understand whether it is a country or a continent, if it really is there and where exactly is it, because I have never been there.
And I believe there is a huge difference in just knowing something and understanding it. |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2014 : 09:53:35 AM
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I dissagree, the fact that you are happy with your life doesn't mean that Sadhana is not neccessary, since sorrow may come anytime with the loss of someone dear, for instance.
Answering the question, I'll copy below an old post from Kriyawit that explains it pretty well:
[From Kriyawit:
So why do we want to unravel the knots, enter the Sushumna and unite at Sahasrara?
In a word Liberation.
Liberation from what?
Liberation from the mind and the emotions while living in this life with the accompanying misery and suffering that are the lot of those so unaware.
Liberation from being a pawn of the cycle of birth and rebirth.
So this term Liberation has a connotation of getting away from something Liberty, Liberation when this word is used it brings to mind the idea of someone held captive like a prisoner, a slave or someone who is living a life of enforced restrictions by an outside agency.
The natural dualistic understanding is that if you are not captive you are free ergo Liberation leads to freedom.
But what if your life is not that bad?
What if you have no reason to wish to be removed from your current life? Ah What then?
Everyone can well imagine being released from the burden of someone else's control, or a circumstance like being broke down on the road in the middle of no where. Being release from an old, crippled, deformed or sick body, but what about when everything is just fine?
This is where the whole concept starts to fall apart. Liberation without a gain in freedom or the alleviation or removal of suffering is not such a great deal now is it? or is it?
So then we come to the next reason well this has been a nice life, a good life I have people I love and people who love me. Now we have this thing called death it comes along and wipes everyone out. No one may escape death, the one you love will die and you will die the question is whom will go first?
Ah so now we are getting closer to a reason for liberation. But not quite there yet. People all know this thing called death will happen yet this is not enough to motivate them to do more than grab life by big lustful handfuls and experience as much as they can for as long as they can while they are here until they vomit and then do it all over again.
Death is something that always happens later, oops I am dying later is now. Then unconsciousness.
This is the fate of the majority now if you believe in reincarnation you really have a problem because now you have to go through it all over again from cradle to grave with no guarantee the next life will be as good as the last.
But still this is not yet reason enough. So what then is the reason what then is reason enough to seek liberation? I think it happens when the individual has laughed enough, cried enough, ate enough, drank enough, suffered enough enjoyed enough and has become sober and mature. I believe this is the way it works and no individual avoids becoming an adult, some just have more partying to get out of their systems.
I will share with everyone some of my life and from that perhaps others will learn from my living this life even as I have. From this perhaps my reason for practicing a sadhana of liberation will be understood.
These lives we live belong to God and the individual life this soul lives may be nothing more than a program another can and will as well ( trust me this theory came to me at the age of 11 long before there was a matrix movie. I remember being astounded when that movie came out how close to the theory I had long held someone else had come.)
Imagine being an infant and being stuck on you back like a turtle. Imagine laying in a crib with the scent of baby powder, white wooden bars to the left of you the right of you and above your head and below your feet. Imagine a field of whiteness in the far distance that is a blur and nearby something colorful and moving over top of you making a terrible sound as it rotates, the material beneath you is soft and fuzzy and too warm.
Imagine the sound of the voices of strangers speaking a language you can almost grasp but not quite. Imagine feeling everything the these strangers are emoting and understanding them on this level and being very uncomfortable and filled with anxiety and frustration.
Imagine trying to get up and walk away imagine trying to leave this place you find yourself in and get away from these strangers and go home. Imagine knowing you need to get home to your wife that you are late only to realize you do not remember where home is, you can only vaguely remember your wife.
NOW look down and see your body and recoil in shock as you realize something is dreadfully terribly wrong! Om My God are these my legs?? my arms ??? My hands??? cry out in abject terror and somewhere a baby is crying..
How am I going to get anything done with these? Why wont they work? What is wrong and then the startling revelation Oh No the heart sinking realization the utter certainty as reality hits home, the abject horror brought on by the inescapable truth, the feeling of failure when you realize I am here again oh no I have to grow up to make these things work I just can't do this all over again! and then merciful relapse into the infant brain that is not developed enough to handle this knowing and knowing this is the case as well.
Time passes the body grows the brain develops. You are told this is Mother, this is your Father but all the while you are certain that this is not so, that these are the strangers and their ways are not your own but you can not remember what your ways are.
Imagine feeling only at peace when sitting silently with crossed legs usually behind a room divider or behind a piece of furniture to keep others from seeing you and bothering you. Imagine making sure you always had legos in your hands so others will not question why you are sitting alone enjoying the peace only found by watching the breath and feeling the pranic body expand and contract with it but not knowing what you are doing or why. Imagine always hearing the sound of OM in an empty room and no one else does and seeing the air sparkle with prana when outdoors looking up into the sky but not know what it is.
Imagine the feeling of isolation to be with all these foreigners with such foreign ways and rude behavior and foreign body language they do not even move correctly. Imagine knowing that everything you were once a part of is gone and this is all that is left for you and you have to live here now you have to be a child to these people in order to survive until you can get out on your own. Imagine smelling the acrid stench of burning cow flesh polluting the air and being told to eat this, that this is your food.
Imagine being placed in public schools with all the noisy insane behaving young people so full of inexplicable animal behavior bereft of reason yelling screaming running around. Imagine being the witness to all of this and thinking I can not wait to grow up and not have this forced on me becoming fully grown can not come soon enough. Oh this is taking forever how will I ever survive this.
Imagine teachers demanding that you take tests and attempting to explain the utter absurdity of attempting to prove to another that you posses a quantity of knowledge in such a primitive way and that further more that within a handful of years the very purpose of the tests would indeed be meaningless as no one including the teacher will remember the contents nor will the relevancy of the demonstrated knowledge persist in the future. Imagine being forced to endure the sheer boredom of having to repeat the same lessons over and over when you grasped that 2 plus 2 equals 4 the first time around yet being forced to endure the same mind numbing repetition year after year.
Imagine your center mast of conscious awareness always feeling as if it were somewhere between 5 and 8 feet above your physical body and viewing life to include ones own mortal frame at times from this perspective like riding in a high seat while walking using divided consciousness observing from the eyes and the body but from that other vantage point as well.
Imagine sitting at a table with other young bodies with coloring books and feeling the energy currents moving in your body and being more identified with it than what is going on around you, then looking up and seeing a giant version of your own face looking down at you with a big happy smile peering over the rim of a fish bowl that you are in and represents the whole world imagine switching positions with this observer and then being both the observed and observer at once.
Imagine being 11 years old and dying at the bottom of a swimming pool with fingers stuck in the drain at the bottom only to find yourself laying over the side of the pool when you come to and there is no one there nor was there anyone there when you first climbed the 8 foot fence to go swimming in this commercial pool. Imagine coming to and feeling so at peace it is impossible to describe refreshed and feeling great like you just took a short trip home after being in the forced exhale to an alien place. Imagine crying for being here and not there but understanding this is the way it must be.
Imagine being all alone in a trailer park sitting on the top of a slide watching the cars go by wondering which one is your Fathers and when will he come home only to realize that it does not matter the loneliness you feel is for the Heavenly Father and the separation makes you cry even as you realize the human portraying Father will ever be separate and never was real only an actor playing a part and will one day to cease to play that part as his body dies and it was so.
Imagine sitting at a table with the boy named Rusty who has multiple scleroses confined to a wheel chair and in this person you know a friend from another time who is familiar to you and his form is not how you remember him and will not leave him and stick up for him when others a cruel, Imagine knowing he will not live to be old and in knowing this loving him all the more for it. And it was so.
Imagine all of this and more and always having a feeling like you are about to remember something that it is on the tip of your tongue but not quite, Imagine feeling like ah yes I have done this all before and being able to demonstrate understanding and skills a child should not be able to.
Imagine always being an older person an adult in a young child's body. Imagine hanging out with the old WWII Survivors of Auschwitz and only they who have seen and lived so much seem to understand you. Always with this child it is the extremely old that he is at home with.
Then imagine because you have such a blind spot in your memory you are not permitted to see through but live with your entire life that you hide yourself and not show because when you do and even in unguarded moment others realize there is something different about you something is not a match and it can frighten them if they look into your eyes because when they look at you it is like there is something else they are seeing but they are not sure what and it spooks them.
Imagine animals acting oddly around you coming up and wanting to be your long lost friend to the utter astonishment of their owners.
Now imagine realizing that you are missing your memories of where you came from before being born and know that you can not remember and also know that remembering will not help. Because it is the inability to completely forget that has made this life a review life rather than a new unique experience..
Imagine that the only thing you trust in or feel like you are at home with is your love and the presence of God whom you can not see but feel. Everything else is real but just so far and not all the way, there is always a divide. Imagine seeing the world as real but at the same time perceiving it as static by comparison to something else slow and frozen nearly inanimate. Not as alive as some other place you have been and are still connected to.
Years pass and you start putting the pieces together you have several accident related near death experiences and the peace waiting on the other side seems more familiar than the life here on earth in this faux body. From this you come to appreciate that you are free and nothing in this world can ever harm you because you are free to die at any moment and in doing so going home as it has never felt here on earth. Knowing this you come to understand that there is no need to be unhappy here it is temporary anyway so no need to rush things just figure it out as you go God has a reason for each of us being here and if we did not need it we would not be here. But what to do with all this freedom?
Seek the reason for being here.
Imagine sitting in a noisy room and placing all your senses and drawing all of your nervous system up into your forehead you see a white 5 pointed star and go into it in an instant you snap back and find yourself in the body and smile knowing you found the way out, but something is different you feel connected to everything and everything is known all of existence is your body and the answer to everything is that it is all so simple. This state persists for over a period of 12 hours gradually diminishing watching it as one would sand going out from an hourglass perceptions changed everything is filled with life and everything even the sand and rock are sacred. Imagine an expansion in awareness like this that you can not hold onto but also never return to where you were before this happened. I was 17 when this occurred.
Imagine seeking knowledge so you may better understand why you are the way you are and others not being able to understand what you are asking or relating. Imagine finding tons of false writings concerning the very things you are trying to better understand and after sifting thorough it all you come to the realization that you already knew all of this and more and the utter astonishment at reading Autobiography of a Yogis and breaking down in tears of gratitude and homesickness realizing yes this is my brother this is my family these people form far off India they are describing what I know, they are describing what I need to do.
Then imagine it is the year 1987 and there is no internet only public Libraries and book stores selling whatever the clearing houses deem money making fact or fiction it matters not. Then imagine the remains of the hippies with their new age book stores drug culture and all the silliness that went with them.
Imagine this and remember if you are of the age Information about Yoga was not available as it is today.
So I purchased some postage stamps and applied for SRF Lessons and eventually learned Kriya from them.
Imagine the disappointment I felt when I realized that bereft of Yogananda and the Masters of Kriya lineage that the organization that was started by such a great being was not something I felt at home with as it felt strange and alien to me and I simply did not feel properly authorized to practice Kriya.
Imagine feeling a love and affection for the little man with the odd expression on his face although very little is known of him and the stories are incredible to the point of disbelief surrounding him.
One day after many years I spoke to my only true relative and companion in this life at this point and I said I am sorry I apologize Heavenly Father I simply cannot do this alone I apologize for letting you down. If it is all right with you I will try to do my best to live a normal life and when it is your will that I find my Master please send him to me I trust in you but I just cant do this any longer by myself I just can not unravel this mystery and I am miserable and lonely trying to. I love you God Thank you.
Imagine finally putting all of this behind you and simply being in the world a householder this takes a long time to adapt to and one is never completely free of what one knows and what one is that is impossible. This turning away from ones own true nature goes on for 20 years and more I go back to school I get married etc...
Then imagine one night at the height of worldly immersion the depths of samsara finally reached being and belonging in this world as others are being woke up with a terrible pain in the center of the heart in your back where Anahata is located.
Imagine a pain so great you think you are having a heart attack. Imagine a pain so great that you wonder if this is a stroke? Imagine doing a self inventory and realizing there is no physical reason for this pain. Imagine that it hurts so bad that breathing hurts and you can no longer remain lying down so you get up. You are wide awake and get a glass of water and go to the bathroom and splash water on your face realizing you are going to be up for a while.
Imagine sitting down in a dark living room in a chair then imagine the area of your forehead lighting up and there you see Lahiri Mahasaya and he is taciturn of expression Imagine blurting out mentally Oh Master in sudden remembrance oh please help me master!
Imagine complete understanding running between you both in silent knowing happening at super speed images and feeling your masters disappointment in you and realizing that you have earned it and it is only the great compassion of the divine that is helping you and then feeling the Love and appreciation for both God and Guru that comes from all of this in an instant, then realize he is speaking for your benefit and instructing you what to do. You do as you are told and the pain starts to disappear even as you follow your Gurus instruction and with eyes closed you can still see his watchful face making sure you are doing as he has instructed feeling his presence in Kutastha as it is surly he who has opened your heart and caused this pain you realize this is your initiation. Falling asleep in a chair sitting straight up.
You wake the next morning with a echo of the pain still present in the region of Anahata knowing you have been authorized and so your Kriya sadhana begins.
If you my reader can imagine all these things then you will have an idea of that which I can report has led me to seek liberation in this life, perhaps we are much alike. I like to think so.
The Present:
Over the coarse of a year many things happen and you realize that from even 1 short year much has changed and the process continues.
With each passing day Liberation while in the body continues to develop and with this realization comes ever greater peace and one comes to consider ones self the living free this one is becoming ever more freely living while still in the body the work I do is being done by God this is being seen & experienced more and more as sadhana is practiced this is being felt more and more this is becoming more and more the reality of my existence here now. Here is a tangible example.
We have just remolded the kitchen in our home I did the tear out and the removal a company did the new cabinet etc.. install. So last Sunday I am taking out more of the trash from the old kitchen. I am 100% present but the work is without effort my core is unmoved as I am moving the rubbish from the back to the front. As I am admiring God's beautiful landscape of grass and trees and sky all glowing effulgent with inner light as I see more often from Kriya Sadhana which I know to be more of the true existence showing through it comes to me that the heavy rains have caused the grass to grow and it really needs cut so I take care of this chore and am amazed by how easy everything is going and how unmoved I am in my core by like or dislike all is equanimity and I am with God and God is doing the work I am the witness and the pilot all at the same time how free I am this is so wonderful. I can work forever it seems I will never know tiredness.
So this is my reason for sadhana and I am at peace with being here in Gods world now, when I was new here this time around it was hard being here I remembered enough of being elsewhere to make this unwelcome. Now it is like an old pair of shoes and my toes are starting to poke out and breathe the freedom. Some day I will leave here and someday I will return I hope to do so in good order without a missing memory and by volition of will to help others if it is Gods will but first I must continue to help myself.
This is my reason for untying the knots entering Sushumna and contacting Sahasrara. Maybe someone else will not feel so outcast if they read these words, this has been my life and continues to be so I share it as the demand to do so stirs in my heart with all whom may perhaps need to know you are not so alone you are not the only one and it is okay and it is going to be okay everything is alright right now.] |
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2014 : 07:31:24 AM
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Dear EternalLearner,
Kriyawit AKA Experiential Knowing has said it really well,as usually,thou that is his experience and you might have hard time to relate to it.
But what else one can say?
Write down theoretical definitions of what is it all about doesn't make much sense to me as you most likely are familiar with that from books.
So i am too gonna try to share with you my reasons and how i feel about it.Hope it will give you some foods for thoughts and maybe inspiration.
Let's say i am in cinema watching the movie.From very beginning movie is such a thrill,so well made,so amazing,so real,everything about movie is pretty awesome.It's so amazing that i got engulfed into the movie and i was thinking that movie is actually real.
Then,at one point,i suddenly startled and realized that movie is not reality and that i am just watching it i cinema.I realized that it's not first movie i have been watching like that in cinema.There have been many,many movies,all kind of movies actually.Some were happy,some sad,some horrible,some meaningful...actually,there have been themes more than one can figure out.Then i realized that i am bored of watching movies in that cinema and that there has to be more to it.I don't want to watch those movies over and over again as it doesn't make sense at all.After seeing them pretty much all,it's time to move on.Then the question popped.
Who is projecting all those movies?What or who is actually behind that game of light and shadows?One that projects such stunning movies must be the greatest being ever!
So by following the trail of light one can get to projection room in cinema,place where movie is "brought" into existence thru game of light and unlimited skill of Operator.As one is getting closer and closer to Operator's room one can sense greatness of Operator more and more,one can sense peace,love,bliss... and is reassured that his course is set to right destination.One feels that actual home is in that operation room,which is abode of great Operator,as movie which comes from the Operator is just that-a movie.Game of light and shadows that is not real but can trick ones mind into thinking it's real.Movie which is there to educate,then entertain,exists there only to make us open our eyes to the fact that it is just a movie,and then follow the light trail back to source of it.
So by such realizations,my course is set towards that abode of beloved Operator which lives in stillness,behind vibrations of the movie He is projecting.One of the reasons for it is that i don't want to watch movies any more.Had enough of it.They don't entertain me any more,they don't trigger/make desire for any kind of interaction with the movie.Also i don't want to be in the movie ever,ever again and not be aware of beloved Operator.For me it's like stumbling in pitch darkness without any light,bumping on the way on all kind of things.
Another reason;i would love to help others,when time comes,to follow that trail of light,which is coming from projection room,so that they too can get to Operator.Once when one gets merged with Operator,this becomes kind of duty,i believe.
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Edited by - Sol Invictus on May 06 2014 07:42:26 AM |
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Whoziz
USA
18 Posts |
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inescapable.kiss
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2016 : 5:19:05 PM
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"Yes, I know there is nothing wrong in being selfish. But what I meant for those lines was that this reason is contradicting the very foundation of dissolving selfish ego to be something more than just the mortal being."
If I understood you correctly, then:
There are selfs; ego-self or ego-mind and The Self. Feeding the ego-mind means feeding the illusion; that selfishness is "useless", "bad", "separated" so on and so forth.
Feeding The Self - or however you want to describe the journey of realizing you are The One (I don't want to get caught up in semantics and technicalities of mechanisms here...I hope you understand what I mean) means feeding Truth or Ultimate Reality, etc.
Is that what you meant? |
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