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rgnyc
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 27 2014 : 10:07:46 PM
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In my first post, I recounted how I got here, and what a transformative event it was. I still get glimpses of this new realm once in a while. I also read posts relating the astounding things happening to others on this forum, and the reason I am heartened by these reports is because I have seen wisps of the same things for myself. I am, however, in the best scientific tradition, trying to falsify my assumptions.
If enlightenment is the process whereby a person discovers he is God, made of God-stuff, as is everyone and everything else, and his mind becomes aligned or attuned with that of God, then how is it possible, or how possible is it, for such a person to do what is “wrong”, i.e. harmful or hurtful to himself or others? I'm sure he still has free will, but his inclinations would prevent him from doing “wrong” as surely as my inclinations would prevent me from cutting my hand off even though I have the free will to do it if I choose. Do I misunderstand what enlightenment is? I'm sure I may be missing things. I gather that there are many stages of enlightenment, and just because one now knows that he is God doesn't mean he has lost the capacity to make mistakes, since he still inhabits his body.
Before my Kundalini awakening, I had given up on spiritual pursuits. I thought my spiritual longing was wishful thinking, or some neurological mechanism gone awry. The only reason I got onto this path again is that I was forced onto it by necessity, i.e. the Kundalini awakening and it's effects. Now that I am on the path, I can hardly believe my good fortune. I still wonder if I am just kidding myself about enlightenment or other benefits though. I'm not interested in all the beautiful scenery, I hope for wisdom. If I become wise and knowledgeable, I'll know God is real, and not just lots of dopamine. I'll also be more disposed be loving and to do good in the world. Even if God and enlightenment is an illusion, any system that causes people to become loving and selfless is OK with me.
I am still trying to come to terms with all I have been through, and I am still conflicted about the things in my own mind. I am a rational person, one who values science, and the way it allows us to figure out how the universe works just by using observation and experiment.
Now I am in a world that is all conundrum:
There's nothing to do,
but I must do it.
I am already there,
but I must walk the path.
I'm not sure there is a God,
but I am God.
I am God,
but I yearn to be one with God.
I may reach enlightenment,
but I may not then be perfect.
It's impossible to understand,
but I try to stop trying, and keep on walking.
Oy.
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Edited by - rgnyc on Mar 27 2014 10:48:05 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2014 : 11:01:32 PM
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http://www.aypsite.org/120.html -- "Getting Enlightenment"
http://www.aypsite.org/260.html -- Enlightenment vs. Perfection
 Heaven on Earth ... seems like there's plenty of work to be done, considering that we still have things like, oh, I don't know...war, poverty, widespread disease, and of course, suffering (limited identification with the physical body)...
Maybe personal enlightenment is only palpable when it's integrated into the global, and dare we say, "cosmic" picture.
Resilience. Versatility. Tranquility. 
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2014 : 12:06:37 AM
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I agree; there are fights going on in the media about whether God is real or not, and whose religion is valid, and why someone else's beliefs are ridiculous and couldn't possibly be based upon the truth.
I can't help but think they are all missing the point by concentrating on those issues. Beliefs and religions are powerful tools that work, not only for enlightenment, but to erase chronic mind malfunctions like habitual fears and worrying.
Especially in today's world one could be overcome with a hundred things that point to the end of mankind, inevitable hardship in the future,or the destruction of the environment, the planet, etc.
Faith and devotion are the easy solutions to all of those problems, and it is completely irrelevant whether God is real, or the stories behind a religion are true. The fact is, those beliefs and practices turn hell into heaven, and transform one into the best they can be.
This in turn, contributes to the world in the best way possible. |
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2014 : 10:01:39 AM
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| The idea and mental constructs we try to fit enlightenment into is the illusion. The potential to go beyond mind is real though. Pointless to think about it. Thought brings you in the opposite direction. Do your sadhana without expectation |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2014 : 8:08:53 PM
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Namaste All
Agreed! "Enlightenment" by enigmatic necessity alone, precludes subjective quantification or logical deduction, as these are founded upon the known... and the ordinary patterns of our own merry-go-round of self-mezmerism.
That being said, all of our sincerest efforts at intentionally moving beyond the boundaries created by the gravity of the relative self, create in positive increments, the clear and clean emptiness so needed to bloom exponencially (blissfully, ecstatically and euphorically). 
The only limits we are bound by, are those we choose to accept. Our God-given birthright is our ability to shift our attention towards the real and everlasting, in preferrence to the illusory and transitory. This is our collective blessing! Ideas and conceptual constructs are like bubbles... with no eternal permanency, they are mere phantoms.
When mind ceases to dominate conscious-awareness, reality without ideaological projection booms resplendently. While we may never actually label such a state, we can believe it is our destiny to merge wholly within. I say go for it (while seeing the sheer irony of grasping at the ungraspable). For we are already That and naugh else but That!
Om Namah Shivaya |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2014 : 2:46:53 PM
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Enlightenment represents a goal to which desire provides the motive force to action. It is no different to the desire to drink a cup of coffee or kiss a pretty girl.
It is the acknowledgement of seeking a path to a destination which is other than the place or circumstance we currently inhabit.
We have no idea what enlightenment is, where it might reside or what it might take to get there. We can only hold a faith that it is somehow superior to our present position and cultivate the desire and do such practices as we feel are necessary in an attempt to reach it.
The path IS change regardless of the merits of the goal. The change is imperceptible to the one who changes-although sometimes you are informed of those changes by those around you.
What I think is difficult to understand is that you cannot ever see the route you might have taken had you not decided to seek enlightenment. We can however see that in nature that a seed can only remain a potential flower if it chooses not to grow towards the light. While it remains a seed that is all it is and it cannot know it may become a flower. The flower-on the other hand -has no inkling that it might have remained a seed because it has already become.
What is enlightenment to a flower. 
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2014 : 6:43:01 PM
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I read the previous post and this one. Quite interesting. From the perspective of someone still not experiencing these kinds of things, it's interesting that even after some intense "scenery", the doubt creeps back in.
I've no real insights here, but is suspect I'd be of the same mind as you are. I've always got lots of questions :) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2014 : 07:31:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman
I read the previous post and this one. Quite interesting. From the perspective of someone still not experiencing these kinds of things, it's interesting that even after some intense "scenery", the doubt creeps back in.
I've no real insights here, but is suspect I'd be of the same mind as you are. I've always got lots of questions :)
What 'things' do you think are being experienced ?  scenery is just the minds way of trying to convince you that the goal has been reached, is getting closer, should be given up.
Convincing yourself its a good idea to follow an intangible, invisible, unprovable goal is seems pretty foolish-where a materialistic world view is established- if you think about it
All that is possible is to cultivate a desire to be constantly 'other' than the position you currently inhabit. Like straining against air it is impossible to feel a materially resistive force, there is no obvious foe, the only one resides in your own mind and it is here you must battle.
There are no outward signs of winning or losing the battle. If any exist at all for you then these you have created yourself. Concentrate on pulling the needle of your mind and the thread of your soul through the canvas and don't be in a hurry to see what tapestry might be formed there. You will neither have the distance or eyes to see it. All you will glimpse is a disorganised mess of coloured threads and you will want to stop out of frustration, or in the belief you have created a masterpiece-but your senses are deceiving you both ways.
Your senses lie to you, they are distorted by your own beliefs and desires. Just like the witches looking glass 'mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all'. You see, hear, feel, touch, smell and think yourself one thing or another. It is dreaming.
Allow yourself to be frustrated, or imbued with success, just keep a small part inside that knows both are impostors, a part that knows you only dream it. Neither believe that the dream is more nor less important than anything else, for surely in a dream you can only eat dream food and be hurt by dream weapons.
I can only reassure you and try and calm your fears and doubts. There are no great revelations or changes just a growing expansion like a balloon in which you add some small percentage of breath through effort. It is the journey that brings the wisdom and not the destination.
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Edited by - karl on May 11 2014 07:36:06 AM |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2014 : 10:50:28 AM
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Karl: one of the nagging thoughts I constantly have is whether or not these experiences are just aberrations of the biochemistry of the brain. Strokes, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizophrenia — these can induce mystical states, hallucinations, and other experiences that skeptics have pointed to to invalidate the experience.
Of course, the question remains: why then are these systems in the nervous system in the first place?
I dearth with some pretty severe depression in the recent past (partly what led me to meditation), and when the depression lifts (and it lifts like the flu going away), it can be very disconcerting to realize how your personality can so drastically shift just due to some uncontrollable biochemical reactions in the body. It seems "real" when trapped in the experience, and trivial once free of it. The shift is quite fast. It can be disconcerting because the permanence of the identity you identify with is called into question.
I suspect the same might hold true for spiritual experiences. Of course, I am talking out of my muladhara since I have no direct experience of any of this at present. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2014 : 12:17:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman
Karl: one of the nagging thoughts I constantly have is whether or not these experiences are just aberrations of the biochemistry of the brain. Strokes, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizophrenia — these can induce mystical states, hallucinations, and other experiences that skeptics have pointed to to invalidate the experience.
Of course, the question remains: why then are these systems in the nervous system in the first place?
I dearth with some pretty severe depression in the recent past (partly what led me to meditation), and when the depression lifts (and it lifts like the flu going away), it can be very disconcerting to realize how your personality can so drastically shift just due to some uncontrollable biochemical reactions in the body. It seems "real" when trapped in the experience, and trivial once free of it. The shift is quite fast. It can be disconcerting because the permanence of the identity you identify with is called into question.
I suspect the same might hold true for spiritual experiences. Of course, I am talking out of my muladhara since I have no direct experience of any of this at present.
Are you frightened that meditation might be a way of triggering another depressive bout or that meditation is producing a similar disconnected reality in the same sense as someone having a depressive bout ?
Where you are now is where you begin from. Its important to realise everyone's situation and experiences are unique. That means we cannot compare directly against each other's situations or progress. You must be aware of your own proclivities and fragility.
A lot of beginners are so hooked up on practising hard that they don't understand the importance of self pacing or the part grounding plays. Practises can be the equivalent of over watering a plant and forgetting about planting it in some good soil.
Others are almost too timid, frightened to death they may break something they can be found not watering enough. All this is because they have not yet learned to listen to their own internal Guru. Not cleared a space enough to hear the small voice which cannot be heard amongst the rush of thoughts.
Your fears are rational, but if you take it slowly and carefully then you will see that far from becoming part of an even deeper dream you begin to wake to the world like a flower opening to the Sun. You will know its right because you will be in harmony with yourself and your doubts and fears will diminish and eventually vanish.
Its important to pay heed to the tiny, still part that knows what your intellectual and sensing side cannot. Even if you are depressed, drunk, drugged, dying etc, this part remains in awareness yet offers no explanation or solution to any plight you might be enduring. It does not matter if this is the scenery of meditation or a deep depression this tiny still part can be used as an anchor. The more it is heeded the greater becomes its effect. This is cultivation of the witness. Its a tiny weak flame that can be encouraged to become an intense, pure blaze that eclipses fear and pain.
You have this place within you, you need only be still and listen. Even when you doubt it, or drown it out it remains waiting to be heard with infinite patience and absolute loyalty.
One step at a time. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2014 : 4:14:51 PM
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Karl! You old son-of-a-gun! I thought we had kicked you off. Old habits die hard, I guess.
Kidding, kidding. Love you man. Your words are ringing more true than ever. Ring, ring, ring...vibrations float across this digital bandwidth of bliss-wave frequencies...
...this transmission did not occur, and "I" was never here.... |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2014 : 02:05:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman
Karl: one of the nagging thoughts I constantly have is whether or not these experiences are just aberrations of the biochemistry of the brain. Strokes, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizophrenia — these can induce mystical states, hallucinations, and other experiences that skeptics have pointed to to invalidate the experience.
Of course, the question remains: why then are these systems in the nervous system in the first place?
I dearth with some pretty severe depression in the recent past (partly what led me to meditation), and when the depression lifts (and it lifts like the flu going away), it can be very disconcerting to realize how your personality can so drastically shift just due to some uncontrollable biochemical reactions in the body. It seems "real" when trapped in the experience, and trivial once free of it. The shift is quite fast. It can be disconcerting because the permanence of the identity you identify with is called into question.
I suspect the same might hold true for spiritual experiences. Of course, I am talking out of my muladhara since I have no direct experience of any of this at present.
Are you frightened that meditation might be a way of triggering another depressive bout or that meditation is producing a similar disconnected reality in the same sense as someone having a depressive bout ?
Where you are now is where you begin from. Its important to realise everyone's situation and experiences are unique. That means we cannot compare directly against each other's situations or progress. You must be aware of your own proclivities and fragility.
A lot of beginners are so hooked up on practising hard that they don't understand the importance of self pacing or the part grounding plays. Practises can be the equivalent of over watering a plant and forgetting about planting it in some good soil.
Others are almost too timid, frightened to death they may break something they can be found not watering enough. All this is because they have not yet learned to listen to their own internal Guru. Not cleared a space enough to hear the small voice which cannot be heard amongst the rush of thoughts.
Your fears are rational, but if you take it slowly and carefully then you will see that far from becoming part of an even deeper dream you begin to wake to the world like a flower opening to the Sun. You will know its right because you will be in harmony with yourself and your doubts and fears will diminish and eventually vanish.
Its important to pay heed to the tiny, still part that knows what your intellectual and sensing side cannot. Even if you are depressed, drunk, drugged, dying etc, this part remains in awareness yet offers no explanation or solution to any plight you might be enduring. It does not matter if this is the scenery of meditation or a deep depression this tiny still part can be used as an anchor. The more it is heeded the greater becomes its effect. This is cultivation of the witness. Its a tiny weak flame that can be encouraged to become an intense, pure blaze that eclipses fear and pain.
You have this place within you, you need only be still and listen. Even when you doubt it, or drown it out it remains waiting to be heard with infinite patience and absolute loyalty.
One step at a time.
I only mentioned the depression because the personality shift was so distinct, and observable. I'm not concerned that meditation will trigger depression. I was just using it for an example of experience/perspective shifts that are a result of changes in brain chemistry. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2014 : 05:24:11 AM
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| Then that may well be the case. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2014 : 05:30:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Karl! You old son-of-a-gun! I thought we had kicked you off. Old habits die hard, I guess.
Kidding, kidding. Love you man. Your words are ringing more true than ever. Ring, ring, ring...vibrations float across this digital bandwidth of bliss-wave frequencies...
...this transmission did not occur, and "I" was never here....
I pop in from time to time. Its good to visit and catch up with friends sometimes a subject catches my attention. |
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Is Enlightenment an illusion (revised)?
