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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 11 2013 : 11:44:11 PM
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| "God is Truth, the world is untruth; this is discrimination. Truth means that which is unchangeable and permanent, and untruth is that which is changeable and transitory. He who has right discrimination knows that God alone is the Reality; all other things are unreal. When right discrimination comes, then rises intense desire to know God. As long as one loves untruth, such as the pleasures and comforts of the body, fame, honor and wealth, so long one does not desire to know God, the Truth. Right discrimination between Truth and untruth leads one to search after God." |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 11:49:23 AM
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 12:07:11 PM
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 12:31:43 PM
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| Beautiful |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 1:22:22 PM
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God is the untruth, as well.  |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 2:11:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
God is the untruth, as well.
Hmmmm.. or is the untruth the mind's interpretation of God's truth.  |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 4:24:39 PM
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Hi Chaz
Thanks for posting this, it got me contemplating a little and from my perspective to open it out a little because it initially it did not ring true, but then I realised that was in my interpretation.
So here is what stumbled into my mind
The "changeable and transitory" are in themselves ever changing and in transition. The only thing that is permanent and stable is change itself. Coming into the moment to moment experience of right now is constant change and is itself a permanent state of changing, and yet it is stillness itself.
Like a person walking up a down escalator, from the side they might look like they are not moving, but in fact they are in constant walking motion up the escalator.
So the reaching for God, as I see it, is reaching for this present moment to moment ever changing now in and amongst the ever changing environment in which we find ourselves.
What takes us away from this present moment are things, like those described, such as desire for wealth, for honor, for fame etc., the untruths that cause so much suffering.
The "world" as I see it, is the world of desires for the pleasures in life, and the world of pushing away the things that upset us. The "discrimination" is in being able to experience this process and also in accepting ourselves with all our imperfections with kindness and compassion towards ourselves.
Bit of a mouthful, but it makes sense to me, at least
And I know this was provided as a stand alone quotation, but just reflecting a little, Thanks |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 7:44:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
God is the untruth, as well.
God is the light that illumines something to be the untruth. Even ignorance (of Truth) arises from God - God is all there is. If this is known, "untruth" has been seen through, and therefore no longer exists. Prior to this becoming a reality however, duality has one in its tight embrace. And so one needs to exercise discriminative wisdom.
Read a beautiful quote recently:
"The One existing as many is Maya (illusion); inability to see the One in the many is Avidya (ignorance)"
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 7:47:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Like a person walking up a down escalator, from the side they might look like they are not moving, but in fact they are in constant walking motion up the escalator.
So the reaching for God, as I see it, is reaching for this present moment to moment ever changing now in and amongst the ever changing environment in which we find ourselves.
What takes us away from this present moment are things, like those described, such as desire for wealth, for honor, for fame etc., the untruths that cause so much suffering.
The "world" as I see it, is the world of desires for the pleasures in life, and the world of pushing away the things that upset us. The "discrimination" is in being able to experience this process and also in accepting ourselves with all our imperfections with kindness and compassion towards ourselves.
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 8:33:45 PM
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Hi Sparkle
When I posted this I had a feeling it would bring up a response like yours and Bodhi's and I'm glad it did. Some contemplative discourse can help shed some light on the meaning of these words. :)
My interpretation of what is being said is that God is a Truth which has no opposite. In the relative world of form there are many contradictions, for every truth has an opposite truth. I think what Ramakrishna was trying to point out is the only truth we should cling to is an eternal one. He says God alone is the Reality, all other things are unreal. To me this meant that to believe in the things of this world as anything other than That/God is to believe an illusion, or untruth. We recognize that stillness is the Reality, and that life manifests as stillness in motion. The constant here is stillness. We know that when names and forms are totally gone to us, there will be stillness. We know that even as the constant flow of life goes on around us moment to moment, there is stillness. The way we see Truth in the world of change and transition is in our relationship with it in stillness. So I don't think Ramakrishna is suggesting to completely deny the experience of the world and it's constant flux as untruth, but to recognize that there is one Truth that drives the changes and transitions, and that is stillness. To believe in the world and in what is changeable and transitory without recognizing the unchangeable and permanent aspect of that, is to believe in untruth.
This was my interpretation, pretty similar to yours maybe? I agree with you that change is pretty permanent as we see things now. I also think that our definition of change is our reflection on things being different from the past. The flow of life, stillness in motion, can be perceived as ever changing and impermanent when we compare this and that, then and now, but if we simplify it to one constant that's in all the paradox, even change might not feel so much like change at all, just stillness expressing itself as always.
Perhaps I'm going too deep into my own philosophy here and it may not resonate with everyone. Hopefully I'm making sense. Just thought I'd share my take on what was said. Am open and interested to hear any differing opinions and interpretations. :)
P.S I know nothing.
If anything written above sounds like I'm coming from a perspective of having actual facts, I do apologize. These are just my own interpretations and attempts to make sense of what I have so far learned and experienced in relation to these teachings |
Edited by - Chaz on Nov 12 2013 8:44:33 PM |
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 9:00:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
God is the untruth, as well.
God is the light that illumines something to be the untruth. Even ignorance (of Truth) arises from God - God is all there is. If this is known, "untruth" has been seen through, and therefore no longer exists. Prior to this becoming a reality however, duality has one in its tight embrace. And so one needs to exercise discriminative wisdom.
Read a beautiful quote recently:
"The One existing as many is Maya (illusion); inability to see the One in the many is Avidya (ignorance)"
I resonate with this completely. Thanks for sharing Kami, beautifully said. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 9:14:20 PM
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This single passage just might be the most profound statement I've ever read on Truth.
It articulates the journey of our entire human "experience" to a tee.
Thank you for sharing Chaz. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2013 : 9:18:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
God is the untruth, as well.
Hmmmm.. or is the untruth the mind's interpretation of God's truth.
My mind, my mind, my poor little mind. Like a litte church mouse scrambling in the dark, it found some fireworks and became an illumined little-church-mouse mind. The Cathedral of Reality never seemed so big as when I stopped trying to figure it out and started giving into the beauty, which is ever so abundant.
Like a villain masquerading as a laid-back boy, I dig into the depths of my soul to find truth, untruth, and everything in between. Anyone who proclaims finality or absolutism is a fool that's stopped digging. I left that club a while ago.
This love has got no ceiling. This truth has an endless bottom. Rip open my heart and find the diamonds, if you wish.  |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 09:15:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
My mind, my mind, my poor little mind. Like a litte church mouse scrambling in the dark, it found some fireworks and became an illumined little-church-mouse mind. The Cathedral of Reality never seemed so big as when I stopped trying to figure it out and started giving into the beauty, which is ever so abundant.
Like a villain masquerading as a laid-back boy, I dig into the depths of my soul to find truth, untruth, and everything in between. Anyone who proclaims finality or absolutism is a fool that's stopped digging. I left that club a while ago.
This love has got no ceiling. This truth has an endless bottom. Rip open my heart and find the diamonds, if you wish.
I share this sentiment regarding untruth. The divine play is beyond limited comprehension. The most fundamental distinctions became intellectually untenable for me some time ago. I thought this was a symptom of philosophy, but that is just another game of make-believe. But even fables have a moral.
Please let me share this poem from July:
Sight and Vision
Can you see beyond?
Some condemn blind faith.
Darkness is blinding, and so is light.
Which will put out your precious sight?
The blind see what others cannot.
Where are truths?
Gems in the ocean, many sides, many faces.
Frozen in the cold, so dark, so deep.
With no light to shine, the sides are as teeth.
Against mystery rationality braces.
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Edited by - Anima on Nov 13 2013 09:37:48 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 12:13:35 PM
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Bravo, Anima, bravo, my good friend.
Might I be so bold as to suggest that the fastest way to reach non-duality is to throw oneself wholeheartedly into the world of duality, or, another way to say it would be: to reach truth, blaze with open heart mind into the wild and murky world of untruth, and the two will be merged. Truth and untruth. God and the devil. Maya and nirvana. Stillness in action. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 8:05:34 PM
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Interesting points Bodhi and Anima.
"Might I be so bold as to suggest that the fastest way to reach non-duality is to throw oneself wholeheartedly into the world of duality"
This has been my experience firsthand to a degree. Such an action is fruitless however if one is lacking discrimination i.e. unaware of their own unique Secret Place (Oneness/Silence/Stillness/Union) with the Divine.
In fact, I see this same truth expressed in the original passage quoted for this entry:
"God is Truth, the world is untruth; this is discrimination."
How can one acquire this discrimination without studying and experiencing the world around them as it appears e.g. false flag terrorism, central banking and usury, medical fascism etc, etc?
So ironically, I see no discrepancy between your own observations and Ramakrishna's statement above.
Blessings
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 9:00:56 PM
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| Thank you, mattb. Thank you very much indeed. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 12:29:59 AM
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You're most welcome dear friend.
When one studies the qualities of God in print they are bound to come across common themes, such as Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient; Immutable.
The most practical labels, in my mind/heart/experience, is "Immutable" and "Stillness", because they're the simplest to decipher. Yes, there are worldly and experiential "truths", and these truths can lead one closer to Truth. The love of a father has for his son is true. The love a wife has for her husband is true. The visions one may experience in meditation. These are experiential truths. However the expression of these things are transitory, therefore they are not God.
Yes, the essence of the man's child is God. The essence of the wife's husband is God. The Life Force we all share is God (in essence). However their forms and expressions aren't God. Many of us mistake our transitory forms for the Divine. The tragic loss of a son (in form) for instance, would literally be the death of many parents out there. They simply and understandably wouldn't cope.
Whereas if they were anchored in Truth, they would freely experience a natural and healthy period of mourning (as part of their own unique human experience), however long it took, and Trust/Know their son is in Divine Hands. He was born of the Divine and returned to the Divine.
In other words, their tears (all that pain, despair and anguish i.e. energy) would ultimately be transmuted into a deeper realisation of God. They would gently, patiently and persistently offer it ALL to the Silence/Stillness within.
One of the most powerful experiences I've had in this lifetime was a lucid dream.
In Truth this was merely a figment of the imagination. But it was also a real experience nonetheless. One that I honour and value as being sacred. The same way as a parent honours and values the sacred duty of being a parent, even more so, if they are aware of God!
Why? They are knowingly in tune with a transcendent love, freedom and harmony, the average person has yet to realise.
Our thoughts, feelings, energy bodies, physical bodies, manmade establishments, nature etc, all these things are changing. Yes, they happen within the mind of God. Call it the creative, dreaming aspect of God. But NO, they in and of themselves aren't God. They are mutable. The Divine is Immutable!
Ramakrishna eloquently and adequately explains ALL of this in those few words. Amazing!
Peace Brother
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 08:55:21 AM
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Jesus said: "Behold, I have become human. If you do not become divine with me, you would do me wrong." God became man, see?
You can believe all you want that the mutable aspects of reality aren't God, but for me, that is an erroneous and misleading mindset. I believe humans were made in God's image, and just as an image is projected from a source of light, man is projected from God. The light and the image are not disconnected. They are one. It's just that they exist in different shades of unmanifest and manifest.
If life and form are to be treated as sacred...if our bodies and objects of physicality are to be regarded as living gifts of the immutable One, then there is naturally a corresponding belief that God IS IN these things, and therefore, God IS these things.
Jesus said: The body is a temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.
Being a good little consumerist American boy, I've treated my body and the world like a garbage can, rather than a living embodiment of the Spirit, and I have paid a price. However, since shifting gears and regarding the body with a new reverence and sanctity (perhaps with an equal and proportional zeal that I have for the absolute, intransitory aspect of God), my quality of life has improved considerably, and that is realer than any metaphysical or theological belief. I still have a LONG WAY to go.
Also, for anyone who speaks with any kind of absolute or firm conviction about what God is, or is NOT, I hold in suspicious view. For me, God is eternally mysterious, as is life, and therefore not easily categorized into manifest or unmanifest. You can't capture a mystery or catalogue it like a library book. The mystery remains intrinsically elusive and expansive. The mystery is free.
I was watching a YouTube video of a popular Advaita teacher, and he said: "Life isn't a mystery." That pretty much sums up many of the Advaita teachers for me. They've touched the shore of the unmanifest Absolute (supposedly), and therefore, there's no more mystery. In AYP, that's called the illusion of attainment, or the non-duality trap. They've arrived! (wink wink).
Anyway, to each his own regarding beliefs, but I find it helpful to offer a diversity of viewpoints. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 3:50:23 PM
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Brother Bodhi,
The only way to respond appropriately is to write from my own unique point of view and experience.
I have studied Life from the perspective of which you speak inside-out. I have studied Life from the perspective in which Advaita Vedanta speaks, and more.
I see no inharmony between the two.
My previous post alluded to this, but didn't go in depth on the subject.
One of my favourite metaphors is the metaphor of the dreamer, because it can teach us on so many levels.
Let's revisit my lucid dream for a moment. I experienced rapture, divine bliss in that moment! However, can I say that "I am the Dream"? No. The dream was a passing experience. On the other hand, could I say "I am the Dreamer". Absolutely! "I am" irrespective of the experience.
That's how I see this worldly, human life. It's sacred, beautiful - captivating!
We are experiencing ourselves as an individuation of God! It's astonishing!
God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent; Omniscient! God is Being-Awareness-Bliss!
Any individual that believes he/she can realise ALL of God as an individuated expression of the Divine likely are sorely mistaken. I wouldn't know for absolute certain of course. I'm on the same journey you're on, in my own unique way.
The human experience, or even the energetic experience (if we'd like to go deeper e.g. chakras, kundalini, qi, prana etc), is just that - an experience. This individuated experience of the Divine is EVER deepening. How can there be a limit to ones individual realisation of the Infinite? I can't comprehend the thought!
Maybe the most precious aspect of this gift we've been given is its uniqueness for each and everyone of us. This gift has bestowed us with countless tastes, colours, sizes, experiences, spiritual paths etc, etc, etc, to explore and enjoy. However this doesn't make it real in an absolute sense nor does it deny the existence of an Absolute Reality, in my view. God is the one and only Absolute, and we are in no way separate from God (in essence).
And our greatest gift as divine instruments and expressions of God, is the eternal journey of expanding our experience of the Absolute forevermore (if we wish).
Peace and Love, Brother |
Edited by - mattb23 on Nov 15 2013 05:40:28 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 4:33:53 PM
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I'm with you, my man. Thanks for vibin' with me. I'm gonna hop in the shower and use some coconut shampoo that I like, then I'm gonna meditate and do samyama, then I'm gonna go to Starbucks and support that evil empire, then I'm gonna go to an AA meeting and listen to a bunch of recovering drunks ramble on about their respective spiritual paths.
Much love. Catch you on the flip. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 8:51:18 PM
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| Indeed...fo sho! |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2013 : 05:50:15 AM
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Serendipitously I stumbled upon this 2 page document earlier today:
http://2travel.org/Files/EmmetFox/GoldenKey.pdf
It was originally published in 1931 as a leaflet.
Ironically I've been absorbed in this very idea and practice of late! It's the same key I inadequately tried to convey here.
Beloved Friends, enjoy!
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2013 : 12:23:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mattb23
Serendipitously I stumbled upon this 2 page document earlier today:
http://2travel.org/Files/EmmetFox/GoldenKey.pdf
It was originally published in 1931 as a leaflet.
Ironically I've been absorbed in this very idea and practice of late! It's the same key I inadequately tried to convey here.
Beloved Friends, enjoy!
Hi Matt,
Thanks for sharing - love it. My own modification of this technique is called (by me ) "relax into divine presence". Worry and anxiety (all sorts) causes a state of contraction into "smallness" if you will. Simply learning to relax into the present moment releases the contraction. And by such relaxing, the ever-present sweetness of divine presence looms large, dwarfing all pettiness and eventually obliterating it. Very much in line with Byron Katie's profound teaching that all such states of contraction arise from stressful thoughts, and thus seeing that without that thought, the problem doesn't exist ("who would I be without this thought?") And in that expansion, all sorts of insights into issues and problems happen spontaneously. And love flows.
Love your posts and your wisdom.
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Ramakrishna - Truth
