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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 01 2013 : 2:36:18 PM
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Just being vulnerable here and leveling my spiritual pride...any experience-based wisdom and insight would be appreciated...(I know the answers already intellectually, but the neurobiological transformation is another story).
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Smoking cigarettes brings no real satisfaction, pleasure, or fulfilliment on any scale, yet it's something I've fallen into doing compulsively again--mostly asking my housemates and other AA people to to let me bum one when I'm around. I've only bought a pack or two on my own.
The smell is slightly repulsive and certainly unpleasant. The inhalation creates an unsettling of the stomach sometimes, especially since my deep breathing results in the constant absorption of air into the stomach, below the lungs. My only explanation for why I continue is because of my empathic susceptibility and weakness while being around more avid smokers. There's definitely no more "buzz", and in fact, smoking often kills my natural buzz derived from the ecstatic bliss of meditation.
Sometimes I think thoughts like: "Well, maybe I'm absorbing the addiction of others, or purifying my nervous system in a radical way--kind of like swallowing the snake venom to cure the bite." But, that's probably total bullsh*t. In all likelihood, it's just another symptom of will-power weakness and lack of self-control.
Now, it's been said that no amount of will power or self-control can rid someone of serious addiction, like smoking or drinking, and the only way to be free is by surrendering to the "higher power". Well, maybe so, but when does the higher power actually remove the compulsion? Is it when the desire to quit is so strong that there is an automatic shut-off of any reflex to smoke, and therefore an impervious neutrality that is no longer swayed by any temptation. Must be. I've quit smoking before, and that was pretty much what happened. But it took many tries, until one day, I finally stopped biting the hook. But, I've bitten the hook again--this time prompted by dating a woman that smoked, and even though I don't see her anymore, I'm surrounded by other smokers, so I continue.
Part of me doesn't even want to quit because I'm ashamed that it's actually an issue I have to address. It's like I want to ignore the whole thing and just stay in a witness state where there's no need to make adjustments. But, my ego-mind keeps bothering me about it--reminding of the stupidity and futility of the habit. And that is why I don't believe the ego is the enemy. I believe the inner monologue of the ego can point towards enlightenment. Obviously, it can point in the other direction, but the ego-voice must be a friend, as well. Otherwise, the design of the human personality would be so fundamentally flawed as to render the life experience a waking nightmare constructed by a cruel creator, and that's not a possibility. There's too much genius and progress to consider that to be a possibility. It's only by virtue of free will and experimentation that human beings have been allowed to stretch the limits of absurdity and material manipulation.
Anyway, I want to be done with this stupid activity.   
Is it will power, or surrender, or both? |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2013 : 11:01:34 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
It's a good dilemma. I'd put it like this:
1) I've experienced compulsive behavior, so I'll relate my experience.
2) Will-power, of the "I'm going to make myself quit!" kind, in my experience, simply does not work for resolving addictions or compulsive behaviors like this. Don't conceive of yourself as lacking will-power or whatever, there's no need for labels, that's just a thought.
3) The essence of active surrender is releasing attachment to a particular outcome (such as being able to quit), accepting that ultimately you don't have control (if you did have total control, you'd just be able to say "I decide to quit as of now" and that would be it) YET still gently favoring positive change in the same way we gently favor the mantra.
4) We don't force ourselves to stay on mantra, we don't make an intense effort to stay on the mantra, we don't beat ourselves up when we notice we're off the mantra: no, we just gently return our attention back to the mantra. In the same way, I've actually found that the best way to resolve compulsive behaviors is with the same subtlety, effortlessness and non-attachment that one engages in favoring a mantra during meditation.
5) The intention to stay on the mantra is a firm one. It's so firm that for 20 minutes attention is returned to the mantra every time it wavers. In the same way in daily life, intention to change is a very firm one, and anytime we become aware of deviating from that intention in daily life, we resume our gentle intention towards being free from that behavior, with the minimum of fuss.
6) On a practical note, for me this might involve: Releasing the intention to change during Samyama every single day, watching youtube videos about smoking and its effects on the lungs (not reacting to them emotionally and beating myself up, but just dispassionately choosing to become hyper-conscious about exactly what smoking is doing to me), Remembering daily exactly why I have the intention to change, and just gently taking 10 minutes or so to think about it. Not shying away from any emotions it may bring up when I consider what I'm doing to myself, but not indulging in them either.
One thing's for sure: If we make quitting more stressful and painful than the smoking option, we're probably going to quit quitting soon enough! Might as well make quitting something really kind, loving and gentle that we are doing for ourselves. It's actually a wonderful treat we are giving ourselves to stop poisoning ourselves.
That's it really. Active surrender - turning the ultimate outcome over to a greater force, acknowledging that as a limited and separate individual we don't really have control, yet gently favoring the change and releasing the firm intention to allow the occurrence of change.
I've found that works, and it comes without the need for blaming and beating ourselves up (rather than just gently and easily returning our attention to favoring the intention for change). Wow I feel like I repeated myself a lot there.
Love,
J |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Nov 01 2013 11:11:16 PM |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2013 : 02:07:15 AM
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Hi Bodhi and Josh,
I have had bouts with the same thing, smoking and quitting, repeat... quit many times for anywhere between minutes and years.  The reason for starting again is usually the same: A trigger such as stress followed by the craving/thought about smoking. What usually happens after that is saying/intending "no" or "not now," or considering it and subsequently giving into the craving, smoking a cig. The sequence of events and how they are seen and approached seems to be crucial here.
When I have successfully averted smoking there are a couple of conditions: I am firm and consistent in my intention of "no/not now." Not entertaining the idea of having a cig- at all. If it is considered, 99% of the time I give in eventually. Usually it doesn't take very long. The craving assumes the role of "I" and as long as the door is open for the possiblity, all kinds of rationalizations appear.
I've found it helpful to view the craving as an entity in itself. "I need a smoke." Really? Is that true? "Okay, no maybe not. But I really want a smoke." Really? As long as I'm imagining things, why not see a dirty old cig with a face saying "I want to smoke!."  Which is slightly more accurate... The substance habit is effectively the craving. I've found the same phenomenon with alcohol, ganja, and some types of food, among other things.
In the many times I have not succeeded in quitting, there was a common factor: the unwillingness to allow the craving to be with me as it is, and giving in to satisfying it. Often I remind myself that I do not want to smoke, it is the craving wanting to satisfy itself. By firmly and consistently applying/releasing genuine intention, and not indulging the desire to escape/satisfy the craving, but accepting it, the chances of not smoking are much higher. Of course the craving passes, usually within a minute. It is another opportunity to return attention to awareness/presence and allow the craving to be here as long as it is.
Mr. Anderson, thanks for your post. That is a great strategy in general, and certainly applies to quitting smoking. Also, on "quit day" and for the first couple weeks or so, I have found "will power" to be helpful. From my perspective, presence (or ishta) is strength/will power. Samyama/pray "strength" is good too when it feels appropriate.
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Edited by - chas on Nov 02 2013 12:20:57 PM |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2013 : 02:08:47 AM
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My Very Dear Bodhi,
I don't even know why I am commenting on this thread, I just stumbled upon it for some reason. I don't have any personal experience with smoking cigarettes, except for a few weeks when I was working on my Master's thesis in California, I smoked Sher Bidis, an Indian cigarette made from tobacco rolled in a leaf of some kind. I have no idea why, but it seemed to help me write my thesis ("The Psychology of Nonattachment in the Bhagavad Gita"). I did not find them addictive and I've never desired them since.
I am actually allergic to regular cigarettes - EXCEPT for the natural ones, e.g. "Native." This leads me to suspect that my allergy may be due to the MANY horrible chemicals added to conventional cigarettes, including nitroglycerin, formaldehyde, etc., etc. My husband is a cigarette addict and I can totally tell the difference when he smokes commercial cigarettes, versus the Native ones. Even the smell of the regular ones makes my skin, eyes and nose itch, whereas the Native ones don't bother me hardly at all. "They" (the cigarette industry!) claim there is no difference in terms of health, but I question that. All those added chemicals cannot possibly be good for you. So if you must smoke, maybe check out the organic/natural ones.
My husband has tried nearly every form of smoking cessation known to man, including the gum (said it was icky), the patch, the electric, the vapor, etc., to no avail. He still smoked while on all of those! He also sat with me at my stepmom's bedside while she died a horrible, painful death from lung cancer/chemo (the cancer was bad enough but it was the chemo that ultimately killed her; chemo is WAY more toxic and carcinogenic than cigarettes). Of course, he has an "addictive personality" and has been addicted to everything from soda pop, to cannabis to alcohol to cigarettes to video games and has approximately the spine/willpower of a slug (not to denigrate slugs). But -
and this is what I'm getting to - I have met people who successfully quit crack and/or heroin and yet were never able to quit cigarettes!!
I'm not saying this to discourage you, by any means. Rather, I am saying it to point out that tobacco (or at any rate, commercial cigarettes, which may very possibly contain other chemicals designed to promote the addiction) is PHYSICALLY addictive. i.e., "will-power weakness and lack of self-control," as you put it, likely has very little to do with it. Therefore I am recommending, as Josh said, that beating yourself up is unnecessary as well as pointless.
I do know someone who overcame smoking cigarettes by using Chantix, a prescription speed/antidepressant. It worked. He then had to wean himself off the Chantix. Upon doing so, a formerly thin and "healthy" person, he suddenly put on at least 50 pounds and his blood pressure went through the roof and now he is on blood pressure medication, probably for the rest of his life (as blood pressure medications are extremely physically addictive and if you go off of them, you'll be worse off than you were before).
So I don't know what the answer is and, as a nonsmoker, I don't have any real personal experience to go from in this regard. My 16-year-old residential therapy client smokes and when I described my step-mom's horrible death to her, she blew out a puff of noxious smoke and said in a jaded tone, "We're all gonna die of something," which is, of course, true, although lung cancer is an icky (and mostly avoidable) way to go, especially if you are unlucky enough to have insurance which covers mainstream oncology "treatments," which will only prolong and intensify your agony, while bankrupting you and your family (I've worked in oncology for over 20 years).
You said,
Otherwise, the design of the human personality would be so fundamentally flawed as to render the life experience a waking nightmare constructed by a cruel creator, and that's not a possibility.
In my darker moments this seems like a very real possibility, LOL!  But, I know and love the Creator too well to believe this for very long, and I know you do, as well.
Don't know what to tell ya, bro. Other people have managed to overcome this and therefore I think you probably will also. Meanwhile, please don't beat yourself up. All the best to you and lots of LOVE.  |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2013 : 02:55:06 AM
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I have what you could call an addictive personality, I won't go into detail on that, but I have found a way to work with it that has proven beneficial for me.
Whenever I notice that I have become addicted to something.. anything, I get disgusted in myself. Once that happens, instead of judging it.. I go for broke and surrender to it completely. Because inevitably, I make myself entirely too sick to continue.
In essence, I have to get angry to make the change. But once that happens, it's a foregone conclusion. When I set my sights on something, I'm like a dog with a bone. In that sense, I use the addictive/obsessive/single pointed focus to good use.
I quit smoking a decade ago, and instead of gaining weight.. I lost 30 lbs. I wanted to prove to myself that it could be done. That actually was the beginning of a cascade of positive changes in my life and I think back upon it with great fondness.
Anyway, from my perspective the answer to your query- "Is it will power, or surrender, or both?" Is both.
And as for the aids to quitting, I myself didn't care for the idea of being reliant on yet another substance. I found much more comfort in my own will to improve.
But we're all different, and you'll find your own personal formula. I'm sure that just admitting the problem here will be helpful :) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2013 : 10:40:05 AM
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Hi Bodhi,
Why not just watch yourself the next time you want/take a cigarette? Trace the energy flow and the automated response to it. See what you find...
Best regards,
Jeff |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 09:21:58 AM
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Wow. Yet another reminder as to why I post on these forums. Lots of great insights and experiences.
@mr. anderson
One thing's for sure: If we make quitting more stressful and painful than the smoking option, we're probably going to quit quitting soon enough!. Yes, quite brilliant. Easily favoring. Active surrender. Less is more. It's been two days now with no smoking, and last night I was standing next to someone smoking, and that knee-jerk reaction to smoke was not arising, and I think it's because of that exact posture of easily favoring the freedom of not wanting--that you mention. Also, favoring the freedom to be more deeply purified so I can experience more ecstatic bliss (shameless bliss addict, I am). Thank you. Well elucidated, as usual.
@chas
I've found it helpful to view the craving as an entity in itself. Ahhhh, I like this. Kind of demonic, in a way, when the craving becomes a more solidified aspect of self. That inner voice and feeling wants to carve out some kind of permanent niche so it can attain personality and energy. I guess I'll just not wrestle with it, and let it dissolve in abiding serenity. Also, thank you for being quite honest about your ongoing struggle--you have a clear understanding of how to be free, based on experience.
@Radharani
Of course, he has an "addictive personality" and has been addicted to everything from soda pop, to cannabis to alcohol to cigarettes to video games and has approximately the spine/willpower of a slug (not to denigrate slugs). LMAO! He should come hang out with my family...a real rag-tag group of addicts, ranging from blue-collar rawness to high-society pretension. I've hung out in trailer parks and yacht clubs on both sides of the family--drunk some of the finest wine from crystal glasses with my mom's side, and smoked crystal meth out of tin foil on my dad's side. Addiction crosses all socioeconomic borders in my family! Ahhhhh...that's why I like your posts, Radharani, always gritty and real, but also full of wisdom and compassion. Thanks much. Yes, thank you much indeed. I will pray for your husband as we both seek to disentangle from these low-vibration modalities and elevate to higher ones.
@shakti
When I set my sights on something, I'm like a dog with a bone. In that sense, I use the addictive/obsessive/single pointed focus to good use. Superb. Crisp. Clear. That is awesome. That's exactly what my theory is on addiction--that instead of being a "disease", it's simply just misdirected bhakti. Once we re-direct the "desire energy" and single-pointed focus to a more fulfilling goal, the problem is solved. As of late, I've had some lovely stretches of getting high off oxygen and merely breathing, so I think I need to focus more on spinal breathing, which has fallen off my daily routine. I'm steady with DM and samyama, but the SBP has not been consistent. This may be a red flag to reintroduce it to the regimen. Thank you, most beautiful and stunning shakti.
@jeff
Why not just watch yourself the next time you want/take a cigarette? Trace the energy flow and the automated response to it. See what you find...Ah, in true jeff style, short and sweet. Yes, I like that technique. Even tracing the energy flow now, I am finding that the current (or thread) doesn't run very deep. It's a shallow level in the karmic matrix. The energy flow which drives me to do other practices runs much deeper.
Well, thank you all, for taking the time to address this. I have found that just spilling my guts and laying this on the table has already done much to remedy the suffering. Just like in AA, when there is an open forum to bring some dark demons out of the closet, much progress can be made.
I have great respect and admiration for each of you individually, and so glad to be trudging ahead with you via this global community.
Health. Unity. Strength. Inner Sensuality. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 12:41:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
@jeff
Why not just watch yourself the next time you want/take a cigarette? Trace the energy flow and the automated response to it. See what you find...Ah, in true jeff style, short and sweet. Yes, I like that technique. Even tracing the energy flow now, I am finding that the current (or thread) doesn't run very deep. It's a shallow level in the karmic matrix. The energy flow which drives me to do other practices runs much deeper.
If it doesn't run deep, why do you follow it? Why does the desire seem beyond your control?
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 1:21:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
If it doesn't run deep, why do you follow it? Why does the desire seem beyond your control?
Well, I'll quote a song I like called "The Devil and I" by Amy Correia:
I'm lying on my back
Looking at the mirror in the ceiling to remind me:
I'm weak.
But my spirit ain't been broken
I'm looking for my subway token
I can hear the train coming but I ain't out of the woods yet.
It's like that, you know. As we shake off these karmic tendencies, there is some control, I believe. It's just a gradual process of loosening attachment to desires/outcomes, but also fulfilling the desires/outcomes we want to experience (from an individual perspective). Sri Yuktewsar said that Babaji constructed a massive mansion for him out of thin air, just so Yukteswar could experience the grandeur of walking through that kind of luxury. He wanted to fully exhaust all worldly desires so he could be satisfied.
So, I would say smoking is merely a residual, fledgling shadow, much like a fly that pesters the face of a horse and needs to be swatted away. And after as many attempts as necessary, the fly will be permanently extinguished, and there will be no more pestering. Sure, at one point, the horse wanted the fly's company, but that time has come and gone. The fly may disagree, but there will be some mutual understanding that will ultimately resolve the relationship until the fly leaves the horse alone. 
All is relationship. Relationship with human and substance. Relationship with individual and the One. Relationship with stillness and ecstasy. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 3:13:12 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
At the risk of inviting cynicism, I'll chime in a little.
Even though I have never been addicted to substances, I deal with addictions on a daily basis in my work. It is ironic that I choose to counsel about addictions, particularly cigarette smoking, since I don't really have to and can refer folks to appropriate counseling services. Ironic because of the life-long aversion I've had to it. Thus, counseling smokers to quit is a great teaching for me and has allowed me to loosen up in incredible ways.. Particularly when I see that I'm also an addict, as we have discussed here:http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....12997#111702
In my opinion, will power isn't enough and doesn't work until the underlying hunger is resolved. Everyone I know that smokes tells me they quit until there is a "trigger" of stress, being around another smoker, anxiety, depression, etc. One might think that negative health effects of smoking would provide over-riding stress and motivation to quit - but this is not the case with the majority of addicts. I routinely see people with advanced smoking related cancers, COPD, heart disease, debilitating strokes that continue to smoke, simply because the underlying hunger remains strong and over-rides any desire to quit.
Ultimately it comes down to desire IMHO. The question to ask is, What do I want more than anything else? The mind may say things like "Divine union", "God", etc but that may not be in sync with the deep-rooted (albeit subconscious) desire (hunger) for something else. Until that deep-rooted hunger is identified and resolved, there will always be a conflict between "will and surrender", and addiction to "stuff", be it substances or non-serving patterns. For example, the hunger may be for love or acceptance from others, which never gets fulfilled until there is total love and acceptance of oneself. Addiction will tend to fall away once there is non-discordant resting in that fullness.
Surrender cannot happen if there is speculation about it. There is no logic in surrendering and ultimately no conflict with will in true surrender - whose will? One may say "but individuality is preserved or valued" - that isn't true surrender. Surrendering is a deep willingness to lose individuality, beyond logic and intellect. What happens "after" surrendering is also not subject to the logic of individual will. After going in circles about "will vs. surrender", I've come to see that as long as I'm thinking about surrendering, I'm not really surrendering. And that is because there is an underlying hunger to be seen or heard or something else (clinging to individual will)..
Just my two cents.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 3:47:57 PM
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I agree with a lot of that, kami. Desire is the fundamental ingredient, and I think any destructive addiction will reveal a pure desire that has grown perverse, for whatever reason. It all starts out good, then grows bad, because of diversions from divine will. But then again, divine will encompasses ALL, so diversions are just a form of divine will, aren't they? I don't think we're pulling any tricks or surprising God with our antics. God isn't thinking: "Oh boy, I never saw THAT coming!" LOL. Know what I mean? It's all part of the game, the drama. We just to get enjoy an individualized perspective of said game and drama.
On that note, I would definitely wholeheartedly disagree with you on this statement: "Surrendering is a deep willingness to lose individuality..." Going back to the mention of Sri Yukteswar, who was the guru of Parahamsa Yogananda: Yogananda wrote about Yukteswar's resurrection in a beautiful chapter of his autobiography. When Yukteswar appeared to Yogananda, he said he was residing in a higher celestial realm--aiding in the liberation of the highly evolved beings there. And he said that once re-joined and swimming in the ocean of the Infinite, individuality is still preserved. In other words, the essence of individuality is eternal, just as the essence of The Whole is. Jesus Christ also taught about this--basically hinting at eternal life in heaven next to His Father.
But, that is some nice tension and torque that exists between our exchange, and I know why you prefaced the post with the mention of cyncism. I don't have any cyncism about your perspective--I mainly just adore your conviction and the uniqueness of your spiritual qualities and feminine strength. If there were no disagreements, it would be boring. I enjoy getting entangled in healthy wrestling, so long as there is no cruelty or hatred underneath, which there's not. There's only more desire to break through to a deeper understanding and richness of experience, which so often comes in the form of our relationships with fellow human beings.
Anyway, your clinical counseling with recovering addicts sounds incredibly genuine, and so I value your opinion highly, as usual. Thank you for jumping in, and next time I see you in person, maybe we can smoke a cigarette together. LMAO. Kidding, kidding. I'm done with that garbage! |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 4:15:48 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
Not quite sure what we are disagreeing about.
I'm familiar with that chapter. However, I was referring to the willingness to let go of the "I-ness". Arguments about whether there is retaining of individuality are fun intellectual exercises, not surrender. Surrendering is to be ok to let go of it not knowing what may happen. Ramana Maharshi would say there isn't an "I" left. There is a difference between individuality and clinging to it.
To me surrendering is a totally heart based thing, beyond the confines of the intellect. It is simply letting go knowing it is fine to do so. Like falling asleep at night - nothing to "do" to fall asleep, just happens.
Can't say I will be over my aversion of cigarette smoke by the time we meet next. So, I might have to pass your kind offer.
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Edited by - kami on Nov 03 2013 5:23:25 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 5:29:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Arguments about whether there is retaining of individuality are fun intellectual exercises, not surrender. Surrendering is to be ok to let go of it not knowing what may happen.
Ahhh, now THAT, I can relate to. Surrendering to not-knowing, rather than annihilating individuality.
You sure I can't get you revved up to smoke a cigarette with me? I mean, I'm pretty sure there are some revered masters that chiefed down the tobacco from time to time. C'mon, it's all God's creation, right? Maybe with a little synthetic manipulation here and there, but the essence is pure. Innocent children inhaling carbon monoxide on God's green earth. Aghora.  |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 6:23:41 PM
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Anything for you dear Bodhi.
Love you. |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 1:22:16 PM
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Hey Bodhi Tree, I just wanted to mention one more thing that helped in my journey to quit smoking. It was simple, yet profound and very difficult at first..
Think of yourself as a non smoker.
It started out feeling like a lie, but eventually became my reality.
Namaste :) |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 4:02:27 PM
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| Dear BodhiTree, Thank you so much for your prayers for my husband! It will help him to know he is not alone in his struggle and that even an accomplished yogi like yourself can have the same struggle. I will let him know and we will pray for you, too. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2013 : 12:32:25 PM
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Perfect timing, shakti. Two days ago I was talking with an AA buddy who has been smoke-free for many years, and he said the same thing. Affirm that you are a non-smoker! I haven't smoked since I started this thread, and the craving hasn't arisen (even while standing around smokers) so I think I may have crossed the threshold. Who knows. Time reveals the truth. Thank you for sharing your experience.
@Radha
One less obstruction for the nervous system to purify. I'm addicted to unconditional bliss, and not ashamed to admit it! Thanks for your candor, as usual. Birds of a feather... |
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Smoking cigarettes--yay!
