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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 1:29:29 PM
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"How important/detrimental is it to want to be better/more?"
"How important/detrimental is it to be at peace/content?"
These are ongoing inquiries here so thought I would offer them up to you too. 
Love!
Carson  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 7:40:40 PM
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I am content with my constant need to be better. I am at peace with the evolving nature of my being. I know my personal story is small in the grand scheme, but what other options do I have? If I can be nestled in between the bosom of unshakable stillness and the animated charge of ecstasy, then perhaps I stand a chance at serving the deeply encrypted purpose of life.
Sometimes, I have the fleeting sense that the eternal Now contains all elements of past, present, and future, and so I realize there is no need to race or hurry because no chances will be permanently missed. But, nevertheless, the fuel of bhakti propels me to take advantage of the opportunities before me. I have a small fear of being reborn and having to go through certain "trivial" stages of development, but who knows, so much is still unclear when it comes to the past and future.
At least I have some comfort in residing in a mostly clean conscience...knowing that I'm a little more attuned to the magnetic pull of the cosmic destiny than I was in the past. But aren't we all? I think this game of spiritual practice is just accelerating a process that's already inevitable. By virtue of free will, we have the choice to waver between contentedness and progress...maintaining the speed and rhythm that feels right.
As Bob Marley said: "Strike the hammer while the iron is hot. Open up your heart. Let love come running in." And he sung those lyrics in a song entitled "Mellow Mood", so I think the Rastafarian had a good handle on self-pacing. 
Great questions. A good template for self-inquiry into self-pacing. Thank you, Carson. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2013 : 10:51:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
"How important/detrimental is it to want to be better/more?"
"How important/detrimental is it to be at peace/content?"
These are ongoing inquiries here so thought I would offer them up to you too.
Love!
Carson
Hi Carson,
Taken together they are very deep and powerful questions that point the way. Thank you. 
For me, Bodhi describes striving for the balance pretty well. The only thought I would add to it is a simple analogy...
A flower in it's own pure nature desires to grow, expand and spread it's seeds. This expansion happens naturally with the support of it's friends (sun, water, wind, insects...). Residing in it's own nature, the flower is at peace with the outcome.
Peace,
Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Jul 21 2013 1:22:58 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2013 : 12:09:48 PM
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Funny you should share this dear Carson... I am going through the same inquiries myself... I have found it in my own inquiry that the want to be "better, more or content" is ruining my peace or stability... That hunger for more is an issue for me and always had been... If I let go of the want I am at peace but then after a day or two the want creeps in again and good bye contentment.
I've been reading the autobiography of Saint Theresa of Avila and at some point she says that one of the biggest downfalls a spiritual seeker goes through is thinking that by his own efforts alone he would push through/further... The answer she says is in surrendering to a higher power. We do our part but we surrender concerning the end result. God/Allah/Truth or as Jeff put it "sun, water, wind..." will take us higher when It sees the time is fitting.
Love,
Ananda |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2013 : 5:25:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
A flower in it's own pure nature desires to grow, expand and spread it's seeds. This expansion happens naturally with the support of it's friends (sun, water, wind, insects...). Residing in it's own nature, the flower is at peace with the outcome.
"Life's a garden. Dig it." --Joe Dirt |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 5:20:16 PM
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Hi guys, thanks for commenting.
What this inquiry does for me is highlight when I am stuck in identification.
Anytime I notice that I am trying to "better myself" I also now notice that I am stuck in a belief that "I" exist.
This leads me into question 2... which in the past has lead me into the mental answer/story that being content leads to stagnation. I've mentioned my tendency to fall into this trap before here at the forums.
What question #2 eventually led to is question #3... "Is it just a story/belief that when there is peace/contentment, that there is no motivation for further growth/expansion?" The result of this inquiry is a "softening," or a loosening of the story/belief as it is seen as obvious that they are just that, stories/beliefs... it is only a story that infinite peace stifles further expansion.
What I've come to notice is that the more effort I actively expend in trying to better myself, the more I strengthen the false sense of "I." This (at least for me) now includes formal practices. I no longer seem to be able to do any formal practices without directly strengthening this sense of "I." All I seem to be able to do, without falling into conflict with the knowing that "I" don't exist, is sit still and observe. No mantra, no directing the breath, no working with the energy, no trying to do anything in particular... only sitting and noticing is allowed now.
Has anybody else had to go through this phase?
Love,
Carson |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 5:58:00 PM
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Your answer to your questions was exactly what I thought when I read your post.
quote:
Has anybody else had to go through this phase?
Absolutely, yes. When I do formal practices, the I sense is strengthened. Just to sit and observe is the best practice for me. I might do Om chanting if inspired to, but just for the love of the Om sound, not as a practice. Why do formal practices sometimes strengthen the I? Because structured practices are a subtle doing, and its hard to avoid them containing an intent and sense of doership. In just sitting still, which is no practice at all, even the doer comes undone.
The Self, in its aspect of formless awareness, has no agenda, no motivation, no goal, no desired outcome in mind. It illumines ignorance and enlightenment equally, regarding expressions of hatred and malevolence with the same gaze that regards love and kindness. It's altogether beyond these opposites.
To simply sit still and observe (when you have cultivated enough witness consciousness) is the most powerful practice for ego-undoing. Because the ego is always trying to get somewhere, do something, achieve something.
The Self doesn't share this nature. It's absolutely fine with whatever appearances pass through it. It's just like the empty space in a room, the space isn't affected by what happens within it. The space doesn't say "No, I want to see good things in the space" or "Oh yes I like this!". It's free from such preferences, content with what is.
Just sitting, and observing, we let go of that identification of trying to get somewhere or do something, and we ourselves become like the empty space in the room, content with whatever appearance may arise.
What is happiness? Not a particular feeling surely. All feelings, all states, come and go. It is the nature of things that pleasure and pain chase one another. True happiness is not a move to a positive state, it's just the total absence of resistance to whatever is taking place, right now.
Do you feel me or am I ranting?
love
josh |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Jul 22 2013 6:01:44 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 6:01:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Do you feel me or am I ranting?
I feel ya brother... we seem to be on the same page for sure.
Love,
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 6:17:56 PM
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That's a peaceful place to be, Carson. Just being. Just noticing. Just witnessing. Upon reading your post, I can empathically sense the serenity. If you're intuitive self-pacing tells you not to use the mantra, then bravo, follow the flow.
But the statement "'I' don't exist" is problematic, in my opinion. That's erasing the ego, which is an act of the mind, as Yogani says. I would consider the possibility that you do exist, even as the ego; it's just that you exist on many levels...with stillness being the foundation of all experience.  |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 7:56:02 PM
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Upon realizing no "I" Adyashanti exclaimed his realization to his master, who hit him very hard with a stick and said "Then who did that hurt?" 
I don't think Carson is taking a mental stance "I don't exist" he's simply referring to the experience that occurs when awareness dis-identifies with form, and one directly experiences that I am That to which the body-mind appears, my identity is not limited to the body-mind. The true I, the Self, so to speak encompasses all.
Therefore I see no conflict or distinction between what you and he are saying. My two cents anyway.
Love,
Josh |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 8:11:43 PM
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Thanks for taking the words right out of my mouth Josh... saves me the time of saying them myself. 
Love,
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 8:29:07 PM
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Excellent vignette from Adyashanti's experience. Thank you for sharing that, Mr. Anderson. That sums it up perfectly.
And I'm glad you saved Carson the time at not having to say anything himself. LOL! Good times, good times. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 8:53:12 PM
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Hey we're all not-two right? I guess I actually saved my Self the time of saying them my Self?
Or something like that anyway.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 9:08:16 PM
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I'm starting to have uncontrollable bouts of laughter while sitting at my work desk right now  , and co-workers are beginning to notice, so I think I'm going to have to read some Herman Hesse to dampen the mood. Nothing like a little Hesse to bring that German austerity into the mental atmosphere. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2013 : 9:47:45 PM
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 01:22:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
I don't think Carson is taking a mental stance "I don't exist" he's simply referring to the experience that occurs when awareness dis-identifies with form, and one directly experiences that I am That to which the body-mind appears, my identity is not limited to the body-mind.
On a total side note, but regarding losing the identification with form, I broke my right elbow (technically the neck of the radius) two weeks ago while skateboarding a tad beyond my abilities... the orthopaedic surgeon put me in a cast/sling with instructions to do no pushing, pulling, twisting or lifting and that I could only use my arm to eat, write and brush my teeth for 10 weeks... and to be very careful after that.
This experience was much different than the ear surgery I briefly described here (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....12994#111143) as there was no suffering even though there were extreme amounts of pain. I even laughed, while tears rolled down my cheeks and the body went into full shock during the xray process.
I believe (but can't yet prove), that the lack of identification and solid beliefs in the limitations of the body frees the body/mind up to the possibility of "speed healing" and more. I'm currently testing the waters with this broken arm. I took the cast off after 1 week and am using the arm (gently) as I normally would. I can not yet lift heavy items or fully rotate the forearm at the elbow, but I hope to beat the 10 week healing time the doctors have estimated and be back riding the skatepark in a few more weeks.
Love,
Carson |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 01:50:59 AM
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quote:
Upon realizing no "I" Adyashanti exclaimed his realization to his master, who hit him very hard with a stick and said "Then who did that hurt?"
quote:
hope to beat the 10 week healing time the doctors have estimated and be back riding the skatepark in a few more weeks.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 11:09:06 AM
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| You're a true ecstatic mystic, Carson...laughing during pain. Your health is in my samyama subtle vibrations. Stay strong in the Spirit, of which the body is but a tiny reflection. Unity! |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 11:19:27 AM
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Hi Carson ,
Just adding my two cents..
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Has anybody else had to go through this phase?
Heck, yeah. I call it the "spiritual bipolar phenomenon" - calling it a "disorder" would mean only a few go through it.
As you say, it is all about identification. What I'm finding is deeply humbling - see, it does not matter what I do; there is a back and forth between being identified as the ego or not. But each time there is loss of that self absorption, it is worn back a bit "looser" when it returns, if that makes any sense. When there is loss of that ego identification, I'm inclined to not practice at all and wonder what the fuss is all about. This can go on for weeks or months. When the ego is donned again, albeit a bit loosely, there is a renewed fervor with taking up of rigorous austerities and practices..
But....
In all of this, there is not much that I am doing or controlling. I cannot make the ego identification go away or return. I cannot even find the reason for wanting to be "better" as you say - when sincerely looking for an intent, nothing comes up. I now sense that I am at the mercy of Life playing through me, taking me through the troughs and valleys of ego identification, working out whatever needs to be worked out. Of course, the mind will want to take ownership of it all..
The question you are asking (at least my interpretation of it) is: act or just be? And I say, the finesse in yoga is to just be and act. ("One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction is wise among men, and he has transcended even while engaged in all activity. Gita IV:18).
How many examples there are of this! Just look to the right of this page and all the books that have come out (in just a few years) of one man just being and acting (or wanting to be better, in some sense). In just being, we can get out of our own way and allow Life to work through us, including the taking up and discarding of sadhanas as they manifest and serve their purpose. The key for me is to see that the wanting to be better/more is also not mine. In that, I'm content and at peace even while the striving goes on..
Love and samyama for that arm. Yes, I agree that belief is the root of health, disease and healing. A new study from Framingham reported that people who believed they were at risk for heart disease got it more often than those who didn't. Go figure..
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 10:19:21 PM
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Hi Kami
Thank you for sharing.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
The question you are asking (at least my interpretation of it) is: act or just be? And I say, the finesse in yoga is to just be and act. ("One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction is wise among men, and he has transcended even while engaged in all activity. Gita IV:18).
I love the quote. But "act or just be" wasn't really the question I was asking. I actually wasn't asking a question at all, other than "has anyone else experienced this?" There actually doesn't seem to be much disconnect between "acting" and "just being" anymore. At this point it seems to be mostly about following the inner heart, or whatever you want to call it. Following the inner guru I guess in AYP terms. I'm literally not allowed to use the mantra or direct the energies with breathing or other means (at least right now). Weird things happen when I try. At first I woul pass right out (literally black out) or become so physically uncomfortable that it wasn't realistic to continue etc etc... to the point that I had to really investigate what I was doing. And then it became obvious that there was still someone who thought they were doing something. And once that was seen (for the millionth time I swear) things got even weirder when I tried to use a mantra or breathing practices. But I still kept getting called to my seat in the mornings... I just wasn't sure what I was supposed to do. So eventually I just listened (for instructions). And that has basically become my practice now. Listening/watching/waiting, whatever you want to call it. It's just paying attention really. Silly I know. 
quote:
Originally posted by kami
Love and samyama for that arm. Yes, I agree that belief is the root of health, disease and healing. A new study from Framingham reported that people who believed they were at risk for heart disease got it more often than those who didn't. Go figure..
Thank you (and you too Bodhi!) very much for the love and samyama. It's felt and greatly appreciated. The healing is coming along nicely. I was able to lift about 5lbs with no issues today and even changed out some locomotive computer screens (pretty heavy) with little pain or issue. Most people around me don't believe it's busted.
Love,
Carson |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2013 : 12:04:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
"How important/detrimental is it to want to be better/more?"
"How important/detrimental is it to be at peace/content?"
These are ongoing inquiries here so thought I would offer them up to you too.
Love!
Carson
Hi Carson,
I interpret this to contain eight questions, distinct from one another, depending on perspective. Which lens should we use: The kaleidoscope or microscope? There is one direction of inquiry that I can clearly indulge, indicated by the paraphrased interrogative below:
“How detrimental is it to want to be more?”
As detrimental as the sum of all mankind’s tragedies. As Spenser says, “He that strives to touch a star oft stumbles at a straw.”
Tragodia
What is our stage? The play of life. Dramatis personae: tyrants, titans, cynics, philosophers, strategists, warriors, sorcerers, masters, slaves. Some hum this goat-song softly on their way; others bellow their lay from mountaintops. Is our manner exaggerated and grandiose?
What is our prize? The play of mind. Dramatis personae: thinking’s victims. We suffer the aegrum cogitationis. Its veil allows the changing of scenes.
Detrimentum
“Harm, reduction, defeat, overthrow.”
Bang your shield in defiance,
O warrior, tyrant’s thrall.
Despite his strategies,
shattered it will be!
They met, beak and claw,
A world stunned in awe.
They danced life’s drama,
Harmonious cacophony.
One lived, but one died
In defeat and victory,
Both so deluded
In battle’s glory.
And the kings looked on
To the stars of night,
Ever dreaming
Of cosmic fights.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2013 : 1:09:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
...At first I woul pass right out (literally black out) or become so physically uncomfortable that it wasn't realistic to continue etc etc... to the point that I had to really investigate what I was doing.
Hi Carson,
I've been watching this thread, and also, on my own, enjoying the inquiry questions you have offered.
On your current AYP practices, thanks for sharing the details above. That helps me understand where your have come in your process.
On another note: about that arm and skateboarding: Are you using or planning to use elbow pads for protection? I'm very safety oriented when it comes to recreation, and I've never broken a bone. Sorry if I'm over-involved here
Be |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2013 : 2:29:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Your answer to your questions was exactly what I thought when I read your post.
quote:
Has anybody else had to go through this phase?
Absolutely, yes. When I do formal practices, the I sense is strengthened. Just to sit and observe is the best practice for me. I might do Om chanting if inspired to, but just for the love of the Om sound, not as a practice. Why do formal practices sometimes strengthen the I? Because structured practices are a subtle doing, and its hard to avoid them containing an intent and sense of doership. In just sitting still, which is no practice at all, even the doer comes undone.
The Self, in its aspect of formless awareness, has no agenda, no motivation, no goal, no desired outcome in mind. It illumines ignorance and enlightenment equally, regarding expressions of hatred and malevolence with the same gaze that regards love and kindness. It's altogether beyond these opposites.
To simply sit still and observe (when you have cultivated enough witness consciousness) is the most powerful practice for ego-undoing. Because the ego is always trying to get somewhere, do something, achieve something.
The Self doesn't share this nature. It's absolutely fine with whatever appearances pass through it. It's just like the empty space in a room, the space isn't affected by what happens within it. The space doesn't say "No, I want to see good things in the space" or "Oh yes I like this!". It's free from such preferences, content with what is.
Just sitting, and observing, we let go of that identification of trying to get somewhere or do something, and we ourselves become like the empty space in the room, content with whatever appearance may arise.
What is happiness? Not a particular feeling surely. All feelings, all states, come and go. It is the nature of things that pleasure and pain chase one another. True happiness is not a move to a positive state, it's just the total absence of resistance to whatever is taking place, right now.
Do you feel me or am I ranting?
love
josh
Great post josh.
This discussion, however, raises something that has bothered me for years in yogic philosophy. Just doesn't feel right.
The Self may not care what the circumstances are, nor any quality of the moment. Technically true. However, that is because the Self sees that the true nature of consciousness, which is blissful and peaceful, and it sees it in every permutation of external life.
The fact is that there is no suffering from the highest perspective, because it is seen that all things have a purpose, and all things pass, and all things are play.
So the Self is simply wise, infinitely wise, because it sees the true nature of existence.
And yet the Self does want. But not in the way the ego wants. The Self emanates desires, sakti, but isn't concerned one way or another about the outcome of those desires.
But of course the Self desires, for how else would we be here? |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2013 : 5:05:42 PM
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Hey
Your question takes me beyond the areas where I really feel qualified to comment. Does the Self desire? I don't know. If I look into my being perhaps it will tell me an answer.
I can say that the Self IS 'What Is'. The ego, (meaning false identification as body/mind) is an activity in consciousness that often manifest as seeking something other than 'What Is' or resisting 'What Is'. But obviously, even the ego is part of What Is! Certainly I'm not one to speak negatively of desires. Without some sort of desire, we'd simply cease moving and die.
The desire that I refer to in a slightly negative sense is the simple act of resisting the moment, the contraction of attempting to pull away from or seek something other, than what is here, Now. The act of trying to subtly control experience in any way, via spiritual practice or otherwise, instead of just noticing that the Self, awareness, is already letting everything just be as it is. It's not even negative really, just something to become aware of, so one loses identification with the grasping and resisting. Upon noticing one's constant attempts to control, sometimes the grace of dis-identification may occur, and surrender then happens. Phew! Freedom from the need to maintain an illusion of control.
To find the right practice for us, we have to look to the intuition. Highly structured practices can be highly effective sometimes. At other times, the subtle-est and most technique-less practices become more appropriate and effective. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Jul 25 2013 5:07:56 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2013 : 11:51:17 AM
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Ahhh, OK I see where you're coming from. Yes, I agree. This is a good practice. We should un-do the ego in order to let the Self find us.
But I meant from a philosophical perspective, which accounts for the difference. The Self wants to play, to interact, to express. Siva and sakti in an eternal dance.
But the desire of the Self is much different from the desires of the ego. These desire emanate from the heart and are proposed without condition. They just are. But ultimately, we have a desire to live, here, now, otherwise why would we be here.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2013 : 4:21:23 PM
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Hi bewell
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
On another note: about that arm and skateboarding: Are you using or planning to use elbow pads for protection? I'm very safety oriented when it comes to recreation, and I've never broken a bone. Sorry if I'm over-involved here
Not over-involved at all. No, I'm not using safety gear and don't really have any plans to either. Not that I'm masochistic or anything, but they just feel so restrictive and unnatural while in action. In this case I fell from about 10-12 feet up into a one-handed handstand position so elbow pads/wrist guards/helmet etc wouldn't have made much difference... gravity works. I've broken more bones then I care to count, so it's kinda par for the course over here.
My wife commented today that I have a bit of a pattern here. Engage in some sort of extreme activity, pushing the limits for as long as possible (usually about a couple of weeks) before I hurt myself and have to take anywhere between a week and a couple months off to heal. Self pacing can really be applied to anything and I'm truly terrible at it in nearly all ways.
Love,
Carson |
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"I want to be better/more"
