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k123
118 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 07:35:53 AM
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All
Recently I have been thinking about emotional development and awakening and the balance and relationship between them. By development, I mean coming to a peace and not being driven by anger, fear and other of the more difficult parts of being human.
I have had times of seeing clearly that there is no I recently, but I also know that seeing that there is no I is not necessarily proof against personal problems, anger etc.
It has been discussed here a few times and I am really interested in how it plays out in others' lives. For example, some (I don't mean in this forum) claim to have had huge awakenings, where lots of problems melt away, due to the presence of love and the deep knowing that there is no self to protect any more. Others, like myself, have been looking at how we interact with life for a long time and trying to mature emotionally with things like The Work, the 12 steps, The Presence Process etc. In other words, getting down and dirty with the juicier, messier aspects of being a human being. I personally have find this really valuable, albeit difficult at times.
For my own part, I have only recently been able to see the lack of a me from time to time, but I have become well aware of my own personal triggers and defenses over the years. I can mostly not act on them now and defend myself a lot less. There is a lot more acceptance in my life too.
I am intrigued by this balance and how others experience this.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 08:30:47 AM
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Hi K123,
You seem to have a very profound understanding. For me, there is no difference between silence and dropping things like anger. Whenever I unconsciously react (feeling anger), I realize that I have emotional energy tied up around some issue. As I face, accept and let go of the issue, the energy is released and clarity (or silence) grows. I find that if I have really let go of the issue, I never have a similar anger reaction (there is just silence).
Has it been like that for you?
Best wishes, Jeff |
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k123
118 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 09:00:34 AM
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Hello Jeff
No, it has not been the same for me. When I feel and accept the feeling around a particular situation it does lessen it, and with understanding I am able not to react so much, but so far for me the strongest and most entrenched emotions and patterns seem to return.
Sometimes it feels like a spiral, things come back around, but there is a different perspective and they have lessened. Like anyone else I have particular triggers and those seem quite deeply rooted.
I like your description of the energy being released and silence growing. I have a degree of inner silence, but in that, there is a lot of energy and strong feelings still, which I sometimes get caught up in. Especially if I overload!! |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 11:31:15 AM
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Hi K123,
If it is only lessoning (and not removing), I find that often means there is an underlying fear/issue to the one you are dealing with. As an example, if someone gets angry at a comment directed to them, it often means that at a deeper level that they may not like them self (or feel loved). The Ego is really just a big autopilot defense system and anger is an automated response.
On energy being released and silence growing... All insecurities/fears/issues are kind of like energy "dams" in the flowing river of you. As we let them go, the river flow more freely, but that does not mean that the river can also spill over the bank when it hits a dam. Silence (or stillness) is floating in the middle of the river.
If you are feeling energy overload from your standard practices, maybe try being "intensely aware" as an addition. If you feel anger or irritation coming on... Try to just ask your, "K123 - are you here?" and then respond back. If you do that, you may find your self laughing at yourself rather than getting mad.
Best, Jeff
p.s. The Ego is not good at laughing at itself.  |
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k123
118 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 1:29:35 PM
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Thanks Jeff,
I like the image of an autopilot defence system.
I will try being intensely aware and keep on with my practices. I understand that the strong feelings are there for a reason, mainly protective, but I also think it will take a while before they disappear altogether, if ever. I don't come across as an angry person, except maybe irritable sometimes to my husband  , but I think we all have our varying personalities and the strong feelings are a part of that for me it seems.
I have a lot more acceptance of things as they are than before, and my aim is to continue growing. There is now a space where there was a need to react.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2013 : 9:58:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by k123
Others, like myself, have been looking at how we interact with life for a long time and trying to mature emotionally with things like The Work, the 12 steps, The Presence Process etc. In other words, getting down and dirty with the juicier, messier aspects of being a human being. I personally have find this really valuable, albeit difficult at times.
For my own part, I have only recently been able to see the lack of a me from time to time, but I have become well aware of my own personal triggers and defenses over the years. I can mostly not act on them now and defend myself a lot less. There is a lot more acceptance in my life too.
Dear K,
The above could be my words Thanks so much for sharing in your totally beautiful and honest way. These days, there has been a sense of space here, that seems to grow as I clearly see the stories that hold emotional triggers in place. And under every story, there is a belief (for example, so-and-so should behave in such-and-such way). Simply becoming aware of the belief does an incredible thing - I become disidentified from it. It is no longer part of my make-up or who my mind thinks I am. The belief and associated story may still pop up, but it is just scenery once it has been looked at. The resulting "clearing of the clutter" is akin to what a pathological hoarder must feel like once the healing begins and clean-up reveals forgotten parts of the house/space that were previously covered in junk.
Like you say, the more deeply held the beliefs and stories, the more challenging it is to see them for what they are. I have come to see clearly that it is *never* about someone else, but *always* about my projection of them, and the ensuing war in my mind about what is versus what should be. However, the increasing "space" makes it easier to cut through all the stories the mind spins.. This is coming true here not just for emotional reactions, but to everything, including practices, experiences, and overload.
Whereas in the past, there was always an urgency to get somewhere with practices, I am finally at rest, and thoroughly and immensely enjoying this process..
Love,
kami |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 12:00:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by k123
It has been discussed here a few times and I am really interested in how it plays out in others' lives. For example, some (I don't mean in this forum) claim to have had huge awakenings, where lots of problems melt away, due to the presence of love and the deep knowing that there is no self to protect any more. Others, like myself, have been looking at how we interact with life for a long time and trying to mature emotionally with things like The Work, the 12 steps, The Presence Process etc. In other words, getting down and dirty with the juicier, messier aspects of being a human being. I personally have find this really valuable, albeit difficult at times.
Please put me in the second group with you...that is, the ones who are still working through the miraculous paradox of being an individual and having character traits, idiosyncrasies, and uniqueness--all the while being part of the whole.
And if I ever claim to be a member of the first group (those who have realized there is "no self" to protect), please hunt me down and bring a very, very large bucket of cold, cold water to splash into my "no-self" face. And then, please kick me in the testicles, so I will realize that there is indeed a self to protect. I know you are up to the task, k123. It will be greatly appreciated.
In the meantime, I'll keep hanging out with fellow recovering addicts and the rest of our beloved scoundrels.
Thanks for this refreshing and real post, k123.  |
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apatride
New Caledonia
94 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 12:10:43 AM
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Laughing out loud at the "kick-me-in-the-testicles" instructions from Boddhi Tree
I can't help but thinking that a constant resorbation in the whole & dissolution of the self is a regression. Individual self-conscience has emerged from the whole Great Consciousness, that is not to go backwards.
But I admit this is only theory and intellect speaking. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 03:17:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by k123
It has been discussed here a few times and I am really interested in how it plays out in others' lives. For example, some (I don't mean in this forum) claim to have had huge awakenings, where lots of problems melt away, due to the presence of love and the deep knowing that there is no self to protect any more. Others, like myself, have been looking at how we interact with life for a long time and trying to mature emotionally with things like The Work, the 12 steps, The Presence Process etc. In other words, getting down and dirty with the juicier, messier aspects of being a human being. I personally have find this really valuable, albeit difficult at times.
Please put me in the second group with you...that is, the ones who are still working through the miraculous paradox of being an individual and having character traits, idiosyncrasies, and uniqueness--all the while being part of the whole.
And if I ever claim to be a member of the first group (those who have realized there is "no self" to protect), please hunt me down and bring a very, very large bucket of cold, cold water to splash into my "no-self" face. And then, please kick me in the testicles, so I will realize that there is indeed a self to protect. I know you are up to the task, k123. It will be greatly appreciated.
In the meantime, I'll keep hanging out with fellow recovering addicts and the rest of our beloved scoundrels.
Thanks for this refreshing and real post, k123.
The world always seems to do the testicle kicking with incredible accuracy if you forget |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 03:31:46 AM
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quote:
And if I ever claim to be a member of the first group (those who have realized there is "no self" to protect), please hunt me down and bring a very, very large bucket of cold, cold water to splash into my "no-self" face. And then, please kick me in the testicles, so I will realize that there is indeed a self to protect. I know you are up to the task, k123. It will be greatly appreciated.
In the meantime, I'll keep hanging out with fellow recovering addicts and the rest of our beloved scoundrels.
those who constantly keep on prolaiming loud that there is no self to protect seeem 99% of the time in non relatioanal enquiry...this is frankly what i feel about 99% of Liberation Unleashed..
the remaining 1 % who realized this truth directly, they are silent, not proclaiming any achievement and are very ordianary persons living a very ordiany life,taking good care of their self while knowing that they are the Self
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Edited by - maheswari on Jan 15 2013 03:33:19 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 03:35:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by k123
Hello Jeff
No, it has not been the same for me. When I feel and accept the feeling around a particular situation it does lessen it, and with understanding I am able not to react so much, but so far for me the strongest and most entrenched emotions and patterns seem to return.
Sometimes it feels like a spiral, things come back around, but there is a different perspective and they have lessened. Like anyone else I have particular triggers and those seem quite deeply rooted.
I like your description of the energy being released and silence growing. I have a degree of inner silence, but in that, there is a lot of energy and strong feelings still, which I sometimes get caught up in. Especially if I overload!!
Now, those could be my words!
Question - is experiencing No Self, the same as abiding in inner silence? Is that the same as experiencing Unity /Oneness?
I get confused with the different appellations. The only time I have experience anything resembling something I could maybe call Oneness was in during an outpour of divine love and compassion where I loved everyone the same - not sure if this is it. Did not last long though.
Sey |
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k123
118 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 04:15:01 AM
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Thanks All
Kami, thank you for your reply. It is really good to know others are doing this and be able to talk about it. Do you mind if I ask whether you just inquire into the thoughts and beliefs, or do you use things like the Work etc? Also, I have noticed recently just how many of these beliefs are about myself, the more subtle ones that are more like a slight ever-present attitude towards myself, things like automatically feeling I am wrong in many situations. You know, the kind of early conditioning stuff. It is like layers on an onion!! But good to see and that allows that much needed space around the belief, which allows it to change.
Bodhi, hilarious! Refreshing too, I agree. However, I don't think I am up to the task. I might be able to manage the cold water in your no self face bit though!
apatride thanks
maheswari, yes, it can be incredibly annoying when people deny bits of themselves and life and proclaim no self. Especially when used to deny the body, brain and emotions!
Sey, that is a really interesting question for me. When I have seen no self, it has been very ordinary and not lasted long. It felt like a relief and a glimpse of peace, but the mind's structures seemed to spring back very easily. I imagine abiding generally in inner silence to be different. I have not experienced the ongoing outpouring of divine love, all my inner obstacles still seem to prevent that. There is a lot more love and more happiness in my life recently and of course, the outpouring is my aim, but I can get triggered into defending my heart quite easily still! I suppose the the two (seeing no self and outpouring) come together when the messier things have been seen, allowed and have lessened.
In the meantime, as karl says, the world seems to do the kicking and to know exactly where to kick!
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 10:00:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by k123
Kami, thank you for your reply. It is really good to know others are doing this and be able to talk about it. Do you mind if I ask whether you just inquire into the thoughts and beliefs, or do you use things like the Work etc?
K,
Don't mind at all
For me, the inquiry is becoming subtler and subtler. While it would take a consciously thought-out question, such as "Is this true?", and "Who would I be without this thought?" now it is a subtle and fuzzy *feeling* of the question, very much samyama style. And I'm noticing that the questions are not really separated - "is it true" and "who would I be.." turn into one bam! of spaciousness, as the original judgment/story/belief is suddenly let go of. And the inquiry comes up simultaneously with the emotion or trigger or whatever.. One thing that might have compounded this is the constant inquiry of "Who/what am I", which has also changed to just being with the pre-thought awareness and the very fuzzy, subtle feeling of "I". Like a doorway, it opens into vastness that I can't differentiate being inside, outside, or everywhere
quote:
Originally posted by k123
Also, I have noticed recently just how many of these beliefs are about myself, the more subtle ones that are more like a slight ever-present attitude towards myself, things like automatically feeling I am wrong in many situations. You know, the kind of early conditioning stuff. It is like layers on an onion!! But good to see and that allows that much needed space around the belief, which allows it to change.
Exactly my experience as well! Layers and layers on this onion! And pretty much every belief can be traced back to myself. This specific kind of seeing is only possible in the presence of the silent witness, of course - relational inquiry.
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Question - is experiencing No Self, the same as abiding in inner silence? Is that the same as experiencing Unity /Oneness?
Hi Sey,
In my limited experience, they are and yet, not the same thing. Inner silence is the rise of the silent witness, not necessarily a quiet mind (although the mind does quieten). No Self is the result of the witness turning back upon itself and seeing that there is literally, no "one" there - as in, loss of identification with the body/mind complex. Unity arises from seeing that not only am I not this, but nobody/nothing in existence is also not this, and all is only That. No Self and Unity can be seen simultaneously, in an instant, or in stages as we come to abide first in the witness and then what arises/evolves.
At least here, it has been a loop of going from identification to a big void of nothingness to opening to being love. And repeat Not really sure, but suspect that re-identification results from strong held beliefs/vasanas and openings from Grace - not my will.
Very grateful for all you beautiful people 
Love,
kami
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2013 : 4:14:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
The world always seems to do the testicle kicking with incredible accuracy if you forget
So true, Karl. The universe will create situations to keep us in check. So...based on Karl's wisdom, I will withdraw the request to be kicked in the balls. However, k123, please DO splash me with the bucket of cold water, because that just feels good, regardless of any self-imposed punitive directives on my part.  Yesterday, I jumped in the Gulf of Mexico, despite the slightly chilly temperature, and I realized there was NO self when the waves started pounding me. It was full-blown enlightenment. True story. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2013 : 01:56:44 AM
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quote:
In my limited experience, they are and yet, not the same thing. Inner silence is the rise of the silent witness, not necessarily a quiet mind (although the mind does quieten). No Self is the result of the witness turning back upon itself and seeing that there is literally, no "one" there - as in, loss of identification with the body/mind complex. Unity arises from seeing that not only am I not this, but nobody/nothing in existence is also not this, and all is only That.
very well said! |
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k123
118 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2013 : 2:51:09 PM
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Thanks kami
I like your explanation. It is interesting how each of us finds what works and how that develops, almost by itself. I try to stay aware of the silence and look to see whether the things that arise are who I am, or just scenery.
quote:
For me, the inquiry is becoming subtler and subtler. While it would take a consciously thought-out question, such as "Is this true?", and "Who would I be without this thought?" now it is a subtle and fuzzy *feeling* of the question, very much samyama style. And I'm noticing that the questions are not really separated - "is it true" and "who would I be.." turn into one bam! of spaciousness, as the original judgment/story/belief is suddenly let go of. And the inquiry comes up simultaneously with the emotion or trigger or whatever.. One thing that might have compounded this is the constant inquiry of "Who/what am I", which has also changed to just being with the pre-thought awareness and the very fuzzy, subtle feeling of "I". Like a doorway, it opens into vastness that I can't differentiate being inside, outside, or everywhere
When there are strong feelings or reactions, I try to open to them as much as possible, to welcome them with an open heart and then, often, I can see what lies underneath, the pain, or conditioning that causes the reaction. Often it is just a misguided attempt at self protection and somehow the acceptance lessens the tangle and allows it to subside. Also, it seems to allow more space around whatever is happening, and the realisation that it is not the truth. Sometimes I get impatient with those reactions and feelings, but then that can also be accepted along with other forms if resistance.... As long as I don't get too caught up in the situation and forget of course!
I would be really interested to hear how others approach this kind of thing. |
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