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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 06 2013 : 12:17:32 PM
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With the seeming increase in Kundalini and energy overload issues lately, I thought it might be helpful for some to start a thread discussing energy/light...
I have found that there exist four main "types" of energy. Each is more like a different frequency range (or spectrum), rather than a truly different form. Additionally, different paths/traditions focus on different types of energy. The four types consist of body energy, mind energy, cosmic/spiritual light and primordial light.
1. Body energy - In the early stages, body energy can often feel like warm (or cold) regions in the body. As perception deepens, it often feels like tingles or vibrations and one grows to notice movement (or flowing). As one gains significant control over body energy, health improves and they become more resistant to sickness.
2. Mind energy - In the early stages, one begins to notice chakras in the energy body. With practice, one can begin to "see" auras. As "clarity" grows, one begins to perceive astral levels/stuff.
3. Cosmic/Spiritual light - Beyond "mind", it can be felt in the (inner) heart, this is the light/energy of creation/existence. Jed Mckenna describes the early stages of this in his 3rd book when he begins to touch on "human adulthood". In some ancient texts, this stage is described as "building the body of light". As is grows, it is also sometimes called "oneness" with everything.
4. Primordial light - This is the "raw stuff". Outside of time & existence. Land of Buddhas. Being "one with God".
Thanks.
(edit - spelling error) |
Edited by - jeff on Jan 06 2013 12:38:35 PM |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 04:32:29 AM
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Hi Jeff,
I like this subject. But i'll be a spectator as i have no info of my own to add
the reason i'm interested in this: while in Tiru i experienced different type of energy in Shiva temple than the type of energy i experience next to Ramana shrine.
The presence in the shrine is beautiful, smooth and hugging...brings tears of gratitude everytime.
While the energy i experienced in Shiva temple is ( knock out) :D... Numbness in both arms... Could not raise them anymore, tingling ... and fire cooking my whole being from inside ... peace n joy were present too. felt so exhausted that I slept for two hours afterward.
The explanation i was given is because people go to temple to do personal requests and thus energy is heavy
i'm not convinced...it's just different type of energy than the one in shrine...was very strong on my being but beautiful in its own way.
so yea part of me is puzzled for all the different energies we feel from different paths . Hopefully along this thread discussion i find hints that interests me :D
Love.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 11:09:52 AM
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Hi Namath,
The type of energy that one experiences/feels is dependent both on what is present (or being sent) and also what is needed (or capable of receiving) at the moment. While I would agree with your "heavy" comment, the energy of a temple or shrine is also impacted by those who visit.
Also, the energies of all of the paths are the same, but where they start (or focus on) is different. As an example, Taoist paths tend to focus on body energies, while Hindu tend to focus on mind energies. At the level of "light" they are the same, but the different starting points lead to Dan Tiens vs. Chakras in energy discussions.
In the end, all energy is really just a refracted (or obscured view) of the pure stuff. Or as the Dzogchen teacher Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says...
"Working from the other way round, it is possible to influence the external energy, carrying out what are called "miracles." Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy, though which one obtains the capacity of power over external phenomena."
Love +
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 3:00:11 PM
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| thank you |
Edited by - Namath on Jan 08 2013 3:26:34 PM |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 3:36:38 PM
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Hi Jeff,
prior to AYP, I've dedicated quite some time to reading and pondering on this 'spectrum' in hopes of uncovering the 'why' of different practices, for the obvious reason of selecting those that maximize the chances of gaining some sensitivity to it, and therefore begin working with it.
That went on for a number of years, as regularly as time would permit, while also engaging in a few practices, with the majority of time focused to those that seemed to be the key for a beginner. The hope was that despite the genuine blind spots, ambiguities, and the finer points on cause and effect that seemed to be withheld either deliberately or as a cover for ignorance, by persistent application of the 'pieces' with faith, an entry-point would emerge. It would be a firm launching platform towards a self-directed journey, helped along with those 'higher' more ambiguous writings, teachings, and practices that surely need to be done even if at present yield nothing new, practical, demonstrably progressive, or insightful.
All of this was meant to come from a place of great mysticism, on the implicit promise that it does lead back to it "eventually" and "in good time" as long as one stays with the mystical, non-inquisitive, non-critical mind, that's surely so antagonistic to the practices. Of course, this is only for the privileged few who stick with it without asking questions or showing signs of impatience, again surely detrimental characteristics of the path as if the approach is the practice.
Collaborative endeavours can't at the same time pass for higher guidance: am I being taught the necessary steps up a long and charted path, or are we just exploring together? Does your slightly brighter lamp actually illuminate the path also taken by those who've really become 'mystical beacons?' Are we actually becoming more worthy of their direct guidance some time in this lifetime?
I still feel like I had the right elements, just in the wrong order and direction. I never settled (as if one can't be dedicated without settling), and so kept on reading while practicing. Eventually, the readings, ponderings, and personal experience led to the field of yoga. It took just one taste to find so much of what I've been about in it. This instantly removed all earlier stereotypes of what I thought yoga was about, for a big part due to its mainstream misrepresentation, and why I kept it under wraps for so long. Just thinking of the word was like an obsession during the honeymoon phase, a reaction I never anticipated.
To summarize that whole process, yes, there seems to be a connection between these different levels of subtle energy, but I have nothing to say about it from my direct experience to date, which in itself says something about both my matrix of obstructions or ripeness, but also more importantly of my previous approaches that were meant to be for beginners to get a grip on things, no matter how small.
There were very few notable physiological effects, such as sense of strength, but not greater energy with which to back it up. Greater willpower and mental coherence would be another, but again limited, and certainly with a delayed draining effect. There would be pulsing, tingling, sense of flow (body mechanics, not the prana flow I was after), and my sentiment eventually mirrored what Yogani said somewhere within the same context, "to what end?"
The spectrum is in some places dissected with highly symbolic language, but the theory or practical implications connecting one phase to another is mostly disappointing, superficial, or just omitted. In contrast, other places (Vijnanabhairava, and somewhat in Silburn's survey) described it in very good detail in translations that uphold the clarity of the terms as intended. It demonstrates that it is possible to talk about highly abstract things in terms that can be grasped, and possibly serve a purpose in practice, for those who have no direct notion of the spectrum.
Some self-styled practitioners have made that leap from one level of subtle energy into another, connecting one practice with one phenomenon, and associated ability, sensation, or state of being. An example is reverse breathing where the abdomen is moved in the opposite way than is ordinary with in and out breaths, while holding some variations of Sambhavi. The raw energy of ‘breath’ after being harvested starts to crystallize and is transmuted into something else, more refined, exposing a different function, with an innate intelligence previously missing. I've also put that principle in practice during meditation, but soon abandoned it after finding how much was already available in yoga, and especially here at AYP and ‘in live’ as opposed to some scattered anecdotes.
It won't be much of a surprise to say that I find the long sought-after entry point in the energy side of things is wisely approached in disciplines that employ the general formula which AYP has already refined as a system in itself, and it is nothing short of genius. I say this because my experience has illustrated first-hand what it’s like to have the philosophical or metaphysical principles, or even downright common sense, go at odds with my prior practice to the point of despair and trouble in daily life, while the practical aspects started to pass for mere playing with what can easily slide into or characterize idle micro-management and scenic indulgence. I also say it because it aligns and permeates everything else so well from a perspective that is almost too far ahead of its time.
Some disciplines claim you need ‘body energy’ to get to ‘mind energy’ to be able to proceed forth. I believe there is no way to know for sure yet until enough people verify it for themselves first hand, a principle which so far has proven unfounded. The other point I’d like to make is, even if say ‘body energy’ can be uncovered quickly through some very efficient means, that by itself will still not say much about the importance of such a method, unless it too is evaluated and put into perspective of whether it has some special significance in the overall formula. The same verification would also apply on the conversion of one form, say mind energy into body energy and finally into some desirable physiological result. This is identical to what the lessons propose in uncovering the map of the subtle body, as opposed to taking one or another ‘authority’s’ word for it.
That’s as far as my experience and reasoning go with uncovering any of the given energy sheaths, much less any meaningful relation between them at that.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 4:34:00 PM
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Hi AumNaturel,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I would agree that trying to define a "universal" entry point based on energy is very challenging. Additionally, for most, energy activity happens on an unconscious level rather than a conscious level. Making verification and "standard" energy body maps more challenging.
I am also not advocating "energy based" systems. Growth in energy/light power or awareness comes from increasing clarity (the "letting go" of fears and issues) in life. As an example, when one "drops anger", all of that energy the Ego uses is freed up to do more useful things.
Many of your sentiments about energy are found in Buddhism. Energy/Kundalini (or called Tummo) is not practiced until the practitioner has developed great clarity (or quiet/calm mind). With the unconscious mostly "quieted", Kundalini/Tummo becomes a very calm/conscious control process. Kundalini/overload problems come from too much energy without the necessary clarity.
But, there are also issues with not understanding our energy/light nature at the more advanced practitioner levels. Many (like J. McKenna - books 1 & 2) confuse quiet/calm mind of the local body-mind for "enlightenment". It wasn't until book 3 (many, many years later) that he started to begin to realize that there was more...
Best, Jeff
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2013 : 8:25:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
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Many (like J. McKenna - books 1 & 2) confuse quiet/calm mind of the local body-mind for "enlightenment". It wasn't until book 3 (many, many years later) that he started to begin to realize that there was more...
Perhaps I missed it, but where exactly in book 3 does Jed talk about energy and advanced practitioners? Would you please provide a reference?
What I took away from that excellent book was his transition from "nothing" to "everything" ("wisdom to love" in the words of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Rupert Spira) aka, nonduality. It had nothing to do with developing superpowers, manipulating others with one's energy or types of energy (scenery). But, I could definitely be wrong
Many thanks  |
Edited by - kami on Jan 08 2013 8:40:51 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2013 : 11:26:14 AM
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Hi Kami,
Great to hear from you.
I apologize, but I currently do not have access to book 3, but I think this quote from book 2 touches on the point well...
"Once unshackled from the life-sucking demands of ego, we clearly see the unformed creatures we had hitherto been, like children. Not children in the happy, lyrical sense, but in the abrasive, self-absorbed, discordant sense. What we consider bright and beautiful in children is the inherent nature of the fully developed human, of Human Adulthood. Our true state is one of playfulness, innocence, lack of guilt, unboundedness of spirit, robust health and inner light, a natural confidence and unerring sense of right, imperturbability, grace, a calm eye and easy good humor, balance, fgreedom from malice and pettiness, the absence of fear, the presence of largesse and a permeating sense of gratitude. Creativity. Connectedness. Correctness. This is the clear and rightful state of the human being. One must die of the flesh to be born of the spirit. One's life energy, formerly squandered by ego, can then be turned to the higher purposes and potentials of life in the magnificent amusement park of duality."
Tibetan Buddhists have a cool term for where Jed's early concept of enlightenment got "stuck". They call it the substrate consciousness. It is the "layer" where one has quieted (and seen) the mind, but not yet broken into the "light".
Finally, any book where one takes away the message of transitioning to "love" is a good book.
+
p.s. What do you (anyone) think Jed's statement of "One must die of the flesh to be born of the spirit" mean? Sound a little "mystical" to me...
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2013 : 12:08:31 PM
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Thanks
Too bad Jed isn't here to defend his book or his viewpoint (not that it would make one iota of difference to him, I suspect)
From book 3, into the introduction is this quote:
"Truly, I have attained nothing from total enlightenment" ~ Buddha
While I understand what you are trying to explain in terms of energetic movements/development, etc etc, I think it is a great disservice to oneself and to others to promote that enlightenment is necessarily associated with energetic fireworks or development of siddhis/superpowers. This kind of approach is misleading, and keeps one enchained to illusion.
Energy, light, etc are experienced by many on their path, at varying degrees. However, any wave (i.e., anything that is "experienced") is still only a wave, not the ocean itself.
From Jed's first book, one of the things that struck me was the Plato's cave allegory . Undoing the chains and walking about the cave does give one the sense of freedom, and access to different sights and experiences, but one is still in the cave. Transcending from one energy to a "higher" energy and succumbing to its appeal is fine, if that is what one is after. But it is important to know that the ability to feel energy, manipulate it, or acquiring siddhis does not make one enlightened.
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
"Once unshackled from the life-sucking demands of ego, we clearly see the unformed creatures we had hitherto been, like children. Not children in the happy, lyrical sense, but in the abrasive, self-absorbed, discordant sense. What we consider bright and beautiful in children is the inherent nature of the fully developed human, of Human Adulthood. Our true state is one of playfulness, innocence, lack of guilt, unboundedness of spirit, robust health and inner light, a natural confidence and unerring sense of right, imperturbability, grace, a calm eye and easy good humor, balance, fgreedom from malice and pettiness, the absence of fear, the presence of largesse and a permeating sense of gratitude. Creativity. Connectedness. Correctness. This is the clear and rightful state of the human being. One must die of the flesh to be born of the spirit. One's life energy, formerly squandered by ego, can then be turned to the higher purposes and potentials of life in the magnificent amusement park of duality."
The above from Jed makes total sense, but it is all a by-product of awakening. Neither the end-game, nor the goal.
One must die of the flesh to be born of the spirit - truly not the first time someone has said this
It is not mystical at all. To be dis-identified from the body-mind/ego and to know one's true identity is to "die" of the flesh. To know oneself to be nothing and everything simultaneously is to be "born" of the spirit.
Peace!
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2013 : 1:10:24 PM
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Hi Kami,
I apologize to Jed if I have in anyway implied anything that he would need to "defend". My point was not to disparage, but to point out the obvious transformation that Jed goes thru/perceives in his three books. It is obviously up to the reader, but I believe Jed's concept of the state of "enlightenment" is very different from book one to three. In book one, he declares "done" and says everyone else has it wrong, by book three he is describing a "new state" of human adulthood. Something has changed... Something is unfolding...
While I am not trying to defend the concept of beyond normal "abilities", I believe that you have taken the statement "Truly, I have attained nothing from total enlightenment" out of context. The important word of the statement is "I", because there is no I (or ego self) that attains enlightenment.
On special abilities, Buddha was very clear in many texts, here is an example...
The Buddha replied, "Kevatta, I do not teach the Law to monks in that way". The Buddha gave the same reply when the question was put to him the second and third time. After the third question, the Buddha replied that there were three kinds of supernormal levels:
1. The marvel of supernormal power to appear as many persons, to pass through walls, to fly through the air, walk on water. All these are physical actions the ordinary people cannot perform.
2. The supernormal power to read other people's minds.
3. The supernormal power to be able to guide people according to their mental development, for their own good, using suitable methods that fit these people.
He taught that a monk who displays the first two supernormal powers for their own sake in order to impress people, is no different from the performance of a shaman or a magician. The Buddha said that a monk who practices such worldly miracles is a source of shame, humiliation and disgust. This is because such actions may impress and win converts and followers, but they do not help them put an end to their suffering. The third kind of supernormal power which the Buddha calls "the miracle of instruction" helps people to get rid of suffering. This is the only supernormal power that is fit to be practiced and is encouraged and praised by the Buddha.
~ Kevatta Sutta"
Or in the words of Jesus...
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:21-22 KJV)
or
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1)
Peace & Love, Jeff
p.s. IMHO many misunderstand the deeper meaning of Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Most don't actually read the text (just synopses) in the broader context of Plato's Republic. The full section/chapter is really more about Socrates (and higher responsibility) than the description of the cave.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2013 : 9:20:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Kami,
I apologize to Jed if I have in anyway implied anything that he would need to "defend". My point was not to disparage, but to point out the obvious transformation that Jed goes thru/perceives in his three books. It is obviously up to the reader, but I believe Jed's concept of the state of "enlightenment" is very different from book one to three. In book one, he declares "done" and says everyone else has it wrong, by book three he is describing a "new state" of human adulthood. Something has changed... Something is unfolding...
While I am not trying to defend the concept of beyond normal "abilities", I believe that you have taken the statement "Truly, I have attained nothing from total enlightenment" out of context. The important word of the statement is "I", because there is no I (or ego self) that attains enlightenment.
On special abilities, Buddha was very clear in many texts, here is an example...
The Buddha replied, "Kevatta, I do not teach the Law to monks in that way". The Buddha gave the same reply when the question was put to him the second and third time. After the third question, the Buddha replied that there were three kinds of supernormal levels:
1. The marvel of supernormal power to appear as many persons, to pass through walls, to fly through the air, walk on water. All these are physical actions the ordinary people cannot perform.
2. The supernormal power to read other people's minds.
3. The supernormal power to be able to guide people according to their mental development, for their own good, using suitable methods that fit these people.
He taught that a monk who displays the first two supernormal powers for their own sake in order to impress people, is no different from the performance of a shaman or a magician. The Buddha said that a monk who practices such worldly miracles is a source of shame, humiliation and disgust. This is because such actions may impress and win converts and followers, but they do not help them put an end to their suffering. The third kind of supernormal power which the Buddha calls "the miracle of instruction" helps people to get rid of suffering. This is the only supernormal power that is fit to be practiced and is encouraged and praised by the Buddha.
~ Kevatta Sutta"
Or in the words of Jesus...
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:21-22 KJV)
or
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1)
Peace & Love, Jeff
p.s. IMHO many misunderstand the deeper meaning of Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Most don't actually read the text (just synopses) in the broader context of Plato's Republic. The full section/chapter is really more about Socrates (and higher responsibility) than the description of the cave.
Hello Jeff,
Back in high school, I was on the debate team. Wish I had known the strategy of "over-quote and confuse the living daylights out of your opponent".
Anyways, thanks for all the excellent quotes.
Just to clarify: yes, energetic openings may be a part of the overall journey to awakening. There is no denying it; it certainly is a major part of AYP and other systems, but not in many others. In my own journey, I have and continue to experience energetic phenomena.
For long, I had wondered why vairagya (non-attachment) and viveka (discrimination) are called the two wings of jnana, knowledge. Coming to see that this is because it takes both to be able to (a) differentiate between what is being experienced and who the experiencer is, aka, the impermanent and permanent, and (b) let go of attachments - it is less about external attachments and more about attachments to our stories and false beliefs.
Spiritual practices and energetic openings eventually lead one to pratyahara, the inward turning of the senses, which in turn leads to experience of inner sounds/lights, etc. Very easy to become attached to, and fool ourselves into thinking that we have let go of sensory attachments. In reality, we've just replaced one with the other. In the grand scheme of things, it makes no difference; one is not better than the other when it comes to clinging. When one becomes enamored by such experiences, it is hard to see beyond it. Maya is not foolish.
It comes down to whether there is increasing joy and peace. Extraordinary ordinariness. No need to walk on water to see the miracle in every moment. The experience of Oneness is seeing that there never was more than One. Energy (whether four, or of countless types) is just another experience. Siddhis, if had, are just experiences. And all experiences are impermanent, therefore not "That".
Take care.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2013 : 08:15:02 AM
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Hi Kami,
I am sorry that you have found my posts "over quoted and confusing". I had the thought that the quotes directly related to your questions and comments. Also, I hadn't realized that we were "opponents". Next time, give me a little warning and I will try to work with your debate point/counter point argument structure.
My goal in this thread was not to discuss powers/abilities. My purpose was to discuss various forms of energy found in "existence". As originally stated, I thought an open discussion on the topic might be of use to some that had experienced (overload) issues. With each "type" of energy, other traditions (non-AYP) have strategies and techniques that may be helpful. A good example of this is Shanti's thread and the reason I gave it a "bump".
I agree with your point completely that it all comes "down to whether there is increasing joy and peace". Our only disagreement seems to be whether one believes in "miracles" or not. It seems that I believe in a world/oneness/emptiness/God with miracles and you do not.
Peace & Love, Jeff
p.s. if anyone is interested in further energy discussion, please feel free to post.
(edit - IPad spelling mistake) |
Edited by - jeff on Jan 10 2013 08:16:54 AM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2013 : 08:21:45 AM
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Hi Jeff,
Opponents as in "those with differing viewpoints presenting their arguments for/against a particular topic", not "opponents at war"
Whether I "believe" in miracles or not is irrelevant. Miracles are a daily phenomenon here, and the issue is two-fold - I suspect that is how it has always been, but only now are my eyes opening to them.. Also, at least in my experience, they are directly proportional to the degree of surrender and trust. At a deep, cellular level. Surrender of desire, outcome as well as the belief itself; 9 times out of 10, the universe gives me what I'm consciously asking for. Maybe not in the same form, but unfailingly and incredibly, the best outcome for the moment. The one time it doesn't, I'm glad for it soon enough. From a parking space to a big project, miracles galore. It's a new standard of living. Haven't asked to walk on water yet.. It's of no practical value or use here.. If I do develop the ability, I'll update (although it may not happen until there is someone here to report such things )
Maybe Jesus needed to demonstrate siddhis to get people to see there was more, that we are all sons and daughters of God. Happily, I have no such pressures!!
My best to you on your path.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2013 : 09:55:59 AM
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Hi Kami,
Thank you for your beautiful words.
Much love and best wishes,
Jeff |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 9:59:04 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the topic.
I'd like to get a better understanding of the 3rd and 4th types of energy/light, and also the nature of the refinement of energy/light as it progresses from Body Energy through to Primordial Light.
1. With regard to the 4th type, Primordial Light, is that multidimensional? Beyond linear time and local space? Where all other dimensions can be accessed?
2. Could you elaborate on the main differences between the 3rd type Cosmic/Spiritual Light and the 4th type Primordial Light?
3. I'm thinking there is obviously a progression here, from Body Energy to Primordial Light. Is it a progression of frequency?
4. What exactly is the light body?
I've got more questions
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 23 2013 12:23:33 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 11:31:56 AM
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Hi Parvati,
Happy to discuss....
The 4th type is beyond/outside what we would call "reality". "Light" (or the 3rd type) is also sometimes called consciousness and could be described as the "reflection" of the 4th. "Other" dimensions can be accessed with 2nd or mind energy. The main difference is the mind "sees", while the 3rd "is" or "knows". Or, At the second, one can "see" a "divine being". While, At the third, one can merge or share presence.
Rather than a progression, it is a little more like an iterative refinement. Or a "finer" understanding.
In classic terms, the "light body" is used by Buddha's who have gone beyond "existence" as a vehicle to communicate and help beings. But, as it is "built" (or obstructions are released), it is the ongoing integration of/into existence.
Best, Jeff |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 2:05:00 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the explanation.
Because of extreme sensitivity to everything, I have learned to be careful about what I expose myself to. Whatever I do, I need to proceed slowly and spend as much time as possible in nature. And to only involve myself in pursuits I have a knowing are suitable for me.
I thought I was taking the necessary precautions when I experienced energy overload for the past 3 years and finally finally have a bit of relief now. It was a spontaneous activation; I wasn't consciously doing anything to precipitate it. Wondering how you would interpret spontaneous activation and how it relates to the 4 types of energy/light.
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 23 2013 6:38:19 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 6:29:49 PM
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Hi Parvati,
Kundalini is the movement of energy on a subconscious (or higher self) level. As clarity increases, the subconscious mind is faced and "bought into" the conscious mind. One usually begins to notice Kundalini energy around a major event that effects the subconscious. An obstruction/issue/fear is faced and the energy shift is felt. Even though one is not conscious of it, you can be dealing with issues at a subconscious level which creates the K problems.
Most K problems continue when the conscious mind struggles against the subconscious issues. An example would be consciously thinking everything is great, while deep down subconsciously being terrified that you will never be loved. Issues like that are hard to face and deal with.
Best regards, Jeff |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 7:01:06 PM
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Hi Jeff,
If one consciously stops struggling it helps? That was true in my case. But how can the deep down subconscious issues be resolved without working on them? For me just surrendering to the process was what gave me control over the energy fluctuations. They started to even out. Such a paradox!
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 7:20:14 PM
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Hi Pavariti,
Yes, to stop struggling and fighting with the process is the way to go.
Regarding deep down issues... While i would recommend things like "The Work" and a "Course in Miracles", the amazing thing about life is that it constantly gives us "real life" opportunities to resolve and deal with our issues. Things like holding your newborn child can make most ego issues seem very silly and meaningless.
Peace, Jeff |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2013 : 2:34:28 PM
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Namaste All,
It's such a synchronicity that I read this thread earlier this morning, as I had been musing about the differentiations in what we experience as energy, just last night. The pondering began by the prompting of an idea, that being, EVERYTHING IS ENERGY. Well, at least everything we perceive of as being existent, surely has the appearance of being some strata of variation of energy, of one frequency of vibration or another. In my own small experience, these manifestations of energy are echoes and reflections of the same source, all united/interlinked intricately within the whole of the Unified Field of Being (AKA the Godhead). Yet, the deeper I look, the more they seem to be the very same, symmetrical force. It's as if they are membranes of subtle division, without any true separation save within the mind of the perceiver of their seeming variations and differentiated forms of being.
And Jeff, I sincerely do agree with much of your opening statement. Rock on, my friend! I would humbly add that if we launch into specificity, we might further divide the four bands of energy divisions, into an infinite cluster of groups or bundles of manifesting energy frequencies. Regardless of numeric definitions, however, I have found within my own sadhana and search for truth, that these bundles exist as a spectrum of multiples of levels or alternate degrees, of one Indivisible energy. One Spirit, many expressions flowing within an endlessly changing, stream of all-pervasive energy.
It is apparently filtered throughout all of the 7 planes ascending above the physical (or in by some systems of thought, 8 planes) of consciousness, that the Atmic self witnesses as separate layers of finite distinction. It passes throughout this material realm and can be seen in traces and within the flowing nature of organic things. Paradoxically, the energy is always the same, despite it's appearance or unique frequency of vibration. Thus, one of the greatest of illusions is the duality of such fracturing of the singularity of Brahman unbound. This notion kinda reminds me of a vision I once had while in deep meditation.
I envisioned a monkey seated in a contemplative posture, fixedly observing an onion, curiously and proddingly so. Obviously the monkey was myself, my mind and my quest for Gnosis. Or in the broader sense, the monkey is symbolic of humanity itself, as it evolves from the dust of matter, to question it's own existential paradigm. The object of the monkey was the Cosmic Onion it held in it's palm. Upon this it directed it's intense focus, as it contemplated the intriguing riddle it held forth. Said "Cosmic Onion" is also clearly a symbol and as such, is an ideological interpretation and reflection of universal reality of the Creator, limitlessly performing it's own Lila, swaying to the rhythm of the Holy Dance. Tis the eternal beating of the Sacred Heart, within all breasts, everywhere! 
Allegorically, the onion has an exterior surface and a central core, divided by concentric membranes. Yet, it is one phenomenon with many bands of division inerrant within it's dimensional, clearly formed structure. Even so, it is Atmic in nature and not separate from the monkey which gazes upon it's image (All is One). And when the curious monkey begins to peel away the exterior layers and incrementally journey to the central core of the onion, he/she arrives at that point where there is nothing tangible left at the very epicenter. At the very heart of the onion there is a void of form... a mystery It logically began as an archetypal idea on the causal plane, before it materialized, so just where is it to be found? What is it's source? Where does the energy emerge from and how does the monkey witness it's emergence, when it is habitually using it's external sense organs of perception? And this is reflected by it's mental urge to quantify and conceptualize it's own perceived experiences into a system of meaningful ideas. As most monkeys routinely do, eh?
But does actually observe it as it truly is? How does the monkey comprehend the infinite with finite reasoning? How can the monkey understand eternity from a sequential standpoint? How does the monkey grasp the significance of the Absolute, from a relative vantage point? And in direct regard to this fine thread, how does the monkey find the source of the energy that creates the onion,the monkey and the friction which divides them from one another? I feel that the monkey must by virtue of it's own intuition, cross into immersion within the Cosmic Onion, to fully realize it's core nature, as undifferentiated energy.
In other words, the very beginnings of the concentric rings cannot be found as long as the monkey is separate from the object of it's attention. For as that deepest core is wholly ineffable to the self which exists within the polarity of existential duality. Unity is needed to experience the intangible aspect of the onion. It exists as an idea and a principle, surely, but it cannot be found by critical analysis or the keenest observation.
Why so? Perhaps it is because the need to discover the center is merely another membrane of division within the Cosmic Onion itself. For in essence, the monkey is the true center of the onion, all along. Only when it completely releases the desire to experience subjective observations about it's own existence, can it freely merge with the Divine intent which creates the whole cycle of manifest experience, in the first place. And I'd add that the "first place" is and always was right here & now. This is the eternal moment and it is not locked within the time-space-continuum. Here, all things exist in the present and happen simultaneously. No past, no future, just the now. So very simple and so difficult for us to surrender to. 
I have come to believe that this is where the I-AM principle begins it's expansion into dimensionality and an infinite multiplicity of spontaneous expressions, thus creating the myriad layers of manifestation which it freely and naturally expresses. So, if one sees these kinds of energy as membranes of division or frequencies of consciousness, it makes perfect sense that here is one Omni-energy creating them all out of the insubstanciality of itself (the unformed Brahman). This series of ideas led my mind through some conceptual gymnastics, for some duration of sequential time... before my thoughts became wholly stilled. In such a mental degree of stillness and internal quietude, spiritual impressions began to form (themselves energy patterns blooming before my mind's eye). They were assuredly thought-forms which linked the varied stages and levels of conscious-awareness together seamlessly and cohesively, into a vast fabric of interconnection.
These thought-forms where much like interlocking lines of a Sacred Geometry, itself inerrant within all of the variegation of the dichotomous manifestation of ideas or perhaps, the pattern of ascending & descending planes of reality? All of it is undeniably composed of the very same quintessential energy field, although the membranes divide this universal overflowing force into the stages and degrees of existential being. And from some of my lessons, I have learned that the light which we seek, is the form blooming as all variations of energies, efficiently expanding it's primordial degree of manifestation throughout all levels and planes of manifestation. It is mysteriously born of the oscillations generated by the vibration of the Sacred Word. The heat of this vibratory field manifest itself as light. Out of the undifferentiated Clear Light of the Void, issued forth the illusion of duality. There became darkness and light, each aspect of the One, balancing their polarities throughout all of the spectrum and degrees of manifest creation. 
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God." And this one also, but of course. "And the God said, let there be light and there was light"
No human being can know just why the transcendent Brahman split itself into the diversity of multiplicity. How the unformed became the formed. How Brahman shifted into Ishvara and birthed all of the differentiation between that which Ishvara creates and the truth that Ishvara remains one with the undifferentiated Brahman, despite the appearances of this and that. But we have learned that the Supreme Being spoke the Sacred Word and so too, began the universal dreamscape experienced through the life of all that lives. One energy coursing throughout all the existential planes of being. In it's unified state, it is wholly transcendent and in it's expressions of diversity, it sees through our eyes and feels through our hearts.
I wouldn't necessarily speculate that when we shift our conscious-awareness to the state in which we realize that we are this same energy, that we also experience the emptiness which precedes the fullness... but I am surely tempted to. Hehehe. 
For when I go into what I call "The Eclipsing", I wholly loose myself. Not as within deep sleep states, for I am more awake than any ordinary degree of waking consciousness. Yet, I am nothing at all. I am no thing which can be separated from all else that exists. Sort of like the emptiness within the fullness of the whole totality. This brings whatever I really truly am, to a challenging point of awareness. For as I approach the Inner Light of the indwelling Spirit, I cross into a kind of vortex. I merge through direct intention, into a space which has no identity as we think of identity, no form or any substance at all. Silence...
And when I fuse my attention upon the Light... all darkness dissipates and the effulgence is no longer defined by the absence of effulgence. So, the Light itself also disappears, along with my Atmic body, myself as a witness to the unification in full bloom. I call this phase a "Whiteout Experience" and I suspect many other folks here, do too, each with their own preferred terminology.
This, of course, stops the mind and dissolves the ego completely. Impressions are left just prior to and directly after the eclipsing. These impressions translate through my limited intelligence as aspects or attributes of the emptiness of the Divine. within the matrix of Brahman, there is no motion or vibratory pulsation. Such a Void is no-thing/not a thing, that we can know as an object with our subjective observation, as sentient beings. But the stillness is sheer perfection.
It is Nirvana and from my windowsill, it appears most Heavenly. It is That which creates all the myriad forms of energy and what directly initiates Quantum Fluctuations. It is beyond (or perhaps it is really within?) any formation of dualistic membranes, strings or degrees of division of frequency of vibration. I has not yet expressed the I AM principle, nor will it ever. Perhaps this is why Gautama Buddha emphasized the transcendental Void of the Anatman?
I believe that as contradictory as it seems, it is only when Brahman dreams of becoming Ishvara, that we become existent with said dreamscape. We are the dream and the dreamer, simultaneously. All is One and we are all the same singularity of indivisible energy, the same I AM peeking out from inside of the multitude of bubbles of existential possibility. Well... in a proverbial nutshell. Most of this stuff cannot be encapsulated in linguist terms, so it takes an enormous leap of faith, direct symbiosis and a strong focus of deeper concentration, to shift into the bloom of an exponentially expanded degree of perceptual reality.
I have come to understand that takes a good deal of practice and an equal amount of unlearning the mirage of our mortal limitations. We are called to remember where we come from and who we truly are. I feel that we are collectively awakening to this present moment, so that we might touch the Sacred Field of Divinity. To boldly touch the face of God, only to find that the face of God is also our own face (and all other faces). And we are surely destined to each see beyond the trickery of Maya, develop the intention to pierce through the bubble... and so allow the membrane between the inside and the outside vanish permanently (leaving naught but the emptiness within merging with the emptiness without).
Thank you all for reading my abstract ramblings. I truly honor you all and wish you much illumination, peace and spiritual harmony.
Tat Tvam Asi |
Edited by - Govinda on Jun 13 2013 03:16:42 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 12:15:04 PM
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Hi Govinda,
I would definitely agree that what I describe as the four main types of energy are ultimately the same. I would probably describe it increasing refinement. The deeper one goes in consciousness, the more pure (less maya obscuration), until one ultimately perceives the "raw stuff".
Also, your "eclipsing" with whiteout sounds very cool and interesting. But, I was somewhat confused by your description. Is the whiteout "ceasing", with no presence or awareness of anything? Completely void? Or, you next talk about nirvana, is it a divinely blissful state?
Finally, does this happen in deep mediation?
Thanks, Jeff |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 3:33:40 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, the whiteout experience occurs when we enter into deep meditational unification with the "raw " light frequency. I personally feel extreme bliss right prior to the eclipsing and immediately post eclipse. While in unification mode, I shift into the white void... so, my ability to descern this from that is suspended.
As Sci Aurobindo describes from his own Samadhi, when he merged with the Supreme state or Nirvana, he was unable to locate any self at all. I share his observation. Awareness does persist but without knowledge of duality. I call this level of consciousness, the Zero-self. I feel that this is what Lord Buddha meant by Anatman.
A point when one is fused to the Indivisible, so one lacks any subtle subjective perspective. And yet... awareness of Being continues to seat itself in the ineffible unity of the Insubstancial. If that makes any modecum of sense. |
Edited by - Govinda on Jun 13 2013 4:36:39 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 4:58:20 PM
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Hi Govinda,
Thanks for your response. At what you call consciousness (or Zero-self), are able to percieve normal things in the world (or just meditation)? Also, are you able to "expand" your perspective in consciousness and "be with" something or someone else?
Best wishes, Jeff |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 11:09:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Govinda,
Thanks for your response. At what you call consciousness (or Zero-self), are able to percieve normal things in the world (or just meditation)?
Well in my experience, when one willingly and intentionally enters into the eclipsing phase, one is unaware of any subtle membrane of duality, whatsoever. Certainly not unconscious but surely, it's an aspect of a supra-conscious degree of attention. Likewise, one is not aware that one is meditating either, for one is not conscious of being any self which has the faculty of observation about anything.
How does this differ from deep sleep states? Deep sleep is more like the inky darkness of the black void and the "whiteout experience" is more like the blindingly effulgent undifferentiated expanse of the white void. I suppose the main differences between these two void states, is that everyone experiences the black void in deep sleep. Heck, even criminals and murderers can easily visit the dark void. The white void is only achieved through the portal of the Ajna and is facilitated by the Atmic expansion and full bloom of the Sahasrara. In such a fulcrum of effulgence, individual perception is only possible just prior to and immediately following the post-eclipsing phase.
Of course, we can never put into human words such paramount levels of being. But we can taste the Amitra of the Infinite, upon initially merging and then, after unmerging. The Atmic awareness is wholly conscious and one is keenly aware of being naught but the source of all Light and the eternal voice which speaks the sonic AUM vibration.
It is unarguably a peak experience and I am in no way suggesting it is akin to Sahaja Samadhi or true "enlightenment", for the immersion is only temporary and more of an epiphany of sorts. It is an ecstatic trance state which knows no separation betwixt any subject and object.
I really believe that when Lord Buddha spoke of Anatman, he meant that only when one is completely willing to sacrifice even oneself, in one's spiritual quest for liberation, can one freely enter into Nirvana. And it is not unreasonable to assume that the the degree of self consciousness which blooms, is not the same normal pattern of self-hood. It is a pause in the ordinary subjectivity of the individual witness of ones view of reality. This is why I call such a state, Zero-self. Not an absence of existence or awareness... it is an absence of all limitations created by the isolating separation of mortal self-hood. Much of this is banter is semantics, admittedly.
Neither is it Moksha (true liberation from illusion). But it does have significant value to the Sadhaka, in the sense that it awakens an urgency within the heart and mind of the seeker, to fully transform to the degree that one remains aware of this Ineffable state, even when interacting with the world and the universe which we inhabit.
In my own small understanding, it has been a huge inspiration and I have come to understand that we are all THAT. We are in our truest nature, no-thing (not a thing as we commonly recognize things). Things are parts of the whole, right? Zero-self is the absence of partition. So, I do not allow the seeming differences I perceive between this and that, lock my mind into believing in the mirages I had previously thought was the totality of my reality. A boundary-less temple without a ceiling or walls.
quote:
Also, are you able to "expand" your perspective in consciousness and "be with" something or someone else?
Best wishes, Jeff
Honestly Jeff, I personally feel that without gradual integration, some modicum of grounding the of transcendental Spirit and an attention towards an intricate balancing of our personal dreamscapes with the higher realms we encounter through ascension... such whiteouts are only marginally more beneficial than deep sleep states or for that matter, even blacking out (for whatever reason).
Shifting attention into the vacuum of the Clear Light of The Void is a most startling and overwhelming experience! It shakes the very foundation of one's cherished beliefs in even having a self which is not a passing fantasy, a lie based on learned behavior and mental projections.
While I would stop short of calling it Nirvikalpa Samadhi... in light of Sri Ramana Maharshi's cosmology, there are many parallels. Master Ramana felt that only when one is ALWAYS united with the supreme state, one is merely taking a short break from the confines of ego-consciousness. Does not the truly wise soul apply direct intent to consciously change/grow/evolve and so, embark upon a new dimension of oneself?
Being drunken with God-intoxication is a blissful state, surely... but I feel we need to ground the ecstatic epiphany with steady integration and a gradual transformation in our understanding. So too, we are behooved to change our habitual behavior. Thus, when we consciously seek to see the Indivisible Light itself, shining blindingly upon all transient forms and gleaming beatifically within all manifestations of being, we are uniting Heaven and Earth.
OM Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya |
Edited by - Govinda on Jun 14 2013 01:29:57 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2013 : 08:35:08 AM
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Hi Govinda,
Thank you again for your detailed answers. They have been very helpful in defining the types of energy that you are describing. It sounds like you have had some truly beautiful experiences. I look forward to hearing more in the future.
Best wishes on your path. |
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Four main types of energy/light
