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AYPforum
351 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 07 2005 : 5:50:14 PM
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543 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:58pm
Subject: Evolution of souls nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this only
when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
philosophical discussion.
All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless superconscious
thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it, you
are made of it, hitler is made of it.
If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how come
one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other didnt?
What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that karma?
Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if it
is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born in
bad surroundings and another in good.
Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the other
in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer but
we could try to have some nice discussion.
Love,
Near
549 From: "Kathy" <nagoyasea@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:33am
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls nagoyasea
Offline
Send Email
Near,
This is only my humble opinion... It seems to me that the Creator
created all our souls as you say, but, I would say that the choices
we make in our lives (free will again) is what leads us to
accumulating karma. It seems that the Creator set up a universe of
natural laws, cosmic laws that affect every living thing the same
way. When we break the natural cosmic laws there are consequences.
We all make our choices, independent of our birth circumstance or
environment. That leads to the difference between a hitler and a
yogani.
Love,
Kathy
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this only
> when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> philosophical discussion.
>
> All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless superconscious
> thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it, you
> are made of it, hitler is made of it.
>
> If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how come
> one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
didnt?
> What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that karma?
> Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if
it
> is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born
in
> bad surroundings and another in good.
>
> Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the other
> in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
>
> I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer but
> we could try to have some nice discussion.
>
> Love,
> Near
552 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
Hi Kathy,
I have given myself this explanation many times but was not
satisfied completely. Let us say it is because of free will and we
reap what we sow. That means we accumulate karma bad/good. Then what
would have happened to hitler in his next lives? What is the
solution for him. He has accumulated so much of bad karma already
that his next lives would be even worse and hopeless to cancel the
effects of this bad karma. If his next lives were to be better, what
makes them to be better despite of bad karma? If they are worse then
whats the solution for him? More lives full of suffering as
disabled/poor etc...? After suffering all those lives he might
become good(?) and free himself after some time. What makes him good
again? (I am asking these questions to myself)
I heard from a practitioner that everything happens in a cycle of
lives. We start and end at the same point. Probably good people will
have smaller cycles while bad ones have longer cycles.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <nagoyasea@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Near,
>
> This is only my humble opinion... It seems to me that the Creator
> created all our souls as you say, but, I would say that the
choices
> we make in our lives (free will again) is what leads us to
> accumulating karma. It seems that the Creator set up a universe of
> natural laws, cosmic laws that affect every living thing the same
> way. When we break the natural cosmic laws there are consequences.
> We all make our choices, independent of our birth circumstance or
> environment. That leads to the difference between a hitler and a
> yogani.
>
> Love,
> Kathy
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this
only
> > when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> > philosophical discussion.
> >
> > All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless superconscious
> > thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it,
you
> > are made of it, hitler is made of it.
> >
> > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
come
> > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> didnt?
> > What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that
karma?
> > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if
> it
> > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born
> in
> > bad surroundings and another in good.
> >
> > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
other
> > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> >
> > I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer
but
> > we could try to have some nice discussion.
> >
> > Love,
> > Near
553 From: "Kathy" <nagoyasea@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls nagoyasea
Offline
Send Email
Near,
You have so many good questions. Again, I'm speaking only for myself
as I ramble on.
If I look at my current life as an example, I see time and time
again that when I have done something that was not compassionate, or
ignored someone who needed service, or if I was unkind or any
negative thing I did, that event comes back to me somehow and I
ended up living through the same feelings and experiences as did the
person I inflicted my anger or lack of compassion on. I learned what
it felt to have someone treat me the same way I treated them. But
this also goes for the good things too...
If our creator set up the universe for us to follow a series of
natural laws in this life, I wonder if the same consequences of
breaking those laws follow us into the next life if we did not learn
from our mistakes here in this one.
So for example, Hitler had no opportunity to experience what he
inflicted upon others before he died in this incarnation. He
committed suicide before that could happen.
Perhaps in his next life he will experience the same suffering (he
had caused others previously) at the hands of some cruel tyrant. If
the natural laws are in effect, he would not have a better life in
his next life, it would probably be a pretty miserable life!
Through his actions and experiences as he deals with these
consequences he will be faced with he may gain some realization,
some compassion during those trials. If he took some small steps in
acting in a positive way toward others he would start changing his
karma. I don't know that we have to suffer equally to what we have
done to others, but it seems that we must learn. Learn to live in
love, learn to be self-less, learn to serve...etc etc.
Kathy
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kathy,
>
> I have given myself this explanation many times but was not
> satisfied completely. Let us say it is because of free will and we
> reap what we sow. That means we accumulate karma bad/good. Then
what
> would have happened to hitler in his next lives? What is the
> solution for him. He has accumulated so much of bad karma already
> that his next lives would be even worse and hopeless to cancel the
> effects of this bad karma. If his next lives were to be better,
what
> makes them to be better despite of bad karma? If they are worse
then
> whats the solution for him? More lives full of suffering as
> disabled/poor etc...? After suffering all those lives he might
> become good(?) and free himself after some time. What makes him
good
> again? (I am asking these questions to myself)
>
> I heard from a practitioner that everything happens in a cycle of
> lives. We start and end at the same point. Probably good people
will
> have smaller cycles while bad ones have longer cycles.
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <nagoyasea@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Near,
> >
> > This is only my humble opinion... It seems to me that the
Creator
> > created all our souls as you say, but, I would say that the
> choices
> > we make in our lives (free will again) is what leads us to
> > accumulating karma. It seems that the Creator set up a universe
of
> > natural laws, cosmic laws that affect every living thing the
same
> > way. When we break the natural cosmic laws there are
consequences.
> > We all make our choices, independent of our birth circumstance
or
> > environment. That leads to the difference between a hitler and a
> > yogani.
> >
> > Love,
> > Kathy
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this
> only
> > > when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> > > philosophical discussion.
> > >
> > > All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless
superconscious
> > > thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it,
> you
> > > are made of it, hitler is made of it.
> > >
> > > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
> come
> > > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> > didnt?
> > > What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that
> karma?
> > > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because
if
> > it
> > > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one
born
> > in
> > > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > >
> > > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
> other
> > > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> > >
> > > I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer
> but
> > > we could try to have some nice discussion.
> > >
> > > Love,
> > > Near
550 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:39pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
> If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how come
> one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other didnt?
Near,
two different threads of responses to that.
On the first thread, we merely take the long, temporal view:
how do we know that Vivekanananda did not accumulate impurities?
How do we know that he did not do a major Hitler number on some planet
somewhere eons ago? And recovered in time, re-purified his soul, and
became what we saw during his life? And why should we expect that
Hitler
will not do the same in time?
On another thread, we leap straight for the nondual:
the impurities only exist in the world of relativity,
which is a play,a game, which must be taken seriously
only within that game. Both the 'purities' of
Vivekananda and the 'impurities' of Hitler seem
real from inside the game, but the
duality disappears when seen from the point of view
outside the game, which is also the
point of view from before it or after it.
I don't know if you've seen those pictures popularized
by the Hare Krishna-Movement (this group has a proper name---
I'm just using their 'street name' without
disrespect) in which Krishna (God, the Source), in the
clouds, as a puppeteer, is moving everything, everything
being on puppet-strings. In some of these pictures you can see
crimes being committed and Krishna is doing them. You can
also see virtuous deeds and spiritual acts, and it is
the same there; Krishna is 'doing' the saints, the sinners,
the criminal and also the victim, you name it. From another point
of view, Krishna is 'playing'
these roles.
In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna says 'I am the gambling of the
fraudulent; I am the goodness of the good'. He also says
'In a sage imbued with wisdom and humility, in a cow,
elephant, dog and dog-eater, the wise see the same self'.
So Vivekananda is Krishna playing 'pure'; Hitler is Krishna
playing 'impure'.
> Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if it
> is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born in
> bad surroundings and another in good.
> Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the other
> in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
In the light of nonduality, or even the long temporal view, are
these questions answered or do they remain?
I hope that has some meaning for you,
Best regards,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...> wrote:
>
>
> I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this only
> when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> philosophical discussion.
>
> All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless superconscious
> thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it, you
> are made of it, hitler is made of it.
>
> If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how come
> one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other didnt?
> What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that karma?
> Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if it
> is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born in
> bad surroundings and another in good.
>
> Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the other
> in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
>
> I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer but
> we could try to have some nice discussion.
>
> Love,
> Near
554 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:45pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
David,
Thanks for the wonderful explanations.
I agree with you that vivekananda might have also accumulated
impurites and hitler might become vivekananda one day too. What we
are seeing in vivekananda/hitler are just one point of time in the
timeless and superpowerful infinite soul.
Is all this a puppet play? May be. But I feel it is in our hands to
make or break our lives and it is we who suffer/enjoy the results.
Free will in my view is an important factor because without that
there is no motivation for being & doing good. If we keep doing bad
again and again after sometime may be we loose our free will and
will have to suffer to some lives full of suffering before which we
might be granted the chance to prove ourselves again. (Probably
thats the reason for people born blind, people who seem to suffer,
poor people and all the sufferings in the world). I feel this cycle
continues till we prove ourself.
But the important question is when and how will we prove ourself?
Will we ever? AYP says that we all will reach enlightenment one day
and that it is written on our genes. But what "for sure" changes a
hitler to become a vivekananda ultimately is hard to understand for
me. May be there is some puppet play by god which makes us finish
the cycle with the help of our free will.
And also i feel one soul will divide and can take birth as multiple
human beings. This day-by-day growing world population makes me feel
that way.
Love,
Near
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
come
> > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
didnt?
>
> Near,
>
> two different threads of responses to that.
>
> On the first thread, we merely take the long, temporal view:
> how do we know that Vivekanananda did not accumulate impurities?
> How do we know that he did not do a major Hitler number on some
planet
> somewhere eons ago? And recovered in time, re-purified his soul,
and
> became what we saw during his life? And why should we expect that
> Hitler
> will not do the same in time?
>
> On another thread, we leap straight for the nondual:
> the impurities only exist in the world of relativity,
> which is a play,a game, which must be taken seriously
> only within that game. Both the 'purities' of
> Vivekananda and the 'impurities' of Hitler seem
> real from inside the game, but the
> duality disappears when seen from the point of view
> outside the game, which is also the
> point of view from before it or after it.
>
> I don't know if you've seen those pictures popularized
> by the Hare Krishna-Movement (this group has a proper name---
> I'm just using their 'street name' without
> disrespect) in which Krishna (God, the Source), in the
> clouds, as a puppeteer, is moving everything, everything
> being on puppet-strings. In some of these pictures you can see
> crimes being committed and Krishna is doing them. You can
> also see virtuous deeds and spiritual acts, and it is
> the same there; Krishna is 'doing' the saints, the sinners,
> the criminal and also the victim, you name it. From another
point
> of view, Krishna is 'playing'
> these roles.
>
> In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna says 'I am the gambling of the
> fraudulent; I am the goodness of the good'. He also says
> 'In a sage imbued with wisdom and humility, in a cow,
> elephant, dog and dog-eater, the wise see the same self'.
>
> So Vivekananda is Krishna playing 'pure'; Hitler is Krishna
> playing 'impure'.
>
> > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if
it
> > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born
in
> > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
other
> > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
>
> In the light of nonduality, or even the long temporal view, are
> these questions answered or do they remain?
>
> I hope that has some meaning for you,
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this
only
> > when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> > philosophical discussion.
> >
> > All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless superconscious
> > thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it,
you
> > are made of it, hitler is made of it.
> >
> > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
come
> > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
didnt?
> > What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that
karma?
> > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because if
it
> > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one born
in
> > bad surroundings and another in good.
> >
> > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
other
> > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> >
> > I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer
but
> > we could try to have some nice discussion.
> >
> > Love,
> > Near
557 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
Thankyou Near.
> Is all this a puppet play? May be. But I feel it is in our hands
to
> make or break our lives and it is we who suffer/enjoy the results.
I think the puppet-play by Krishna is a wonderful metaphor. In its
non-seriousness, in its completeness, in its being something to
which nothing can be added, or nothing taken away....
I don't find it contradicting my sense of free will in any way. If
the pot on the stove starts to boil over, I'll take it off the
heat. But I am starting to know that that was Krishna taking the
pot off the stove. Nothing in me is free of Krishna though, and
never can be. If stuff is seen in this way, the duality can start
to melt, and a divine, humorous love can start to arise.
Everyone, everything, is the Self, the Beloved, the Divine
Lord, the Clown who plays the Same Old Game of Hide and Seek in
Form for aeons.
There is a time and place for every metaphor though, and for all of
them, there are preconditions for making the metaphor 'take'
correctly in the person who hears it. There is another kind of
puppet-related perspective which can be very negative; that in
which only **you** have real feelings and everyone else is a
puppet. That may be the realm in which sociopaths live.
Some people do seem to have difficulty reconciling this vision with
free will. I don't seem to have this problem. What really matters
anyway is to integrate these things in practice, rather than
intellectually.
It's been great talking to you. :)
Namaste,
-David
P.S. while on soul-cosmological speculations, I have wondered the
same thing that you have wondered about dividing. But the existence
of multiple planets can also take care of the day-by-day growing
world population and soul evolution. Not that this stuff matters.
Now, stop making a fool of yourself David and get back to the yoga-
mat.
> And also i feel one soul will divide and can take birth as
multiple
> human beings. This day-by-day growing world population makes me
feel
> that way.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for the wonderful explanations.
>
> I agree with you that vivekananda might have also accumulated
> impurites and hitler might become vivekananda one day too. What we
> are seeing in vivekananda/hitler are just one point of time in the
> timeless and superpowerful infinite soul.
>
> Is all this a puppet play? May be. But I feel it is in our hands
to
> make or break our lives and it is we who suffer/enjoy the results.
> Free will in my view is an important factor because without that
> there is no motivation for being & doing good. If we keep doing
bad
> again and again after sometime may be we loose our free will and
> will have to suffer to some lives full of suffering before which
we
> might be granted the chance to prove ourselves again. (Probably
> thats the reason for people born blind, people who seem to suffer,
> poor people and all the sufferings in the world). I feel this
cycle
> continues till we prove ourself.
>
> But the important question is when and how will we prove ourself?
> Will we ever? AYP says that we all will reach enlightenment one
day
> and that it is written on our genes. But what "for sure" changes a
> hitler to become a vivekananda ultimately is hard to understand
for
> me. May be there is some puppet play by god which makes us finish
> the cycle with the help of our free will.
>
> And also i feel one soul will divide and can take birth as
multiple
> human beings. This day-by-day growing world population makes me
feel
> that way.
>
> Love,
> Near
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999"
<obsidian9999@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
> come
> > > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> didnt?
> >
> > Near,
> >
> > two different threads of responses to that.
> >
> > On the first thread, we merely take the long, temporal view:
> > how do we know that Vivekanananda did not accumulate impurities?
> > How do we know that he did not do a major Hitler number on some
> planet
> > somewhere eons ago? And recovered in time, re-purified his
soul,
> and
> > became what we saw during his life? And why should we expect
that
> > Hitler
> > will not do the same in time?
> >
> > On another thread, we leap straight for the nondual:
> > the impurities only exist in the world of relativity,
> > which is a play,a game, which must be taken seriously
> > only within that game. Both the 'purities' of
> > Vivekananda and the 'impurities' of Hitler seem
> > real from inside the game, but the
> > duality disappears when seen from the point of view
> > outside the game, which is also the
> > point of view from before it or after it.
> >
> > I don't know if you've seen those pictures popularized
> > by the Hare Krishna-Movement (this group has a proper name---
> > I'm just using their 'street name' without
> > disrespect) in which Krishna (God, the Source), in the
> > clouds, as a puppeteer, is moving everything, everything
> > being on puppet-strings. In some of these pictures you can see
> > crimes being committed and Krishna is doing them. You can
> > also see virtuous deeds and spiritual acts, and it is
> > the same there; Krishna is 'doing' the saints, the sinners,
> > the criminal and also the victim, you name it. From another
> point
> > of view, Krishna is 'playing'
> > these roles.
> >
> > In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna says 'I am the gambling of the
> > fraudulent; I am the goodness of the good'. He also says
> > 'In a sage imbued with wisdom and humility, in a cow,
> > elephant, dog and dog-eater, the wise see the same self'.
> >
> > So Vivekananda is Krishna playing 'pure'; Hitler is Krishna
> > playing 'impure'.
> >
> > > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because
if
> it
> > > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one
born
> in
> > > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
> other
> > > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> >
> > In the light of nonduality, or even the long temporal view, are
> > these questions answered or do they remain?
> >
> > I hope that has some meaning for you,
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > -David
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to this
> only
> > > when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> > > philosophical discussion.
> > >
> > > All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless
superconscious
> > > thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of it,
> you
> > > are made of it, hitler is made of it.
> > >
> > > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls how
> come
> > > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> didnt?
> > > What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that
> karma?
> > > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings because
if
> it
> > > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one
born
> in
> > > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > >
> > > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
> other
> > > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> > >
> > > I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to answer
> but
> > > we could try to have some nice discussion.
> > >
> > > Love,
> > > Near
564 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 0:41pm
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls nearoanoke
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Hi david,
Nice to see your responses again. I somehow have difficulty with the
puppet play and free will both together. Probably i need to do more
practices before i can detach and be able to see that way.
I am still a starter (been doing AYP since 3 mons) and AYP is my
introduction to this great world. I love these discussions and enjoy
them thoroughly. I agree with you that my yoga-mat is the best place
to get answers to all these.
Love,
Near
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Thankyou Near.
>
> > Is all this a puppet play? May be. But I feel it is in our hands
> to
> > make or break our lives and it is we who suffer/enjoy the
results.
>
> I think the puppet-play by Krishna is a wonderful metaphor. In
its
> non-seriousness, in its completeness, in its being something to
> which nothing can be added, or nothing taken away....
>
> I don't find it contradicting my sense of free will in any way.
If
> the pot on the stove starts to boil over, I'll take it off the
> heat. But I am starting to know that that was Krishna taking the
> pot off the stove. Nothing in me is free of Krishna though, and
> never can be. If stuff is seen in this way, the duality can
start
> to melt, and a divine, humorous love can start to arise.
>
> Everyone, everything, is the Self, the Beloved, the Divine
> Lord, the Clown who plays the Same Old Game of Hide and Seek in
> Form for aeons.
>
> There is a time and place for every metaphor though, and for all
of
> them, there are preconditions for making the metaphor 'take'
> correctly in the person who hears it. There is another kind of
> puppet-related perspective which can be very negative; that in
> which only **you** have real feelings and everyone else is a
> puppet. That may be the realm in which sociopaths live.
>
> Some people do seem to have difficulty reconciling this vision
with
> free will. I don't seem to have this problem. What really
matters
> anyway is to integrate these things in practice, rather than
> intellectually.
>
> It's been great talking to you. :)
>
> Namaste,
>
> -David
>
> P.S. while on soul-cosmological speculations, I have wondered
the
> same thing that you have wondered about dividing. But the
existence
> of multiple planets can also take care of the day-by-day growing
> world population and soul evolution. Not that this stuff
matters.
> Now, stop making a fool of yourself David and get back to the
yoga-
> mat.
>
> > And also i feel one soul will divide and can take birth as
> multiple
> > human beings. This day-by-day growing world population makes me
> feel
> > that way.
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Thanks for the wonderful explanations.
> >
> > I agree with you that vivekananda might have also accumulated
> > impurites and hitler might become vivekananda one day too. What
we
> > are seeing in vivekananda/hitler are just one point of time in
the
> > timeless and superpowerful infinite soul.
> >
> > Is all this a puppet play? May be. But I feel it is in our hands
> to
> > make or break our lives and it is we who suffer/enjoy the
results.
> > Free will in my view is an important factor because without that
> > there is no motivation for being & doing good. If we keep doing
> bad
> > again and again after sometime may be we loose our free will and
> > will have to suffer to some lives full of suffering before which
> we
> > might be granted the chance to prove ourselves again. (Probably
> > thats the reason for people born blind, people who seem to
suffer,
> > poor people and all the sufferings in the world). I feel this
> cycle
> > continues till we prove ourself.
> >
> > But the important question is when and how will we prove
ourself?
> > Will we ever? AYP says that we all will reach enlightenment one
> day
> > and that it is written on our genes. But what "for sure" changes
a
> > hitler to become a vivekananda ultimately is hard to understand
> for
> > me. May be there is some puppet play by god which makes us
finish
> > the cycle with the help of our free will.
> >
> > And also i feel one soul will divide and can take birth as
> multiple
> > human beings. This day-by-day growing world population makes me
> feel
> > that way.
> >
> > Love,
> > Near
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999"
> <obsidian9999@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls
how
> > come
> > > > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> > didnt?
> > >
> > > Near,
> > >
> > > two different threads of responses to that.
> > >
> > > On the first thread, we merely take the long, temporal view:
> > > how do we know that Vivekanananda did not accumulate
impurities?
> > > How do we know that he did not do a major Hitler number on
some
> > planet
> > > somewhere eons ago? And recovered in time, re-purified his
> soul,
> > and
> > > became what we saw during his life? And why should we expect
> that
> > > Hitler
> > > will not do the same in time?
> > >
> > > On another thread, we leap straight for the nondual:
> > > the impurities only exist in the world of relativity,
> > > which is a play,a game, which must be taken seriously
> > > only within that game. Both the 'purities' of
> > > Vivekananda and the 'impurities' of Hitler seem
> > > real from inside the game, but the
> > > duality disappears when seen from the point of view
> > > outside the game, which is also the
> > > point of view from before it or after it.
> > >
> > > I don't know if you've seen those pictures popularized
> > > by the Hare Krishna-Movement (this group has a proper name---
> > > I'm just using their 'street name' without
> > > disrespect) in which Krishna (God, the Source), in the
> > > clouds, as a puppeteer, is moving everything, everything
> > > being on puppet-strings. In some of these pictures you can
see
> > > crimes being committed and Krishna is doing them. You can
> > > also see virtuous deeds and spiritual acts, and it is
> > > the same there; Krishna is 'doing' the saints, the sinners,
> > > the criminal and also the victim, you name it. From another
> > point
> > > of view, Krishna is 'playing'
> > > these roles.
> > >
> > > In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna says 'I am the gambling of the
> > > fraudulent; I am the goodness of the good'. He also says
> > > 'In a sage imbued with wisdom and humility, in a cow,
> > > elephant, dog and dog-eater, the wise see the same self'.
> > >
> > > So Vivekananda is Krishna playing 'pure'; Hitler is Krishna
> > > playing 'impure'.
> > >
> > > > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings
because
> if
> > it
> > > > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one
> born
> > in
> > > > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > > > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
> > other
> > > > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> > >
> > > In the light of nonduality, or even the long temporal view,
are
> > > these questions answered or do they remain?
> > >
> > > I hope that has some meaning for you,
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > -David
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke"
<nearoanoke@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I had this doubt since long. I know I will get answer to
this
> > only
> > > > when I get self-realization but just wanted to start some
> > > > philosophical discussion.
> > > >
> > > > All of us are made of the same timeless,spaceless
> superconscious
> > > > thing called soul. Vivekananda is made of it, I am made of
it,
> > you
> > > > are made of it, hitler is made of it.
> > > >
> > > > If vivekananda and hitler are both made of the same souls
how
> > come
> > > > one got impurities accumulated through lives while the other
> > didnt?
> > > > What are the things that made hitler's soul accumulate that
> > karma?
> > > > Is it the surroundings? It should not be surroundings
because
> if
> > it
> > > > is because of surroundings then god is injust in making one
> born
> > in
> > > > bad surroundings and another in good.
> > > >
> > > > Then what is it that made one soul behave in one way and the
> > other
> > > > in another way when give equal oppurtunities?
> > > >
> > > > I know it is easier to ask this but may be difficult to
answer
> > but
> > > > we could try to have some nice discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Love,
> > > > Near
559 From: "Danny" <danny@metalhosts.com>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:47am
Subject: Re: Evolution of souls mysticaldan
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Namaste Near,
Nice discussion you have going here and i enjoy reading through them.
Earlier i wud have actually leapt into it myself but now i know better.
When u mention accumalated karma i can only add that Krishna mentioned that
even one true thought of him is enoiugh to wipe out many many births of bad
karma. Its our own identity as a Soul as a part of the One himself that we
need to identify and when we do that we realise there is no distinction, no
good and no bad and that everything is Godliness and Godliness is
everything. Karma exisits as long as we look at good and bad, this and that,
till the time we look at duality and forget that we come from and are a
singularity.
Not sure if that makes sense.
Om Tat Sat
Dan
> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:41:04 -0000
> From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Evolution of souls
>
>
>
> Hi Kathy,
>
> I have given myself this explanation many times but was not
> satisfied completely. Let us say it is because of free will and we
> reap what we sow. That means we accumulate karma bad/good. Then what
> would have happened to hitler in his next lives? What is the
> solution for him. He has accumulated so much of bad karma already
> that his next lives would be even worse and hopeless to cancel the
> effects of this bad karma. If his next lives were to be better, what
> makes them to be better despite of bad karma? If they are worse then
> whats the solution for him? More lives full of suffering as
> disabled/poor etc...? After suffering all those lives he might
> become good(?) and free himself after some time. What makes him good
> again? (I am asking these questions to myself)
>
> I heard from a practitioner that everything happens in a cycle of
> lives. We start and end at the same point. Probably good people will
> have smaller cycles while bad ones have longer cycles.
>
562 From: "Paula Youmans" <paula@webboise.com>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:05am
Subject: RE: Re: Evolution of souls paula_youmans
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Hello everyone -
I've really enjoyed this conversation; it has urged me to
re-examine what I believe and how I came to believe it. I don't see Karma as
a punishment for something I've done, no more than fire is getting back at
me by being hot. My choices create my reality, and when my reality is
unpleasant to me I look back at what choices brought me to this point and
learn what I can from it.
Hitler's are Hitler's because they decide to be.the same reason
some shave their head and others die theirs blue. It reminds me of the story
where two men came upon a town with a sign that read "hell." One man kept
looking for heaven and subsequently starved to death or some such thing,
whereas the second man stayed and became president of the homeowners
association or something like that (LOL.tongue in cheek). Or perhaps you've
heard the old eastern story "Maybe so?" (It goes on forever so I'll save
you the extra text).
I agree that someone's path can change in an instant.as quickly
as you decide to wear a red shirt instead of your blue one. Yesterday isn't
there and tomorrow doesn't exist so all you have is right now.and in every
now you decide who you are. Changing that is as easy as changing your mind
and being what you choose to be.
Isn't it the same person that brought this up as it was the
"free will" question? Very similar question..
It feels like whoever keeps asking this is on the verge of one of those life
changing "ah-ha" moments LOL. Good for you, because nothing anybody will
ever say will bring you as much understanding as your own discoveries! I
look forward to my next "ah-ha!"
Namaste
~Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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