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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 5:14:39 PM
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Just wondering if somebody here with more experience specifically in regards to the "I-Thought" can chime in on this one.
I'm having a hard time distinguishing whether or not, if I think "I" ...if this is the same I that is being referenced by internal dialouge.
For example upon waking up, the inner dialouge of the mind will say, "I gotta get and brush my teeth". There is clear Awareness of this Inner Dialouge and self reference of the I in this dialouge.
However, other time's the "I-Thought" is very subtle and not so clear such as in the case where it's not used by the Inner Dialouge, and in that case it's alot more difficult to be aware of.
Consider the following Koan by Hyoen Sahn:
When you hear your inner voice,
forget it.
That's the Inner dialouge. However sometimes the I-Thought is more subtle and perhaps operates outside of the realm of what the Inner voice says.
In Ramana Maharshi's teachings, he says to hold on to the "I-Thought" and follow it to it's source. So the question is, if you repeat "I" with the inner voice ....is this the same "I-Thought" that we should be following or is there a different one? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 5:39:32 PM
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My understanding of what Ramana is saying is that the "I-Thought" is any thought that has a referenced "I" in it. "I am...." "I will...." etc etc. If you hold on to that thought and trace it all the way back to what you are referencing with the word "I," you will find that there is nothing actually there. At least that's my interpretation of it. 
Love,
Carson  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 6:43:35 PM
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If you view the question in the context of samyama, then what must occur is the release of the question or object (I-thought...who am I?). The answer is found not within something definite or grabbable, but rather within the only single thing which can't be grabbed: silent awareness. But to try to absolutely negate the existence of the I-thought (being the body wanting to brush its teeth) is a pitfall.
The only comfort or reconciliation you will find within the dilemma is by accepting the paradox. The paradox is: the ego is both real and not real--at the same time. Stillness is separate and yet part of the I-thought...simultaneously. That's the union, the merging, the miracle.
The ones who say the ego has no reality whatsoever are misguided. The ego is real on a certain level of reality, that's all. But the I-thought or personality of a person is something that's more akin to a hologram--changing and adapting to its environment and the inner dreams pouring forth from the deeper, divine personality.
The whole joy of life is found in its evolution, beginning on a very personal, intimate level. So you could say: I am THAT (awareness). But you could also say: I am that (a musician, a teacher, a poet, a lover, a friend, a misfit, a criminal, a spiritual practitioner). So, the only way I find to play this self-inquiry game is by dancing with BOTH identities: the non-identity of stillness and the identity of the ego.
The identity game is the most overemphasized, deeply confusing component in the spiritual landscape today, in my opinion. What matters to me is: How are you living your life? How are you getting along with friends, family, and the community? What are you contributing? How are you honoring and participating in the miracle of life?
The question of "Who am I?" does not just lead to some abstract, epiphany-like realization of "I am Stillness". It's more like: "I am Stillness in Action". Yoga = Union. Stillness relies on our FEEDBACK to manifest new layers of reality. The infinite potential of the witness, though unshaken, does not watch passively. There's something very personal and caring about the witness that wants to reach every single fiber of our being on Earth (and beyond). How can it not be so? The culture of humanity reveals the movement of all life towards unity, cooperation, harmony, and diversity thriving in Oneness. But this does not exclude nor shun individuality. Quite the contrary--it celebrates it.
That's why the Earth is round, because you can go round and round as many times as you want. An infinite number of patterns on a seemingly finite surface. A paradox.  |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 7:01:04 PM
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quote:
If you view the question in the context of samyama, then what must occur is the release of the question or object (I-thought...who am I?). The answer is found not within something definite or grabbable, but rather within the only single thing which can't be grabbed: silent awareness. But to try to absolutely negate the existence of the I-thought (being the body wanting to brush its teeth) is a pitfall.
In my case, I've seen the Ego/I construct to be a sham, a false identity if you will. I've seen it rise and fall through a subtle channel ....the seeing being done by awareness.
I've also had awareness fall into this Channel and merge with the One, then quickly come back out of it. It's been fleeting here and there, while understanding and comprehension are gained in these areas.
What I understand of Maharshi, is that Awareness can zoom in on, and latch onto, in One pointed attention, to the the I-Thought ....in a sense grabbing onto it (while letting go of everything else except this) and then it eventually falls back through the subtle channel/Amrita Nadi, and into the Absolute. I've actually glimpsed these things as being true experientially.
However, distinguishing this "I", for me at least, there is some confusion in regards to inner voice vs. I-thought.
quote:
The identity game is the most overemphasized, deeply confusing component in the spiritual landscape today, in my opinion. What matters to me is: How are you living your life? How are you getting along with friends, family, and the community? What are you contributing? How are you honoring and participating in the miracle of life?
To a certain extant I agree. In my case, over 10 years of various samadhis, have me at a place in life now where my heart longs for Union, completion, dissolving into the One. All the aforementioned items about getting along, contributing, honoring etc ....us all doing it the best we can, with effort, is still from a false identity. To merge back into the One and then do those things selflessly is what it's all about and I've seen that this is possible. (with not an ounce of Me or I left in the equation) = everything effortlessly & selflessly arising. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 7:31:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
All the aforementioned items about getting along, contributing, honoring etc ....us all doing it the best we can, with effort, is still from a false identity. To merge back into the One and then do those things selflessly is what it's all about and I've seen that this is possible. (with not an ounce of Me or I left in the equation) = everything effortlessly & selflessly arising.
LOL. God, how cruel Divinity is...to lead us on with a false identity from birth...making us wait for the ONE DAY until we will finally be merged again with the ONE. God, I sure hope that day comes soon, because this false identity of wanting to spread good vibrations and make other people feel good is killing me!  I need to go off to a mountaintop and merge with the ONE to stop this foolishness.  All those samyama sutras I've been uttering in my mind are going to waste because I'm still acting out of ego-motivation!
Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Gag me with a spoon.  |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 10:18:06 PM
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quote:
LOL. God, how cruel Divinity is...to lead us on with a false identity from birth
Who said anything about there being an Ego at birth?
quote:
making us wait for the ONE DAY until we will finally be merged again with the ONE.
Why wait? The One is inherent in all, accessible instantly and all the time. The way there is countless. Knowing this can be simple or complex
quote:
God, I sure hope that day comes soon, because this false identity of wanting to spread good vibrations and make other people feel good is killing me!
perhaps taken out of context originally. did not mean to say that it's not worth doing good for others, contribution, love, help, joy, happiness. There are levels of this. From the Ego perspective, the mind says some days, "Meh, I don;t feel like helping at the soup kitchen on my day off today. Perhaps I'll watch some ball games with some junk food. Merged in the One, there is no feeling one way one day, and then another on another day. There is permanent selflessness
quote:
I need to go off to a mountaintop and merge with the ONE to stop this foolishness. All those samyama sutras I've been uttering in my mind are going to waste because I'm still acting out of ego-motivation!
sarcasm detector
quote:
Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Gag me with a spoon.
Meh. You got your own opinion of these things it seems. For me, my opinions don't matter because my heart yearns, calls out to, burns, and longs for Union, for home, for completion on a permanent scale. When 'I' is gone, then everyone else matters. Until then, I only cares about itself a large % of the time.
On top of this, I genuinely Love you, regardless of whats said here
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2012 : 10:50:08 PM
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| Nice response, beetsmyth! Thank you. Sarcasm properly detected. Love equally shared. Yearning of the heart for union with Divinity undoubtedly of the same intensity. _/\_ It's only a duel-like dance of benevolent wits. No absolutes...just enthusiastic expressions of bhakti. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2012 : 02:27:29 AM
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beetsmyth, I agree with CarsonZi. The point is not to classify, categorize, identify or sort out different types of I-sensations. As soon as you become aware that you are somehow referensing yourself to an entity called "I" - check it out. Just LOOK and see if you can find that entity of I. What is it pointing to? What is "I" referring to? Go find it!
If you want inspiration and nice leading questions on how to LOOK at this, I'd recommend Liberation Unleashed forums and read some of the guidances there, with those who have taken that journey, to see what type of questions effectively leads to this "following the I-thought to its source".
And then Yogani's wisdom is a supernice complement. Freely interpreted: The sensation of I is not a problem! It will always be there. It's a habit and companion. Once seen for what it is, it is no longer a problem. It's the "ego/I" that takes us home. It's our best friend. |
Edited by - emc on Dec 03 2012 02:42:41 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2012 : 03:52:49 AM
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Always tricky.
There isn't one answer, there are different perspectives and they contradict each other.
It can also lead us down the path of none relational self inquiry, which is as useful as a chocolate fire guard. Stillness must be present, otherwise we can get no proportion.
The easiest way to do this inquiry I have found isn't to do a hard inquiry into 'I' . Its easier to get that point before waking up to consciousness. Its an impression only. It can be intuited but you cannot go there, or be that. Its a warm, fuzzy place, it is dimensionless, formless, pure joy, pure love, it has no colour at all, it is entirely pure and untainted.
Try and remain there, you can't of course, but if you hold it as often as you can it becomes clearer that you are not a man, woman, human, father, mother, worker, musician etc. instead you are just 'that'. It helps because it creates a perspective. Get on with everyday stuff, because you are 'that' and not 'this'. When you get dragged into problems, frightened, angry, desirous. Seeing that you are 'that' removes the sense of 'I am angry/frightened/desirous. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2012 : 04:37:12 AM
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BodhiTree - That was a brilliant piece of explanation. I am with you on that one, but you expressed it way better than I ever could.
Sey |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2012 : 4:21:33 PM
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Namaste, Sey. _/\_
HERE WE ARE. ... |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 10:42:28 PM
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Investigate where does the 'I-Thought' come from? What is the Source of the 'I-Thought'? Any time there is a thought, ask 'to whom does this thought occur'? The crux of the matter is that you don't actually know who or what 'I' is, so you find out. The whole point of advaita is that you verify for yourself and don't take anyone's word for anything.
What is real is permanent. The Divine is permanent. The 'I-Thought' is your only clue as to what is permanent. When you investigate into the maker and creator of all your thoughts, you end up with 'I'. So you discover the Source of the 'I-Thought' itself.
In order to have quiet mind, it needs be seen there is nothing for the ego to claim or own. This claimed ownership is a trick of the mind, an illusion. It is the attachment or claimed ownership which results in karma. Both good karma and bad karma. Without the attachment or ownership there can be no karma, there is only the Divine. No karma is moksha, liberation from rebirth.
In order to facilitate the Absolute, we must see the illusory nature of the barrier. Once the 'I-Thought' is seen to be a mental fabrication, the whole ego game collapses. For it is the 'I-Thought' which claims ownership. So by invalidating it, we cut off the illusion at its root.
As the walls and veils separating us from the Absolute begin to evaporate, all that remains is the Divine. We reach a point where the 'I-Thought' is continuously, automatically, always driven directly into Source. Our ability to remain focused in the Divine begins to stabilize, becomes effortless.
Then, even if we keep on resurrecting the 'I-Thought', it won't have the same power over us that it once did. We simply bypass it. We don't fall for the 'trick' anymore.
Edited for clarity
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 22 2013 12:48:31 PM |
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How does one distinguish the "I-Thought" ?
