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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 12:09:59 PM
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Has anyone read "I AM THAT" ?
I am currently reading this series of conversations with Maharaj, and I find them both a bit confusing and disturbing.
His dispassion and non-attachment is so complete that, applying that state of life to taking care of a family or raising children almost seems impossible. Or at the very least, a bit irresponsible.
Maybe I don't fully understand, but I'm not sure I like his description of residing in the Absolute.
Anyone else have similar (or very different) thoughts on this?
Thanks! |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 12:59:24 PM
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It is a modern spiritual classic, and it lives up to it, and then some. If anyone can really genuinely convey, through scattered and translated dialogues, the meaning of enlightenment, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's "I Am That" would be it.
I can see it taking some time to work through the book, reflect on it, and relate it to other beliefs and concepts going on in the mind. Such questions are often brought up in the book, and Maharaj answers them again and again without deflections or distortions from the only source available, which he sometimes refers to simply being Beyond. This of course can only happen if the questioners can also look beyond the limitations of the mind and really be with his responses.
Yes, I have also seen other comments on the book from talking to others who have either read it or just looked briefly into it that diverge well from your questions, and they have left me baffled. In both cases, there was considerable resistance in my attempts to discuss it more, so I let it be in peace. Learning opportunities are really everywhere. |
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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 1:18:00 PM
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Yea, I am only about 50 pages in, which is about 10% of the book....so I have a long way to go. That said, I don't understand this: if everyone simply "is" and their natural state "is" the absolute, what is the point of realizing this during the lifetime? Won't you eventually realize this upon death anyway? And won't that mean that, upon death, everyone just basically "merges" into the absolute?
It makes we wonder if (because obviously Maharaj can convey concepts that include knowledge of the absolute) the absolute awareness is "aware" that it is and once was innumerable human lives? To the point that being the absolute awareness is like having total and complete love of all your family (and everyone else) while simultaneously being all of your loved ones. |
Edited by - Bourgo on Jul 13 2012 1:34:14 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 3:23:05 PM
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No need to understand it  don't analyse it isn't necessary. What is needed will be taken. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 5:46:54 PM
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"The gospel of self-realization, once heard, will
never be forgotten. Like a seed left in the ground, it will wait for
the right season and sprout and grow into a mighty tree."
Sri N. Maharaj, I Am That, 182
Enjoy your reading! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2012 : 09:53:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
"The gospel of self-realization, once heard, will
never be forgotten. Like a seed left in the ground, it will wait for
the right season and sprout and grow into a mighty tree."
Sri N. Maharaj, I Am That, 182
Enjoy your reading!
 absolutely, it needs no explanation, it was never meant to have one. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 03:06:41 AM
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It might be interesting to know that Nisargadatta never managed to combine That with family life. He chose not to be challenged the whole way, avoiding to have a woman by his side. That would surely have brought him a bit closer to integration here on earth, I believe.  |
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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 07:45:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
It might be interesting to know that Nisargadatta never managed to combine That with family life. He chose not to be challenged the whole way, avoiding to have a woman by his side. That would surely have brought him a bit closer to integration here on earth, I believe.
In one sequence, someone asked him if 'he cared when his children were ill'....
He replied that he 'did what was necessary but did not care whether the outcome was good or bad'.
Currently, it escapes me how he can call this reaction "love". I understand the need for non-attachment, etc. but this seems more like selfishness than anything else.
Many times you can see Maharaj's "personality" come through in his teaching...yet he claims to be "beyond consciousness" and not identify with the body. If that were so, why does he relay information with such a personality?
And a better question would be, how can he relay information if he has no identification with either the body nor the witness. If the body knows nothing of the witness (and even less about the ultimate awareness) how could it possibly transmit information about it?
Most other stories of enlightened beings that I have ever heard, those people acted in a completely loving and "passionate" way, despite being non-attached and dispassionate..... Maharaj's behavior seems inconsistent to me. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 2:17:05 PM
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The problem is you are reading it explicitly and referencing the writer. It's not necessary, it does it's work regardless. Just like some rain refreshes plants and some rain drowns people, the rain is not inherently good or bad, it's just rain. This is the same with these books. Trying to analyse and understand is a pointless exercise, it's as pointless as trying to work out why the rain is the rain.
It took a while to realise this. Read it, put it on the shelf or give it away, it's work is done, no more will be found by trying to study it. The rain fell, it did what it needed to do and now go back to whatever it is you were doing. You already know the words as you received them because it is your world in which they appear, they are really your own creation. |
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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 9:57:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
The problem is you are reading it explicitly and referencing the writer. It's not necessary, it does it's work regardless. Just like some rain refreshes plants and some rain drowns people, the rain is not inherently good or bad, it's just rain. This is the same with these books. Trying to analyse and understand is a pointless exercise, it's as pointless as trying to work out why the rain is the rain.
It took a while to realise this. Read it, put it on the shelf or give it away, it's work is done, no more will be found by trying to study it. The rain fell, it did what it needed to do and now go back to whatever it is you were doing. You already know the words as you received them because it is your world in which they appear, they are really your own creation.
Karl, do none of the contradictory statements of a claimed jnani tarnish your view of him?
For instance, in one part he says there is no such thing as purpose only randomness -- in fact he has an entire protracted conversation telling a questioner that there is no such thing as purpose. Then, in another conversation he says: "Let each act according to his nature. The ultimate purpose will be served in any case."
It is difficult to have faith in the validity of such a person when they seem a liar. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 04:21:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
quote:
Originally posted by karl
The problem is you are reading it explicitly and referencing the writer. It's not necessary, it does it's work regardless. Just like some rain refreshes plants and some rain drowns people, the rain is not inherently good or bad, it's just rain. This is the same with these books. Trying to analyse and understand is a pointless exercise, it's as pointless as trying to work out why the rain is the rain.
It took a while to realise this. Read it, put it on the shelf or give it away, it's work is done, no more will be found by trying to study it. The rain fell, it did what it needed to do and now go back to whatever it is you were doing. You already know the words as you received them because it is your world in which they appear, they are really your own creation.
Karl, do none of the contradictory statements of a claimed jnani tarnish your view of him?
For instance, in one part he says there is no such thing as purpose only randomness -- in fact he has an entire protracted conversation telling a questioner that there is no such thing as purpose. Then, in another conversation he says: "Let each act according to his nature. The ultimate purpose will be served in any case."
It is difficult to have faith in the validity of such a person when they seem a liar.
I'm not critiquing the writer, I have no views on him. I see a book full of words that's all, just as I see petals on a flower. What the purpose of the flower is I cannot adequately define. I do not know its relationship, it is just part and parcel of everything. If it has relevance I cannot know it. Is it good, or bad, false or truth I cannot know it. It is and that is all I can know.
So read it and disagree or agree, it makes no difference. It is because it is. I don't want to seem as if I am somehow evading answering your question, I'm simply saying there isn't an answer. I don't choose not debate it, I just see nothing to debate. If you want to debate how best to set up motorcycle suspension, then we can do that, but philosophy isn't a fixed point.
Read, move on. It won't be the first or the last of books which are perplexing and contradictory, don't waste time on them.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 08:26:23 AM
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Teachings can't be analyzed as if the words should be perfectly logical. What is being taught can't completely be put into words. Words are only an approximation.
Spiritual teachers can be learned from, even with imperfect language.
He is using "purpose" for two different meanings. One is God's will, which more often would not be defined as a purpose, and the first time he means individual purpose, like your ego thinking it can make a difference.
Finding imperfections in teachers won't get you anywhere. Some people will be helped by that teacher, but if he doesn't feel right for you, move on and find one who does. Different people need different teachings.
There is no such thing as one perfect teacher for everyone. I know that is controversial, as most religions think there is. But that is only perfect for them. If there were one perfect teacher for everyone, everyone would be drawn to only that one teacher. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 09:12:40 AM
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It would be a disservice to the teaching method if someone else were to resolve the apparent contradictions on terms other than our own. Only clues, and plenty of them at that, were already provided here because of that limitation, in response to what from my point of view represent perfectly natural and genuine reactions in working with the teachings. When those suggestions appear not enough at this point in time, when learning boundaries are being crossed, the only natural response has also already been provided:
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Read it, put it on the shelf or give it away, it's work is done
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 6:35:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
Has anyone read "I AM THAT" ?
I am currently reading this series of conversations with Maharaj, and I find them both a bit confusing and disturbing.
His dispassion and non-attachment is so complete that, applying that state of life to taking care of a family or raising children almost seems impossible. Or at the very least, a bit irresponsible.
Maybe I don't fully understand, but I'm not sure I like his description of residing in the Absolute.
Anyone else have similar (or very different) thoughts on this?
Thanks!
I did not read this book. But based on the point you mentioned the author’s view seems to be genuine to me. You feel it is hard to digest because there are several fundamental differences between AYP way of looking into things and from other point of view. That is it. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 7:15:20 PM
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the next book: "That is It" by Showup  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 11:45:37 PM
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I fully empathize with your consternation, Bourgo. The more I move along with my life and practices, the more I have a distaste for the abstract language of the Advaita teachers.
I like Walt Whitman-type stuff. I like the poets and mystics that constantly use grassroots examples and don't deny the manifest world. Those are the ones that get the blood pumping and serve as practical inspiration.
Here's a great poem by Robinson Jeffers to illustrate what I'm talking about. It's called "Rock and Hawk":
Here is a symbol in which
Many high tragic thoughts
Watch their own eyes.
This gray rock, standing tall
On the headland, where the sea-wind
Lets no tree grow,
Earthquake-proved, and signatured
By ages of storms: on its peak
A falcon has perched.
I think, here is your emblem
To hang in the future sky;
Not the cross, not the hive,
But this; bright power, dark peace;
Fierce consciousness joined with final
Disinterestedness;
Life with calm death; the falcon’s
Realist eyes and act
Married to the massive
Mysticism of stone,
Which failure cannot cast down
Nor success make proud.
Keepin' it real with you, Bourgo! Don't swallow any pills you don't want to! |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 11:04:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
In one sequence, someone asked him if 'he cared when his children were ill'....
He replied that he 'did what was necessary but did not care whether the outcome was good or bad'.
Bhagavad Gita
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The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. Therefore one should know properly what action is, what forbidden action is, and what inaction is. -4.17
One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities. -4.18
Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings. -4.20 |
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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 08:09:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There is no such thing as one perfect teacher for everyone. I know that is controversial, as most religions think there is. But that is only perfect for them. If there were one perfect teacher for everyone, everyone would be drawn to only that one teacher.
I have found that Eckhart Tolle's way of teaching resonates much better with me. Not only is some of the meaning of the original dialogue not lost due to translation (and cultural differences), but Eckhart's explanation of the enlightened state seems much more "whole and complete" than the dark and almost depressing reality presented by Maharaj.
This, of course, is just the way I see it. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 10:22:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There is no such thing as one perfect teacher for everyone. I know that is controversial, as most religions think there is. But that is only perfect for them. If there were one perfect teacher for everyone, everyone would be drawn to only that one teacher.
I have found that Eckhart Tolle's way of teaching resonates much better with me. Not only is some of the meaning of the original dialogue not lost due to translation (and cultural differences), but Eckhart's explanation of the enlightened state seems much more "whole and complete" than the dark and almost depressing reality presented by Maharaj.
This, of course, is just the way I see it.
It's all one it's seems important now that you should have a preference, but just like food, it doesn't really matter what it tastes like, as long as it nourishes the body. The words don't matter at all its the intent. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2013 : 2:35:33 PM
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By way of introduction...
After thorough consideration over the past several months, it seemed to me that this would be the best place for me to begin. Since a brief email correspondence with yogani last June 2012, I have been reluctant to participate in the forums due to sensitive and problematic issues. Nevertheless something kept nagging at my heart to do so. And thus I was in a quandary. What to do? Where to begin, how to begin, or even to begin at all?
So here is the first post and hopefully it will become apparent why it felt most comfortable to post in this thread, as opposed to elsewhere or starting my own thread.
When I found this site, I had been searching without success for some support and explanation of the circumstances I found myself in. So I poured my heart out to yogani. Well then what happened is that I clammed up. It was probably due to a combination of things. I was terrified of sharing my experience in any type of public forum, was extremely confused, was just beginning to find my way out of a sort of nightmare scenario, and wanted to at least appear discrete and sensible. At this point I have to laugh at the way I framed my resistance.
*****
My story begins with a super major samadhi I had in the summer of the year 2000 in which I not only experienced the OM sound/vibration, but I became this current. The samadhi was intense for several hours and altogether lasted maybe 3 or 4 days. What had precipitated the samadhi was very specific.
I had been reading and studying I AM THAT with Nisargadatta Maharaj. One passage apparently catapulted me into the samadhi... Page 175, chapter 39 'By Itself Nothing Has Existence'. He had been saying that what we take for real is merely a reflection of the real. Then he had issued the challenge - why have consciousness focus on the reflection, why not focus on the real itself? haha. yes. but....how to do this?
Well...on that day in the middle of August 2000, I just went with my longing. My copy of I AM THAT looks like it has been through a war. It is my most cherished book, I am always in it. I had extremely intense longing and it became like a boat to carry me across the river...I imagined using every fiber of my being to obey Nisargatta's suggestion and was subsequently delivered into the depths of OM. It was marvelous. But I quickly forgot about it. As I had learned not to cling to samadhis no matter how ecstatic and blissful they are.
Since corresponding with yogani, I began to recall the experiencial history of my spiritual path - objectively trying to get a handle on my rather weird energy by tying it down to a timeline of dates and experience. After much due diligence, it became obvious that the energy fluctuations and weirdness - it all began with this samadhi. Up to that point, my life had been relatively quiet and manageable.
This is a long post but there is one more thing to address. When I was 8 years old it was quite natural to engage in "who am I?" and neti-neti. It ended up with an out of body experience, which I found could be repeated upon demand any time I wanted over the next few years. Much much later when I found my guru Ramana Maharshi in a pamphlet in New Mexico, it became very clear that Ramana has been my guru for at least the last few lifetimes and perhaps longer. As nearly as possible, I am constantly engaging in self inquiry as the foundation of my consciousness. It constitutes a kind of ongoing meditation which I may have been doing all my life since infancy.
Mods, please feel free to move this post if you feel it should be elsewhere.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2013 : 2:57:00 PM
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hello paravati9
thank u for sharing and welcome to the forums |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2013 : 6:26:01 PM
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Thankyou for the welcome maheswari.
Does Nisargadatta present a dark and almost depressing reality? (as OP says) Maybe to some he does. He can be helpful to those who repeatedly come to the edge of the cliff and fail to make the leap. He's like the cheerleader who stands with me and says, "you can do it, it really is so easy, it really is effortless. Just leap! Now go on....do it...there's nothing stopping you and nothing to fear."
The LEAP is simply jumping into the loving arms of your Real Self. For me the leap is taking a flying jump through all the barriers between me and the Divine. Don't go around the obstacle; go straight through it. This takes enormous clarity of intent and focused energy. Nisargadatta cuts through my foolishness in a way that delivers me to the leap. You can't leap while carrying a load of baggage. Nisargadatta helps you see that your baggage is useless so that you can release it and then work on what matters - focusing your intent.
So what Nisargadatta does for me is he reveals in a way I can clearly see---that all the obstacles I continually put inbetween me and God---they aren't real. You know, they are all in my imagination.
But before you can get to that point, you need to distinguish between what is real and what isn't real. This is essentially what occured for me in the samadhi described above.
There comes a point of no return. You become committed and married to the path for better or worse and there is no going back to the comfort zone of being completely asleep. You may keep on running toward pleasure and away from pain. But after awhile you see it isn't working.
When you realize what you've always done isn't working, then you're ripe to listen to the teacher. I can see that Nisargadatta isn't perfect for everyone. But he sure cut through all my excuses, rationalizations, hesitations, etc. When he says leap - I am inspired to leap just because he said to do it. I guess that means I trust him.
It may take some time for the right teacher to draw you near. You have to make it clear to the universe what you want. Once you do so, the right teacher will be able to find you, guaranteed.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2013 : 8:16:48 PM
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Hi Parvati9,
Welcome to the forums.
Your words and writing are deeply inspiring and resonate profoundly here. Thanks so much for sharing. Looking forward to more from you.
Love,
kami |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 11:04:48 AM
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| Thankyou very much kami for the warm welcome. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 12:24:19 PM
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Hi Parvati9, and welcome to the forums.
Very much enjoy your writing, and wish to hear again from your experiences, and thoughts on other discussions. It is insightful, and inspiring.
I have read about others who have encountered (perhaps through clairvoyance) a guru that they later recognized as Ramana Maharshi. I don't recall the author in one case, but he said it was an ongoing occurrence when he was just an infant. Such recollection is impressive at such early ages, maybe as much as direct access to memories of past lives.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj also asserted that guidance will be provided to everyone "from within."
"When a gnani joins the universal mind,
all his goodness and wisdom become the heritage of humanity
and uplift every human being" (I Am That, p. 89).
It emphasizes the importance of both becoming ripe (integrity, meditation, purification..) and of passing it on like the saying here at AYP about candles lighting candles. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 3:31:44 PM
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AumNaturel thankyou for the welcome and positive feedback, also for the reference p.89 which I looked up.
For me, I AM THAT is a spiritual treasure worth far more than the material cost.
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I AM THAT with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
