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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 30 2012 : 8:50:31 PM
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There was a sat-sang yesterday evening here. The topic was developing Intuitiveness. Our master talked about mindfulness/ consciousness and from there developing Intuitiveness. He was talking about Yoga and Zen and comparing them, with respect to creating mindfulness or consciousness . He said that Yoga is like drilling a hole in the wall and entering the closed room, while Zen is like opening the door and entering the room.
It gave me an impression that Zen as easier and smoother approach for being mindfulness all the time. Since I know only Tantras and Yoga and not much about Zen, appreciate if any of our members like Kirtanman can advise comparing Zen and Yoga.
Thanks in advance. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2012 : 10:30:35 PM
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Namaste yogishankar 
I have no Zen experience, so this is based on my observations of Zen and my experience with Tantric Yoga. In other words, I could be VERY WRONG. Caveat Emptor.
Zen seems easier and smoother than Yoga, and seems to give faster noticeable (surface) results. It seems to be more on the inner silence/blissful side than the energetic/ecstasy side.
For that reason, I think Yoga goes deeper quicker and is more integrative. You may not notice changes as quickly as in Zen, but there is deep cleansing going on under the surface, which you will notice later.
It seems that eventually, regardless of path, bliss and energy need to be integrated, interweaved, and I believe that's built into Yoga right out of the gates.
That's not to diss Zen; I believe they both lead to the same place in the end.
But I'd suggest trusting your own experience or that of someone with experience with both Zen and Yoga.
AUM [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2012 : 10:50:30 PM
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I have no Zen experience, so this is based on my observations of Zen and my experience with Tantric Yoga.
Is Zen included in Tantra techniques? I was looking at Buddhist technique of observing breathing and note that that was the first technique in Vijnana Bhairava Tantra. |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jun 30 2012 11:43:05 PM |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 08:51:29 AM
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Hi, Cosmic I was surprised to read that for you Zen give faster results. For Yogani it's much faster Deep Meditation than breath meditation.
Before reading Autobiography of a yogi and starting Kriya Yoga, I read a bit about Zen and practised on my own breath meditation. It was good. Then I read the instruction of Paramahansa Yogananda of listening to the OM sound, and almost instantly perceived it while in deep concentration. Then I started practising Kriya. Maha Mudra+OM Japa in the chakras+ Navi Kriya + Pranayama (Spinal breathing)before meditation was a huge difference. Also I use a mantra in meditation with awareness in the body and not pay attention to the breath. After Spinal Breathing, in meditation there's almost no breath, very peaceful situtation, and if I pay attention to the breath I breath faster (I know breath meditation calms the breath, but for me not after Spinal breathing).
Also a Key difference between both is the posture. While in meditation in Zen, you always must restore your posture when you notice that you are not straight. However in Kriya Yoga and AYP you don't move, because it could break the possible coming breathless state/Samadhi. In Deep Meditation you just go back to the mantra when you notice you are off it. |
Edited by - Will Power on Jul 01 2012 08:58:39 AM |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 09:53:43 AM
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Thanks to Will and Cosmos for their contribution.
On a discussion with a senior person, I understood that Zen meditation techniques involve gaps. One should think of two objects and in the event of such knowledge being matured, then cast both aside and dwell on the gap/ space in the middle.
Now I understand clearly why Master was talking about Zen. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 3:26:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
Thanks to Will and Cosmos for their contribution.
On a discussion with a senior person, I understood that Zen meditation techniques involve gaps. One should think of two objects and in the event of such knowledge being matured, then cast both aside and dwell on the gap/ space in the middle.
Now I understand clearly why Master was talking about Zen.
Hi Yogishankar,
I'll respond to your main question above a little later -- and I'm glad to see that Will Power and cosmic have offered their perspective, as well.
In the meantime, here's an overview of the gap , and related information, that you might find interesting.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:21:22 PM
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Hi Yogishankar and All,
Comments below.
quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
There was a sat-sang yesterday evening here. The topic was developing Intuitiveness. Our master talked about mindfulness/ consciousness and from there developing Intuitiveness.
Yes - every spiritual path, including AYP, follows the same general "trajectory" as consciousness opens. There's a vast amount of variety to individual experience, of course, but one of the hallmarks of progress is opening to conscious experience of intuition on an ongoing basis, as opposed to being identified with over-focus on objects in one's mind (thoughts, feelings, limited sense-of-self, etc.).
In Kashmir Shaivism, this is called Pratibha.
You might want to read Yogani's new book Liberation; in it, he provides an excellent, clear overview of the different stages experienced as liberation unfolds, which, again, are the same, in every tradition.
As the Rig Veda states:
"Truth is One; sages express it in various ways."
quote:
He was talking about Yoga and Zen and comparing them, with respect to creating mindfulness or consciousness . He said that Yoga is like drilling a hole in the wall and entering the closed room, while Zen is like opening the door and entering the room.
I would respectfully disagree, in the sense that it sounds as though he is saying that Zen is superior to "yoga" -- when I would say that's not really an "apples to apples" comparison, necessarily.
Every spiritual system has both teachings and techniques, and "yoga" is often the generic term for the techniques portion. That's why, for instance, the full name of the Kashmir Shaivism text is the "Yoga Spandakarika" -- it, like the Vijnanabhairava Tantra, is a book of techniques (yoga), based on the teachings found in the Shiva Sutras of Vasugupta, and other texts, in the same way that Patanjali's Yoga Sutras are the "techniques" portion of Samkhya philosophy, or that certain inquiry/awareness techniques are the "techniques" (yoga) portion of Advaita Vedanta, and so on.
The term Zen in Japanese actually comes from the term Chan in Mandarin Chinese, which is derived from the Sanskrit term Tantra and/or Dhyana (Meditation).
You might also be interested in Daniel Odier's commentary on the Yoga Spandakarika -- he is initiated into Kashmir Shaivism and Chan ("Chinese Zen"), and so, he has perspective on the harmony and similarity between the two systems that most people don't have.
quote:
It gave me an impression that Zen as easier and smoother approach for being mindfulness all the time. Since I know only Tantras and Yoga and not much about Zen, appreciate if any of our members like Kirtanman can advise comparing Zen and Yoga.
Thanks in advance.
I'm not sure that's true. In the early stages, possibly -- but as opening progresses, a given person usually passes through very similar experience, and in my experience and observation, AYP, Kashmir Shaivite yoga, and other yogic systems, may actually be better-suited to overall balance, and a smoother "journey".
However, some Zen practitioners may have a "smooth ride" for the most part, and some yogis may have the opposite -- it's ultimately all very individual.
I've never practiced Zen myself, but the few "serious Zen" practitioners I've known (including well-known spiritual teacher Adyashanti, who awakened out of Zen, as he states it) have been very "hardcore" -- and it seems like the more balanced approach of, for instance, AYP, can get us to the same "place" at least as quickly, and possibly more smoothly.
I hope that helps; please let me know if you have any more questions. |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 01 2012 4:26:51 PM |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:21:50 PM
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Also for me it's key to feel ecstatic to perform Aswini Mudra while chanting (alloud or mentally) Sri Ram mantram (Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram), about one contraction (pression inward) per 2 seconds, placing special attention in the relaxation (presion outward). I also try to couple the Aswini Mudra contractions and relaxations with Sambhavi Mudra contractions and relaxations. I try to chant one syllable of the Mantra per second/heart beat.
For me these are great tools of Yoga, but not used in Zen |
Edited by - Will Power on Jul 01 2012 4:27:23 PM |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:27:37 PM
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Namaste Kirtanman,
Thank you very much for your kind advices. I am not going to practice Zen but wanted to understand its effectiveness interms of developing Intuitiveness. I received answers from your responses and the senior person with whom I spoke to.
_/\_ |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 01 2012 4:28:22 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:32:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
Namaste Kirtanman,
Thank you very much for your kind advices. I am not going to practice Zen but wanted to understand its effectiveness interms of developing Intuitiveness. I received answers from your responses and the senior person with whom I spoke to.
_/\_
Namaste Yogishankar,
You're very welcome.
Intuitive awareness, or pratibha, is actually a result of the expanded scope of consciousness which naturally results from effective practices of all kinds.
Therefore, the most effective system for developing intuitive awareness is the system that's most effective for you.
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 11:10:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
I was surprised to read that for you Zen give faster results. For Yogani it's much faster Deep Meditation than breath meditation.
Namaste Will 
Just for the record, that's not what I was saying. I was trying to make a subtle point using too few words, so I obviously miscommunicated. My apologies.
I find that AYP goes very deep in a relatively short period of time. Because of the depth, change can be very subtle and not noticeable until after a few months (or longer) have passed.
But rest assured, change is happening beneath the surface. Deep change that is long lasting.
In Zen, mindfulness is used as a practice. I've tried that before, with limited results. Using AYP deep meditation as my primary practice, I see mindfulness more as a result than a cause. AYP leads to mindfulness in a natural and unforced way, at least in my experience.
AUM [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 11:42:04 PM
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"I hope that helps; please let me know if you have any more questions."
"the few "serious Zen" practitioners I've known (including well-known spiritual teacher Adyashanti, who awakened out of Zen, as he states it) have been very "hardcore""
Namaste Kirtanman,
I woke-up to sprituality last year and contemplated it for few months. I picked up speed since May 2012 after attending Inner Engineering Program conducted by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev and have been doing extremely well since then. I have been reading plenty of Bihar School of Yoga books, Osho Rajneesh books (112 secrets meditation), few advaitha books.
As per my understanding, Kundalini awakening is considered as the most important turning point and aspect of spiritual path. Every one should aspire for it. I had my kundalini awakening just a glimpse thru shaktipat method. I am desiring to make the Kundalini awakening on permanent basis.
Does Zen or mindful meditation techniques either from VBT or some where help in Kundalini awakening?
Is my understanding of Kundalini awakening correct? If so, what would be the way to awaken the Kundalini?
Thankful if you can please advise. _/\_ |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 01 2012 11:47:33 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 09:34:47 AM
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Hi Yogishankar,
Don't mean to interrupt your discussion with Kirtanman. I just wanted to say that I have had very good experiences with the Zen "mindful" approach. Being in the momement and payiing attention (to everything) is always helpful on your path.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 6:12:55 PM
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Namaste Yogishankar,
quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
As per my understanding, Kundalini awakening is considered as the most important turning point and aspect of spiritual path. Every one should aspire for it. I had my kundalini awakening just a glimpse thru shaktipat method. I am desiring to make the Kundalini awakening on permanent basis.
Well, as with all of us, I can only speak from my experience -- and what worked for me was AYP --- specifically the fundamental combination of Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing.
As many others here can tell you, the traditional signs of Kundalini awakening as given in the yogic texts tend to be experienced when practicing AYP as well, as Yogani covers point-by-point, in the lessons.
quote:
Does Zen or mindful meditation techniques either from VBT or some where help in Kundalini awakening?
Everyone's experience is different, of course, but I would think that, generally speaking, deep meditation and spinal breathing would be more effective to start. Spinal breathing stimulates energy-movement more directly, which helps to remove obstructions to both flow of energy and to a more comprehensive experience of consciousness.
Once a certain amount of this has taken place, the result is establishment of a basic degree of what AYP calls inner silence. It was my experience, and AYP teaches this, as well, that it is at this point that more mind/attention oriented techniques (such as inquiry, noticing the gap, mindfulness, etc.) are usually far more effective, than if someone tries to start with those mind/attention oriented techniques.
That's not to say that doing your best to be more present and aware isn't a good thing -- it always is -- I'm saying that in terms of specific practices for awakening Kundalini, as you state it, I would think that just following the AYP lessons would likely be more effective. That's what I did -- and it's worked wonderfully well for me.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 6:18:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Yogishankar,
Don't mean to interrupt your discussion with Kirtanman. I just wanted to say that I have had very good experiences with the Zen "mindful" approach. Being in the momement and payiing attention (to everything) is always helpful on your path.
Hey Jeff,
I figure: it's all group discussion, in any case!
And thanks for that - good and important input.
I'm not that familiar with literal Zen mindfulness techniques, but I have the sense that, in some cases at least, mindfulness is more about focus, whereas the type of presence/awareness that you and I have discussed is more about kind of a "natural resting awareness", which is inherently present.
Maybe you can respond, or others can chime in -- I just figure that it's good to be sure we're talking about the same thing.
I agree, as I said to Yogi Shankar, that presence / awareness is always good -- understanding, of course, that the more inner silence we've developed, the more naturally and easily this presence / awareness occurs.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 9:09:24 PM
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Zen mindfulness starts out focusing on something like breathe or feeling the body, but expands to natural awareness or being present in the moment. Both lead in the same direction. Also, I think things like truly "listening" to music (or a spouse) can be a simple mindful practice which can add to AYP.
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2012 : 2:24:15 PM
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Yoga, especially tantric yoga, includes a wider array of practices. Zen is mostly zazen, sitting meditation. Plus, consciously bringing the meditative/mindful attitude from meditation out into one's everyday life.
But, in temple life there usually was more to it - including even physical exercise that took awareness and concentration (often, an offspring of martial arts), arts like caligraphy or ikebana, and mundane daily work similar to "karma yoga work" in ashrams (gardening, cooking, maintenance, tidying up the rooms etc.) Therefore, it seems more accurate to say that yoga is wider in the kernel. |
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Yoga Vs Zen
