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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 10 2012 : 08:58:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
To each his own! Thanks for your replies, gentlemen!
You're welcome.  I hope the thread was useful.
The problem with advaita is that there are advaitans and neo-advaitans and it's difficult to distinguish between the two sometimes. 
Another problem is that even when you find a real teacher, you need to realise that everything that's said is not really true but only a provisional truth tailored to the individual student's current understanding - the thorn to remove the thorn. |
Edited by - gatito on Mar 10 2012 09:30:28 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2012 : 11:20:53 AM
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quote:
To each his own! Thanks for your replies, gentlemen!
i really like your expression style Bodhi Tree |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2012 : 1:44:25 PM
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@gatito: That thread = incredibly useful.
@maheswari: Your style = equally enjoyable.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2012 : 3:30:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beckon
I tried skipping the zoplicone last night and ended up taking melatonin instead at around 2 am. The effect was something like rubber-banding between vivid dream state and consciousness. Most unpleasant. Quite distressing, actually.
Hi Beckon
Sorry to hear you had a distressing and difficult sleep last night.
How long have you been taking zopiclone for and (if you don't mind my asking) what other meds are you currently regularly taking?
I would not recommend (not that anyone is looking for my recommendations  ) switching over to valium as suggested in the link posted by Gatito simply because benzo's are just as difficult, if not more so, to downdose from. What I would suggest would be to start downdosing from zopiclone by breaking the pill in half and using only ~3.75mgs instead of 7.5mgs (I assume you are only using 1 pill a night). Personally I never had withdrawals from zopiclone, but that could be because I was using heroin and a plethora of other CNS depressants in conjunction with zopiclone and that likely eased any withdrawals that may have been happening.
Just wondering, but did you engage in some vigorous exercise like I suggested after dinner last night or did you just not take the zopiclone and hope for the best? I highly (can't recommend this enough) suggest that you tire yourself out as much as possible before going to bed if you are not going to take the zopiclone. You may even find it helpful to have a full ejaculatory orgasm before falling asleep as that could lower the internal energies to a point where less sedation is necessary for sleep.
One last thing.... taking melatonin at 2am is not a great idea (although I totally understand why you did that). If you are going to use melatonin it's a good idea to take it at around 9pm. And keep in mind that melatonin only helps if there is a natural lack of melatonin being secreted. If the pineal gland is secreting a normal amount of melatonin and your sleep disturbance is not related to a lack of melatonin, taking melatonin suppliments will likely not help much. Just something to be aware of.
If you want to try a more natural sleep aid (these will also ease withdrawal symptoms from zopiclone) you could always try things like valerian capsules, lemon balm, chamomile, passion flower, and hops capsules.
Again, sorry you are struggling like this, hope everything sorts itself out soon.
Love!
Carson 
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2012 : 08:50:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I would not recommend (not that anyone is looking for my recommendations ) switching over to valium as suggested in the link posted by Gatito simply because benzo's are just as difficult, if not more so, to downdose from.
Just to echo Carson's suggestion...I personally had a recreational addiction to benzo's, and it took falling off a balcony to get me to stop. They're highly addictive, and therefore wisely abstained from.
Not that anyone's looking for my echoes or affirmations. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2012 : 1:32:46 PM
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Just to reiterate my actual advice :-
quote:
Originally posted by gatito
This might help - but you should really discuss it with a sympathetic and knowledgable doctor in order to be properly supported.
Best Wishes.
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beckon
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2012 : 7:16:47 PM
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I've been on Zoplicone for about 3 months. I've had oddball sleep habits my entire life, but ever since my psychotic episode peaked, an uneven night of sleep just destroys me. I've attempted the half-pill strategy before, but not in conjunction with exercise/orgasm. I'll give that a try.
I was on Risperidone and Benztropine for about a month and a half, and dropped both after getting out of hospital. I've just recently resumed taking the Benztropine (my mood really bottomed out), which seems to add another layer of fatigue to the at-my-core exhaustion already present.
Throw active kundalini into the mix and it's hard to tell up from down, left from right. |
Edited by - beckon on Mar 11 2012 9:30:11 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2012 : 10:21:19 AM
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Hi Beckon
Yes, Benztropine (which is an anticholinergic med) supresses the parasympathetic nervous system so it is bound to cause at least some fatigue.
To me it sounds like your body (and likely the mind as well) is battling against itself. It sounds to me like you are, in a sense, being ripped in half. The kundalini is wanting to ramp things up (causing all kinds of negative/uncomfortable symptoms since your nervous system is not prepared for the amount of energy flow that is happening) and the body is wanting to shut itself down to mitigate possible damage. And it sounds to me like the kundalini is winning the battle and you are having to use medication to keep things even remotely stable/manageable... and I totally understand why you would go there. Fortunately there are other methods to help balance and open the nervous system that don't involve the long term use of medication.
If I were you (and obviously I'm not so please take anything I say with a grain of salt and weigh it against your internal resonance) I would begin a gentle twice daily AYP practice set. I would start my practice with 2-5 minutes of Spinal Breathing Pranayama http://www.aypsite.org/41.html which should help to center the energy in the spinal column and begin to open the energy channels so you begin to have less "friction" between the energy and the energy blockages (which is what causes the physically uncomfortable symptoms).
I would then follow-up the practice of Spinal Breathing Pranayama with 10-15 minutes of Deep Meditation http://www.aypsite.org/13.html which will help with the mental turmoil that is bound to happen when the body is being physically and energetically pulled in opposing directions. The Deep Meditation practice will help to break the mind's mental habit of holding on to the thoughts that are causing the suffering over your current condition and help to cultivate the ability to accept the fact that you are where you are.
I would conclude my practice with a full 15 minute rest period allowing everything to settle down before getting up and going back into daily activity. I would make sure that I was dilligent in watching for both positive and negative effects of the practices during daily activity and adjust the timing of the practices as necessary in order to find optimal balance.
I would also continue with a half pill of zopiclone for now, and perhaps the Benztropine as well if that felt right inside. What I have personally found with regards to meditation and medication, is that with a twice daily set of AYP practices, over time (and often not an awful lot of it) the need for medication goes away and it becomes much easier to function on a normal level without it. The downdosing becomes natural and organic and there is little need for forcing... essentially the need for medication falls away on it's own. At least that is my experience and I was using drugs that were much more physically addicting than zopiclone or benztropine (I was on a moderate to large daily dose of methadone).
Anyway, I hope this helps in some way and that you can find some peace in your mind soon. Please don't hesitate to continue to ask questions and seek support here... you'll be in my thoughts and prayers.
Lots of love,
Carson |
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beckon
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2012 : 7:32:31 PM
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Carson, thanks so much for the detailed and thoughtful response: it is truly appreciated.
It's actually Mirtazapine that I'm taking now as an anti-depressant; the Benzatropine I've stopped taking completely for some time now. Sorry for the mix up, but I assume the same logic applies: down-dose in conjunction with spinal breathing/meditation. I was able to half the Zopiclone last night, which was encouraging.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
To me it sounds like your body (and likely the mind as well) is battling against itself. It sounds to me like you are, in a sense, being ripped in half. The kundalini is wanting to ramp things up (causing all kinds of negative/uncomfortable symptoms since your nervous system is not prepared for the amount of energy flow that is happening) and the body is wanting to shut itself down to mitigate possible damage.
It's almost eerie how dead-on that description is. |
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beckon
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2012 : 10:52:39 PM
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A couple observations as my mood and sleep (if anything, I am oversleeping now) are stabilizing:
The crown/eye sensations seem to stop completely during the night. There's a brief period after waking up where I can't discern any activity at all, and then the eye will swoop gently into place and it's back to business as usual. Also, a dense energetic tingling (especially in the extremities) has re-emerged... I recognize it from how my body felt after the initial blast of kundalini energy. It's very similar to the tingling that is experienced after sleeping on an arm and having it "fall asleep", except without the discomfort and numbness. In other words, feels pretty good! |
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eyeknownothing
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 5:37:22 PM
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Bodhi, your post about the pretentious gurus really struck a chord with a lot of what's been swimming around in my mind, working itself around, for the past several months. The way in which almost everyone in this thread apologizes for their personal truth with some kind of "don't get offended" statement rings similar bells. Whenever I find myself upset with someone, I endeavor to uncover how my perceptual mirror is reflecting this projected annoyance. You say you detect pretension from these men speaking their truth, and you also say your early family foundation consists of people using their powers of speech dishonestly, as do I. Your posts also seem to come from the mind of a man who knows a thing or two. In the yoga world, we constantly hear repeated the ancient spiritual precept of ahimsa, urging us to do no harm...I believe this is important, but it seems to me that we modern people, myself so totally included, often allow this concept to escape from its focus on survival and begin to apply to our interactions with other people's imaginary ego structures, just as our survival concerns, robbed of any application to actual survival, manifest through stress over the survival of our constantly unconsciously recycling ego structures. When we choose to differentiate ourselves from our surroundings by taking action, whether it be through feeling, thought, or deed, we effectively kill the old universe and birth a new one. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing and all that?...
I feel that I personally have allowed my new focus on oneness and non-violence to engender some idea that I've somehow done something wrong, that the universe could somehow have a problem with the actions of my life which were the inevitable result of its very own giving rise to my existence as a separate entity, the very actions which have led me to discover a higher, cosmic focus and without which I would have never discovered anything. This idea has stuck with me for a long time because I've held yoga so sacred. Where must a person arrive before its the right time to spread his or her truth without worrying whose set of delicate sensibilities may get its knickers in a twist? Should we actually be careful of how much suffering we take away from people, because by doing so we may go too far and steal all of their chances for enlightenment, just as Adyashanti said? How many of us here would never have found ayp without excesses in despair, drugs, food, mania, sex, etc? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 6:37:04 PM
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What is to be gained by spreading your own truth?
What is to be gained by offending someone? How will that further your own quest?
It's also worth examining your mirror even if you strongly agree with someone not only when you disagree.
Certainly, if you can remove someone else's suffering there is no harm done. However you should examine your own motives closely. If there is a sign of bolstering the Ego, self righteousness, glorification, pride, gain etc then be wary.
Once you have polished your own rough edges there is no way you can upset anyone because your ego no longer requires feeding. Your actions become truly selfless, in effect you no longer have a sense of actions as you are stillness itself.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 8:09:26 PM
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Greetings Eye,
These are deep questions you ask (with equally deep insights), and I have to ask these questions myself, often during the times when I interact with family, friends, and co-workers. The implications are very real and practical (not just abstract). Always is the question looming: What will really help the person who seems to be suffering (including myself)?
When I release that question in inner stillness, the answer almost inevitably returns as: less is more. So, I try to remember that, restraining my great propensity to launch into full-blown explanations of the mechanics of suffering. I have a love for words, and I love to be playful, penetrating, dynamic, and so on...with the gift of language. But, silence is golden--not just inner, but outer too. The silent actions of love/radiance/unity speak louder than the long-winded words of the intellect.
But what you write also makes me think of an important distinction, which I think you've so keenly tapped into: there is a difference between being nice and being kind. Often, being nice/polite is something that occurs on the surface, but does not necessarily reflect the inner condition of a person. However, being genuinely kind and loving is something that radiates from inner silence. In our American culture, many people wear masks with plastic smiles and hyperactive cheer. It's part of the obsession to appear as perfect--no blemishes, no defects, no disabilities. But the oddities, weirdness, and imperfections are what makes life fascinating and beautiful--to me. Also, some of the most loving people in my life have been those not too afraid to be a little crude with their humor or in calling people out (but their crude expressions and impoliteness have not been laced with malice or vindictiveness).
That being said, this a very well-maintained forum, and one of the excellent policies is no guru bashing. So, I want to fully abide and honor that.
Still, I think it's important to examine and challenge the teachings (and even agendas) of well-known teachers.
Just today, I was thinking...you know, when I have internal diatribes filled with "projected annoyance" (as you say), I'm going to samyamize my targets. At first, I was like: No! These gurus don't need my prayers or my energy! But then I thought: Aha, it's actually my relationship with them that needs the prayers and the samyama energy.
And I also really, really like this in your above post:
I feel that I personally have allowed my new focus on oneness and non-violence to engender some idea that I've somehow done something wrong, that the universe could somehow have a problem with the actions of my life which were the inevitable result of its very own giving rise to my existence as a separate entity, the very actions which have led me to discover a higher, cosmic focus and without which I would have never discovered anything.
That is why I'm so drawn to and fond of AYP teachings. Yogani says...neither the ego nor the mind nor the collected karma of our actions is our enemy. These are in fact the gateways to liberation. Other teachers seems to constantly portray the mind and ego as enemies. Not so, here. The mind and ego are tools for transcendence.
Thanks for sharing your very real and contemplative words. It is so refreshing to find like-minded souls in these forums.
Rock on! |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 9:06:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Certainly, if you can remove someone else's suffering there is no harm done. However you should examine your own motives closely. If there is a sign of bolstering the Ego, self righteousness, glorification, pride, gain etc then be wary.
I remember Yogani saying something quite beautiful, either in a post or in a lesson. He said something to the effect that when he reads the e-mails with affirmations that AYP practices are improving the quality of people's lives, his heart is filled with joy. And then he said: "So, you see, I'm very selfish." So, he may not have pride or profit motives, but he's still got an ego that's motivated to help bring about liberation on the earth-plane. In some sense, enlightenment is not the death of the ego, it's the ultimate fulfillment of the ego's existence.
On that note, here's two good quotes about the enlightenment process from this terrific website:
http://biologyofkundalini.com
"And it is this chemical, energetic and experiential reformation, which leads to what we know as Ego Death...whereas really it should be known as an expansion of the tight boundaries of the Ego to encompass a larger felt-sense of humanization."
"To have mastered life is to realize--Life as Ego Death--is the glorification of the Ego not the degradation of it."
Always remember, if there's a body that's typing the words that fly from the keyboard onto the screen, then there's an ego. It may be an enlightened, loving, non-dual, and unified ego, but it's an ego nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Once you have polished your own rough edges there is no way you can upset anyone because your ego no longer requires feeding. Your actions become truly selfless, in effect you no longer have a sense of actions as you are stillness itself.
There's no way you can upset anyone? Hmmm...when I ponder the the life of an enlightened master such as Jesus Christ, it seems quite evident that he certainly upset plenty of people and ruffled lots of feathers! Chasing out the money changers from the temple, for instance... |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 03:45:04 AM
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| thank you for this useful contemplative thread everybody...especially Boddhi Tree |
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eyeknownothing
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 05:05:09 AM
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| No kidding! Or Muktananda roaring like a tiger and freaking out his neighbors |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 06:01:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Certainly, if you can remove someone else's suffering there is no harm done. However you should examine your own motives closely. If there is a sign of bolstering the Ego, self righteousness, glorification, pride, gain etc then be wary.
I remember Yogani saying something quite beautiful, either in a post or in a lesson. He said something to the effect that when he reads the e-mails with affirmations that AYP practices are improving the quality of people's lives, his heart is filled with joy. And then he said: "So, you see, I'm very selfish." So, he may not have pride or profit motives, but he's still got an ego that's motivated to help bring about liberation on the earth-plane. In some sense, enlightenment is not the death of the ego, it's the ultimate fulfillment of the ego's existence.
On that note, here's two good quotes about the enlightenment process from this terrific website:
http://biologyofkundalini.com
"And it is this chemical, energetic and experiential reformation, which leads to what we know as Ego Death...whereas really it should be known as an expansion of the tight boundaries of the Ego to encompass a larger felt-sense of humanization."
"To have mastered life is to realize--Life as Ego Death--is the glorification of the Ego not the degradation of it."
Always remember, if there's a body that's typing the words that fly from the keyboard onto the screen, then there's an ego. It may be an enlightened, loving, non-dual, and unified ego, but it's an ego nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Once you have polished your own rough edges there is no way you can upset anyone because your ego no longer requires feeding. Your actions become truly selfless, in effect you no longer have a sense of actions as you are stillness itself.
There's no way you can upset anyone? Hmmm...when I ponder the the life of an enlightened master such as Jesus Christ, it seems quite evident that he certainly upset plenty of people and ruffled lots of feathers! Chasing out the money changers from the temple, for instance...
Quick, check again, is there anywhere suggested that there is no Ego or self? Nope, that's because I didn't say, or imply it and my poor explanation is totally concurrent with the passage quoted....well, except for Humanization bit, which seems like a return to narrow Ego thinking ( just my take on it as a word ).
As to Jesus, that's not a comparison I'm able to make. He was the Son of God which probably gives him the right to upset as many people as he sees fit. I wouldn't argue with him, anymore than the great flood. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 20 2012 06:05:52 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 11:06:58 AM
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I think we're all sons and daughters of God. It's a certain Christian dogma that spins it in such a way to portray Jesus as the only Son.
Brothers and sisters. A giant extended family born from Father Heaven and Mother Earth. |
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Reaching out
