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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 02:50:43 AM
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Hi
I have been meditating for around 6 weeks now and am not sure if I’m doing it right or not. My main thing is that I’m a bit confused re the mantra in DM.
I have two main areas of concern.
I started off in a very clunky way, holding onto the mantra fiercely, with exact precision in an attempt to block out other thoughts. After reading lesson 366 I realise that I was on the wrong track, and stated to go with the flow a lot more. I let the mantra become fuzzy and even to fade out completely from time to time leaving me feeling very relaxed and quiet with apparently no thoughts and no mantra. These times only lasted a minute o so at a time after which I would pick up where I last remembered the mantra being.
Now I also read in another lesson that the sound “I AM” has a significance of its own and I’m wondering if I have wandered too far from this sound in my DM. When i start, Very quickly the mantra will often become a “YAM” sound repeated or even just a vibrating rhythm in my head with no clear idea of sound. It can even go anywhere in a variety of tempos and sounds and it moves very far away from the original “IAM” sound discussed. It bears little resemblance to "IAM" a lot of the time. This seems to take me deeper but now I am worried in case I have misunderstood what I should do re the mantra and am being too casual in letting it go so far away, even from time to time disappearing. Please help.
The second thing is that I read ( I believe in lesson 59 in the AYP book ) that the idea is to constantly be losing the mantra, going to thoughts, and then when remembering, coming back to the mantra. My worry is that, with the exception of the occasional and relatively rare “silences” I mentioned above, I never, ever lose the mantra. Even when my thoughts are all over the place, the mantra still is in the background and I am aware of it. I don’t know why this should be and am concerned that something is wrong because it is so prominent.
I’m quite new to this as you realise and am extremely keen to get the DM process right. I would really appreciate some help here.
Thanks very much
Willie
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 05:18:54 AM
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Sorry meant to add that often the sound of the mantra might come out as " EEE OM" and I recollect from a lesson that "om" has a particular significance and so I was a bit worried this might be throwing me off too
Willie |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 08:42:30 AM
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Willie,
Welcome to the AYP forums.
Everything you talk about is normal... perfectly normal. All I would suggest is, not to analyze your meditation.
This is fine:
quote:
I let the mantra become fuzzy and even to fade out completely from time to time leaving me feeling very relaxed and quiet with apparently no thoughts and no mantra. These times only lasted a minute o so at a time after which I would pick up where I last remembered the mantra being.
Don't let your mind convince you of anything else.
The main thing we want to do in meditation is let go the mind control, and the more we analyze, am I doing it right, am I losing the mantra, am i saying "i am", etc (all games the mind likes to play), the more the mind stays actively in place.
It is very very simple.
- We sit comfortably
- Close our eyes
- We watch our thoughts for a few seconds
- We start repeating "i am" in our mind (we dont care what it sounds like, if we ever realize we are saying banana instead of i am, we go back to i am, but we don't consciously worry about the pronunciation, if we consciously realize we are saying "EEE OM" we go back to "i am" at whatever level we can pick it up at... but we don't consciously monitor every "i am" we intone.)
- We realize we are in thoughts.. we go back to "i am"
- We realize we are never losing the "i am"..n that in itself is a thought, we go back to "I am".
- We realize we are in silence, we go back to the mantra.
So any time we are consciously aware we are doing anything but "i am"... we go back to "i am".
Once meditation becomes natural to you, you will get the nuances of many of those lessons. But for now, just get used to the practice (exactly like you were doing before the questions popped up) and get comfortable with going with the flow and getting the mind out of the way.
Hope this helps.
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 10:31:25 AM
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Hi Shanti and thanks very much for your help.
It would seem I am doing two things wrong:
1. I have been happily letting the mantra go awry and consciously allowing this to happen
2. I have actually been attempting to get to silence instead of "IAM"
I am a bit puzzled stil about the mantra pronunciation, though. I had thought it was correct to allow it to change. Is it the case that it should only change in tempo and clarity rather than pronunciation?
I am a bit of a stressy person and I tend to fret and worry about every little thing, so this forum is greatly appreciated to help me understand.
Willie |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 10:56:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by willie
I am a bit puzzled stil about the mantra pronunciation, though. I had thought it was correct to allow it to change. Is it the case that it should only change in tempo and clarity rather than pronunciation?
The pronunciation can and will change. The key is... if you are fretting over it... if you are using your mind to think "is this the right pronunciation?"... then go back to "i am". You may go back to "i am" for one repetition and then go back to the other pronunciation, as long as that is happening unconsciously that is fine, but if your mind, even for a second comes in to analyze, ignore it and go back to "i am" and let any changes that happen, happen organically, without conscious control, without effort.
Do you see the common thread... anything , just about anything that gets your mind analyzing... go back to the procedure. What happens with this is you let go, let go the mind control, and then stillness has a chance to guide you to do what you need and not what your mind thinks it needs. Then meditation will be guided by stillness, and it will become a habit of dropping the mind analysis, so the meditation session will be more on auto pilot than controlled by us... then it will become a case of "thy will be done" rather than "my will be done". |
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 11:12:31 AM
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Thanks Shanti once more. I appreciate your time.
Sorry if I'm being a bit slow here, but can I just make sure I have got it this time?
The pronunciation will change.
If the pronunciation changes and I notice it and start to fret I should go back to "IAM".
If the pronunciation changes but I'm not bothered by it should I just let it go or should I go back to "IAM"?
I have often heard it change but still relaxed with it and often it has just gone down to a hint of a vibration and I've just let it be there. Is this wrong? In other words should I have gone back to "IAM" in any of the circumstances I mention?
Again thanks for your patience. 
Willie |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 11:36:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by willie
The pronunciation will change.
If the pronunciation changes and I notice it and start to fret I should go back to "IAM".
Yes
quote:
Originally posted by willie
If the pronunciation changes but I'm not bothered by it should I just let it go or should I go back to "IAM"?
 ... go back to "i am"... if you even once consciously think, "the pronunciation has changed", go back to "i am". After 6 years of "i am". if someone asks me how do you pronounce "i am", my answer will be "no idea", because I don't consciously think of the "i am" pronunciation... but if I do, I go back to "i am".
The best example is brushing your teeth. It is such a habit, you do it without thinking... exactly like that, do meditation like you brush your teeth.
quote:
Originally posted by willie
I have often heard it change but still relaxed with it and often it has just gone down to a hint of a vibration and I've just let it be there. Is this wrong? In other words should I have gone back to "IAM" in any of the circumstances I mention?
All those things are wonderful. But the min you are aware that it has changed, go back to the procedure at whatever level you are at. So if you have gone to a hint of vibration and you realize you are there, from that level go back to whatever level of "i am" comes naturally. So not saying you sit up straight and start clear "i am" (although if that happens, that is fine too), go back to "i am" at that fuzzy level, but you are making an effort (even if it is a very slight shift) to go back to the procedure. You may go back to the vibration again after one conscious repetition of "i am", but as long as "you" are not aware of it, it is fine, when you are aware of it, go back to the procedure.
I promise you, it becomes so natural, that later you will not think about it. But to get there, we don't indulge anything, nothing, other than the procedure.
quote:
Originally posted by willie
Again thanks for your patience.
You are most welcome. Please ask away, not a problem at all. I had people drum this in my head for months before I got it ... but this is the best time to get it, when you are starting out, if you learn this now, if you learn now to not analyze, later all the practices will come really easily to you. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 12:05:31 PM
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Hi Willie:
Good pointers from Shanti.
It should also be pointed out that coming back to the mantra does not necessarily mean coming back to a clear pronunciation every time. The mantra can become very faint and fuzzy in the mind. In that case, when we realize we are off it, we can come back to the faint fuzzy feeling of the mantra where we left off. If we come back and the mantra wants to be a clear pronunciation (it can happen), then we go with that. Wherever we are in the mind, clear or faint, that is where we pick up the mantra. Clear pronunciation is not the key thing. The sense of what the mantra is in our present mental state, whatever that is, is what we come back to. We don't have to take the mental process anywhere else. We just continue wherever we are in the mind.
In the Secrets of Wilder novel, the process of the mantra refining (becoming fuzzy) is described with caps and italics, with the mantra going I AM, I Am, i am, i am ... fading naturally to faintness and unclear pronunciation like that. This is normal. When we come back to the mantra, we come back wherever we are, whether it be I AM or i am ... or to something that is so deep that it can't be spelled at all, just a faint feeling... That is why we call it "deep meditation."
One place on the spectrum is not better than another. We do not try for faintness with the mantra. We just let it happen whenever it does. We do not try for clear pronunciation. We just let it happen whenever it does. It is a natural process, and we cannot make it be one thing or another. It is our unique process of inner purification and opening that determines where we are with the mantra in the mind. We do not determine it, just as Shanti said. We pick up the mantra and let it go where it will. And wherever we are is where we ease back to it when we realize we are off it.
The guru is in you.
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 12:55:35 PM
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Thank you both Shanti and Yogani for your detailed replies. I am most grateful.
I have had the mantra become just a faint feeling a few times now. When this happened I just let it stay there and I suppose I must have been going off it because I recognised that that was what it felt like ( as you pointed out, Shanti, a thought in itself ) When this happens I am not quite clear what to do. Should I just recognise I have thought the thought about the mantra, and thus having come off it, easily go back to the faint feeling should I make an effort to return to a more clearly defined "IAM"?
This is the bit that is confusing me. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly but do you know what I mean?
Sorry. I'm finding this a bit difficult to grasp.
Willie
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 1:15:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by willie
I have had the mantra become just a faint feeling a few times now. When this happened I just let it stay there and I suppose I must have been going off it because I recognised that that was what it felt like (as you pointed out, Shanti, a thought in itself ) When this happens I am not quite clear what to do. Should I just recognise I have thought the thought about the mantra, and thus having come off it, easily go back to the faint feeling should I make an effort to return to a more clearly defined "IAM"?
Yes, return to the mantra as a faint feeling if that is where you naturally are with it in the mind. No effort to make it a clear pronunciation, or anything else. Favor it where it is. In time, this becomes very easy and natural. The clunky phase will pass. 
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 1:22:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by willie
I have had the mantra become just a faint feeling a few times now. When this happened I just let it stay there and I suppose I must have been going off it because I recognised that that was what it felt like ( as you pointed out, Shanti, a thought in itself ) When this happens I am not quite clear what to do. Should I just recognise I have thought the thought about the mantra, and thus having come off it, easily go back to the faint feeling should I make an effort to return to a more clearly defined "IAM"?
Come back to it at whatever level happens naturally. There may be days you will come back to it at a fuzzy level because you are in deep already, then that is fine... there may be days you are more awake and come back to it in a more clear level, and that is fine too. Whatever happens naturally. No forcing or trying to be where you are not.
Lets say you are asleep and dreaming and are suddenly awakened... and you are aware of the dream when you wake up. You then fall back asleep... depending on how awake you were, you may jump back into the dream vividly, or may fall back asleep and not go back to the dream. It's not like you are controlling that, it is happening naturally depending on your inner state that moment... like that, you go back to the mantra from where you are.. naturally. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 1:23:57 PM
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We cross posted.
Thanks Yogani. |
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 4:01:01 PM
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Thank you both so much for your time and help. As I said I get a bit stressed out and I really appreciate the kindness and encouragement very much indeed.
Willie |
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Darko
21 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2014 : 04:08:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
We realize we are in silence, we go back to the mantra.
Hello,
I have a problem with this description. As Willie already wrote it happens during DM that all thoughts including the mantra simply disappear. (which is Samadhi) For me in this state it is mostly not possible to go back to the mantra or any other thought. It feels like a "magnet" which holds me in silence and even trying to "escape" this silence by going back to the mantra is... well... not possible. And it would feel quite unnatural to force it. After some time when I realize that I have thoughts again, that the "silence magnet" is not there anymore I go back to the mantra.
And at the end of DM it happens usually that I enter so deep into samadhi that this naturally marks the end of the meditation. No mantra, no thoughts, just pure, silent and blissfull awareness. Usually I just have to enjoy this state for a while until thoughts or anything else is "possible" again.
So this sentence "We realize we are in silence, we go back to the mantra." simply does not work for me.
Please advice. Thanks.
Darko |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2014 : 08:05:10 AM
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Hi Darko:
If you "realize" you are in silence you are thinking, and if you are thinking you have the option to ease back to the mantra, albeit at a very refined level. This will take you even deeper.
Thoughts and silence can be there at the same time. If you choose to favor silence over the mantra, this will be favoring a thought other than the mantra, and that is no longer deep meditation. It will not go as deep as using the vehicle of the mantra, which brought you to that level of silence in the first place. We may feel we are deep in silence, but the thought of that isn't it.
The sense of strain you have about easing back to the mantra may be that you are going for a clear pronunciation. If you pick up the mantra at the level of silence you are at, it will not be a clear pronunciation. It will be very faint and fuzzy with no strain at all. Try that and see what happens. The mantra is a multi-dimensional vehicle with many levels of clarity. When we try to pick it up at a level we are not at, there can be some strain. Analysis of where we are at is often the cause of the strain and forcing a pronunciation. The process is very innocent. When we are deep and thoughts come up, that is the level we naturally favor the mantra at. There is no leaving the silence we are in. There is only riding the impulse of the mantra deeper.
If we are in silence and not thinking, well then, there will be no choice to make, will there? That is fine. And when we realize (think) anything, including "I am in stillness," time to ease back to the mantra at that level and transcend thinking again.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Darko
21 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2014 : 10:02:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If you "realize" you are in silence you are thinking, and if you are thinking you have the option to ease back to the mantra, albeit at a very refined level. This will take you even deeper.
Thanks Yogani! |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2014 : 09:50:35 AM
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| Thank you Darko for resumingbthis thread - I found very clear answers to very similar questions! |
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Confused as to mantra
