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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 3:50:44 PM
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| HathaTeacher, yes, that's true, it (the distorted view of bramacharya) is unfortunately pervasive throughout mainstream yoga. I also found it when I was studying with SRF. Mark Whitwell says the same thing about it that you mentioned from Lysebeth; he discusses it at some length in Yoga of Heart. Jenniferad, thanks for sharing your story. I was involved with theosophy and/or new age stuff for a while. In my experience they are heavily influenced by gnosticism - spirit is good, body is evil, we are supposed to escape from the physical. Your ex-church sounds slightly different but I would be surprised if they did not share that influence which, again, is all-pervasive in the new age movement. Interestingly the Hare Krishnas also teach that you shouldn't do anything about kundalini, as they along with some others believe that to do so is dangerous and counterproductive to spiritual development. (They also oppose asana and meditation?! [rolls eyes - HEY, IS THERE A ROLLIN EYE SMILIE?]). I'm happy for you that you experienced that awakening spontaneously. As I mentioned in the beginning of this thread, the teachers who actually provide clear, straightforward methods for working with kundalini AND integrating sex into the spiritual life seem to be few and far between. That's one reason I am so impressed with the work AYP is doing, to make that knowledge available to people. I agree with you, it's crazy that teachers/systems are ommitting or denying an essential God-given source of energy in spiritual development. I have long suspected that this has been done to take away our personal power and keep us dependent/obedient to the (male-dominated) religious institutions. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 4:24:26 PM
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quote:
To leave out the central aspect of human spiritual transformation is kind of a problem for an organization that claims to have a teaching that will lead a person to oneness with God.
i agree sexual aspect is a central aspect....Osho says:
"one's attainment to celibacy in this life is based on the experiences of deep coital union in previous lives and on nothing else"(From sex to superconsciouness)
quote:
when it came to sex and kundalini, there was no guidance available, other than to be celibate if not married and not engage in too much sex if married,
so true....we stay stuck! as if this aspect does not exist!
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We were also taught not to do anything about kundalini energy or to try and influence it, and my understanding was that if anything happened with kundalini it would happen naturally, and problems could be created if a person intentionally tried to awaken the kundalini.
TTC at the Sivananda centers also teach the same thing........but i perfectly understand their concern because many people just do not self pace so they end up hurting themselves...it is a tricky issue... |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 6:51:31 PM
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by the way - in my post above, I meant no disrespect to Swami Prabhupada. I am eternally grateful to him for bringing Krishna consciousness to America. Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, so sweet, can't get enough.  It's just my frustration with the mainstream approach in general (including ISKCON, SRF and nearly everybody else) in their denial of sexuality as a positive, indeed central, aspect of our spirituality as embodied beings. |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 8:38:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
TTC at the Sivananda centers also teach the same thing........but i perfectly understand their concern because many people just do not self pace so they end up hurting themselves...it is a tricky issue...
I agree, this is what concerns me also. Many are taught to totally shun and avoid sexuality because of the potential dangers, and although I whole heartedly believe embracing ones sexuality is a important process of being an integrated, healthy being. I think caution and balance in these matters is so important. Avoidance is not the answer yet rather that than have people hurt themselves.
The current neotantra movement is a clear example of how easily some people become misguided and about what Tantra is really about. Sadly, is something which is so easily abused. Respectfully this is my view of it.
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Edited by - Kahlia on Jul 19 2011 9:10:17 PM |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 01:17:01 AM
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Kahlia, I agree with your comment:
"The current neotantra movement is a clear example of how easily some people become misguided and about what Tantra is really about. Sadly, is something which is so easily abused."
But I think a large part of the reason that this is happening is because there is so little guidance being offered by the yoga tradition as a whole. People need to be instructed in "caution and balance." As you said, "avoidance is not the answer." |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 09:15:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Yep very true Hathateacher.... about how orthodox teachers regarded the left hand path
Andre Van Lysebeth was an excellent teacher too....
I remember reading his Yoga Self Taught way back in the 1970ies, really good and instructive, but I realized only later that he was an experienced Tantrist. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 09:47:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswariTTC at the Sivananda centers also teach the same thing........but i perfectly understand their concern because many people just do not self pace so they end up hurting themselves...it is a tricky issue...
It is tricky. Even mainstream zazen suggests you continue meditating when sexual thoughts pop up, until time has made them pass.
IMO., nothing wrong with a variety of schools offering different paths to different kinds of seekers. But, as soon as a school starts to plume themselves and to claim theirs is the only path, it makes a big warning sign.
I too understand their concern; large schools might face a large number of oddities among their students. But, because of the sheer size of the Sivananda movement, there have been even many Sivananda-inspired teachers like van Lysebeth, Satyananda, or even quite unknown ones, who never concealed the Tantric path. Now that everybody is online, it's much wiser to repeatedly stress self pacing instead, the way Yogani does, because Internet empowers the grassroot at the expense of formal authorities no matter their likes and dislikes. IMO., the safer and smoother the shift, the better for all parties. |
Edited by - HathaTeacher on Jul 20 2011 09:51:54 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 09:53:08 AM
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| Hatha...Andre was a tantrist but also a direct disciple of Swami Sivananda |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2011 : 01:15:09 AM
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| Reflecting on our conversation and going full circle with it: Since you were talking about danger, I want to address a potential danger of tantric practice for couples. Well, “danger” might be too strong of a word here, let’s say maybe “pitfall” or “something to avoid.” And that is, depending on another person – whether guru or spouse – for our Bliss or Connection. It is possible to get a sort of “contact high” meditating with somebody who has Bliss pouring off of them, or in moments of ecstatic sex, but obviously it can’t take the place of having a personal yoga practice. It’s all well and good that my partner experiences the Goddess in me, BUT he needs to find Her in himself, too. I know that we are not the only couple in this situation because I hear about it all the time, mostly yoginis wanting their husbands to learn yoga. I originally contacted AYP looking for a specific tantric technique. Let me share with you a little more about our journey together: We knew each other from singing at karaoke, and our first and only “date” was 6 years ago when he joined me for surfing and meditation at the beach. We were talking about spirituality and relationships. I told him I’d been “celibate” for most of 14 years, I’m not looking, I’m already in Love. He said, “I wish I could be in that Love.” I said, “You can, the desire itself is grace.” He joined me in meditation and I was impressed that he could sit perfectly still, quiet and focused for half an hour. We had dinner and then he wanted to come to my house and meet my animals. I said, “No, I’m not taking you home, we both know there’s way too much attraction here on many levels and I don’t want my life to become complicated.” He said, “Don’t worry, I only complicate my own life,” which turned out to be a big fat lie, but that’s ok. I ended up agreeing he could visit for a little while, which was a good thing because my El Camino broke down in a bad part of town on the way home and I didn’t have a cell phone and he called the tow truck for me. When we finally got home my horses, who are normally quite suspicious of strange men, immediately ran up and nuzzled him and licked his face and began following him around, and my very shy cat wanted him to hold her. We’ve been together ever since… Up until recently I’ve had kind of a detached, laissez faire attitude towards his spiritual practice; after all, as Kahlia and Maheswari have pointed out, you can’t make somebody do yoga, and if he wanted to kill himself with cigarettes and alcohol I couldn’t really stop him. When we met, my partner already had some energy training with a background in tai chi and aikido, and he was doing a kind of zen meditation intermittently. However, apparently the meditation was not “working” very well because it didn’t make a dent in his alcohol consumption; he was experiencing emptiness but not bliss. He had also been practicing some tantric sexual techniques without even knowing what they were. Our lovemaking has always been incredible and meditative, and it was tantric for me. This seemed fine for a while. More recently, as my own yoga has intensified, I’ve become less detached and wanted to share with him on a deeper level. Hence our conversation last Christmas Eve after Midnight Mass over a bottle of Murphy Goode cabernet sauvignon by the fireplace, what is tantra all about, what is the meaning and purpose, etc., resulting in our mutual conscious participation, which has been awesome! – and for which I came to AYP seeking information on technical details. However, like I said, it’s not a standalone practice, and I think I have finally convinced him that if he wants the Bliss and Love he will need to find It within himself by a daily yoga practice, not just from me by osmosis. He has been doing asana and meditation every day this week! So that is our story, and I know there are other people in similar situations. Sex is a central aspect of human life and spirituality, and kundalini awakening is a natural part of our evolution. These issues cannot be ignored, they must be addressed and education provided for everyone’s benefit, and AYP is doing a great job! Thanks again for the opportunity to share and for all your feedback. Namaste. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2011 : 02:48:32 AM
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quote:
let’s say maybe “pitfall” or “something to avoid.” And that is, depending on another person – whether guru or spouse – for our Bliss or Connection
enjoyed very much reading your post dear Jamie.....yes it is tricky |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2011 : 12:50:06 PM
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| Me too. Thanks for sharing. |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2011 : 9:40:25 PM
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So poignant your comment about seeking the Goddess in you but really needing to also find her in himself! I think this is something that can be easily forgotten in Tantra.. at times we can believe what we seek is outside of us, in our partner, but really it is in ones self. We are all reflections.
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Edited by - Kahlia on Jul 23 2011 08:43:50 AM |
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jenniferad
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2011 : 10:25:22 PM
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| Thank you for sharing, JamieRadha. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2011 : 04:05:32 AM
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Thank you Maheshwari for reminding. Both van Lysebeth and Satyananda were. I remember the Yoga S.T. program also followed a sequence from Sivananda's school in Rishikesh.
Kundalini Tantra says the level of risk is no different from crossing a busy street, and that daily asana and pranayma reduce it further; and, interestingly, risks haven't made people stop going to work, or to supermarkets...
JamieRadha, thanks for sharing your wonderful story, you made my day. I too have driven through life winding between the clinging/attachment ditch and the nonintensity ditch. From exploring the extremes, we gradually learn a sattvic balance to keep us on track, on the mat and off the mat.
(I don't remember quite in verbatim, but B.K.S.Y. had said sattva is not a destination, yet a useful vehicle.)
L. and L. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 12:01:47 AM
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| Just wanted to give you guys a little update: HathaTeacher, I ordered the Kundalini Tantra and Diana Richardson books. The former already arrived and it is a nice addition to my library; plenty of in-depth detailed discussion about the chakras, mudras, etc. the Richardson book looked like fun. Meanwhile the question which brought me to AYP seems to have become a moot point as we have apparently figured it out (thanks for all your input). Last weekend was great, although not much sleep. Now that Hawk has become accustomed to retaining his life essence, as well as doing more meditation and asana, and less drinking, he says he can really feel the difference in terms of his energy level AND it is visible; he looks 20 years younger than he did before this process. Interestingly, a friend of ours who has not seen him in a few weeks ran into us over the weekend and commented, "Hawk looks great! He seems much younger and his skin is glowing!" |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2011 : 02:04:35 AM
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Good to hear the practices worked.
My Anahata certainly got inspired after I read the Kundalini Tantra; I remember Satyananda himself spent several months per chakra on purification and opening.
All best! |
Edited by - HathaTeacher on Jul 28 2011 06:34:33 AM |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2011 : 6:46:26 PM
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Kundalini Tantra by whom?  |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2011 : 4:11:35 PM
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Markern,I am just curious.Have you master these methods you recommand yourself?
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 04:56:42 AM
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| Update: Now that my partner has become accustomed to conserving his life energy, and is experiencing vajroli during tantra, he says he feels great! Has cut way back on the drinking, is meditating more, and interestingly, has embarked on a big art project where he is creating sculptures which will be put on display at City Arts Cooperative (where I teach yoga). He's gotten really motivated and creative. I guess all that generative energy had to manifest somehow! |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 06:58:14 AM
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| excellent news...good for u both |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 6:25:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JamieRadha
I guess all that generative energy had to manifest somehow!
Wow |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2011 : 12:03:43 AM
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| Update: Our tantra is going REALLY WELL! While we were spending the week with my teacher Mark a month ago, one night my partner said everything totally clicked or fell into place for him in terms of vajroli, the energy flow, etc. I said, "I thought you figured it out already?" and he said, "No, not like this - it wasn't totally clear until now!" We had not asked about it or raised the issue at all, but Mark answered questions and helped with things that we never asked or mentioned... Now that my partner has become accustomed to preorgasmic sex and conserving his prana, he says he feels great and he has lots of energy. And most importantly, he promised Mark he would do his daily yoga practice and thus far has kept his promise! So we are quite happy. Oh by the way, with regard to the concern that somebody raised (I don't remember what thread it was) as to whether moving the energy into higher chakras might result in sexual dysfunction, for us it has been just the opposite. It keeps getting better and better. |
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Nataraja
11 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2011 : 03:47:10 AM
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| When polar opposite charges or energies come together,the result is(often) an explosion,bio-chemical,energetic.... |
Edited by - Nataraja on Oct 01 2011 04:11:36 AM |
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