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escapado

Germany
88 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  11:34:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
quote:
Osho - Transcendental meditation is neither transcendental nor meditation. But still what he is doing is good. What he is teaching in the name of meditation is only an ancient method of chanting. If you chant any word or any mantra continuously inside the mind, other thoughts stop because they don't have any space. And this continuous chanting is a certain device of auto-hypnosis; it is not meditation. It does not lead you to any spiritual enlightenment, but it certainly gives you a good feeling of wellbeing and health. You will feel refreshed -- just as you feel refreshed after a good shower; but a shower is not a transcendental meditation.

So there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. It cannot harm anybody. He is harmless, but he is misdirected. He is giving a toy which is not the real thing. If people enjoy toys -- and many people enjoy toys -- I have nothing against them. If they are happy, that's perfectly good.

But one thing I want to make clear: it is not meditation. It is just a mental trick which can also be done by auto-hypnosis, looking just at one thing continuously without blinking your eyes, you will fall into a sleep and that sleep will be deeper than your ordinary sleep. Certainly it will give you a feeling of rejuvenation, of well-being.

So it is something that should be part of gymnasium programs. It has nothing religious in it, nothing spiritual in it, but it is a good exercise. People who are doing physical exercise in gymnasiums should learn transcendental meditation; after their exercise for fifteen or twenty minutes they can relax, and it will help their bodies, but not their beings.


Huh? Can somebody who is a little more advanced eplain this to me in any way?

ps. If this is the wrong forum I'm sorry - I didn't know where to post it

AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  11:49:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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maheswari

Lebanon
2520 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  1:24:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
hi escapado
check the following...also from Osho...
http://www.deeshan.com/osho.htm
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escapado

Germany
88 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  1:35:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
once again he says that repetition of mantra is not meditation
Well I know that meditation is none of this here but I always saw mantra meditation (or DM in that case) as a way of detaching from the things (mind) while he is clearly speaking out against it.
Does he only make a distinction between practicing meditation and meditation (witnessing) itself?
From Osho's point of view DM shouldn't be called Deep Meditation but Mantra Repetition and is as useful for enlightenment as TM which he declares as useless... why?
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maheswari

Lebanon
2520 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  2:11:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
DM... create inner silence and witnessing...it is based a direct personal experience...

vedanta teachers also talk about not using any mantra and recommend only the following: BE.

this is possible only for mature souls...the majority needs more practical tools and mantras are one of them
it is like climbing a ladder...to reach the roof you should pass by all the steps....
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sharon_k

USA
8 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  4:16:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Mantras are not that simple.

- They are not only about suppressing thoughts/reducing random thoughts/concentration/attain calm abiding i.e. techniques for Shamata.
- They are not merely techniques for attaining trance states.

These are very minor and only beginner aspects of mantric science. Mantras are all about Deity Yoga or the Vehicle of Archetypal energy. Hence the Buddhists call it Mantrayana - the vehicle of the mantra. It's effect depends on how you use it, whether as a disjoint, isolated element, or a part of a bigger scheme such as Kashmiri Shaivism, Shrividya, Vajrayana, Siddhanta Shaiva and so on. Each of these complete systems have specific uses for mantra and their usage is much beyond attaining shamata. Here is an article by my teacher on more about mantras.

Edited by - sharon_k on Jul 07 2011 4:56:46 PM
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yogesh

USA
153 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  6:22:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I would not pay too much attention to what Osho says about meditation and yoga. IMO he spoke on things (yes very attractive words at times, but other times he showed himself as a complete narcissist.

He spoke to attract attention to the techniques that he had invented that he insisted were specifically designed by him for modern man...

I don't buy it sorry

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jenniferad

47 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  8:22:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi escapado,

Thanks for your question because I have wondered myself about meditation and hypnosis. I found this topic from the forum regarding hypnosis and meditation, and in it there is a link in it to another related topic.

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=7959#7959

Personally, I don't find Osho's logic convincing. First of all, even if meditation is simply self-hypnosis, so what? How does he define what is spiritual and what isn't? Isn't everything spiritual? Everything we do has a spiritual effect, whether we are in a gymnasium or a church or an ashram. How is my body separate from my being anyway?

Jennifer
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escapado

Germany
88 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2011 :  8:28:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your answers, they were both inspiring to me! but how do all these facts stand against what osho said?

ps a little bit off-topic: today i realized that my hands and arms feel (in a comfortable and relaxing way) numb (like they're connected to each other / one arm) during my session because they get charged in my pranayama session and while i was practising i am i noticed that the mantra was outside of the body. to be acribic: i 'saw' it coming out of where i think is the third eye, went straight down to my arms and 'split' to the left and right arm.

we dont want this for our practise, or shall i just let it go wherever it's going even if its outside of the body? does it naturally go where the 'electricity' is the 'strongest'/'most'?

what always felt like coming back to 'it' is connected with a subtle feeling in the crown but i 'rebel' against it bc i feel/think that it's wrong - shouldnt coming back be more subtle than a subtle energy-motion? should i just come back to i am whatevr it does? help :/
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boris

Norway
68 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  05:15:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit boris's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Master Nan Huai Chin which is one of the few living recognized ENLIGHTENENED masters recomand mantra meditation as one of the best methods in his book:
Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation
Here some info on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Huai-Chin
He is also the teacher of William Bodri who has Meditationexpert.com
It is from the same place the white skeleton meditation i posted earlier comes from.(A very special meditation)
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woosa

United Kingdom
382 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  07:18:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi escapado

With regards to what Osho said: it's just another system he believed that worked. I haven't experimented with it, but if you feel drawn to it then by all means try it. However, I can tell you that AYP's DM is the most effective practice I have tried!

Just treat the sensations you experience as 'scenery', and gently come back to the mantra.

If you start interacting with sensations etc it only means one thing: you are not meditating!

Take care


Edited by - woosa on Jul 08 2011 07:44:21 AM
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escapado

Germany
88 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  08:27:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I love ayp and I'm not gonna quit it like that I just wondered WHY Osho would say that about Mantra Meditation and if there's some true point about it or so.

anyway thanks everybody
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  12:55:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with the above posters; it's Osho's narcissism. If AYP was based on self-hypnosis we wouldn't be getting such lasting results by so many people. A lot of people don't respond to hypnosis.
Hypnosis is getting into a gullible state, then implanting information. Deep meditation does neither of those things.
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wakeupneo

USA
171 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  8:24:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit wakeupneo's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Can see where Osho is going with this...

Meditation is transcending the mediator. How can the mediator be transcended if it is being crystallized by doing(mantra repetition)?

Instead of repeating mantra, why not abide as the silence out of which the mantra appears.

But....

The vast majority of aspirants are unable to just BE or abide in pure consciousness...

Look at the mantra as a gateway. Keep repeating the mantra, in time the gap between the mantra will lengthen, in time the mantra will become less frequent.

Also, there is a certain vibration quality which facilitates self-realization.

My experience has been that the mantra is leading to silence. Identity is shifting to silence, the background is coming to the foreground. In time the mantra will become more transparent and silence will prevail and become natural. If the mantra appears wonderful, if absorbed inside oblivious to any doing, wonderful...

Keep at it... it works. It's worked on my end and with plenty of others on this board.

There are plenty of gurus and spiritual teachers who reached supreme peace via mantra. In fact, it might be the most common means...

j
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  8:44:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"Can see where Osho is going with this...

Meditation is transcending the mediator. How can the mediator be transcended if it is being crystallized by doing(mantra repetition)?"

Assuming you meant "meditator", if that's what Osho meant it isn't right. In the writing of Carlos Castaneda the sorcerer teaches "not doing". They are actions done by the body and mind, but they are designed specifically to not add anything to the illusion of who we are. In one lesson he has his apprentice slowly draw a circle in the dirt around the cabin, and keep going making it into a spiral.
When we do repeated actions that seem to have no meaning, the ego loses interest.

The longer you do this, and the more meaningless the actions are, the more you disconnect from the mundane world. Then add in the vibrational characteristics of a mantra - and voila!

You can experiment with this concept - try doing anything repeatedly that has absolutely no purpose or meaning and see how it makes you feel. This does not put you in a vulnerable hypnotic state at all.

Now try "doing nothing"; just sit there and don't move and don't think. You will find much more manifestations of the mind.

Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 08 2011 9:01:37 PM
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wakeupneo

USA
171 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  9:31:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit wakeupneo's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish

"Can see where Osho is going with this...

Meditation is transcending the mediator. How can the mediator be transcended if it is being crystallized by doing(mantra repetition)?"

Assuming you meant "meditator", if that's what Osho meant it isn't right. In the writing of Carlos Castaneda the sorcerer teaches "not doing". They are actions done by the body and mind, but they are designed specifically to not add anything to the illusion of who we are. In one lesson he has his apprentice slowly draw a circle in the dirt around the cabin, and keep going making it into a spiral.
When we do repeated actions that seem to have no meaning, the ego loses interest.

The longer you do this, and the more meaningless the actions are, the more you disconnect from the mundane world. Then add in the vibrational characteristics of a mantra - and voila!

You can experiment with this concept - try doing anything repeatedly that has absolutely no purpose or meaning and see how it makes you feel. This does not put you in a vulnerable hypnotic state at all.

Now try "doing nothing"; just sit there and don't move and don't think. You will find much more manifestations of the mind.



Ether,

Get where your coming from. Just a different perspective. Osho is coming from a purist(for lack of a better word) point of view. This is the way Zen and Advaita teach.

These mentioned methods, while might be the most direct, are also the steepest, and most difficult to grasp.

AYP teaches a cultivation and a systematic approach. Rare is the individual who after self-inquiry will recognize his true nature and be able to abide as that effortlessly. The mind needs to be cultivated and made fertile for the overwhelming majority before it can be impregnated with the knowledge of the Self.

Seen way too many advaita satsang goers who after years have not transformed in the least bit, in fact most seem more frustrated now than before they ever started seeking.

In doing repetition(whether mantra or drawing lines) it is a break from the constant self-referral of "me" and "my" story. In this break there can be a disassociation from the relative(me, i, self).

You break the constant stream of thought about "me" with something else mundane not relating to the story of "me".




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Tibetan_Ice

Canada
758 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2011 :  11:04:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
I think Osho was jealous of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the TM movement.

link: http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-o...as-chanting/

quote:

1.Many chanters of mantras fall asleep — hence the use of Transcendental Meditation for people who suffer from sleeplessness, hence its appeal in America. Insomnia has become a normal thing. The more insomnia is there, the more will be the appeal of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, because people need some tranquilizers. A mantra is a prefect tranquilizer, but that is not its real use. There is nothing wrong in it — if it gives you good sleep, good, but that is not its real use.



If you examine what Osho said here, it is clear that he respects mantras:
link: http://www.facebook.com/notes/osho-...436670705807

quote:

There is no word in English to translate mantra. It means a sacred word, not of any use in the day-to-day life experiences, but only significant when you go beyond this visible world and enter into the invisible consciousness. A mantra is a secret key. It opens the door to the ultimate.



Here are some more of Osho's writings about mantra and what he is saying is that the mantra is a powerful tool...

link: http://www.osho.com/library/online-...752-1a7.aspx

quote:

When you chant a mantra, all the energy used in your thoughts is released to flow into the mantra. Only the mantra remains in your mind; all other avenues of thought are closed, all other outlets for your mental energy are shut off; there is nowhere else for it to flow. Normally when you are thinking your energy flows in countless different currents; one thought travels north, another south, another east, another west. When you think, you travel in many different directions. You are not one, you are not a unity; you are divided. But when you chant a mantra, all the energy begins to flow in one direction.

If we use a lens to make the rays of the sun converge, fire can be created. The fire is hidden in the sunrays, but when they are separate, at the most some heat can be created, not fire. It is when they are concentrated together that the fire appears. In just the same way there is a great fire hidden in your mind, but as long as the rays of the mind are separate there is only a little heat. Mantra is a method to concentrate the rays of your mind together. The moment this happens great heat, a tremendous amount of energy is created.

If you consistently practice a mantra, many phenomena relating to energy and power will begin to happen in your life, and they will provide great nourishment to your ego. Whatever you predict will come true, whatever you describe will happen exactly as you have said; if you curse it will come to pass; if you grant a wish it will come true, because so much energy and power is concentrated in you that your statements begin to materialize. The only reason for their materialization is that when a person can invest great power in the things he says, his words enter directly into the unconscious of the listener – the arrow flies straight to the other’s heart. And when anything reaches to the heart it starts taking effect.

Suppose you say to someone, “Tomorrow morning you will fall sick,” and suppose, in saying this, it is the only thing in you – a mantra; there is nothing else, no other line of thought, no distraction…. If this sentence, “Tomorrow morning you will fall sick,” becomes your mantra, your mind totally full with it, then the moment you say this to someone your words will strike the core of his heart. Now he will be unable to sleep the whole night; he has seen your eyes, heard the tone of your voice, caught your gesture, and his mind is so impressed that there is no way for him to avoid what you have said to him. His mind will keep coming back to this mantra. In his dreams that night he will see you and hear your words, and although his mind will try to argue that nothing is going to happen – “Why fear this man? Nothing is going to happen!” – yet some force will drive him. He is repeating the mantra – your mantra – even in his fighting it. He is bound to fall sick by the morning! Half this sickness is your creation, and half his own.

From Osho, Nowhere To Go But In, Chapter 6



So, the opposing views that Osho has written leads me to believe that the first post on this thread is biased, and probably directed at TM.

Funny, I found this on mantras in Gurudeva's writings. Seems Osho wasn't the only person with an axe to grind with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.. And, in here Gurudeva also states that mantras can produce enlightenment..

link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-23.html
quote:

There is an idea that there is a special mantra for each person, and that a mantra should be secret. It has been my experience that gurus who are amassing wealth from unsuspecting Americans and Europeans will give all kinds of mantras. And they will be couched in a format that is sellable, like packaged merchandise. They will be made secret. But none of the traditional mantras that produce true realization and are lauded and acclaimed are secret. They are well known by every Hindu in the world.


The above link points to a chapter in "Merging with Shiva" called "The Yoga of Incantation", which examines the use of mantras.

If you'd like to read more about mantras, here is another link from the same source:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...anto-09.html

And, if you think about it, mantra is prayer and we all know the power of prayer..

Like I have said before, reading Osho is like eating out of a snack tray without first removing the toothpicks!

In my own discovery, whenever you think or chant a mantra, it causes prana or chi to be released from the lower tan tien (below the naval). This prana will empower whatever you focus your attention on, be it by thought, sound or intention..

:)
TI




Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 08 2011 11:23:53 PM
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Holy

796 Posts

Posted - Jul 09 2011 :  11:22:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Holy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear escapado,

that topic was discussed in some other threads as well some time ago:

one is here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....antra,yogani

another one here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....antra,yogani

Yogani is participating in both. His answer in short: Osho had no experience with mantra meditation =P

Sure, dhyan is a state of happening. You are you and what happens happens.

Mantra meditation is a little bit different as it is a more dynamic version of dharana - dyhan - samadhi. That is the reason why Osho's words are true and false at the same time =P
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BuddhiHermit

United Kingdom
84 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2011 :  3:56:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit BuddhiHermit's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Osho was extremely complex
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wakeupneo

USA
171 Posts

Posted - Jul 14 2011 :  8:02:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit wakeupneo's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit

Osho was extremely complex



Don't think it's that Osho was complex but rather that the mind makes tings complex. In fact the mind insists that things be complex, hence truth remains always hidden behind the transparent shroud of its utter simplicity.

However Osho's scope of teaching was perhaps the broadest in recorded human history.

j
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maheswari

Lebanon
2520 Posts

Posted - Jul 15 2011 :  08:46:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
nop Osho was not complex...on the contrary he was poiting out our complexes
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wakeupneo

USA
171 Posts

Posted - Jul 17 2011 :  8:21:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit wakeupneo's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"After a hundred years people will be perfectly able to understand why I was misunderstood - because I am the beginning of the mystical, the irrational. I am a discontinuity with the past. The past cannot understand me; only the future will understand."
Osho
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Christi

United Kingdom
4514 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2011 :  5:45:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Escapado,

Osho isn't the only person who has said that the constant repetition of a mantra isn't a very useful practice. Yogani has also said it. So has Krishnamurti.

The constant repetition of a mantra is called mantra japa. Deep Meditation is not mantra japa, and neither is TM. Osho obviously didn't practice TM! If you read the instructions for Deep Meditation you can see that it is a lot more subtle and far reaching than simply the constant repetition of a mantra. It is a meditation practice using a mantra as an object, whilst simultaneously letting that object dissolve into silence.

Christi
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yogesh

USA
153 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2011 :  6:54:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Who cares what Osho says about mantra meditation? He criticized pretty much every technique and tradition outside his own that he made up...


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JosephUK

United Kingdom
212 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2011 :  11:35:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
oh, so thats how it is.

i'm just starting to get it.

the mantra no only gets faint and fuzzy but gets slower.

in my frustrated state i was saying it more often to get more effect (I've read about results oriente practice being bad).

i've had a mantra slowing before, the Maranath mantra.

sometimes i think i'm genuinely stupid

Joe

p.s. i was considering a while ago delving into Oshos prolific teaching but decided against it. perhaps wise

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BuddhiHermit

United Kingdom
84 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2011 :  5:59:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit BuddhiHermit's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Like most Masters, Osho responded to the questioner first, and the question second.

For some people mantra is bad, for some, it's good.
He must have seen it was bad for the questioner and answered accordingly, regardless of the fact that others may have been listening.

As everything he said was recorded and transcribed, it is assumed that his words can be read like a one-size-fits-all bible, but this only leads to frustration and contradiction, because attaining Truth requires an individual approach.

On another occasion he would have answered differently - because the context was different.

Always discover the context first, and read the whole story, not excerpts.

Buddhist & Yogic stories of masters chasing off or insulting students abound, and we accept that this was done in the best long term interests of the student.

Both Krishnamurti's were good at doing this as well.

Namaste

Edited by - BuddhiHermit on Aug 04 2011 6:06:05 PM
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