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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 1:25:42 PM
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I haven't quite given up on 'showing you the light' about this aspect of depression, if I may speak presumptiosly. 
Anthem said:
To me these external factors are all simply attaching to or emphasizing whatever is already there on the inside of a person’s mind (no matter how latent or subtle) and magnifying it and bringing to the surface. To me this is why some are impacted by these things and others are not.
I really would suggest a closer look at this: Before Sally and Mary take the pill Sally is happier, more optimistic and more bright-eyed than Mary.
When Sally gets depressed because she goes on the pill and Mary not, you would seem to be saying that there was some negativity 'there' in Sally and not in Mary which the pill is bringing out. What in earth would it have been, if Sally was happier than Mary before they went on the pill???
This is not hypothetical. I personally know of a very happy and positive woman who got depressed when she went on the pill and had to stop it. And other not-so-happy, not-so-positive women who had no such problem.
There is indeed something there in Sally not in Mary, and that is that, by whatever mechanism, Sally's body cannot tolerate the pill and responds with a depression of mood. This could easily be some very technical mechanism. Perhaps it disturbs some deep neurological mechanisms of sleep. Perhaps the effect is like a permanent PMS (just guessing).
Did it occur to you that these simple differences in body function might be the reason why one person might not have mood problems with the pill and the other not, rather than underlying differences in perspective? Differences that have no more 'meaning' or psychology behind them than say a food intolerance or allergy?
Likewise for S.A.D., post-partum depression and so on. We might find that Mary is susceptible to S.A.D. and Sally not -- the reverse of the relationship regarding the pill, where you might have attributed Sally's problems with the pill to be some 'negativity' that Mary does not have.
But one thing that has come out of research on S.A.D. over the years is that it seems that some people have a sleep-cycle (circadian rhythm) that is more heavily dependent on sunlight to keep it in order. These people can get S.A.D. This is probably genetically determined. Without the sunlight, their body gets all confused about night and day and their sleeping function and waking function gets all messed up, and they get depressed.
The reason that this happens to one person and not another, is not that one person has latent negative thoughts that the other does not -- it is because one person's sleep cycle is messed up by the lack of sunlight and the other's is not. And it probably goes down to some extremely technical and arcane mechanism in the body clock. Most peoples body clocks are more robust and do not get confused in this way, and they do not get S.A.D., while other's do and they get S.A.D. Perspectives and thoughts are not involved in the primary mechanism.
Noone can be in a good healthy mood when their sleep is destroyed. No-one. You take those drugs I mention and your serotonin levels will plummet and your sleep will be destroyed and your mood will be destroyed. You will be depressed. You can deny it, but it is true.
Maybe I shouldn't be trying to push people out of their flawed models when they don't want it, I don't know. But I like to make a good case for other people reading if other people are holding the same mistakes. Because I believe it has importance.
You seem to be holding onto something like a 'hermetic' view of the mind and its moods, where it is believed to have a complete potential independence from 'the world' and the state of the body. This was a mistake many of the ancient greeks had, and Descartes too. I believe this mistake is very rare in 'the East' and it is certainly not part of the Yoga tradition. Modern Science, the mental health professions, and experimentation can decisively prove that mistaken.
That is, a person who can keep a good mood regardless of organic 'external' factors (such as complete destruction of their sleep), will never be found. It is a mythical person.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 28 2006 6:51:39 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 1:38:40 PM
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P.S. For spiritual reasons also, I would not recommend a belief in that kind of independence of the mind from the body and the world.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 3:56:34 PM
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i think chemical stuff and inner emotional stuff are all interrelated. I had a girlfriend years ago who used to flip out about once a year. Sometimes we put her in the mental hospital, and sometimes it wasn't so bad. Then one year they gave her lithium and it cleared up. She's been on lithium ever since as far as I know.
But that doesn't mean she had a lithium deficiency. There was some sort of chemical imbalance inside that was put back in balance by the lithium. I think the imbalance was caused by thought patterns and energy imbalances. She used to be fanatically into god and the bible and praying.
Then when she flipped out she thought she was the cause of all evil. She had christian friends running a commune in another state and went there where they prayed over her, layed hands on her, annointed her etc. for weeks. But she wouldn't eat anything. I flew down and got her out of there before she died. Her doctor said she was within two weeks of dying by starvation, and put
her on an IntraVeinous drip for nourishment. He put her in the mental hospital, and that's when they eventually tried the lithium.
Funny thing is, when she was well she was very intelligent, balanced, and positive thinking.
I could see no negative patterns at all other than her fanatical bible reading. We lived together and when she talked it wasn't fanatical at all, it was just everyday talking.
When Jehova's witnesses came to the door she would offer to talk with them if they left the bible in the car and didn't quote any verses! Her thinking was so level headed that she had clients whom she did counseling for. She didn't meditate except for prolonged praying, but I suspect AYP could have helped because there was probably prana flow problems, and a lot
of fear. As it was though, the chemical helped. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 28 2006 3:58:54 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2006 : 12:32:37 AM
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Hi David,
I never suggested there is independence between the body, mind and world. On the contrary I think we all agree that there is complete interdependence. The world in any form reacts differently within each one of us as you point out in your examples above.
Every human being is unique, different energy blockages in the body making for different physical variables too infinite to predict. One has more of this chemical, another less etc. does the physical impingement of certain muscles on nerves prevent the flow of blood, oxygen and energy to certain glands yielding in more or less of various hormones etc. in the body affecting thoughts and emotions? I am sure we all agree they do and that it is all inter-related. Do certain thoughts we have affect the production of chemicals like serotonin in the brain or other autonomic nervous system functioning, modern science would suggest that they do.
Yogic lore is full of examples of allegedly enlightened yogis who drink this or that poison and remain unaffected or are unaffected by many aspects of the world like, oxygen, sleep, food deprivation, living on sunlight or overcoming many accepted limitations of physical reality. Is it true? I personally have never seen it and modern science has yet to prove it, but does that mean that we can say with all certainty that it does not exist?
Science is yet to prove a lot of things in life that we know exist. One has to look no further than the world of quantum mechanics and the paradox of wave-particle duality to see the limitations of modern science. Many used to say with certainty that the world was flat or that or that the universe would expand and then eventually contract. Science is not the final arbiter of truth though it is certainly a much clearer lense to look through then what the world has used before.
Is a person wrong because they hold one perspective or another or believe in something you do not? Nobody can say with absolute certainty.
There are no absolutes.
Thank you for "trying to show me the light" but as I mentioned above let us agree to disagree. Enough discussion on this for me, time to move on to more interesting things like AYP and our collective spiritual paths!
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2006 : 10:40:55 AM
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Anthem said:
Thank you for "trying to show me the light" but as I mentioned above let us agree to disagree. Enough discussion on this for me, time to move on to more interesting things like AYP and our collective spiritual paths!
Fair enough! Anyway, as I was saying, what I was writing was for other people too.
Your view seems a lit milder now than it did.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 03 2006 11:25:12 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2006 : 11:22:36 AM
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I should say a little maybe about why I went through all that stuff with Anthem.
One of the reasons why I am highly resistant to inadequate (or overly-generalized, or poorly worded) models of depression is because I know the kind of traps they create for depressed people because I was caught in such traps myself.
When people talk about the causes and cures of these illnesses, whereas they may be well-meaning, they have to be very careful what they say if they don't want to cause potential trouble for depressed people, either directly, or through those who deal with them. A lot can hang on phrasing and wording.
A notion like 'Depression is a function of depressed thoughts' is very risky because it will lead people to believe that they can fix depression by merely fixing or eliminating depressed thoughts. But whereas eliminating depressed thoughts may help, it may not at all be enough, or even be the way to approach the problem.
'Where else does depression come from but within?' I see as a potential disaster, likely to indicate to a depressed person that they can always come out of depression by some willful change of perspective. And that would be one of the most common and destructive misunderstandings of the nature of depression.
>> To me [ some internal difference in perspective ] is why some are impacted by these things and others are not.
Obviously, this is destructive in its own way, because the disparate impact of stressors may be domonstrably merely biological and have nothing to do with perspective. A person with S.A.D. is not served or treated well by the implication that it is their perspective which is the cause of their illness. The same is certainly true of a woman who suffers genuine post-partum depression. And it may well also be true for most cases of depression occurring in bipolar disorder.
To someone watching, it might look as if I, and maybe Jim too, are merely being sticklers, or being cantankerous or argumentative, picking at phrases or wording. But there is a lot more to it than that. We may be coming into coming into town shooting pistols, but it does not mean we are the bad guys. We are after some gansters in black hats, in the form of what we see as risky popular and easily-reached ideas about depression.
It's much more a case that I (or we) know that inadequate models, or even inadequate wording, in the domain of depression and its causes and cures, hold serious risks for the sufferers.
So whereas I may look cantankerous and presumptious, it may be more a case of someone who knows, simply pushing back against some risky stuff being said by someone who does not know.
It may indeed be unpleasant to have ones words and phrases picked on and challenged. But to avoid that, I would suggest that people who admit that they do not know much at all about this complex and sometimes grave illness, to simply steer clear of making publicly-accessible and maybe poorly-worded generalizations about it and its etiology and cures.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 03 2006 5:17:55 PM |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2006 : 4:54:03 PM
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Hello everyone - Alvin especially! Yes, suffering is part of our human condition, which we all have experienced to greater or lesser degrees. I think I know whereof you speak from very painful events in my life including the death of my mother by firing squad, and later the early death of my daughter from cancer. But the Buddha pointed the way out of suffering, and many other teachers as well. Just recently, regarding loneliness, I ran across this quote:
"The most profound state of innocence is touched within an immaculate sense of aloneness. Once this aloneness arises, freedom blossoms. 'I' instantly dissolved as it interfaced with, gazed into, the unknown. Such wonder! Such liberation!"
Many loving voices here have offered good suggestions, to which I would only add that developing awareness of 'who it is' that suffers can be very liberating. I have my own personal way of immersing this body in such intense bliss that everything else falls away, but I've have posted about this elsewhere in these topics and won't 'toot my horn' here.
With love and much empathy for all who suffer
Ramon
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maya_1347
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 11:32:42 AM
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How are you Alvin now? I am late for this posting but ...
Now you want to live a bigger life than before which is amazing! That is why you have reached the idea of changing things in your life to make if more fulfilling. Congratulation!
There were times in my life that I have been awfully down and depressed the way I was not able to cry. I would envy whoever had tears. I am so happy that you can express your feeling. When you take stairs the shakiest part is between the steps you are taking. When you are in the plateau every thing is the same and nothing happens there is no problem.
It is amazing how much data have posted for you.
It is hard to understand where you are coming form since I am not in that geographical place. I can share with you my experience from my practices. I was living in an environment that transcendental meditation was illegal – against religion and government could put us on jail. When I was getting to a group practice I was not sure I could make it home. It was very hard I did it as much as it was possible.
As we know “Guru is in you”, the light is within you.
Physical activity any kind changes the biochemical in your body. When I was feeling down/isolated I used to make a group and go mountain climbing, learning different dances, and once I found just for two hours working in a shelter was healing my spirit.
I also found walking a distance for one or two hours was helpful to me too.
Again I do not know what are you capable to do legally, physically, and mentally, listen to your heart/body and try things that would facilitate this transition. Yes supplements by all means would work wonderful.
To attract the people you want you might be able to create those groups yourself.
Putting ads for book reading club (mainly spiritually – Yogani’s book) and volunteering in a youth club.
I truly believe you have massive knowledge in different areas that would be life changing for many other people to learn. You can offer different classes even as pro bona.
Again these are just my suggestions and see how much they fit your life (legally, physically, mentally, environmental,…)
You are one of God’s masterpieces and definitely there is a life mission for you. Just let it happen and trust life. Alvin now you know everybody loves you here!
Love and light
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 8:09:28 PM
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Let me put my views on depression versus meditation aspect.
I especially found doing meditation in emotionally disturbed situations can make it very difficult for that short period of time. But in the long run meditation will do good and make us more effective in dealing with such situations. Especially when you are trying to forget painful memories meditation might appear to bring them back. But I feel this is because we are not following the procedure correctly and trying to restrict the thoughts and thus end up giving them more power.
I also agree with many here that meditation can be very hard to do in emotionally disturbed situations in which cases I dont mind stopping it after 10-15 mins. I feel deep meditation is a regular practice which is making us strong from inside
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2015 : 06:21:40 AM
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To Jim and his Karma,
Do you know the name of the chest opening asana you are describing in this thread? My Iyengar teacher has taught us one that is similar, but I don't know it's name. We begin on our backs, raise the pelvis, and place a block under the sacrum. Reach down to the mat near the heels, and pull the mat to move the shoulders toward the feet, pulling the chest open. I feel a strong chest opening in this asana, but I don't feel the progressive removal of blockages you describe.
I wonder if it is really the same asana. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2015 : 3:59:11 PM
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Let me leave aside the question of "is it an asana?". Everything's an asana, there are often different names for the same asana, and it's a whole sticky wicket. The exercise you're doing with block at the sacrum is not formally called an asana in Iyengar yoga, but it can be seen as an assisted form of a couple different asanas. None of that's particularly important unless you're an academic.
But that's not the move, no. I'm talking about a block just beneath the bottom edges of the shoulder blades. I was quite clear and specific on that, you may want to re-read. The sacrum block is not deemed a chest-opener. This is. And your Iyengar teacher can definitely assist you with it.
As for "removal of blockage", I'd suggest to you that that's not a process you can directly measure or observe in the moment, and you will find yourself distracted, dead-ended, and otherwise detoured if you proceed with that presumption. As you know if you've (carefully) read the AYP lessons, Yogani suggests observing one's experience in everyday life in order to gauge (and self-pace) progress with practices. That's a gauge with a reasonably stationary background. But while you choose to launch sadhana, and you choose to maintain sadhana, sadhana is not your process; don't assume yourself to be an objective external observer. To quote an old paper towel commercial, you're soaking in it.
I did, however, make the point that any negative sensations you feel in these "opening" exercises or poses is just the result of internal blocks. The sensation can be interpreted as "painful", but that's not really it. Have faith and relax/melt into the opening! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jan 01 2015 4:11:31 PM |
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