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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 03:42:52 AM
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'I am That' is one of my favorite books. 
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
So, I have to ask, if you know me as I know myself, why do you even question whether or not this is "divine energy"? Surely you would know the answer. Why do you ask me questions or pose derogatory remarks at all? Hmm?
I did not ask you any questions. Those were your own words.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
The lesson (212) says "That's why we see pictures of the sages with their eyes raised. They are in whole body ecstatic bliss just from that, with divine energy radiating out in all directions."
Is this really divine energy? Feels more like sexual energy, heat, tingles and tension.. it leaves a sunburned feeling on my hands, face, front, sometimes the whole body.
And this is why I suggested you to add YMK (Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka or Kevala Kumbhaka).
quote:
Oh, thanks for the link to your experiences back in 2009. Do you have anything more recent?
If you are interested in reading experiences, perhaps you can google Skoogle Kundalini Experiences. He maintained a good record of his expereiences like you do here on AYP:
http://kundalini-experiences.blogsp...er-2009.html
Tell me one thing T_I... Have you ever had a moment when you completely forgot who you were, who is Buddha, Nisargadatta, AYP, manigma, Meditation, Enlightenment, Jelly fish, Stars, Nimittas, Languages, Mantras, Chakras.... everything, just everything.
Like everything has been erased.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 10:53:19 AM
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TI,
Thank you for sharing your insights and perspective on the chakras. It is interesting to have an "under the covers" dualistic discussion. You have obviously spent more time focusing on the individual chakras than I have.
I did spend some time directing energy to grow specific chakras, but found it just unbalanced or overloaded me. After that, I just started letting it flow. Also, have you tried "creating" the energy directly in the chakra?
In my experience, after a while the third eye and crown begin to merge into one integrated chakra. After that, all of the chakras start to merge into kind of a "full body blob" chakra. Then you lose the chakra sense completely and it evolves to almost like vibrations on an individual cellular level. Others have described it to me as like all of your molecules vibrating together, but to me it almost feels like "heading to evaporation". Exercises like SBP basically light up everything, very little differentiation.
I am also interested in your desire to explore the chakras. Early on, I did some "experiments" with powers, but found I really didn't have any interest in it. Never felt the need, which in some ways was surprising to me, since I grew up loving comic book super heros. Are you looking for "powers" or just exploring?
Thanks again for sharing.
Peace & Love.
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Edited by - jeff on Jun 30 2011 1:05:28 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 1:22:26 PM
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| manigma you reminded me of an english music band from the 80's called Erasure...i never like them...but now at least i like the name |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 3:34:31 PM
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"Tell me one thing T_I... Have you ever had a moment when you completely forgot who you were, who is Buddha, Nisargadatta, AYP, manigma, Meditation, Enlightenment, Jelly fish, Stars, Nimittas, Languages, Mantras, Chakras.... everything, just everything.
Like everything has been erased."
........
deep sleep which seems a handy substitute for Turiya |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 12:19:15 AM
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Hi Manigma,
Thanks for the link but I am more interested on whether or not you have reconciled your free style meditation/kriyas and have adopted some kind of regular routine. Have you hit any samadhis or jhanas recently?
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
Tell me one thing T_I... Have you ever had a moment when you completely forgot who you were, who is Buddha, Nisargadatta, AYP, manigma, Meditation, Enlightenment, Jelly fish, Stars, Nimittas, Languages, Mantras, Chakras.... everything, just everything.
Like everything has been erased.
Yes, often. When I started doing a meditation of "looking back at who was watching", I would find myself lying in bed in the morning, with absolutely no thoughts/visions in my head and only the feeling or awareness that I existed. Then, if something pulled me out of that state, like the alarm going off or some exterior noise, I would watch myself being created along with the world. Sometimes in that state my mind would start up and I could clearly see a formation of thoughts appear like a little school of fish in a big pond. Sometimes, just laying there, I would be watching my mind churning away with no mental comment.
I've had several nights where I've watched my body sleep, continuous awareness 24/7. That is hard to get used to.. :)
I've also had a meditation when I successfully sustained relaxed attention on the visualization of the letter "I" in the mantra of "I am" and my body and everything just disappeared. I was left in a state where there was no motion, like being solid and the vision of "I" radiated a glorius golden light. Everything stopped. There was tremendous bliss and joy. It was so blissful that it just blew me away.
I've also done a meditation where you listen to both eeee sounds in the ears, balance them by relaxing and then focus on the middle where they join in the cave of brahman. The successful result of that was that I disappeared into a black hole where there was no consciousness. When I returned, I saw an outline of my body in golden yellow light appear for a brief second before I was back in the body. I believe that was an episode of savikalpa samadhi.
A long time ago, when I was 16 yrs old, I used to do a 'levitation meditation'. The mantra is "ham". While repeating the mantra mentally you visualize a silver thread going from the throat chakra to the tip of the nose, then to the brow, then to the crown. I put in great effort because I was determined to levitate. I practiced this every day for 1 hour for 30 days in a row. What would happen consistently is that the body would dissolve after about 20 minutes. Then, after a while, everything would disappear and there remained an upside down waterfall of silver sparkly light starting in the center of the neck, moving upwards for about 8 inches. It kind of pulls you upwards. But, I don't think I ever levitated because there is no body left at that time so who knows where it went, let alone if it levitated..
A few times during a 10 day initiation practice of performing a very long mantra 108 times per sitting (the sittings lasted anywhere from 1 hour 40 min to 2 1/2 hours), I would reach a point where my mind would just shut off and my body would split into 4 bodies, hanging out in a huge empty space.
And, I've had several satori moments and they are so beautiful and wonderful that during them, the mind was effectively stilled for a short period of time..
I know what you are getting at. During a successful meditation, the memory is stilled because the mind is stilled. I agree with that.
However I still do not believe that any of the samadhis (nirvikalpa or otherwise) or jhanas cause permanent memory loss after the experience, which is what you've said. No matter. I really don't care anymore.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 01:15:54 AM
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Hi Jeff,:)
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
TI,
Thank you for sharing your insights and perspective on the chakras. It is interesting to have an "under the covers" dualistic discussion. You have obviously spent more time focusing on the individual chakras than I have.
You know, for about two years, sometimes for my last meditation of the day, just before sleep, I would spin all of the chakras and just play around with them. Very light, fun kind of stuff. I would visualize them like Barbara Brennon depicts them like in here:
http://www.kabbalahandhealing.nl/en...lingen_e.htm
Sometimes I would visualize the colors in the chakras, and other times, just white light. I would practice spinning them, both front and back, slowing them down, speeding them up, connecting them through the central channel, running my hands up and down through them, sending healing to people, you know, just having fun. Sometimes I would bring some crystals to meditations and that made everything allot clearer.. It was lots of fun at the time.
quote:
I did spend some time directing energy to grow specific chakras, but found it just unbalanced or overloaded me. After that, I just started letting it flow. Also, have you tried "creating" the energy directly in the chakra?
No, never tried creating energy in the chakra. I've always thought and learned that you can direct energy to them from some other source like the lower tan tien, or even by pulling in prana or chi from the surrounding area. I didn't think I can create energy, perhaps only transmute it and direct it.
quote:
In my experience, after a while the third eye and crown begin to merge into one integrated chakra.
Yes. I know of a practice called the "Red Phoenix" where you draw the energy from the third eye to the center of the head and then up to the crown. (I can't tell you exactly how it is done, you'd have to take a kunlun course to find out.. ). I think that that practice connects a pathway, which, I've read, men need to connect, but women don't (because in women it is already connected). I wish I could remember where I read that..
quote:
Are you looking for "powers" or just exploring?
My mind has a bent towards finding out how things work. Like, when I learned of the technique to perform distance viewing from the heart, and then it worked, it was amazing.
I've also always wanted to be a healer. Perhaps that's because my father died of cancer when I was 24 (he was 49), and two of my younger sisters also died of cancer when they were 32 and 29.
I'm fascinated by how things work. Like, have you ever wondered how a guru (or person) can look at you at know everything about you? Your past lives, your thoughts etc??? Well I found that technique here from my favorites monks (you'll have to read the whole chapter for the steps):
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-13.html
The chapter is called "Five Steps to Enlightenment"
quote:
Step by step, practice withdrawal of the mind and look inward. One by one, you will witness the myriad good things within. Now and here below, you may meet the Lord for whom the ancient Veda still searches everywhere.
Tirumantiram 578
This is the effect of practising the five steps:
quote:
You look at the world from the inside out. You look at people from the inside out. You look at a person, and immediately you see how he came along through life. You look at his face, and you see what his mother looks like. You look into his subconscious mind; you see what his home looked like. You see what he was like when he was ten years old, fourteen, twenty, twenty-five years old; now he is thirty. And at the same time you are seeing what he is going to look like when he is forty years old, and so forth. You see the whole sequence, all now. Then you really know, after that deep samadhi, that the mind, in all phases of manifestation, was all finished long ago. It's already complete.
So I kind of thought that powers and enlightenment kind of go together. The powers are indicators that you are progressing and performing your practices/techniques correctly. Also, the powers are a good way to see if the guru/person is accomplished or not. And, yes, it is possible to have powers and not be enlightened.
I know it just blew me away when my guru, Shri Anandi Ma, appeared to me after my shaktipat in absentia initiation and presented me with a beautiful glowing red rose, all in the astral plane (or mind's eye space) as a graduation gift.
Now I know there has been allot of discussion about powers/siddhis on this forum. Some don't want them, they are a distraction, they could corrupt you, don't pursue them, they are a by-product not the main goal etc.. Each to his own. Whatever the mind believes becomes reality. If you don't have good control over your desires/mind/willpower, demonstrating powers could be very dangerous and incur lots of bad karma. And, the main goal is to realize the self. If it happens to be magical, so be it..
Jesus and Buddha had powers. So did John Wilder.. :)
Please God, grant everyone who obtains or has powers/siddhis the wisdom to use them wisely and for the good of humanity. :)
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 01:31:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
deep sleep which seems a handy substitute for Turiya
Hey maheswari, :)
Thanks for that. I was doing some research, comparing turiya to deep sleep and I actually found a page written by Osho where he expounded on the technique of turning the attention around to discover who is looking...
link: http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-o...attains-all/
quote:
When you are filled with attachments, when you are tranquil, when you are restless – there is someone within who keeps a constant watch; but you take no notice of this observer. Your attention flows toward what is seen in the world, and you are one with what you see; it doesn’t occur to you to turn and see the observer within who watches. This is all you have to do: turn within and see the observer. Your unconsciousness will break and you will attain the fourth state. He who attains the fourth state attains all. He who does not attain the fourth state, finds at the time of death that whatever he has earned, whatever he has gathered, is not worth a penny. It is all useless.
I admit that I'm not a big fan of Osho, probably because he talks too much (kidding), but it was nice to see another source stating the method of turning one's attention towards the knower or observer..
:)
TI
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 08:18:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
.. but I have seen no other statements that memory is permanently erased.
Q: As you talk to us just now, are you unconscious?
M: I am neither conscious nor unconscious, I am beyond the mind and its various states and conditions. Distinctions are created by the mind and apply to the mind only. I am pure Consciousness itself, unbroken awareness of all that is. I am in a more real state than yours. I am undistracted by the distinctions and separations which constitute a person. As long as the body lasts, it has its needs like any other, but my mental process has come to an end.
Q: You behave like a person who thinks.
M: Why not? But my thinking, like my digestion, is unconscious and purposeful.
Q: At this very moment who talks, if not the mind?
M: That which hears the question, answers it.
Q: But who is it?
M: Not who, but what. I'm not a person in your sense of the word, though I may appear a person to you. I am that infinite ocean of consciousness in which all happens. I am also beyond all existence and cognition, pure bliss of being. There is nothing I feel separate from, hence I am all. No thing is me, so I am nothing. The same power that makes the fire burn and the water flow, the seeds sprout and the trees grow, makes me answer your questions. There is nothing personal about me, though the language and the style may appear personal. A person is a set pattern of desires and thoughts and resulting actions; there is no such pattern in my case. There is nothing I desire or fear -- how can there be a pattern?
~ Nisargadatta [I Am That]
Tada!
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 08:54:17 AM
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good link TI...txs..personally i like Osho
manigma i have the book but did not read it yet...i am still ruminating Ramana cause he is more clear that Nisargadatta
Love to all |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 11:20:52 AM
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TI,
Thanks for the links, I will definitely look into them.
Interesting story (for me anyways) of how I am constantly amazed by how I seem to always be "guided" to things that I a am supposed to do/learn. Over the last couple days that we have talked in this thread, I have also had some email communication with Wayne (Wirs). One of the points, we thought would be useful for the AYP community. So I did a search to see if I could find an appropriate thread to add the information to and found an old (2009) thread that Kirtanman started about Wayne in which you, Christi & Kirtanman debate Enlightenment with or without Engoddenment. Great thread & discussion. But, I now have a much better understanding of where you are coming from. Also, it "feels" like I should spend some time with your threads...
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
No, never tried creating energy in the chakra. I've always thought and learned that you can direct energy to them from some other source like the lower tan tien, or even by pulling in prana or chi from the surrounding area. I didn't think I can create energy, perhaps only transmute it and direct it.
The good news about being on a "pathless" path is that nobody tells you what you can and can't do. The bad news is there is a lot of trial & error... Shanti discusses the beginning basics of "energy creation" in the thread below. Once you get the "knack" of it, you can skip all of her described steps and just do it. To me, it feels more like opening the door to the energy. But be careful, there is "unlimited" energy back there. If you haven't already learned how, you should first learn how to "radiate" excess energy. Another one of the meanings of "divine outpouring of love" is "so much energy that you don't know what the heck to do with it, so radiate it..."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3489
Happy to discuss this more if you are interested.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
My mind has a bent towards finding out how things work.
I am basically the same, but still working on trying to "surrender" the desire.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I've also always wanted to be a healer. Perhaps that's because my father died of cancer when I was 24 (he was 49), and two of my younger sisters also died of cancer when they were 32 and 29.
I also lost my father to brain cancer and my only brother died of leukemia at 21. I think it is great that you want to help people, but everyone has their own path and as I am sure that you can already see, there is a flow. In my limited experience, healing is more about the "receiving and accepting" than the "giving".
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
So I kind of thought that powers and enlightenment kind of go together. The powers are indicators that you are progressing and performing your practices/techniques correctly. Also, the powers are a good way to see if the guru/person is accomplished or not. And, yes, it is possible to have powers and not be enlightened.
I agree with you on this. Even Wayne (who Kirtanman quoted/defended) now describes it as "mystical oneness" rather than "enlightenment". His initial impressions have dramatically grown & changed. Also, not really having anyone else to talk to, I conducted my early experiments to basically "prove" to myself that I wasn't imagining it all. To me, powers are just focused intent wrapped in energy. I have found that there is a flow to everything and it is better to just "feel the flow and go with it".
Finally, I really enjoyed the old thread of your discussion with Christi & Kirtanman. Any other old threads that you would recommend reading...?
Peace & Love. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 11:31:42 AM
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Manigma or Mareswari,
Question for you... Is your position that memory is erased or mind/ego? All of the quotes you have stated describe the loss of individual "mind/ego" not "memory". The initial impact of "oneness" seems to be initially overwhelming, but all the masters seem to ultimately find their memory.
I was just wondering if it was a wording issue.
Peace & Love. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 3:12:41 PM
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memory or Chitta in vedic terminology is a collection of past samsakaras....ie the subconscious...so it is defintely related to the ego....
the enlightened has no ego...all his samskaras are burnt...
as manigma quoted Nisargadatta
quote:
I'm not a person in your sense of the word, though I may appear a person to you. I am that infinite ocean of consciousness in which all happens. I am also beyond all existence and cognition, pure bliss of being. There is nothing I feel separate from, hence I am all. No thing is me, so I am nothing. The same power that makes the fire burn and the water flow, the seeds sprout and the trees grow, makes me answer your questions. There is nothing personal about me, though the language and the style may appear personal. A person is a set pattern of desires and thoughts and resulting actions; there is no such pattern in my case. There is nothing I desire or fear -- how can there be a pattern?
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Edited by - maheswari on Jul 01 2011 3:38:45 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 12:39:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
memory or Chitta in vedic terminology is a collection of past samsakaras....ie the subconscious...so it is defintely related to the ego....
the enlightened has no ego...all his samskaras are burnt...
as manigma quoted Nisargadatta
quote:
I'm not a person in your sense of the word, though I may appear a person to you. I am that infinite ocean of consciousness in which all happens. I am also beyond all existence and cognition, pure bliss of being. There is nothing I feel separate from, hence I am all. No thing is me, so I am nothing. The same power that makes the fire burn and the water flow, the seeds sprout and the trees grow, makes me answer your questions. There is nothing personal about me, though the language and the style may appear personal. A person is a set pattern of desires and thoughts and resulting actions; there is no such pattern in my case. There is nothing I desire or fear -- how can there be a pattern?
Wow... that was great Maha . It would make things much clearer.
I literally didn't know "memory" was called Chitta in Sanskrit.
http://veda.wikidot.com/chitta
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 01:09:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
...
Shanti discusses the beginning basics of "energy creation" in the thread below. Once you get the "knack" of it, you can skip all of her described steps and just do it. To me, it feels more like opening the door to the energy. But be careful, there is "unlimited" energy back there. If you haven't already learned how, you should first learn how to "radiate" excess energy. Another one of the meanings of "divine outpouring of love" is "so much energy that you don't know what the heck to do with it, so radiate it..."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3489
Happy to discuss this more if you are interested.
...
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I had read that post a while ago. Dissolving thoughts is definately an interesting practice. There are many components to that discussion that should be noted. First is the architecture of the two levels of consciousness that are used.
I noticed something when I was practising samyama a while back. After a few years of samyama, I observed the fact that a part of my mind would remember the next sutra, then hold it for the appropriate time and then release it internally into the internal consciousness or into the void or even into inner silence, (not sure what to call it) but no matter.
Then I wondered what it would be like if one were to bypass the two-stage process (that is, the first stage is the acquisition of the sutra into attention, the holding of it, and the waiting until the right moment, and the second stage is the releasing of the sutra into silence or the void (it looks more like a black void to me). I mean, instead of releasing the sutra into consciousness, what if you didn't prepare it but instead just released the sutra directly from that which was remembering, holding and then releasing the sutra? In other words, what if you made the subconscious or the superconscious do the releasing directly? Or even, what if you meditated directly with that deeper inner mind instead of allowing the mind the time to bring it into consciousness?
That led me into an inquiry about the levels of thought and the discovery that if a person intuits the mantra, that is, just has the finest faintest quickest smallest intention of producing one iteration of the mantra (or sutra), that there is this very bright white light above the head that this intuiting of the mantra seems to come from. Either that or the light hides behind thoughts and is not actually the source of thoughts. It is the thoughts which render the light invisible, like clouds blocking the sun.
From my observation, a thought is created seemingly out of silence/presence/dark space, but it might be coming from the light. It is pulled up from far away and really deep, in the back of the mind, like the smallest intuition or spec. Then the thought grows larger and the conscious mind gains an opportunity to grasp it. If the thought is given enough attention for a given amount of time, the thought is charged with more energy (attention) and this causes the conscious mind to react to it: Memories that might be relevant are brought up, reactions or emotions now come into play, rational examination may occur, other thoughts may precipitate etc.. Even, as with the mantra, the physical body may react in chorus with the thought, like the silent subvocalization from the throat and corresponding energy flow from the lower tan tien. This process uses up energy.
So yes, if you stop the thought, by not giving it more energy and halting your attention, the energy that was supposed to flow into the thought has to go somewhere.
So if you take it a step further, and just don't put any attention into thoughts, eventually you will effectively halt the flow of energy and become clear, thought-free and can see what lies beyond.
I think that is what Buddha meant by non-attachment or non-grasping.
Tolle said something interesting in one of his writings. He said that it takes the mind about 1, 2 or 3 seconds for the mind to grasp/attach to an external object. (the time varies a little per person). If you look at an object, like a dog or a tree, for the first few seconds the mind has not had time to grasp the object and come into play. At that point, you are observing the object without the cloudiness of mind. At that point, you are perceiving without the intervention of mind and the clouds of thought.
So this is what I do sometimes when sitting in the forest. I look at a tree for 1 second, then move my point of vision to another location on the tree, or move it to another tree, or a leaf or a branch and continue doing that every second. The mind doesn't have enough time to grasp what I'm looking at! It's great!
When I do this, the trees/leaves/branches, everything I am looking at, are vivid, crisp, clear and bright... something like high definition vision. Just think, if you keep changing your object of attention every second for 10 minutes, that is 10 minutes that the mind hasn't had time to grasp anything. That's 10 minutes of silence (and glorious, shiny scenery, the life force in trees becomes very clear).
Now apply that to the mantra. If your mind can grasp something in two seconds, and you keep the mantra down to under two seconds, what happens? For me, the space in my head opens up and the internal TV set turns on, I see white light, lots of visions and the root starts pulsing. But it all seems easier than if I make the mantra longer that two seconds.. I spent years stretching out the mantra to help keep solid attention on it.. DUH!!
Perhaps the thing that most intrigued me about that forum post that you posted the link for, is when Yogani says
quote:
Recall that the original instruction for picking up a sutra in samyama is to pick it up at a very faint and fuzzy level. This can also be interpreted to mean "the energy before the thought.
Now I am wondering the the "faint and fuzzy level" is the same as in the directions for deep meditation, where you pick up the mantra at the faint and fuzzy level. The implication being that you pick up the mantra as energy before the thought has time to manifest and before the conscious part of the mind can grasp it.. Something to think about..
Thanks for your correspondence. Yes, sometimes it is very interesting when someone points something out to you and you find great value in it. Thanks again.
:)
TI
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 01:20:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Yes, often. When I started doing a meditation of "looking back at who was watching", I would find myself lying in bed in the morning, with absolutely no thoughts/visions in my head and only the feeling or awareness that I existed. Then, if something pulled me out of that state, like the alarm going off or some exterior noise, I would watch myself being created along with the world...
... I know what you are getting at. During a successful meditation, the memory is stilled because the mind is stilled. I agree with that.
However I still do not believe that any of the samadhis (nirvikalpa or otherwise) or jhanas cause permanent memory loss after the experience, which is what you've said. No matter. I really don't care anymore.
None of the experiences you have mentioned above (or in this entire thread) relate to Samadhi. Those are beautiful and authentic experiences but none of them can be called Samadhi.
Samadhi is end of all experiences.
Experiences to me are like children admiring colorful pebbles and men amazed upon seeing diamonds. I have had such experiences that in comparison yours appear insignificant. But all experiences are useless.
Nisargadatta's words are so clear that if you had Samadhi even once, you would not have asked so many questions.
Even though you have said you don't care about this anymore, I would like to clear this re-incarnation stuff from a quote by Nisargadatta:
When Krishna says 'I remember all my past births', he means the 'I am', the fundamental feeling behind all births. There is no 'I am such-and-such'.
~Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta Gita]
Do not try to understand, un-understand!
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 03:26:39 AM
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quote:
When Krishna says 'I remember all my past births', he means the 'I am', the fundamental feeling behind all births. There is no 'I am such-and-such'.
~Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta Gita]
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awesome |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 11:17:27 AM
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manigma
by the way...
in vedanta terminology Chitta is memory
whereas in raja yoga terrminology (Patanjali's sutras) Chitta means mind stuff...it corresponds to the Anthakarana in Vedanta.... |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 12:04:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
From my observation, a thought is created seemingly out of silence/presence/dark space, but it might be coming from the light. It is pulled up from far away and really deep, in the back of the mind, like the smallest intuition or spec. Then the thought grows larger and the conscious mind gains an opportunity to grasp it. If the thought is given enough attention for a given amount of time, the thought is charged with more energy (attention) and this causes the conscious mind to react to it: Memories that might be relevant are brought up, reactions or emotions now come into play, rational examination may occur, other thoughts may precipitate etc.. Even, as with the mantra, the physical body may react in chorus with the thought, like the silent subvocalization from the throat and corresponding energy flow from the lower tan tien. This process uses up energy.
So yes, if you stop the thought, by not giving it more energy and halting your attention, the energy that was supposed to flow into the thought has to go somewhere.
So if you take it a step further, and just don't put any attention into thoughts, eventually you will effectively halt the flow of energy and become clear, thought-free and can see what lies beyond.
I think that is what Buddha meant by non-attachment or non-grasping.
TI,
I agree. The energy follows the "awareness" or "attention". Drop the attention and the thought loses it energy. Never give anything energy and you have "pure awareness". But the energy is created (or defined) at the pre-intent stage, or as Yogani described "before the thought", so it is not about stopping the thought, but about never having the intent to have the thought.
Going back to the topic of creating energy... If you can see the energy created at Yogani's "before the thought", you can than skip the whole thought process and just open the door to the energy using just the pre-intent. If you hold the pre-intent door wide the energy keeps growing.
Peace & Love. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2011 : 11:42:23 PM
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Hi Manigma :)
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
None of the experiences you have mentioned above (or in this entire thread) relate to Samadhi. Those are beautiful and authentic experiences but none of them can be called Samadhi.
Samadhi is end of all experiences.
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We have a communication problem here.
Rather than define Samadhi yourself, could you please tell me from what reliable source you are taking your definition of "Samadhi"?
Here is Patanjali's definition of some kinds of Samadhi:
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
quote:
According to Patañjali samadhi has three different categories:
1.Savikalpa - This is an interface of trans meditation[clarification needed] and higher awareness state, asamprajñata. The state is so named because mind retains its consciousness, which is why in savikalpa samadhi one can experience guessing (vitarka), thought (vicara), bliss Ananda) and self-awareness (asmita). In Sanskrit, "kalpa" means "imagination".
...
So "savikalpa" means "with vikalpa" or "with imagination". Ramana Maharshi defines "savikalpa samadhi" as, "holding on to reality with effort".
2.Asamprajñata is a step forward from savikalpa. According to Patañjali, asamprajñata is a higher awareness state with absence of gross awareness.
3.Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience. Upon entering nirvikalpa samadhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection.
It even quotes Nisargadatta here:
quote:
Samadhi is described in different ways within Hinduism such as the state of being aware of one’s existence without thinking, in a state of undifferentiated “beingness" or as an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by bliss (ananda) and joy (sukha). Nisargadatta Maharaj describes the state in the following manner:
When you say you sit for meditation, the first thing to be done is understand that it is not this body identification that is sitting for meditation, but this knowledge ‘I am’, this consciousness, which is sitting in meditation and is meditating on itself. When this is finally understood, then it becomes easy. When this consciousness, this conscious presence, merges in itself, the state of ‘Samadhi’ ensues. It is the conceptual feeling that I exist that disappears and merges into the beingness itself. So this conscious presence also gets merged into that knowledge, that beingness – that is ‘Samadhi’.
This article has 75 occurences of the word "samadhi".
link: http://www.cit-sakti.com/kundalini/...itation2.htm
quote:
Second, it is important to understand that when we say that a person achieves samadhi during meditation practice we do not necessarily mean that the mind always goes into that state and maintains it uninterruptedly for a long period. While this can happen, often meditators experience samadhi for a short period of time, and then their mind goes outward again and drops to a lower level of consciousness. This outward flowing of the mind is called vyutthana, and it happens when thoughts, attachments, desires and memories about the outside world (which are temporarily suppressed in samadhi) become active again. If the mind is able to regain the same depth of concentration, we may be able to reenter samadhi. In this way we may go into and out of samadhi several times in one meditation session. Through the process of samadhi and vyutthana the mind makes a comparison between the two states and feels the greater subtlety and peacefulness of the samadhi state. This encourages the meditator to try again to attain the higher state.
There are many kinds of Samadhi:
link: http://www.swamij.com/om.htm
quote:
Many types of Samadhi: There are many forms of Samadhi. An even cursory review of the texts will reveal dozens of different types. Mostly, these differences have to do with the nature of the object on which one was meditating before dropping into the state of Samadhi with that object.
Let's get a little more specific. I have done this next practice, and according to Gurudeva's writing, I entered savikalpa samadhi by listening to the high 'eeee' sound in both ears:
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-38.html
quote:
Now, to bring the sushumna force into power, listen to both tones simultaneously. It may take you about five minutes to hear both tones at the same time. Next, follow both tonal vibrations from the ears into the center of the cranium, where they will meet and blend into a slightly different sound, as two notes, say, a "C" and an "E," blend into a chord. The energy of the nadis is then flowing in a circle, and you will enter the golden yellow light of the sushumna current. Play with this light and bask in its radiance, for in it is your bloom. The unfoldment progresses from a golden yellow to a clear white light. Should you see a blue light, know that you are in the pingala current. If you see a pink light, that is the color of the ida. Just disregard them and seek for the white light in the tone of the combined currents until finally you do not hear the tone anymore and you burst into the clear white light. Thus you enter savikalpa samadhi -- samadhi with seed, or consciousness, which is the culmination of this particular practice of contemplation.
And again from the Himalayan Academy:
quote:
After nirvikalpa samadhi is attained and perfected so that the mahayogi can go into it at will, he leaves the body consciously through the door of Brahman, the center of the sahasrara chakra above the pituitary gland at the top of the head.
So technically, I have achieved nirvikalpa samadhi more than twice.. The first time was over 20 years ago when I meditated on the area above the head, because I wanted to see the light that everyone was talking about. I was sitting in a recliner and spent 3 1/2 hours just focusing on the area about 6 inches above my head, where a star is supposed to be. After 3 1/2 hours I came out of my body through the top of my head and found myself in a large open space. It looked liked outer space but with very little light in it. I felt like I was going to die. I was shocked and afraid. I cut it short, but, according to the aforementioned quote, that was nirvikalpa samadhi because I left through the door of Brahmin. Since then I've had a few episodes in the void, which I wrote about on this forum.. You don't have to go through the top of your head to get into the void.. You can leave through the bindu at the back of the head. You can also leave through the ajna. Regulated breath control as in Spinal Breathing will get you there too.
So, Manigma, I really don't know what you are talking about. Whose teachings do you follow that uses words/terminology with meanings so far removed from the mainstream of yoga?
And, here is something funny I came accross in "The Essence of the Bhagavad Gita, explained by Paramhansa Yogananda, As remembered by His Disciple, Swami Kriyananda" , page 126 (bolding is mine)
quote:
One who attains nirbikalpa samadhi has reached the highest state state there is. He has only to rid himself of the memories of past incarnations of ego-identification. Otherwise, he is like Christ, Krishna, and Buddha. From oneness with God it is impossible to rise any higher. "
Although this interpretation of Nirvikalpa samadhi is different from most others because it might seem like reaching nirvikalpa samadhi once is all it takes to become self realized (other sources say that you have to enter nirvikalpa samadhi many times to become enlightened), it does mention that memories still remain! So much for "nirvikalpa samadhi erasing all memories.. "
Do you still think that Nisargadatta was right?
Are you speaking from experience or just off the top of your head? (Pun intended). ;)
Perhaps you meant "None of the experiences you have mentioned above (or in this entire thread) relate to Self Realization. Those are beautiful and authentic experiences but none of them can be called Samadhi.
Self Realization is end of all experiences."
And if that is what you are saying, aren't all of my experiences related to Self Realization? And aren't all of my experiences some form of samadhi?
And yes, I am not Self Realized. Thanks for pointing that out.. :)
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 02 2011 11:59:53 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 01:33:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
So, Manigma, I really don't know what you are talking about. Whose teachings do you follow that uses words/terminology with meanings so far removed from the mainstream of yoga?
LOL. From the one who taught Yoga to Patanjali.
Well I agree with what Patañjali, Ramana and Nisargadatta have said.
The Himalayan Academy seems to have a different explanation, your out of body experience fits there Nirvikalpa Samadhi but its not even Samadhi according to me.
But if you think it is what it is, enjoy!
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 01:41:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
And, here is something funny I came accross in "The Essence of the Bhagavad Gita, explained by Paramhansa Yogananda, As remembered by His Disciple, Swami Kriyananda" , page 126 (bolding is mine)
quote:
One who attains nirbikalpa samadhi has reached the highest state state there is. He has only to rid himself of the memories of past incarnations of ego-identification. Otherwise, he is like Christ, Krishna, and Buddha. From oneness with God it is impossible to rise any higher. "
Do you still think that Nisargadatta was right?
Well that was Swami Kriyananda's memory/remembrance on what Paramhansa Yogananda had said.
As Maheshwari has mentioned above, the "Chitta - memory" stuff and the passage I have quoted from "I Am That"... that makes things very clear where Nisargadatta stands and what he meant when he said:
With the dropping of the primary experience 'I am', all experiences will vanish and only the Absolute remains.
When this concept 'I am' departs, there will be no memory left that 'I was' and 'I had' those experiences, the very memory will be erased.
~Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta Gita]
Perhaps this would make things more clear on what I mean by Samadhi and what Nisargadatta means by erasing of memory:
"Dharmakaya (Truth) has no form, therefore one sees it without seeing. Dharma (Reality) has no voice, therefore one hears it without hearing. Prajna (Self) has nothing to be known, therefore one knows it without knowing. If one thinks that he is seeing, he sees it incompletely. If one thinks that he knows it, he does not know it thoroughly. When one knows it without knowing, he knows it completely. If one does not know this, he is not a true knower. If one thinks that he is gaining, he is not gaining entirely. When he gains nongaining, he owns everything. If one thinks that he is right, his righteousness is not perfect. When he transcends right and wrong, his virtues are accomplished."
~ Bodhidharma [The White Lotus]
http://www.balbro.com/lotus
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 3:33:10 PM
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Hi Manigma, :)
Guess what? I finally found the link where Sri Chinmoy wrote about nirvikalpa samadhi with reference to memory loss, but it doesn't seem to be permanent:
link: http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0141/4/4
quote:
Nirvikalpa</I> samadhi is the highest samadhi that most spiritual Masters attain, and then only if they have achieved realisation. It lasts for a few hours or a few days, and then one has to come down. When one comes down, what happens? Very often one forgets his own name. One forgets his own age. He cannot speak properly. But through continued practice, gradually one becomes able to come down from <i>nirvikalpa samadhi and immediately function in a normal way.
There were spiritual Masters in the hoary past who attained nirvikalpa samadhi and did not come down. They maintained their highest samadhi and found it impossible to enter into the world atmosphere and work like human beings. One cannot operate in the world while in that state of consciousness; it is simply impossible.
You've probably never heard of Sri Chinmoy, not many people have.. He has an interesting perspective..
Here is the index to his writings:
link: http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0141
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 03 2011 3:45:43 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 3:53:22 PM
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Hi :)
I finally found some insight about the light in the head!!!
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-15.html
quote:
Wednesday
LESSON 101
Each Test Is an Opportunity
We carry with us in our instinctive nature basic tendencies to break these divine laws, to undergo the experiences that will create reactive conditions until we sit ourselves down and start to unravel the mess. If we are still reacting to our experiences, we are only starting on the yoga path to enlightenment. As soon as we cease to react, we have for the first time the vision of the inner light.
What do we mean by this word light? We mean light, literally, not metaphysically or symbolically, but light, just as you see the light of the sun or a light emitted by a bulb. Even in the Abrahamic scripture it is given, "When your eye becomes single, your whole body shall be filled with light." You will see light first at the top of the head, then throughout the body. An openness of mind occurs, and great peace. As a seeker gazes upon his inner light in contemplation, he continues the process of purifying the subconscious mind. As soon as that first yoga awakening comes to you, your whole nature begins to change. You have a foundation on which to continue. The yamas and the niyamas are the foundation.
Non-reaction and purifying the subconscious causes the light to shine!!
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 03 2011 4:03:30 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4518 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 4:31:37 PM
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Hi TI,
The inner lights in the body are discussed in lesson 56, which you may find interesting:
quote:
These words of Jesus also have a literal meaning -- a very literal meaning. If your attention becomes centered in the single channel of the spinal nerve, taking it to the point between the eyebrows again and again, your body will become filled with light. This is how it happens. Sambhavi is one of the most important means by which the third eye is opened. In opening the third eye, all that is below is activated as well. Sambhavi has direct influence through the spinal nerve on sexual energy. As purification of the nervous system progresses, sambhavi gives us a great degree of control over the cultivation and rise of sexual energy. This, in turn, gives rise to the experience of increasing ecstasy in the body, which includes profound experiences of divine light surging through every nerve in us. Our body is “filled with light.”
http://www.aypsite.org/56.html
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2011 : 11:53:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi TI,
The inner lights in the body are discussed in lesson 56, which you may find interesting:
quote:
These words of Jesus also have a literal meaning -- a very literal meaning. If your attention becomes centered in the single channel of the spinal nerve, taking it to the point between the eyebrows again and again, your body will become filled with light. This is how it happens. Sambhavi is one of the most important means by which the third eye is opened. In opening the third eye, all that is below is activated as well. Sambhavi has direct influence through the spinal nerve on sexual energy. As purification of the nervous system progresses, sambhavi gives us a great degree of control over the cultivation and rise of sexual energy. This, in turn, gives rise to the experience of increasing ecstasy in the body, which includes profound experiences of divine light surging through every nerve in us. Our body is “filled with light.”
http://www.aypsite.org/56.html
Christi
Hi Christi :)
Thanks for that. It corresponds nicely with the Whole Body Mudra and the other things that I have learned (or am re-learning). :)
Just re-read Yogani's Deep Meditation book. Yes, he mentions the light in there too (once the clouds are removed).
Which brings me to my next post..
Always nice to have your input, Christi.
:)
TI
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