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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2024 : 09:34:45 AM
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Hi all,
I've been following AYP for a couple years now, on and off. My experience has become more significant over the last year or so, or even just the past few months, where I've practiced twice a day, as recommended.
My current practice consists of 20 mns of DM twice a day, with a couple of minutes of rest afterwards.
I've had to cut back (mainly SPB and samyama) after having experienced some pretty significant overload symptoms which I believe were due to strong heart and crown purification.
Now, I'm aware that analysis can be counterproductive when it comes to mantra management. I'm also aware that the real test for our practice is "do I have more peace, energy, joy and creativity in between my sessions?". But I'd just like to ask one question, to know whether or not I'm on the right track with deep meditation.
Anyway, here's my current experience with the mantra : it refines in a faint 'mmmmmmmmm' after only a couple back to back repetitions. It seems that for me, currently, this single vibration which goes 'mmmmmm' is the faintest level the mantra has refined into. This is what I pick up when I find myself off the mantra, until the end of the 20 mins.
Since the mantra we're supposed to repeat is 'ayam' and not 'mmmmm', the fact that it settles in a single 'mmmmmmmm' vibration makes me wonder if I should make a conscious effort to come back to an 'ayam' pronunciation altogether. Makes sense?
Also, there seems to be, along with the faint 'mmmmmmmm' sound in my mind, some degree of mantra visualization going on. Is this normal? When I'm off the mantra, I gently favor the sound, rather than the mental image, but the latter is there anyways, most of the time.
Does that sound like correct practice?
Can anyone relate, in the sense that they've also experienced such a refinement of the mantra?
I'd appreciate any feedback/guidance.
Cheers!
Quentin  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2024 : 11:03:07 AM
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Hi qspadone,
Thanks for sharing. Yes, the mantra can refine to become a continuous sound vibration. And when the mantra is refined, and we find we are off the mantra, then we have the choice to come back to it either with a more clear pronunciation, or at the refined level it was at before we lost it. So, you are on the right track.
And yes, if a mental image of the mantra is appearing during meditation, then easily favour the sound vibration of the mantra, over the image. It is the sound vibration that purifies the subtle nervous system, not an image in the mind. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2024 : 10:52:59 AM
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Thanks for your quick reply, Christi!
I used to do 10 minutes of SPB (with ujjayi, mulabandha, and sambhavi) twice a day before the 20 minutes of DM, as well as samyama afterwards (for a couple of weeks). Looking back, I don't think I should have jumped ahead so much. I went through some pretty hectic energy related experiences (heart and crown openings, I assume) that were so distracting I could barely attend my daily activities.
I think that for the time being, I should just stabilize my practice with 20 minutes of DM twice a day for a month or two.
My question is, which practice should I add next to my routine? Mantra enhancements? Solar plexus centering? Samyama?
I think I need to add something which builds up and helps me integrate even more inner silence in my nervous system. Experience has shown that I don't need much practice to have energetic experiences.
My other question is, I'm not sure exactly which practice exactly led to the uncomfortable heart and crown opening symptoms. Could it be SPB (along with mulabandha, sambhavi), or samyama? Can DM lead to such symptoms, for sensitive meditators?
So, I don't think I should add anything which could lead back to those energy overloads. On the other hand, I read somewhere in the lessons that SPB can have a stabilizing effect for the inner energies when they are out of control. Is that right?
Any advice/guidance much appreciated.
Cheers!
Quentin
Btw, I'm not sure whether or not I should have started a new thread in another section. Please let me know if that's the case.
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Edited by - qspadone on Jun 12 2024 12:16:58 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2024 : 12:27:10 PM
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Hi qspadone,
It sounds like you are doing the wise thing by cutting back to meditation only for a while.
For a practitioner who is sensitive, any spiritual practices can lead to the activation of chakras and nadis, and possibly to uncomfortable symptoms. However, it is more likely to be the energetic practices that are the cause. Things like pranayama, mudras, bandhas, siddhasana etc. So, these would be the first things to cut back on. However, meditation and samyama do also cause inner purification, so we cannot rule them out.
If you are looking to expand your practice, but are concerned about energetic overload, then adding samyama rather than pranayama could be a good move. You would find out pretty soon if it was too much for you, and can always step back again. If you are having issues with the crown chakra, then it could be good to avoid the mantra enhancements for now. The first mantra enhancement in both the original series and the alternative series involve SHREE, which is a crown activation mantra. Solar centering is an advanced practice and would normally be taken on after samyama and the mantra enhancements, if taken on at all.
And yes, some people do find that adding a short Spinal Breathing Pranayama session (such as 5 minutes) before meditation can be stabilising as it balances the prana between the root and the brow. However, other people who are sensitive find it to be too stimulating. So, again, the only way to find out would be to try and see. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2024 : 4:08:40 PM
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Hi Christi, and everyone,
I have finally sort of stabilized my routine by only practicing DM for 20 minutes twice each day. I tried breath meditation for some time because of overload fear, but finally decided to go back to 20 minutes of DM as I found I could handle it. I am following the instructions which are to easily repeat the mantra inside, letting it go how it will, and favouring it whenever I notice I am off it.
My question today is related to the mantra pronunciation, which I know has been discussed extensively on this forum. The "AYAM" mantra audio recording by Yogani sounds very american. But I am French. How I read out loud "AYAM" does not sound like Yogani reading it.
When I repeat the mantra inside, it tends to change pronunciation, and I know that's not correct practice. For instance, I'm not sure how emphasized the "Y" part should be. When stretched out, I can almost hear an "E" sound. Is that OK?
Also, the second "A" sounds like the first one, for me. Whereas it doesn't seem to, when Yogani says it. He second "A" sounds different.
So I guess my question is, is it OK to say AYAM with a different accent than Yogani's?
Just wanted to make sure everything is alright in the way I do it.
P.S.: There seems to always be a certain degree of vizualisation going on. I sometimes can perceive the letters in my mind as I repeat the mantra. I do my best to favour the mental sound, and even then, there are times when both seem to be present at the same time. Is that normal?
P.S. 2: There are other times when the mantra feel like a series of waves crashing on the beach, and it can even give me a similar feeling to sea-sickness. Is that normal too? I do my best not to favour that, but it's not always easy to know exactly what the refined form of the mantra is. My take is that it is the mental sound. So that's what I favour.
P.S. 3: I can honestly say that I have had a hard time with the notion of "effortlessly" (favouring the mantra). I know this has been discussed extensively. Is there such a thing as favouring the mantra too effortlessly?
Cheers |
Edited by - qspadone on Aug 29 2024 5:00:15 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2024 : 5:06:37 PM
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Hi qspadone,
Everyone has their own accent, so yes, do use your own when pronouncing mantras.
Yogani's audio gives a good indication of where to start. Once the mantra is going though, as you mentioned, we simply let it go as it will. The sound can change, as can other things like the speed, rhythm etc. When the mantra is refining, we can simply let it refine as it will. If we find ourselves coming back out into a more clear pronunciation, and we notice that the mantra has changed into a different word, such as AYEEM, or AIM, then we would favour AYAM instead of the new word that it has changed into. In practice, this is very easy to do.
The sound vibration of the mantra can be both heard and felt within the body (and sometimes outside of the body), and the mantra can refine into simply a felt vibration. So, if it refines to become the feeling of waves crashing on the shore, then that is the refined mantra. If you are simply visualising waves crashing on a shore, then favour the sound/ feeling of the mantra over that. It is the sound/ felt sense, that is purifying.
The same is the case if you find yourself visualising the letters of the mantra during meditation. Easily favour the sound vibration/ felt sense of the mantra, over the visualised form of the letters. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2024 : 10:33:14 AM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
The sound vibration of the mantra can be both heard and felt within the body (and sometimes outside of the body), and the mantra can refine into simply a felt vibration.
This is interesting!
I did not realize the mantra could be felt in the body. May I ask for further clarifications?
I think I have a tendency to stay on the surface level of the mind with the mantra, thus making DM less effective.
Is the felt sensation of the mantra similar to that of when I effortlessly direct my attention at my energetic "inner" body, and start feeling tingles and stuff like that?
Unfortunately, I change my interpretation of the DM instructions so frequently that I haven't been able to determine which interpretation brings about the best results.
Cheers |
Edited by - qspadone on Aug 30 2024 1:18:16 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2024 : 2:48:44 PM
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Hi qspadone,
The most effective level of mind to be at during Deep Mediation is the level of mind that you have in that moment. It could be conceived by the mind as shallow, or it could be conceived by the mind as deep. That does not matter. If you find yourself thinking during meditation: -this meditation practice would be more effective if my mind was deeper- then easily favour the mantra over that thought.
And yes, as the mantra refines and the inner senses begin to open we can begin to both hear and feel the mantra. And it can be similar to other pranic sensations felt in the body. When we begin to feel it there is no mistaking it.
I usually find that for people who have a tendency to keep interpreting the Deep Meditation instructions in different ways, and changing their practice often, that at some point they come to an -ah ha!- moment and they realise that all they need to do is to easily favour the mantra over anything else that is going on, and that it is actually very simple. At the same time they usually realise that any layer of interpretation by the mind on top of this is an unnecessary layer of complexity that actually detracts from the very simplicity of the practice that makes it so effective. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2024 : 10:14:35 AM
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Thanks for that, Christi!
If I find that I can handle 20 minutes of DM twice a day without any discomfort through the day, is it OK to increase the sessions to 30 minutes ?
Or would it be more beneficial to add samyama?
And if I decide to add samyama, how do I know when it is time to do so? |
Edited by - qspadone on Sep 09 2024 10:48:48 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2024 : 3:52:40 PM
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Hi qspadone,
Yes, if your practice is stable and comfortable you could increase meditation time to 25 minutes, or 30 minutes per session over time. Or, add Samyama practice. Or, both. If it was both, then you would want to make only one change at a time, leaving a space of a few weeks between changes, so you can see what effect the changes have on the inner purification process, and make sure that you are still stable.
With Samyama, you will know when it is the right time to take that on when you have some degree of abiding inner silence present in the mind. This means that you are able to observe thoughts, feelings and sensory objects without getting caught up with them, becoming attached to them, or trying to push them away, and without identifying with them. Samyama works at the point of interaction between subtle feeling and stillness. This is why it is important to have abiding inner silence established already before taking on the practice. If you are not sure, then increasing meditation time could be the best bet for now. When inner silence cultivated through meditation becomes deep, samyama actually begins to become automatic during daily life anyway. So, Deep Meditation practice is really the key to samyama. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2024 : 8:36:11 PM
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This is super helpful, thank you!
Do I necessarily have to rest after DM ?
I?m often feeling light and rested after my sessions and I feel like getting up immediately. Is that normal? |
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Dogboy
USA
2281 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2024 : 12:48:15 AM
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Why give up those precious few minutes to soak in that spiritual tub?!  |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2024 : 3:33:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The sound vibration of the mantra can be both heard and felt within the body (and sometimes outside of the body), and the mantra can refine into simply a felt vibration. [...] It is the sound/ felt sense, that is purifying.
The same is the case if you find yourself visualising the letters of the mantra during meditation. Easily favour the sound vibration/ felt sense of the mantra, over the visualised form of the letters.
Is it correct practice to favour only the felt vibration ?
This is how I seem to get the best results! |
Edited by - qspadone on Sep 13 2024 3:37:42 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2024 : 3:42:55 PM
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Hi qspadone,
It is correct practice to favour the mantra with your attention every time you realise you are off it. The mantra may refine to become more fuzzy and less clearly pronounced, and may even refine to become a continuous sound, or simply a felt vibration. It is correct practice to favour it however it refines, as it is refining. Whenever you realise you are off the mantra, you can either pick it up with a clearer pronunciation, or at the level of refinement that it was at before you lost it, whichever is most comfortable for you.
The process of the refinement of the mantra is simply something that may happen during meditation, as we let the mantra go as it will. So, it is not something that is decided by the mind.
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2024 : 4:37:47 PM
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Hi Christi,
Edit: It seems I may be going the wrong way with favouring what I believe is the mantra having refined into simply a felt vibration in the body, because when I do this, I do not even focus on any mental sound, clear or fuzzy. I have overloaded in the past and yet continued practicing, sometimes intensely. I believe I should scale back DM time to a bare minimum (a few minutes a day) and see how that goes for a few weeks. Yesterday, I was literally bed ridden, dizzy and feeling physically weak after only 5 minutes of DM. I had to leave my workplace. I must admit that I have been doing SBP and samyama again. I will see if symptoms decrease overtime with scaling back to a bare minimum of a couple of minutes of DM twice a day, and take it from there. Right now, I have a lot of energy in my third eye and at the base of my skull and a lot of automatic neck stretches happening through the day. Lesson 355 - Deep Meditation Reminders covers what I believe I may be going through :
"It sounds like you are getting some delayed reaction from using a "full boat" of practices earlier. It can seem fine, but underneath a lot is being loosened - and then one day the dam breaks. This is why we add practices carefully one at a time, and give them plenty of time to stabilize before adding more (months at least, not days or weeks), so we will know what the effects of each practice will be over a longer period of time, and can navigate accordingly.
It will take a little while to settle down, but it will. Be sure to continue self-pacing and grounding as needed. Also keep in mind that bhakti and any other spiritual activities we are engaged in can aggravate an overload. So self-pacing reaches beyond the AYP practices alone.
Obviously, we'd like to be releasing our inner obstructions, but the pace we do it at is important, as too much at once can cause delays while we stabilize excessive energy flows. Keeping a balance between our practices and normal daily life is the key. When the two are kept in balance, spiritual progress can be very fast if we are fully active in the world.
If it is still too much release at the present duration of deep meditation, it is okay to back off more on practice time until things settle down.
Spinal Breathing can provide stabilization in some cases. You will not know for sure until you try a bit of it before deep meditation. See?Lesson 69?for more discussion on this.
The guru is in you."
I seem to be making things repeatedly harder for myself, not following advice that has previously been given to me (especially regarding self-pacing and overloading). This sucks. I actually have gathered a bullet point list of helpful stuff, but chose to ignore it. Here it is:
- Gradually build-up to 20 mns of DM over weeks or months for maximum comfort
- Cut back if excessive discomfort during daily activity (for instance: excessive automatic yoga (asanas, ...), restlessness, anxiety, distracting energy currents, tingles, itching, racing thoughts...)
- No need to push through purification symptoms to attain liberation
- You should always feel light and refreshed after meditation
- If still too much, scale back to breath meditation, or Passive Awareness Sitting.
- Avoid any spiritual practice other than grounding, outside of practice time.
- Avoid at all costs doing continuous (all throughout the day) spiritual practices.
- With being irritable due to overload, Yogani says: "don't take it out on your loved ones"
- Most importantly, observe whether the symptoms described earlier decrease - overtime (while staying away from spiritual practices)
- Yoga practices can have delayed effects.
- Less is more. |
Edited by - qspadone on Sep 13 2024 5:14:29 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2281 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2024 : 01:24:42 AM
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| Get outside. Let go of all energetic practices. I think it's a good idea of yours to start at the beginning, a few minutes of SBP and DM, and rest with your third eye to the ground, imagining it as a valve; build from there. There is no shame, no loss other than discomfort. You build back to stability in mindfulness. With a sense of silence comes stability. Discovering where you erred is an opportunity, inho. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2024 : 1:50:29 PM
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| Update: 24 hrs after cutting back to zero, symptoms are already starting to lessen in intensity. I'm now wondering two things: 1/ How do I know when I a stable for sure and can start reintroducing practices again safely? ; 2/ How can I make sure that I become aware that I am overloading, literally as soon as it is starting to happen, not several days or weeks down the line, should it happen again (and based on my experience, it most certainly will) ? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2024 : 3:20:59 PM
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Hi qspadone,
It sounds as if it would be good for you to take a few weeks of all spiritual practices, including reading any spiritual literature, or watching any spiritual videos. Make grounding your main focus during this time.
You will know when you are ready to start introducing practices again once you have been stable for some time. Even then, start to re-introduce practices very slowly, one at a time. Breathing meditation may be the best thing to start off with when you do go back to practices, remaining with that technique for at least 6-months. Gradually re-introducing other practices should be done one at a time, with several weeks between each practice, monitoring how it affects you and being ready to cut back again if needed.
Over time, you will gradually get better at noticing symptoms of overloading more quickly. |
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qspadone
France
29 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2024 : 11:13:58 AM
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Hi Christi,
Since I last posted, I was diagnosed with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), which is probably why I have been having so many difficulties in the workplace, and ever since I was a child. I am supposed to start taking psychostimulants anytime soon to treat it. I have now, more than ever, a strong desire to make deep meditation work, as I don't want to have to rely on medication forever.
In this forum thread, Yogani puts it like this :
quote:
Interestingly, while deep meditation does not involve the use of concentration, it gradually strengthens our ability to concentrate in daily activity. So this can be a good thing for those with ADD, or anyone who is looking for a way to increase their ability to concentrate.
Of course, it goes far beyond that. The cultivation of inner silence over time opens the doorway to the infinite in us, and ultimately produces "super-normal attention.
I have therefore decided to stick with Deep Meditation after having taken a long enough break for the discomfort to go away.
I also decided to jump straight to the third mantra enhancement, after following Yogani's advice given in Lesson 367 :
quote:
For those over-sensitive meditators who would like to try slowing down the rate of transcendence, the third enhancement of the AYP mantra is suggested. See Lesson 188and Lesson 369.
Taking on a mantra enhancement slows down the inward and outward flow of awareness in the mind during the procedure of deep meditation. If we are premature in taking on a mantra enhancement, it can feel like we have hit a brick wall, with awareness staying much on the surface of the mind. This is normal, and if we are shifting the gear to a longer mantra at the right time for us, the awareness will go in more slowly through a wider swath of the mind and nervous system. And likewise coming out.
For the over-sensitive meditator, jumping to the third enhancement will have the immediate effect of slowing down transcending and can bring some relief on excessive purification symptoms. It may be possible to increase meditation time from the few self-paced minutes we may be doing to 10 minutes or more without immediate discomfort.
The long mantra is worth a try for those who are inclined to stay with mantra meditation. No harm can come from it if we are engaged in prudent self-pacing. It can work for some as a long term meditation practice.
I must say that, after several days of trial and error, my routine (which comprises only twice daily 20 minutes of Deep Meditation) has produced some good results, which makes me hopeful that I can continue along with this current path. I will not make the same mistake that I did in the past, i.e. adding other practices before having spent at least a few months stabilizing my Deep Meditation routine. I want to build a strong foundation, this time around.
May I ask what the AYP recommendations/views regarding medical treatments (such as treatment for ADD) are?
Cheers,
Quentin |
Edited by - qspadone on Sep 25 2024 1:30:58 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4487 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2024 : 4:33:22 PM
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Hi Quentin,
Good to hear that you are doing well and have found stability with your practice.
I am not aware of any specific AYP recommendations on medical advice, but personally I would say it is best to follow medical advice given. |
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Mantra refinement
