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Rudy
Australia
6 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 12 2023 : 07:08:16 AM
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Hi everyone. So I have been practicing western style tantra and yoga for a couple of years but recently I feel like going more the traditional direction. I am even thinking to visit India although I have no idea where to go.
This site is really good. I gives me a good foundation. But when I read about classical tantra I get the feeling there is more to it. This site claims you do not need initiation for tantra but the texts I have read always claim you do and also you do need the personal grace of a guru.
Now I am even wondering what the classical initiation would be like. It is hard to find any references to it. I found this document that describes the initiation that some women received from a western "guru" who claims to be traditional. But these women accuse him of being abusive and the whole procedure seems very weird. Are these practices really happening in India? And are tantrik gurus always that abusive?
I know tantra is always stressing to be secret. But because of that it seems hard to judge what is genuine and what is not. And are tantrik gurus also abusive in India but get away with it because of the male dominated society?
Looking for someone who knows more about what is a real classical tantra initiation.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2023 : 12:13:38 PM
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Hi Rudy,
In the past, yoga and tantra were usually taught in a particular way. For someone to learn these things, they would first of all find a teacher (guru). They would then go through an initiation ceremony, where they would agree to take that teacher as their guru, and the guru agrees to take them as a student. They would also agree not to tell anyone what they learned, not even their parents, wife, husband, or children and often not even the other students in the school. These days, students sometimes even sign a document, which is effectively a non-disclosure agreement to say that they won't share what they learn. Sometimes the initiation ceremonies can include agreeing not to talk about any spiritual experiences that the student has, except with their teacher, or someone appointed by the teacher such as a swami in the temple. Initiation also often involves the student agreeing to follow the instructions given by the teacher.
The initiations exist to ensure that the transmission of knowledge goes only from the teacher to the student. It means that no one can learn anything second-hand, from a friend, or relative. This is done to avoid the teachings becoming distorted in transmission. There are various reasons for asking students not to talk about spiritual experiences. One reason is to avoid people becoming jealous, if they hear of others having amazing experiences that they have not had yet. Another reason is to avoid fear arising, if someone hears of painful or difficult experiences that others are having. And then there is a third reason, which is to avoid experience seeking. This is when people hear of beautiful or blissful experiences that others are having, and they adapt their own practice to try to create these experiences. So, there can be a lot of good reasons for asking people not to share spiritual experiences. The downside, of course, is that if people don't share experiences, then when something happens to someone, they may think that they are the only one going through it, or that it is not normal. People also often do not know what is going to come up for them in the future on the spiritual path. They have to simply trust the teacher.
So, this is the system that has been in effect for the most part for the last few thousand years. It is called the "guru-chela" system (teacher-disciple). It has it's advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that it relies on the guru being knowledgeable. If the teacher does not know something, and gives incorrect advice, then the student cannot get advice from somewhere else, unless they leave that guru. Another disadvantage is that the system is open to abuse. If a teacher has bad intentions, the system is set up to support abuse. The students have agreed to do what the teacher asks them to do and not to tell anyone else what this is, or to share their experiences with others. Because the system supports abusive situations, when abusive situations do arise, there is little to stop them from continuing.
One more disadvantage with the guru-chela system, is that people can become very reliant on their teachers. If their teacher goes out of town for a while, travelling, then they basically have to wait for them to get back, to learn what to do next, or to report any difficulties. If their teacher passes away, then they have to find a new teacher which can involve starting a new set of spiritual practices, as their new teacher will often insist that they do the practices that they teach.
As you know, with AYP we have a different system. In AYP the teachings are all open to everyone who wants to learn them. There is no initiation, and no agreements not to tell anyone what is being learned. We also do not have a ban on sharing experiences. The purity of transmission of the practices is preserved by the practices being available in writing, and public. AYP also does not rely on any one teacher knowing all the answers to every question. If one teacher does not know something, then another probably does. So, there is a pooling of knowledge. We do see both the advantages and disadvantages of sharing experiences happening in AYP. But, overall, I would say that it is good for people to know what happens on the spiritual path. If things like fear, or jealousy, or experience seeking arise, then we can deal with these things as and when they come up. It is not such a big deal.
In terms of teachers abusing students, my advise would be that if you see it happening, report it, and leave the situation. There is no need for teachers to abuse students. Quite often, in abusive spiritual situations, there will be people around the teacher, attempting to justify their abusive behaviour. There are often quite complicated dynamics involved including things like co-dependent relationships, where people don't want to see, or acknowledge, bad behaviour in their teacher. So, it is good to be aware of this, and not get caught up in it.
Fortunately, abusive teachers are rare. I studied in the guru-chela system for around 30-years, in Nepal, Thailand, Sri Lanka, India and the U.K. I had many teachers over those years, in various schools of yoga, and saw almost no instances of abusive teacher-student relationships. I studied with many amazing teachers who were working very hard and doing fantastic things to help people. With the internet, it tends to be the abusive teachers that get most of the publicity, because people like reading about scandals.
Christi
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2023 : 04:01:18 AM
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Very thorough answer  that gives me confidence in my chosen path. Rudy, when you find your inner guru, then abuse at that point is easy to witness and inquire about!  |
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Rudy
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2023 : 06:30:27 AM
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| Hi Christi, thanks for your reply. Yes I agree the system of AYP is very good. I think transparency and openness is probably better for our modern world. But still I am wondering, is initiation into tantra only an agreement between student and teacher? You say you studied with teachers, did you ever get a classical initiation into tantra? Are there still traditional teachers/gurus who give traditional initiations? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2023 : 12:54:04 PM
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Hi Rudy,
That is a difficult question to answer, because of the question of what "Tantra" is? I believe the word was not used to describe systems, or schools of yoga practice, until a few hundred years ago when the British used it to help them divide up different systems of yogic thought in Asian history.
Around the fourth, or fifth centuries AD, there was a development that took place within yoga. It was a development that had a number of aspects. These included things like placing more importance on the subtle body, and on chakras and nadis. Placing more importance on visualizations such as spinal breathing techniques. Placing more importance on pranayama and on the use of mantras. Placing less importance on things like strict celibacy, and on the niyamas (restraints) in general. Placing more emphasis on yoga as a householder path and making yoga more accessible to women. Allowing the use of sexual spiritual practices.
These are some of the developments that later came to be referred to as "tantra". These things all developed gradually, over hundreds of years, and in fact many of them had already been there before. Mantras had already been in use since the early days of yoga (1800 BC). Pranayama is mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali which could date back to the 2nd century BC. The Buddha was ordaining women as nuns in the 5th century BC.
So, the development of Tantra was not a particular thing that happened at a particular time and place. It also was not radically different than what came before. It was more of a leaning in a certain direction that took place in some schools. And the effects of this spread right across Asia, impacting Tibetan Buddhism, Chan Buddhism in China, Zen Buddhism in Japan, and it spread East to the countries just North of Thailand. It's influence also spread to many yoga schools and ashrams throughout India and it became the dominant form of yoga across India for quite a long time. Possibly as long as 1,000 years.
Of course a school can call itself a "Tantric" school. But then, you might find the same, or very similar practices being taught in the "Yoga" school down the street from that school.
I did receive initiation into a yoga ashram in South India about 20-years ago that taught tantric practices, but it did not refer to itself as a Tantric school. And I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement as part of that process.
Christi |
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Rudy
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2023 : 12:36:26 AM
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| Thanks Christi for your reply. It seems a fascinating world to discover. I like to visit India and find out more. Do you have any ashram/teacher recommendations? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2023 : 9:09:31 PM
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Hi Rudy,
I would say go and explore! See what you are drawn to. It is an incredibly varied place and things change fast. So, many places will be very different now than they were when I lived there.
One thing you will find is that you need to get beneath the surface. On the surface, India seems chaotic and disorganised. But it actually isn't. Everything has a natural order to it, and everything flows. But, it can take time to see that. It is one of the most spiritual countries on the Earth, as I am sure you know, and when you start to see the natural order of everything, you will also begin to feel the spiritual vibration which is everywhere.
Just two recommendations - Arunachala, which is a small hill next to a town called Tiruvannamalai in Tamil Nadu. The hill has a stronger spiritual vibration than anywhere else I visited in India. The other place is the Shri Mahabaleshwara Swami Temple in Gokarna, Karnataka. It houses the Atma Linga. They probably won't let you in to the temple, but the vibrations from the linga can be felt all around the temple walls. And it has got a great beach nearby! 
Christi |
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Rudy
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2023 : 12:39:58 AM
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| Thank you very much Christi for your suggestions! |
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Classical tantra initiation?
