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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 01:16:08 AM
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I just have to ask some questions about my situation concerning the info in these latest lessons, which I have read with great interest! Thank you, Yogani! I hope to be able to explore more around these issues and be of help with my failures and successes.
From what I intuitively feel, my background is this: a premature kundalini awakening with subsequent turmoil - found a great balancing effect from starting to use SB pranayama and AYAM meditation. Then experimented with other practices as well, went to satsangs with realized beings and boosted the system - always on the verge of overload and sometimes boiling over. Explored self-pacing and for most of the time there was a fairly comfortable balance. After some time, though, it became obvious that it had been too much during too long time and the sleeping effect hit hard, and the constant uncomfortable overload was a fact. It also became obvious that I'm oversensitive to meditation in addition to having had a premature K awakening.
At the moment, I'm in the "extreme" self-pacing situation, with meditation sessions on 1-2 min, mostly on AYAM, but sometimes only on breath.
The question I have, though, is around the actual building of inner silence and the refinement of the mantra. When reading the lesson on under-sensitive meditators I clearly recognize myself still being in the "clunky" stage of meditation, at least when it comes to the refinement of the mantra/breath. Not so much the other two factors (fixed patterns, pushing thoughts) although that can occur as well.
I had deeper meditations before, but since the constant uncomfortable overload became a fact and meditation time was decreased, there has been a regression to the clunky phase again as well. I can repeat AYAM pretty technically and even those shallow-on-the-surface-of-the-mind repetitions during 1-2 min cause nausea, breath sessations, irritability, pain etc etc...
Is that just a confirmation of extreme oversensitivity, or... and this is the key question:
- Am I not skilled enough in meditation to even start building inner silence?
If I constantly never manage to find stillness and increasing silence of mind during sessions - am I actually building any inner silence? Is it such a skewed effect, that the mantra only stimulates the energies, but not really creates any deep silence along with it?
It goes a long with this "double" situation I have mentioned elsewhere, where there can be looong breath sessations (both in and out of sessions) and very, very slow breathing, freezing and other symptoms of low metabolism - which is said to be accompanied with a calmer or silent mind (according to the supposed truth 'mind follows the breath'), but for me there is simultaneously a spinning mind and someone happily escaping presence by diving into believing stories...
In my everyday life, I have not experienced more "awareness", ability to stay present or being more emotionally stable, becoming more friendly towards others, having any bliss-like states or experiences etc etc (the commonly reported effects of transcending mind and opening the heart). On the contrary, "those were the days" when I felt that was developping slowly over time. Now, those effects seem greatly diminished. The only positive thing with the current development is that the automatic movements have diminished as well. What's left is a feeling of much energies moving in different ways, but causing discomfort and occasional moments of "being taken over" and spontaneously healing people etc..
The energy experiences can go on forever, right. It's the silence that makes a difference. Is it necessary to find those deeper levels or refinement of mantra? I know I can't force it to happen - what I mean is, is it necessary to have that happening before there can really be a deepening into silence? If so, is it the time in meditation that will support that? Are these 1-2 min the cause of that not happening?
I understood from the lessons that it is better in that case to either use mantra enhancement or focusing on breath in order to lengthen the time again, at least up to 10 minutes. Is it the time that is necessary for refinements to occur? Is it a waste of time to continue with 1-2 min?
And the last question: I have during all time kept the Spinal breathing, at least for a few breaths. I didn't know it was recommended to quit that totally. (Must have missed that one.) And I do feel that it still helps me balancing. Often there is so much energy stuck in the upper part of the body and head, and spinal breathing releases that energy/tensions, and helps me center a bit more. Is it still recommended to quit SB totally?
I hope my questions are clear, even though it was a long transport to get to them...  |
Edited by - emc on Nov 06 2009 02:07:31 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 05:44:55 AM
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Hi emc,
I was in the same situation few time ago.Only 5 mtes dm twice a day.It was a short practice and didnt feel very good with this short practice.Was really annoying.
I recomend you to stop sbp for the moemnt if you have all taht symptoms,and try to stick with long mantra dm.See how it goes for some weeks.Maybe ten minutes.
If you cant manage long mantra and feel overloaded i recomend you to begin with breath meditation.
I think 2 mtes of practice doesnt cultivate much inner silence...I think is better to do longer session,at least 8-10 mtes.In this way you can go deeper and enjoy more your meditations.
Breath meditation is an excelent tool for cultivate inner silence also.Is a powerful practice.
If you have too much energetic overload and imbalances,better to start with breath meditation.It cultivates much inner silence and balances and relax mind,body and energies very much.(And you can do longer sessions).
If you are having problems with ayp dm i think better to stick with breath,cz maybe you focus too much in dm and you loose your time and its a big distaction also.Try to change your meditation.You can work with the other ayp tools while using the breath.
I think mantra ayp is really powerful for you,cz you only can do 2 mtes.I think it will not help you very much.You have really little margin of practice and you are using a very powerful tool for your actual situation.
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Edited by - miguel on Nov 06 2009 05:52:53 AM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 07:34:17 AM
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| I second that breath meditation can be a good substitute to mantra. I had some problems with mantra meditation some time ago (my mind became fearful every time I sat to meditate, and just had to open my eyes and couldn't go in), and I started doing breath meditation instead, and can now go in for about 10-15 minutes, with no or very little overpurification symptoms during the day. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 08:53:51 AM
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Hi emc:
You have good suggestions from Miguel and Yonatan, both who have traveled a similar road.
In your case, it seems you went from normal sensitivity to over-sensitive. It is hard to know exactly why. Maybe you were wired for it from the start. Or maybe it was all the powerful additional things you did -- the "anything goes" approach. Maybe a combination of both.
In any case, there's no reason to cry over spilled milk. You have gained valuable experience. Now it is time to use what you have learned and move ahead. It will be alright.
While spinal breathing may have been a help earlier with kundalini, it may not be now with the over-sensitivity to deep meditation.
Cultivating inner silence is the priority, and it can't be done very well with such a short meditation practice. So, I suggest following the line in Lesson 367, and see how it goes.
Some feedback here from time to time will be helpful to everyone, and much appreciated.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 09:14:38 AM
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What I have experiened with AYP approach was the same. You have the best and most focused tools to clean the karmic inprints within the central channel.
And through cleaning and heating up the central channel, everything else is purified automatically. But as we live so intimate within city live, at least many of us, our side channels are never really clean. They have to bow to the more and more awakening centralchannel and create lots of resistance with effects like burning sensations and imbalances.
I know that in the long term, this technique may be completely unnessecary, but in my experience, it helps greatly to smooth out chaotic energies and mindmovements. And this is sloow alternate nostril breathing before spinal breathing. At least for me, the difference in smoothness, silence and general opening is tremendous.
Edit: I missed the link of Yogani =P Surely one of the big lessons many have waiting for. Thanks !
I thought that the mantra modification would be something like I AM NAMAH without any crown stimulation. But if the testers were content with the effects, great news :)
I hope that the uniqueness of AYP does stay. Many newcomers could be irritated with the option of doing the whole set of AYP practices with an alternate meditation type that is completely different. Perhaps the point that this is only for "if nothing else works and only a temporary smooth-out-trip" should be made clearer. |
Edited by - Holy on Nov 06 2009 11:00:36 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 11:18:36 AM
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Hi Holy:
I agree that 5-10 minutes of easy alternate nostril breathing pranayama can be calming before meditation, and an aid to those with unruly inner energy.
Whether alternate nostril breathing can help reduce over-sensitivity to deep meditation is another question. Or would it aggravate the situation, as spinal breathing can? Feedback on that is welcome.
The guru is in you.
PS: For over-sensitive meditators who find alternate nostril breathing to be a help, I'd suggest it instead of spinal breathing, not in addition to spinal breathing. One or the other. Or neither, if it doesn't help with stability in meditation.
PPS: The majority of practitioners will be able to follow the baseline AYP system. What we are discussing in Lessons 366-367 is extra measures for those who may be under or over-sensitive to deep meditation with mantra. Lesson 365 lays out the reality of a range sensitivities being observed, followed by specific suggestions in the next two lessons. Whether such measures turn out to be short term or long term solutions is not as important as finding the solutions for those who can use them. I am very happy to see such additions to the AYP toolbox.
It is much better than saying, "Gee, tough luck. There must be something wrong with you." Not true! We are all spiritually gifted. It is only a matter of finding what works best for each of us in self-directed practice. That's the mission.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 12:17:34 PM
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I and a friend of mine have done alternate nostril breathing without SBP + I AM for quite a while. Since that, nearly one year passed. The effect for me was, more silence in general, meaning more silence in between the mantra. Oversensitivity did not really dicrease, meditation even got more peaceful and deep. But with less friction and energy problems during the session and the day.
On the other side, why I and he did not continue that way, there is a limit you hit and nothing more happens from then on. A limit where alternate nostril breathing alone is not enough to deepen even further.
Alternate nostril breathing only starts to deepen further if all the side channels are cleaned through, the breath gets very slow and calm by itself and when both nostrils open for longer days, then the prana moves into the centralchannel out of itself more and more. But to reach this level only through alternate nostril breathing needs MUCH more than 10 minutes. It is more like 20-40 minutes at least twice a day together with breath retention. Even if this works great, it is very time consuming. And if you stop with the procedure even for some days or weaks, the side channels get filled with everyday impressions very fast. So the long term contribution to the central channel purification is much much more indirect and only gets to a good point if it is done for longer sessions till both nostrils open to a smooth and good degree and central channel activity happens out of itself.
If it comes to it, meditation afterwards get really deep with huge pratyahara and smooth coming out. But as said, it is very time consuming.
So the shift of doing both in lesser quantity was the best bet for me. Less friction in the overall system, more silence and depth in meditation and in SBP and good balance during the day. The sensitivity doesn't really decrease, there is even more refinement, but the smoothness makes this A LOT less of a problem.
I agree that people could try it out instead of SBP, but over the longterm one should focus on the techniques that rub out the long history within their spine. SO SBP+DM is really the best. For my bodily system, high populated city, much sensual input output, ANB became something like a must. Without it, I just remain on the surface of SBP and DM and if pushing these both alone, just burn and get breathing problems during the rest of the day. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2009 : 4:11:47 PM
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| Thanks everyone! |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2009 : 8:19:40 PM
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Hi emc :)
These are my opinions and do not necessarily reflect AYP standards and I sincerely hope that I don't offend anyone.
First off, I applaud your explorations into all the spiritual adventures that you have undertaken. I only wish that I had had the opportunity to do the same. The experience, insight and knowledge that you have gained sets you apart from many others. Remember that Buddha said not to take his word for anything, that it must be learned by one's self. :)
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I can repeat AYAM pretty technically and even those shallow-on-the-surface-of-the-mind repetitions during 1-2 min cause nausea, breath sessations, irritability, pain etc etc...
You are like a finely tuned race horse! Your kundalini/energy/prana follows your attention like lightning bolts!
quote:
Is that just a confirmation of extreme oversensitivity, or... and this is the key question:
- Am I not skilled enough in meditation to even start building inner silence?
Oversensitive for sure. You are super sensitive! Skilled? I think you are highly skilled.
quote:
If I constantly never manage to find stillness and increasing silence of mind during sessions - am I actually building any inner silence?
No, technically you aren't. Inner silence is not a form, it is formless. It isn't actually like building inner silence, because the inner silence is always there. Inner silence permeates every part of our existence. It is more like shedding the rest of the thoughts and distrations that cause 'attention' to be scattered. If you reduce your thoughts and calm your mind during meditation, and you carry that state into daily life, yes, you are going to up your chances of moments of inner silence. However, you can also simply pay attention to inner silence as it is always there, omnipresent, ever-pervading. But before you can, you need to be able to recognize it.
quote:
Is it such a skewed effect, that the mantra only stimulates the energies, but not really creates any deep silence along with it?
You know, I've had problems with recognizing inner silence with regards to mantra repetition for 2 years. Now I understand that the mantra is like a homing beacon that is supposed to blip once in a while, just enough to draw the attention inward. Then it relies on the mind's natural tendency to become still to produce inner silence. This has never worked for me with the I AM mantra. It did, however, work for me a few times when I was repeating the Bhuta Shuddhi mantra 108 times in one session... eventually the mind craters and shuts off. (That was back when I was still living in the world of forms..)
I didn't recognize inner silence until I heard Eckhart Tolle's bell ringing example found on his "Gateways to Now" CD. What he does is he rings a meditation bell and tells you to listen to it. As the ringing diminishes you naturally turn up your attention in order to keep listening to it. When the ringing sound finally died I found that there was a little patch of silence/stillness/presence where the ringing sound had been. As I practiced that intense listening by listening to Tolle's bell over and over again, I came to recognize silence and I also came to recognize that I could duplicate the silence through intense concentration. If I am out in nature, sometimes my love of the trees/leaves/forest precipitates a small visual area to become crystal clear and alive. To me, this is silence in action, or awareness becoming clearer. A satori moment!
quote:
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but for me there is simultaneously a spinning mind and someone happily escaping presence by diving into believing stories...
I'm not entirely sure how you are using the word 'spinning' here.
If the spinning is actually the area behind your brow in the front part of your head, then that spinning mind is your third eye. And yes, it will create thoughts, enable dreams and visions, causing the winds to stir and that is not a good thing to do if you are seeking inner silence. It does feel like a spinning area! There is also another spinning hole more towards the back of the head by the medulla. That hole leads to something that I describe as a black hole. Stay away from both if you are seeking inner silence. You will recognize inner silence after that fact because your mind will say "Oh my God, I wasn't thinking at all". If you look for it, it will ge gone. If you try to feel it, it will be gone. You have to be totally into it and then recognize it after that fact through memory.
quote:
In my everyday life, I have not experienced more "awareness", ability to stay present or being more emotionally stable, becoming more friendly towards others, having any bliss-like states or experiences etc etc (the commonly reported effects of transcending mind and opening the heart). On the contrary, "those were the days" when I felt that was developping slowly over time. Now, those effects seem greatly diminished. The only positive thing with the current development is that the automatic movements have diminished as well. What's left is a feeling of much energies moving in different ways, but causing discomfort and occasional moments of "being taken over" and spontaneously healing people etc..
It is wonderful that you can spontaneously heal people. It is a gift and I'm sure the people you are healing greatly appreciate the healing.
Stillness means "no energies moving". Those energies, or winds, stir up the mind and prevent the mind from being calm. Stillness is silence.
If you want more friends, be more friendly, if you want more love, love yourself, if you want more experiences, do more things. If you want to be enlightened, shed your desires, accept yourself as you are and say "yes" to all that is. Buddha said to be free of desire is to be free of suffering, and I can tell that you are suffering.
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The energy experiences can go on forever, right.
Yes they can. So can infinite thoughts if the mind is not calmed down to rest.
quote:
It's the silence that makes a difference.
To be able to see to the bottom of the ocean, the water must be perfectly calm and without sediment. (but we are the infinite sky..:)
quote:
Is it necessary to find those deeper levels or refinement of mantra?
No. Mantra is just a tool to help calm the mind and train attention. You can calm/stop/focus the mind using many different tools. Stopping/calming/focusing the mind occurs naturally in daily life, as Tolle explains. For example, the first time you see something you've never seen before, for the first second or two, your mind is silent. When you are taken by surprise, or shocked or somebody out of nowhere hits you, you are silent. But it doesn't last long. Learn to recognize it.
It is a misnomer that mantra repetition calms the mind all of the way. Eventually you have to let go of the mantra in order to realize a still mind because the mantra itself causes waves. And if your kundalini is active, the mantra causes big waves as you have found.
Meditation helps calm the mind, reduce thoughts and the whole process empowers the mind. You might succeed in stilling the mind during meditation, you might not. If, after meditation, when you focus your attention on something, the results are much more empowered. You could use that mental empowerment and focus on inner silence, if you wanted. You could also use that empowerment and ask yourself "what is the earliest thought I can remember" and end up checking out your previous lives.
The thing that I am confounded about is that enlightenment is supposed to be indescribable. You cannot grasp it with mind. If you cannot grasp enlightenment with the mind, how you can describe what the ingredients to enlightenment are? To reduce enlightenment to words, descriptions, ingredients is a meaningless game. Many buddhists have refered to that aspect of Buddha's teachings.
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I know I can't force it to happen - what I mean is, is it necessary to have that happening before there can really be a deepening into silence?
The silence is always there, you simply have to train your attention to focus on it for longer periods of time. For example, as Tolle suggests, intead of looking at the forms that occupy space, look at the space. Listen for the silence in everyday activities. There is lots of it there. All forms and sound are born from silence/presence and eventually all forms and sound return to silence/presence. It's just a matter of shifting your perspective. It is easily trainable.
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If so, is it the time in meditation that will support that? Are these 1-2 min the cause of that not happening?
Time spent in meditation may or may not affect deepening of silence. It depends what you do during meditation, or more precisely, what you don't do. One time, I simply sat down, took one deep breath, saw a sun in the third eye and started to cook. Large flames. All in under one minute..
Like I say elsewhere, first learn to recognize deep silence. You will be able to determine the times by yourself.
quote:
I understood from the lessons that it is better in that case to either use mantra enhancement or focusing on breath in order to lengthen the time again, at least up to 10 minutes. Is it the time that is necessary for refinements to occur? Is it a waste of time to continue with 1-2 min?
There is no prescribed formula for length of time spent during meditation and the realization of inner silence. I know that the AYP teachings say that the inner silence will bleed out into your daily activities, and I find that this is the case, especially right after a deep concentrative meditation session. However, Everyone is different and most people don't even understand what silence it. Inner silence is sometimes called presence/God/oneness/awareness/love.. There are even some buddhist teachings that say that inner silence is simply stopping the voices in your head from speaking, and that stopping the voices is a preliminary step to meditation, that is all.
quote:
And the last question: I have during all time kept the Spinal breathing, at least for a few breaths. I didn't know it was recommended to quit that totally. (Must have missed that one.) And I do feel that it still helps me balancing. Often there is so much energy stuck in the upper part of the body and head, and spinal breathing releases that energy/tensions, and helps me center a bit more. Is it still recommended to quit SB totally?
Spinal breathing is complex procedure that is accomplishing many things at one time. For one, yes it does tend to balance out energy flows. It also stimulates the root and lower tan tien to release prana (more energy). The sambhavi and root lock stimulates the ajna and muladhara chakras. It also has an aspect which is the main foundation of meditation in it, which is "learning to control the attention", breaking the tendency to look at what our attention is pointing to. This is key, because that little speck of attention is all we are. It is that which creates the universe. It is that which, for most people, flits about uncontrollably. Spinal breathing is a very powerful practice and I think it is really important, as Yogani says, to start simple in it, then add the extras after becoming stable in the basic practice for a long time.
emc, the main purpose of meditation (and perhaps all practices) is to train your attention. Sure, there is ecstasy in the root, love in the heart, endless creation in the crown and magic and mystery in the brow, but if you don't train your attention, you might never realize.
The key to all teachings is "attention". It does not matter how you train your attention, just so that the end result is that you gain full control of your attention, can focus it and sustain it indefinately. Continuous attention on one object produces samadhi. Continuous attention is what causes enlightenment. The mantra is a simple method of training attention as the mind and attention have a natural tendency to be attracted to motion. A mantra is motion. So is breathing. The thing that percieves motion is in itself, totally still. Stillness is God. It is everywhere. The world of form comes and returns into stillness.
If you train your attention gradually the ability to perform extended periods of consecutive attention will grow. Eventually you can place it on anything you'd like, whether that be stillness or ecstasy, or the light, or infinite space, or God and remain there! That is the key.
There is one secret about all of this too. It is easier to focus attention on something we like or love. That is why we often lose ourselves when we fall in love, because the object of our love draws our attention away uncontrollably. That is why, for example, Ajahn Brahm refers to the stage of breath meditation when you are actually enjoying the feeling of breathing, as the "the beautiful breath". If you like something or it feels good, the mind (and attention) have an easier time remaining focused on it.
So, this is my advice to you:
1) Learn what inner silence is. Learn to recognize it.
2) Learn some practices that produce that inner silence. It doesn't matter if the practice is short or long, like ringing a bell and following it back into silence, or watching yourself when something startles you.
3) Try a practice and see if you can recognize that same silence in it. If the silence causes kundalini to activate, which is always an indicator for me, and you don't like it or don't want to deal with it, don't do the practice. Instead, work on practices that train your attention. Focus on external objects and practice sustaining attention.
The other thing I was going to mention, and I'm serious here, is this:
Learn about Kunlun. Kunlun is the practise of gathering prana (you could probably skip that part) and then setting up an involuntary body reflex like bouncing your legs. Doing so cleanses, activates and balances the ida and pingala paths on each side of the sushumna, eventually causing their winds to collapse and then enter the sushumna. It is a powerful practice and will activate your kriyas. However!!! And this is really important, you will learn, in level one, how to close down. You will learn how to stop the kriyas and take that energy and store it in your lower tan tien, where it will be safe!! You will learn how not to be a victim of your kriyas.
The Kunlun closedown is to sit with a smile on your face, both palms of the hands are placed over the lower tan tien just below the navel and you do nothing else. Do this for twenty minutes. I sincerely believe that learning how to activate the energies consciously and then shut them down consciously is something you will have to learn how to do. Again, this is my advice and my opinion, take it or leave it.
I hope your horse is doing well.
:)
TI
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2009 : 9:28:46 PM
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OMG Tibetan_Ice, what a post =P I had similir experiences, but mixing up too many thinks randomly didn't work for me either. Staying with something that works and deepening that seem to have the only chance to go on till the end.
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Edited by - Holy on Nov 09 2009 9:46:09 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 01:53:42 AM
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quote:
emc, the main purpose of meditation (and perhaps all practices) is to train your attention. Sure, there is ecstasy in the root, love in the heart, endless creation in the crown and magic and mystery in the brow, but if you don't train your attention, you might never realize.
T_I, Thanks for a long and nice post. You write many nice reminders, but this section quoted above caught me, and made me really, really sad...
You see, I have done the meditation like I brush my teeth! That's the expression that has been used sooo many times here in forum, and I really take things litterally! I can't read between the lines. I don't practice to get my teeth clean two times a day. I just brush and they become clean. I thought it was the same thing with the mantra. Just repeat it, come back to it gently and then drop all reasons and thinking about why you meditate. I have not had ANY purpose of practicing attention during meditation.
I have understood that energy is friction and that Shakti will come in and do her job. I thought this friction actually would clean the system and facilitate stillness to take over more and more. Now I understand these energetics and Shakti cleansings can go on forever - we don't necessarily become cleaner just by default.
Two major misunderstandings, because I just hooked on some details and never got the whole picture. And because I got the ride for free in the beginning. I must have been sailing on others depths and was open enough to just tune into them, so meditation got very deep without any practicing of keeping the attention on the mantra. I just dived into the Blackness/silence anyway.
So many years in vain, then. I suddenly lost all motivation to go on.
Life keeps putting the volume up when it comes to energies, and I can't do anything about it. I don't have enough stillness to handle it, and with the level of motivation I have now it may very well take many years before I even bother to meditate again - if it's supposed to be some sort of achievement of silencing the mind and training or a skill of keeping attention that I have to practice. I have never been interested in that. I am not a seeker in that way, willing to take up methods to get enlightened. I (mind) never chose this spiritual journey, I was thrown into it, and then hijacked by realized beings. Thought it was cool, now when it's fading, I'm left with a long nose. That's my feeling. Like a bad commercial trick has been played upon me - first they let you have a free trial, then they take the candy away and you have to start paying... I'm far to lazy for that. But then comes the aftermath... if you don't pay, you will be haunted by reminders, pushed again and again to pay, salesmen calling at unconvenient times harrassing you... That's what the energies are doing, haunting me, causing turmoil, forcing me to continue to meditate to at least keep up some stillness, or they promise to create hell for me...
Nope, can't say I like this set up. Sorry to be a whining victim here. I am very well aware of that it's a victim playing out. No advice needed on that part. Thank you. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 4:22:45 PM
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quote:
You see, I have done the meditation like I brush my teeth! That's the expression that has been used sooo many times here in forum, and I really take things litterally! I can't read between the lines. I don't practice to get my teeth clean two times a day. I just brush and they become clean. I thought it was the same thing with the mantra. Just repeat it, come back to it gently and then drop all reasons and thinking about why you meditate. I have not had ANY purpose of practicing attention during meditation.
Hi emc
This is exactly right, in my view.
Meditation is another paradox. We sit for some sort of purpose, otherwise we wouldn't bother. Once we sit however, we drop the purpose and just continue -as you say - like brushing your teeth.
Development of attention is happening on it's own, like all the other stuff. Each time we come back to the mantra, our attention is being trained and the associated neuron pathways are forming in the frontal lobe regions - or maybe that's too much info!!.
Sitting without any purpose, desire for an outcome, agenda or expectation is the way to go - rock on emc!! |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 4:45:30 PM
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Thank you very much, Louis!
Just a little negative protest, though : "Development of attention is happening on it's own" is obviously what has not happened when meditation has been self-paced down to 1-2 min and kept shallow on a mind-level due to too strong energies forming with the mantra... and the "skill" of going into silence can also obviously disappear over time instead of deepen.
I wouldn't bother going into meditation, if I didn't feel forced to, because I lack any other method to keep my life from running havoc from the energies. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 9:49:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
quote:
emc, the main purpose of meditation (and perhaps all practices) is to train your attention. Sure, there is ecstasy in the root, love in the heart, endless creation in the crown and magic and mystery in the brow, but if you don't train your attention, you might never realize.
T_I, Thanks for a long and nice post. You write many nice reminders, but this section quoted above caught me, and made me really, really sad...
Don't be sad. It was just a thought. It might not even be true! After all, there are many paths to realization (one of which is Divine Grace) and even more paths to experiences!
And I do sympathize with your energy predicament. Every time I hit even a 1/2 second of deep silence, my kundalini starts to respond and it distracts me. But nothing like yours..
It sounds like your pain body has come out for an extended visit! Have you ever read or listened to any Eckhart Tolle? I think Eckhart Tolle is the world's best therapist. He gave me the tools and understanding that my thoughts were not me. He helped me put space in between 'me' and my depressed suicidal thoughts, my extremely stressful work life and my raging anger. He helped me to realize that I am not my thoughts. And he makes me laugh too. :)
There is a little story that Ajahn Brahm tells that kind of reminded me of you. It is about the mule and the carrot...
A long time ago, the Buddhist monks had great difficulty in getting the tibetan mules to pull carts. They only way they figured out how to get the mule to pull a cart was by stringing a carrot on a pole and hanging the carrot a foot or two in front of the mule. This worked for a while. The mule would see the carrot and madly charge towards it, pulling the cart along. But this behaviour never resulted with the mule actually getting the carrot. The tibetan mule, as smart as it was, eventually figured it out. One day, the mule charged full steam ahead and then stopped. When the mule stopped, the carrot swung away even further. The mule waited patiently. Gradually, the carrot swung back around, the mule just opened it's mouth and the carrot popped in! (That why you can't get a tibetan mule to pull a cart these days..)
Sometimes spiritual development can be like that (so they say). If you want to stop, then stop. Maybe this is your chance to let go, to really let go. Have you ever tried just sitting and doing nothing? No trying, just letting go? No diving into anything, no energy flows, just become still like a mountain..
Here is a quote from Patanjali (from Chip Hartranft):
quote:
Both practice and non-reaction are required to still the patterning of consciousness.Practice is the sustained effort to rest in that stillness. And this practice becomes firmly rooted when it is cultivated skillfully and continuously for a long time. As for non-reaction, one can recognize that it has been fully achieved when no attachment arises in regard to anything at all, whether perceived directly or learned.
Here is some more from Patanjali:
quote:
Sickness, apathy, doubt, carelessness, laziness, hedonism, delusion, lack of progress, and inconstancy are all distractions which, by stirring up consciousness, act as barriers to stillness. When they do, one may experience distress, depression, or the inability to maintain steadiness of posture or breathing. One can subdue these distractions by working with any one of the following principles of practice.
Consciousness settles as one radiates friendliness, compassion, delight, and equanimity toward all things, whether pleasant or painful, good or bad.
Or by pausing after breath flows in or out.
Or by steadily observing as new sensations materialize.
Or when experiencing thoughts that are luminous and free of sorrow.
Or by focusing on things that do not inspire attachment.
Or by reflecting on insights culled from sleep and dreaming.
Or through meditative absorption in any desired object.
One can become fully absorbed in any object, whether vast or infinitesimal.
As the patterning of consciousness subsides, a transparent way of seeing, called coalescence, saturates consciousness; like a jewel, it reflects equally whatever lies before it - whether subject, object, or act of perceiving.
Ok, this next one is a long one, but if you want 'experiences', here is how (but you'll have to train your attention to have "perfect discipline").
quote:
Focusing with perfect discipline on friendliness, compassion, delight, and equanimity, one is imbued with their energies.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the powers of an elephant, or other entities, one acquires those powers.
Being absorbed in the play of the mind’s luminosity yields insight about the subtle, hidden, and distant.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the sun yields insight about the universe.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the moon yields insight about the stars’ positions.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the polestar yields insight about their movements.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the navel energy center yields insight about the organization of the body.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the pit of the throat eradicates hunger and thirst.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the ‘tortoise channel’, one cultivates steadiness.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the light in the crown of the head, one acquires the perspective of the perfected ones.
Or, all these accomplishments may be realized in a flash of spontaneous illumination.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the heart, one understands the nature of consciousness.
Experience consists of perceptions in which the luminous aspect of the phenomenal world is mistaken for absolutely pure awareness. Focusing with perfect discipline on the different properties of each yields insight into the nature of pure awareness.
Following this insight, the senses - hearing, feeling, seeing, tasting, smelling - may suddenly be enhanced.
These sensory gifts may feel like attainments, but they distract one from integration.
By relaxing one’s attachment to the body, and becoming profoundly sensitive to its currents, consciousness can enter another’s body.
By mastering the flow of energy in the head and neck, one can walk through water, mud, thorns, and other obstacles without touching down, but rather floating over them.
By mastering the flow of energy through the solar plexus, one becomes radiant.
By focusing with perfect discipline on the way sound travels through the ether, one acquires divine hearing.
By focusing with perfect discipline on the body’s relationship to the ether, and developing coalesced contemplation on the lightness of cotton, one can travel through space.
When consciousness completely disengages from externals - the ‘great disembodiment’ - then the veil lifts from the mind’s luminosity.
By observing the aspects of matter - gross, subtle, intrinsic, relational, purposive - with perfect discipline, one masters the elements.
Then extraordinary faculties appear, including the power to shrink to the size of an atom, as the body attains perfection, transcending physical law.
This perfection includes beauty, grace, strength, and the durability of a diamond.
By observing the various aspects of the sense organs - their processes of perception, intrinsic natures, identification as self, interconnectedness, purposes - with perfect discipline, one masters them.
Then, free from the constraints of their organs, the senses perceive with the quickness of the mind, no longer in the sway of the phenomenal world.
Once one just sees the distinction between pure awareness and the luminous aspect of the phenomenal world, all conditions are known and mastered.
When one is unattached even to this omniscience and mastery, the seeds of suffering wither, and pure awareness knows it stands alone.
Even if the exalted beckon, one must avoid attachment and pride, or suffering will recur.
Focusing with perfect discipline on the succession of moments in time yields insight born of discrimination.
This insight allows one to tell things apart which, through similarities of origin, feature, or position, had seemed continuous.
In this way, discriminative insight deconstructs all of the phenomenal world’s objects and conditions, setting them apart from pure awareness.
Once the luminosity and transparency of consciousness have become as distilled as pure awareness, they can reflect the freedom of awareness back to itself.
Can you see why training your attention to focus and extend for longer periods of time might be beneficial?
I think you do realize, as I do that there are two components to enlightenment. One is the dissolution of the small self, the ego, and that dissolves into silence/presence/God etc. The other component is the energetic side, which you seem to have going for you more so than many. You're half way there. If you want to quit, fine. If you want to stop, fine. I'm sure your inner guru knows what is best for you at this stage, so quit beating yourself up about it and start listening to her. What is, is. Don't take your thoughts so seriously, they are not you.
Have you ever listened to any Eckhart Tolle?
And, here is another suggestion. Sometimes the best way to free a lot of blockages is to shake. Go out dancing. Or, just shake that body! Have some fun.
I have a lot more suggestions, but that's only because I have an unlimited imagination.. :)
Good luck.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 9:59:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
OMG Tibetan_Ice, what a post =P I had similir experiences, but mixing up too many thinks randomly didn't work for me either. Staying with something that works and deepening that seem to have the only chance to go on till the end.
Hi Holy, :)
I'm very glad that you've found what works for you.
:)
TI |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2009 : 01:47:57 AM
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Hi T_I,
Yes, I'm familiar with Tolle. I'm self-pacing right now, though, and that means no spiritual books, music, listening to satsangs etc. I even try to hang out here on forum minimum of time... So Tolle will have to wait.
Unfortunately I can't self-pace masters coming visiting. I had one sharing a dinner a couple of days ago with subsequent energetic mysteries, miracles and temporary openings. (Yes, litterally taking a seat beside me an my friend having dinner.)
Patanjali rules! Thanks for the nice quotes.
I just love to dance, but unfortunately, dance is tricky as well. This is what I wrote recently to someone in a mail: "If I dance from my mind it gets to be exercise, but since I'm so used to going into automatic movements, it often flips over to that and I can get extremely boosted and I end up going around the dance floor giving everyone blessings and sometimes people line up for hugs... or I go into masses of mudras and yoga positions, prayer poses etc etc... and get totally anti-social and withdrawn into what's going on inside... and I become "the freak"... I try not to do that and it takes a great deal of effort to resist, and I wonder why I go to such activities if I can't be myself and follow what's happening...
I sometimes start dancing at home, though, and I often get speeded from it instead of relaxed..."
But I will try it tonight. There's dancing tonight at the local meeting place. Wish me luck! 
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2009 : 10:05:13 AM
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Hi emc,
I agree with Louis and meditation is more about "letting go" than anything else from my perspective. Thoughts come, we let them go returning to the mantra. Attention automatically improves as there are less energetically charged thoughts to distract us.
Hope you find your balance again! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2009 : 8:27:12 PM
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Hi Emc
I feel for you ......am very familiar with how frustrating the overloads can be.
I'm weird ....but you know.....have never thought of meditation as a way of training attention. But yes of course.....attention is a quality of the mind.....and yes....attention gradually does get more focused because of the meditation practice....
hmmm......maybe also because the intention behind it changes along the way.....
Here it is the sacredness....the holiness.... that is the pull and the "reason" for sitting. This too....the feeling of sacredness......developed over time. But everything started with the "brushing of the teeth" attitude.....almost 25 years ago now. The falling in love with silence happened many years before the Kundalini arose here .....
Nobody told me that either falling in love with something formless....or that the rise of someting called Kundalini... was possible....so I luckily never knew to expect it at the time.
But after the rise of the Kundalini......the surges.....all the new information through books......I too landed in the land of overload. I wanted you see. And the overload seemingly made it difficult to "be with my beloved". But it never dawned on me at the time...that the "problem" with the overloads....was also underlining....highlighting the "wanting". It made the wanting visible......And in that.....a gradual grinding down of the personal will takes place. Before this.....I carried the idea that my beloved was somehow limited to times of meditation...times of stillness...times of quiet. Times that were set off to meet himher.
The highlighting of the wanting itself....this happened in confluence with similar situations...yearning for what was not to be had........ in "my" everyday life.....
Heart transmits a message....always the same message....through the repeated pain encountered when succumbing to expectations and attachments...."my way"...instead of "thy will be done".....and also through the joy of staying as I am and not succumb to whatever is at hand to tempt me away from myself.... And this includes avoidance as a way of escaping. It also includes forcing "right behaviour". In this embracing of myself as I am...warts and all....heart....is gradually getting its silent message through.......
It finally dawned here....that no wanting ever experienced and acted on...... ever led to peace. Not even the wanting for God. Not even the wanting to be free of this wanting. The non-doing of the meditation practice facilitates the ability to let go. But....in not being able to meditate when in overload....the wanting it to be different can also be let go of. In this way....not being able to meditate facilitates the aspect of devotion...of surrendering ones own will. Whenever the want surfaces.....in whatever situation...in whatever version.....i stop.....get filled with it...stay still......and is emptied of it the same way.
All....absolutely all....is in the hands/heart of inner silence.
In that....accepting..... letting go of even the formless "object of devotion"..... letting go of inner silence as something to be had.... it has been very difficult that (read resistance)....but once it is honoured...the difficulty dissolves......
Right before this shift.... I went through the exact same difficulty in having to let go of someone I love. When love happens.....heart recognizes it as precious. Yet.......the tendency to want to have it....is exactly what "removes" it. Since in wanting...the heart is not calm. In calmness...the love returns. And it is the love that matters.....the love inside you.
Calmness is all. You can still be calm emc. Outside meditation. Even if you feel inner silence is not prevalent. It is fully possible, and you are calm more often than you are aware of. It is very simple...so it is easily overlooked. Calmness is simply to be ok with whatever is happening/not happening. This includes all the rigmarole of the mind.....all the stories...all the signs that makes mind tell the story of non-calmness. Let it be as it is. And simply go about your life. Stay calm. You are never abandoned
The quiet quiet devotion.....it happens in calmness. And calmness happens when nothing is expected. And the "nothing is expected" happens when one sees the truth of the wanting. It is like having been wind up for years and years....and then finally tasting the fact that it is the winding itself that is "in the way" of intuiting the holiness everywhere. Not the thoughts...not the emotions....but the wanting that glues the attention to what is not calm. Once getting a taste of the sacredness though....nothing can ever be seen in the same way. I may continue to fool myself....I can succumb to yet another wanting....but deep down....I will know that I am not true in this action. No action of "mine" is ever true. And to what extent this is seen....to this extent it is crucial to act in accordance with that truth.
And then there is intention....... And the intention has gradually changed here. From intending everything that was about "me" and "my life".....enlightenment included......to intending nothing at all.....yet still be willing to practice....and this included the self-pacing........and through that.... devotion was slowly born.
So.... from many intentions....down to one single intention....and then that too is dissolving.......since a calm heart is seen to be so crucial.....
Hence the brushing the teeth analogy......we are calm when we leave ourselves in peace. When relaxed.
Patanjali says:
quote:
As the patterning of consciousness subsides, a transparent way of seeing, called coalescence, saturates consciousness; like a jewel, it reflects equally whatever lies before it - whether subject, object, or act of perceiving.
This jewel...this gem.....is before attention. It is what makes attention possible. It is what makes intention coherent. It is pure awareness...it is divine love....and it is looking at you.... from you emc. But do not concern yourself with that right now. Stopping meditation for a while sounds like the right thing. Give yourself a break. Nothing is lost....you will be called to sit again.
I second Louis and Andrew.....Development of attention is happening on its own. So is devotion. In gradually letting go....it is gradually revealed. In fully letting go...it is fully revealed. Yet...all is in the hands of God/That/the Beloved.
What has helped immensly.....is walking in nature. Talking to ordinary people about ordinary things...in the grocery shop......on the train.....the bus driver....there are always people who addresses us.
Hugging trees. Lots of hugging trees. Standing with the back against their stems....
Having that ordinary office job also helped a lot.....
Could never stop meditation completely for more than 4 days. After that the crown would start acting up...so usually had to do 2 breaths of Pranayama...to set the route....and then sit for 5 minutes. Rest for 15 minutes...and then immediately get up and be active in one way or another. Same thing when surges come when in overload......instead of drowning inwards...will have to get up and be active.
All will be ok emc.....this too shall pass. And all through it....all is well....even though judged to seemingly not be.
Singing.....have you tried that for balance?
Singing is always wonderful here..... So is playing the flute and the piano. It is always grounding.....
If you cannot dance.....how about using your hands in some ways? Do you draw? Paint?
Emroidering and knitting...both of those provide grounding here....
quote:
So many years in vain, then
Nothing....absolutely nothing of what we go through is in vain. The first step of the journey is just as crucial as the last step...and all the steps in between. A backward step may take you onto a route never seen had it not been for that stepping back.
Motivation to go on will return emc. All goes on anyway
It will be different when it comes back....that's all.....love is working its mysterious ways with us......luckily whether we are aware of it or not
Much love to you
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2009 : 3:02:41 PM
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Thank you Anthem and thanks for sharing, Katrine!
I agree it's difficult to quit meditating totally. I can't. Now I do breathing meditation, but sometimes lying down in order to keep the energies from going to the crown, which happens easily when I sit straight.
Singing. Yes! That works better than dancing. And there's a longing for knitting! I started knitting again last fall, now it's calling again! Thank you for the reminders!
quote:
Once getting a taste of the sacredness though....nothing can ever be seen in the same way. I may continue to fool myself....I can succumb to yet another wanting....but deep down....I will know that I am not true in this action. No action of "mine" is ever true. And to what extent this is seen....to this extent it is crucial to act in accordance with that truth.
True, but what's the consequence if you don't act in accordance with it? It's crucial... for what?
Much love to you too, Katrine! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2009 : 4:21:42 PM
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quote:
Once getting a taste of the sacredness though....nothing can ever be seen in the same way. I may continue to fool myself....I can succumb to yet another wanting....but deep down....I will know that I am not true in this action. No action of "mine" is ever true. And to what extent this is seen....to this extent it is crucial to act in accordance with that truth.
quote:
True, but what's the consequence if you don't act in accordance with it? It's crucial... for what?
For suffering less.
For greater relaxation......expanded openness......peace and calm.
Nisargadatta once responded when someone said "I am experiencing suffering":
No. You are not experiencing suffering. You are suffering your experience
If I know something to be true...yet act as if it isn't...then I will keep going in circles....keep getting stuck in either avoidance or attachment.....but reality is what it is all the same. It will keep attracting what it needs in order to wake up to itself. There really is no escape from it. So...sooner or later.....I will be faced with a similar situation....and the lesson will get significantly harder and harder until I get the message.....accept....and surrender my will to that without which nothing would be experienced at all.
Knit away emc - while singing *lol* 
Slainte |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2009 : 04:28:19 AM
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Yes, then you are describing the same as in the metaphore I used in a post above, of it being like a classical commercial trick set up. Enlightenment by force... "Be still, or else..." LOL!!! The only thing to do then is probably to knit and sing a trudelutt!
Tjohej!
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2009 : 10:40:38 AM
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emc, why is your metabolism so low? Was it always low before you started spiritual practices? What do you put it down to?
It sounds to me like you had no inner silence practice and then kundalini erupted. So what do you do? What did Gopi Krishna do? He went around to gurus and got no help.
Do you pray to God? I just wonder if this might help.
I don't understand the instructions to self pace because whatever stage you are at you have to pick up from there again later. I have no qualifications to help you out. I am not a yoga practitioner really. But all i can say is i wonder how praying to God comes in here. What do you think you will do? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2009 : 01:01:48 AM
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Yoga and meditation lowers the metabolism. We have many topics on that in forum - just use the search engine.
I pray a lot. And I am always answered. Would I ever let myself down? 
It's a very strange self-pacing period. It was supposed to contain withdrawal of all spiritual activities, spiritual friends etc, going into work, moving to the countryside, spending time with a horse to ground, ground, ground in nature and with much physical work. Life thinks that the self-pacing period also should contain pulling up and opening wounds from the past to heal - at a speed never seen before! The most horrible cleansing sessions are occurring all the time, new wounds being opened, just like Katrine mentions above - worse and worse until I'm knocked down to surrender. Just finished one layer, the next one is pulled up by external events. I must use The Work more than ever to cope with the challenges! I have seldom had so much releases and openings which brings Shakti to go havoc. When the worst cleasnings seem to be over, life presents me with a tantric meeting and is urging me to surrender into that even more - OR ELSE... Well, you know... the suffering will grow worse. ON TOP of all that I'm doing extremly lot of physical work, spending time with horse etc etc... it's 4 hours in the stable every day after 8 hrs of work... This body-mind system is getting just about what it can take right now... Very strange self-pacing period. We never get what we want, do we? I'm truly trying to "have it my way" and ignore stuff, but it seems I have no choice when "thy will" takes over... |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2009 : 08:12:29 AM
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What i meant by metabolism is that you have said before that your heart rate goes down to about 50 ish BPM, perhaps more? And so this peaks my interest because most people have an average heart rate of 72 BPM and when they meditate or rest their respiration can drop to almost 2 breaths per minute. It stands to reason (at least to me) that if your metabolism is lower than average that you will breathe less when you meditate moreso than a lot of other people. Hence i was interested in trying to find out why your metabolism seems lower than normal, because it can't be down to meditation and yoga - if the studies done on meditation are anything to go by.
Also, the automatic yoga thing grabs my attention because aside from a few videos on Youtube i haven't seen any evidence of this phenomena. I am inclined (you know me!) to be sceptical of this. How do you know that these automatic movements aren't self hypnosis?
And you mention tantra a lot, as in sexual relationships with others. Are you part of a tantric group? For the life of me i cannot understand how someone can get so much sex from different people in any normal circumstances. I must be missing out on something.
I don't mean to sound off by asking these personal questions. I am just interested in your experiences because they seem so extreme and otherworldly.
Another thing about the atuomatic yoga movements is there only seems to be a few videos, mainly by the same person, on the internet claiming to demonstrate them. When i have looked at these videos i have got the impression that it is a scam. One of them was so lame i actually felt sad for the people involved and angry that such a scam exists. Those people are behaving very strangely as if they are hypnotised, and this swami woman involved is deceptive in my opinion. I would like to elaborate on this but my post will not pass the screening process, which is unfortunate.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2009 : 4:16:09 PM
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I'm very sorry, gumpi, but I'm not going there with you this time. I hope your sceptical period will pass soon, as it has done many times before.
Love, emc |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2009 : 8:40:33 PM
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You can never really prove the validity of any experience. And for the most part, people are not really interested in proving anything.
People follow this path because they are interested in where it leads. Then they continue because they like where it is going.
It's like someone who body surfs a big wave, then upon walking out of the water a stranger wants them to prove it was fun before he will try it. The stranger says "How do you know it was really fun, and you are not being fooled?"
The body surfer had a good time, and isn't interested in why, or in analyzing the situation.
The skeptic keeps asking for more input before he will get in the water.
The surfers aren't into giving energy to a skeptic.
The skeptic thinks that proves their experiences are a scam.
Scams are pretty easy to identify: A scammer asks you to give up something valuable and promises something illusory in return. Nobody asks you to give up anything here. Even meditation time: that's YOUR time and nobody benefits from it but you.
Let's play the devil's advocate for a minute and imagine people are fooling themselves into believing all this spiritual stuff, and bliss, ecstacy, peace, improvements in their lives,
loss of fear and anxiety, etc.
What's the difference between BELIEVING you feel good, and really feeling good?
It's an interesting concept to ponder.
Here's a clue: How can you tell you are awake and not dreaming right now?
There is a way to tell. . . it has to do with the passing of time, and what you do with your time.
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