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Originally posted by gumpi
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About the automatic yoga movements, i can understand some of them, like mudras. My understanding, based on what people on AYP have said is that these spontaneous movements are under their control. That is, if they want to they can stop them from happening. When you decribe doing yoga postures automatically it sounds like you are not in control and can't stop them. Is that right?

I am just sincerely trying to understand what is happening to people when they say they experience this or that from yoga practices.

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It is rather roughly regarded as tuning-in with, re-harmonising, receiving from or opening-up to your subconscious, inner, finer or divine being, depending on interpretation. Many practitioners claim it is beneficial, although apparently it does not affect some at all, and might affect some detrimentally. Moreover, the claimed benefits are described in a range of ways. It comes from Java where, according to research, forms of it have existed for centuries. Like a great many practices, latihan seems to induce a different state of being from which to see life differently. During or after such experiences, personal insight or transformation might take place, perhaps leading to a useful new orientation or composure, conditional on the individual. The practice entails patience and trust, with a preliminary relaxation and dissociation of thoughts and feelings. It is spontaneous with no teacher or method, unstructured except for the basic rules of group practice, and involves the whole human being; not just the body, emotions, mind or any other single facet. Outwardly, it often manifests as movements and vocal activity that can vary greatly. While the latihan may be practiced individually, the Subud association organizes regular practice in a group setting. Latihan is apparently 'transmitted' simply via the presence of other people practising it. It is practiced in private, often in gender segregated rooms.

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Originally posted by emc
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The meditations quickly went back to be a bathing in honey experience, and with greater ease it's possible to dive into the blackness again.
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Does it really say somewhere in the earlier lessons that it's preferable to step back on the mantra IN ORDER to be able to lengthen the time instead, which is more crucial??? I must have missed it totally!

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Originally posted by emc
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I do have a question though, of what that starry space is representing. Anyone know or have read anything about that particular space?
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I will try to explain what happened experientially. At the moment of awakening, it was as though I was completely outside who I thought I was. There was a vast, vast, vast emptiness. In that vast emptiness, in that infinite emptiness, there was the smallest, smallest, smallest point of light you could imagine. And that smallest point of light was a thought, just floating out there. And the thought was: "I." And when I turned and looked at the thought, all I had to do was become interested in it, in any way interested, and this little point of light would move closer and closer and closer. It was like moving close to a knothole in a fence -- when you get your eye right up to it, you don't see the fence anymore; you see what's on the other side.

So as this little point of "I" came closer, I started to perceive through this point called "me." And I found that in that point called "me" was the whole world. The whole world was contained within that "I," within that little point called "me." There wasn't really an I, but an emptiness that could go into and out of that point, in and out of it, and it's like the whole world could flicker on and off, and on and off, and on and off.

And then I noticed there were all sorts of other points, points, and I could enter each one of those points, and each one of those points was a different world, a different time, and I was a different person, a totally different manifestation in each one of those points. I could go into each one of them and see a totally different dream of self and a totally different world that was being dreamed as well.

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Meditation phase 4: awareness in the space
Remain in the eye, between the eyebrows.
Instead of focussing on the light itself and on its shining particles,
become aware of the background of the light. The darkness or the
purple light at the background of all the colours will give you the
feeling of a space, extending in front of you.
The space may appear purple, dark blue, or even just dark. More
than the colour it is the feeling of expanse that matters.
Just remain aware in the space. Let yourself be absorbed in it.
At this stage the throat friction can be decreased or even dropped.
Start breathing with the friction again if the mind goes
wandering with thoughts.
...
3.10 The mysteries of the space
While practising ISIS, the Clairvision techniques of regression, it is
not uncommon to re-experience the condition of the embryo
during the very first days that follow conception. The foetus can
be felt ‘bathing’ in the purple space. The purple space is all around
it, like a sea. The embryo is very tiny and the space around is felt
to be immense. This space is no different from the purple space
that you perceive in your eye, in the fourth and fifth phases of
the third eye meditation.
To the embryo the space is outside, all around itself. But to us, the
same space is inside. To enter the space we have to withdraw inside
and go through the portal of the third eye. In the Upanishads, a
human being is compared to a city with ten gates. Nine of these
gates lead outside and only one leads inside. The nine external gates
are the two eyes, the two ears, the two nostrils, the mouth, the
anus and the generative organ. The tenth gate is the third eye, or
#257;jñ#257;-cakra, which does not open into the external world but into
the inner space.
So what was outside for the embryo is now inside for us. During
the embryological processes that build up the foetus, an
internalization of the astral space has taken place. It is a
fascinating reversal, through which the inside becomes the outside
and the outside becomes the inside. And at death the opposite takes
place: the individual reintegrates into the space.
This leads us to a deeper understanding of the word ‘existence’,
used to describe the period of life on Earth. In Latin, ex means
out, and sistere means to take position. Existence therefore means
to take position out, that is, to exit from the space. Existence is
the temporary exit from the space that we experience between
birth and death.
Chapter 3 – Awakening the Third Eye
49
Now you can understand the feeling of relief in your heart when
you immerse yourself in the purple space during meditation. It is
as if your heart was suddenly relieved of all the pressures of
incarnated life, all the troubles of existence – enough to make you
feel much lighter! One of the results of initiation is to establish a
permanent connection with the space without losing any of one's
anchorage on Earth. One can then enjoy the peace of the cosmic
space and at the same time, remain fully involved in one's daily
activities. Past a certain level, the joyful lightness forever stays in
your heart, whatever may be happening outside.
Yet let it be very clear that the purpose of the Clairvision style of
work is not to take you out of incarnation into some happy-floaty
paradise, but to prepare you for a work of alchemy,
transformation of the very substance of your bodies. The purpose
is enlightenment here and now, in the middle of the cosmic mess
of modern life. Paradoxically, connecting with the space creates an
inner freedom that allows you to be more fully in the world.

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It's probably very true, what you write, and I feel a bit silly here. But honestly, having followed the discussions in forum for several years, I must have more registered the exception of SB, and the suggestions on decreasing time of SB and DM, stressing keeping the proportions - not stressing keeping a reasonable time for DM. For example, to self-pace by going from 5-10 min SB and 20 min DM to 3-5 min SB and 15 min DM, rather than taking away SB totally. It was really quite new to me to hear that also SB should be taken away totally! I must not have paid enough attention!

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Kechari, I think the tounge was there since the start by default (read automatic movements). I guess that's why it never occurred to me that I even could take it away, and now it was taken away in the same way - it just moved and placed itself behind the teeth instead, the Chinese way. That's when I noticed the difference!

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You are our rainbow, Katrine :)

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SHREE OM SHREE OM I AM I AM NAMAH NAMAH

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So when reading of your regained stability and ability to practice....I am so happy for you emc :) It was about time that that came about.......Also....would you still say that realization happens by force? Like...."do this or else"? The loving hand.....that all along guides us.....even though the medicine might not be tasting very good.....it is always the fact of love that moves us.....never "by force"......only by love.....Yes?

In hindsight.....from here.... it is easy to see.....not so easy when enmeshed. But when "coming back to stability" happens again and again....then the trust....more and more of it stays to be perceived.....even when in trauma or difficulty.

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I don't know what to do anylonger. I don't know how to be more responsible in my self-pacing.

Sigh. It's like there's no off-button available here.

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Originally posted by emc
I don't know what to do anylonger. I don't know how to be more responsible in my self-pacing.

Sigh. It's like there's no off-button available here.

What's the next step? What more measures can I take?

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Often at this point in the meditation, the head will be drawn back, the forehead and crown may have pronounced sensations or vibrations, and the upper body and head may be moving back and forth, or side to side, or in a circular motion (circular is preferable). These are all natural results of the practice and are identified as such in the readings. In the Revelation, St. John associates body-shaking (“earthquakes”) with the opening of the sixth chakra, followed by “silence in heaven” as the seventh chakra opens.

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In either case, the kundalini shakti rising through the ida or pingala can move upward only to the vishuddha chakra and no farther. This is the impasse.

The misdirection of the kundalini happens most often to the less disciplined, those more eager for attainments on the fast track, those not under the watchful eye of the satguru. Nevertheless, the novice feels a dynamic awakening of power. This heat, produced by the kundalini shakti flowing through either of these two nadis of the sympathetic nerve system, can and often does produce jerking in the body, spine and neck.

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More often than not, the jerking body, twisting neck and the "I now know it all" attitude are taken for a highly spiritual experience and even validated as such by certain teachers. But it is as if we were driving on a rocky road, thinking it to be a smooth highway. It is an unusual experience, to be sure, building the personal ego into something it was never intended to be. When this happens to a devotee, the wise guru or swami recommends that all spiritual practices be immediately stopped. Japa should be stopped. All pranayama except the simplest regulation of the breath should be stopped. Reading scripture should be stopped, worship of all kinds should be stopped. Anything other than wholesome, humbling karma yoga, such as cleaning bathrooms, should be stopped. Growing food should be encouraged. Bare feet on the ground and at the same time hands in the dirt is the best way to bring the rampant kundalini down to the muladhara chakra. Once it is down, it can be directed up through the right current, but only when the devotee does not have conflicting patterns in his life.

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To avoid these problems, and worse, the kundalini shakti has to be brought down all the way -- slowly, not abruptly, lest the person become suicidal -- all the way to the base, to the muladhara chakra, and then redirected up the proper channel. As pride comes before a fall, the fall of the spiritual pride is again another hurt, a final bite from the serpent, and as the poison flows through all organs, temporary physical, mental and emotional suffering is the consequence.

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How do you bring about a balance? It is done by regular practice of the five steps. Choose a time to withdraw deliberately the energies from both the ida and pingala currents and to move awareness into sushumna in a very positive way. In the morning when you awaken and at night before you sleep are the best times. Breathe regularly, the same number of counts in and out. Sit in the lotus posture. When you sit in the lotus posture, you are actually short-circuiting the ida current to a certain extent. When you are breathing regularly, through the control of the breath, you are short-circuiting the pingala current to a certain extent. Then, when awareness flows into the core of energy within the spine, you soon become consciously conscious of the sushumna current. At that point, awareness is within and begins immediately to draw upon all the externalized energies of the body, and these two psychic currents are drawn within to their source.

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Be careful not to do any self-inquiry, and definately don't ask yourself who it is that is having kundalini problems.

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Originally posted by emc
T_I, perhaps you are right, I don't know. It would be quite opposite to an open crown chakra, but who knows?

The automatic movements referred to in the text seems to be jerking and neck bending etc. I don't have very much of that anylonger - it was mostly in the beginning. When in automatic movements here now - there's daily life going on or specific healing/blessing/beaming going on. The body makes breakfast automatically, it drives the car, it walks, it smiles when there's no reason to smile - cheeks are litteraly drawn upwards, it catches something falling before the mind even got it was falling, while cooking dinner feet suddenly starts dancing in an outbreak of tremendous joy, when at the staff meeting the hand and pencil moves and takes notes effortlessly. It goes shopping. I even went shopping once with the eyes closed (as if it REALLY wanted to show me I have nothing to do with it), and the body picked the groceries and didn't stumble into any shelf or person and at the cashier I saw it had only picked ecological stuff!

The mind doesn't have a thing to do with all this. It happens automatically, and feels as if a magnet is pulling the body around with absolute perfection. The mind is in total astonishment or protest when it happens when the body is not following the mind's agenda. The mind doesn't have a clue of what's going to happen next, but everything that happens is just perfect and very serving to others - from cleaning bathrooms to picking up paper from the street to hold someone crying to cleaning an area from entities. It happens occasionally or for hours or even days. And those who say I am able to CONTROL or STOP this, have not yet been able to tell me HOW. I'm still waiting for an answer there. Perhaps it is possible to control, but I just haven't found the trick. Cause since the mind is protesting and it doesn't seem to help... I just haven't found from what place I could stop it, since the identification with mind is still there when it happens!!! I am the mind, I believe my thoughts while this is happening. Some kind of subtle "intention" training missing here perhaps, that is working beyond the mind???

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