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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
 Posted - May 08 2006 : 2:20:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
So am I David! But I'll certainly let you know!! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2006 : 8:35:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
helps alot in focus during pranayama and meditation going along with shambhavi mudra and the bandhas to bring the gaze and energy focus to the third eye point.
coming in late here....I just want to note that AYP does not suggest bringing energy focus to the third eye point in meditation. I agree; I strongly believe it's best not to direct ANYTHING in meditation. Let the mantra focus the energy wherever it needs to; one's only duty is to return to mantra when it side-tracks but otherwise to let yourself be worked on rather than "do" anything.
Of course, there are different approaches and schools, and if Victor (or anyone else) prefers doing it this way, that's absolutely his right. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 03:12:38 AM
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| Actually, I would agree with you at this point as far as technique goes Jim. Experientially the practice of kechari during mantra meditation seems to bring energy to the ajna without deliberate effort. |
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ycloutier2000
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 10:33:28 AM
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I don't think I would be able to snip. I get queazy and feel light headed just imagining it. I have recently found a way that gives it a nice stretch. It's just like stretching any other tissue I find - It's like an asana for the tongue.
I push the tip of my tongue upward where the soft and hard palate meet. Straight up, up, as far as my tongue will go. There's a bit more to it, but I eventually find a way to position my tongue to provide maximum stretching of the frenum. Like any other asana, by experimentation, you find the best way for the tongue to provide the best stretch.
After I stop the stretching, I always "taste" a subtle "sweetness". for a second or two. I suppose if I can be disciplined enough to stretch this way every day, eventually I will be able to move my tong to the nasal cavity. Currently the tip can touch the entrance to the nasal cav - I can taste the difference. Patience and determination should eventually get me all the way up....I hope! |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 11:28:52 AM
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| Hi Y - Patience and determination should eventually get you all the way up, but if your tongue/frenum ratio is similar to mine, it'll take a really, really long time. I've been nudging my tongue with my finger the same way you're doing, along with clipping, and finally a month or so ago I got my tongue past the uvula into stage 2. I still can't do it without the help of the finger, but once my tongue is back there, I can remove my finger and the tongue stays for longer periods of time, just checking things out. I need a lot more length before I can probe properly, but getting into stage 2 was a big deal for me. It was like living in a house for 40 odd yrs. and then finding a secret passageway and room. At some point you might consider snipping; you can't be a bigger wimp than I, and the benefits are pretty amazing. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 12:04:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
Actually, I would agree with you at this point as far as technique goes Jim. Experientially the practice of kechari during mantra meditation seems to bring energy to the ajna without deliberate effort.
victor, if I can niggle and pick at you just a little, even the indirect intent is a mistake. Silence magnifies intent (as we learn with samyama). So even the smallest predispositions can blow up large as we go deeper into silence.
We don't need to bring energy to ajna. We don't need to bring awareness to ajna. That's just not it, I promise. There's NOTHING we need to do and there's NOTHING we need to have done for us. Just let the barber cut your hair and stay out of it.
I get caught up in a thousand more of these sorts of things than you ever will, I promise (I'm too damned analytical for my own good...Iyengar training....). My solution: strip it down. Don't meditate, just sit and say "I am" a lot. I have to keep relearning this. Otherwise I become the meditation version of Ed Norton, with the 90 gazillion things he has to do before he actually hits the cue ball! |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 07:31:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
Its all done. He removed it completely. Took about 20 minutes. No pain. Mouth sore...getting used to it. Will take a while to heal and I will post updates on how it is going. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 09:53:37 AM
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Thanks. Great.
Let me know when it heals fully (might be a few weeks for such a big cut).
In a few days now you can start 'milking the tongue' (might be too sore until then). This will now start to stretch your tongue muscles if necessary. Freed from the frenum limitation, stretching is very rapid in the tongue itself. It's possible that your tongue muscles are already long enough to not need stretching.
Let me know when it is healed.... I have an experiment for you to try if you are interested....
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 12:04:21 PM
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| I am interested too. please keep us updated |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 12:15:31 PM
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| Would a dentist in the US do this? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 12:52:02 PM
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| Dear Sparky Fox - I'm curious if you had to persuade the dentist, or if she did it without asking any questions? My dentist is a good ol' boy and the idea of explaining myself to him doesn't appeal to me. Is this a routine operation for a dentist? What did you tell them you wanted it for? |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 01:07:05 AM
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| Meg, I have a dentist in san francisco who said he is willing to do it |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 05:13:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks. Great.
Let me know when it heals fully (might be a few weeks for such a big cut).
In a few days now you can start 'milking the tongue' (might be too sore until then). This will now start to stretch your tongue muscles if necessary. Freed from the frenum limitation, stretching is very rapid in the tongue itself. It's possible that your tongue muscles are already long enough to not need stretching.
Let me know when it is healed.... I have an experiment for you to try if you are interested....
Im all up for experiments! Its still quite sore and Im not going to rush anything.
By the way, he was very open to it. He does it in youngsters who are tongue-tied. He asked my why I wanted it done, I told him, and he said, "how interesting". I also said it would help me in my acting career as the voice is very important and the tongue a vital part of that.
His main point was he was happy to do it because he could do it safely...I told him some people try to do it by themselves and he said he was glad I didnt try because everything is quite crowded in my mouth and a little misplaced enthusiasm could have been difficult for me. |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 03:54:51 AM
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Just thought Id send you an update. Frenum is now removed and although there was soreness for a few days, its now healed well. Went for a checkup and he said I could now begin stretching the tongue if I wanted to. There is still an attachment from the floor of the mouth to the tongue, but he explained it is muscle and not (wiry) frenum. This means it will stretch.
I began stretching and am making some progress; already the tongue goes further back. At this point I have to check my normal "bull in a china shop" approach and try to do things slowly...I keep forgetting its not a race although I am very excitred about the prospects. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 09:48:37 AM
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Thanks. This is good to hear.
I think I'm near the home stretch in removing my own frenum -- maybe a few more months. I envy you your dentist!
Since what is left is muscle now, any stretching (should you need it) should progress very rapidly. You notice that pulling your tongue now can only produce a dull ache, from pulling on muscle, and none of the sharp pain that can come from pulling frenum?
In order to most easily stretch your tongue from here, you might want to do a variant on 'milking the tongue': I'd propose just pulling it, (using a cotton handkerchief) and holding it for some time in a pull of constant strength. That's the way muscles stretch best and most comfortably. Just as we do for asanas. No need to jerk the tongue any more for you.
I believe one of the purposes of the jerking action in 'milking the tongue' is to bring frenum fibers to the surface, to help in clipping/cutting. Since you have no frenum now, this isn't necessary any more.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 06 2006 12:07:22 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 12:20:06 PM
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| David - Every time I clip my frenum I gain some good length for about a day, but once it heals the length is gone. :( My tongue is behind the soft palate and up into the nasal passage, and has touched the whatchacallit (boney wall where the tongue so desperately wants to rest), but once the healing starts, it doesn't touch anymore, and furthermore, I can do none of the above without using my finger as a prop. So close and yet so far. I stretch the tongue, but maybe not enough? Is this something I'm supposed to do every day? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 12:35:32 PM
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Doesn't anyone believe me around here? Where should I go to get some respeck? 
When you clip, you can gain length from reducing the frenum limitation. It'll be longer for a day or so, then it starts to swell to heal, and you temporarily lose the length you gained, and maybe even a little more length, due to the swelling associated with the healing. So it can even be a little shorter as a result of the swelling. When the healing is done, and the swelling all gone, you should restore the length you gained with the clipping. The healing takes around 1-three weeks.
So in short, when you clip/cut, you gain length immeditately, then lose it for a while due to healing, and it comes back permanently as the healing completes. Longer, shorter, then longer again. Does this make sense? Is this what is happening?
Meg said:
I stretch the tongue, but maybe not enough? Is this something I'm supposed to do every day?
You can be at a frenum limit and a tongue-muscle limit at the same time. However, muscle stretches so quickly and tendon essentiallyu not at all, so, while the frenum is being slowly removed, only a little tongue-pulling is necessary to keep your tongue-muscle stretched so that it goes right up to the frenum limit. No, I don't think you need to pull your tongue every day. I'd say once a week at 100 pulls a time is enough, if you are clipping slowly or moderately.
Tip: when you pull your tongue, the dull ache is stretching muscle; the sharp-quaility mild pain is from frenum being pulled. If you pull regularly, your muscles will be sufficiently stretched that there will be little dull ache, and more sharp-quality mild pain.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 07 2006 11:56:45 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 1:15:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Doesn't anyone believe me around here? Where should I go to get some respeck?
Ah heck, I respeck you as good as anyone, an' when it come to frenum bustin', you da man.
quote:
So in short, when you clip/cut, you gain length immeditately, then lose it for a while due to healing, and it comes back permanently as the healing completes. Longer, shorter, then longer again. Does this make sense?
Yes.
quote:
Is this what is happening?
No.
I cut, gain length, heal, lose length, and am perpetually back wherest I started. 
quote:
I'd say once a week is enough, if you do 100 pulls which is what I do.
I'll try pulling instead of milking. Thanks.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 3:39:29 PM
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| try just genrally pulling and stretching. i did it on long drives when i had nothing better to do, could be boring to just sit and pull on your tongue for a half hour. it worked well for me, now inever even bother to stretch it, just do my practice |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 6:50:30 PM
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Meg said:
I cut, gain length, heal, lose length, and am perpetually back wherest I started.
I'm not sure exactly what is happening for you but I am quite sure the cutting will produce extensibility in the long run. My guess is that after a clipping has healed, you aren't quite back where you started, but a little ahead of it, and you can't yet notice it. My cuts were almost always aggressive, so I would always notice the extension after the healing.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 06 2006 6:54:35 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 7:55:25 PM
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Hi all
Happy kecharin'!
I was reflecting on possible sources of why kechari was easy for me.
I've always goofed off with gestures stretching my face around making any number of grotesque images to the delight of family and friends (sometimes). One thing I've always done is stretch my tongue to the limit. Though it's already long I have always extended it out and down to the fullest extent, closing it off with lips and teeth and pushing out more, always keeping the muscles strained. I actually pinch off the tongue so that it gets engorged with blood and grows fat. I know, I'm weird! I'm thinking this kind of stunt over the years helped stretch my tongue. Try it. Just always keep that thing working. Make it a super-worm!
alan |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 11:02:40 AM
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Hi
Its me again. I found that using a piece of cotton gauze helps get a grip on the tongue in order to exercise it. And thanks David, pulling is doing its job very quickly. Im already further back than ive ever been.
And, curling the tongue back, then using fingers to push, I felt the opening for the first time today! Very excited! And then I gagged!
Onwards and upwards, slowly slowly
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Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 11:41:49 AM
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alan.
I think my ability to do khecari might be due to my habit of removing debris in my eu-tubes with my tongue.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 12:02:01 PM
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Victor, I think you have had a very non-limiting frenum, and were just tongue-muscle limited for some time. All you needed to do was pull your tongue a little and your tongue muscles got long enough rapidly.
A person who is more frenum-limited needs to clip that to get anywhere. Even a little regular pulling for them keeps their tongue muscles long enough so that the tongue muscles are never more limiting than the frenum.
quote:
Originally posted by Victor
try just genrally pulling and stretching. i did it on long drives when i had nothing better to do, could be boring to just sit and pull on your tongue for a half hour. it worked well for me, now inever even bother to stretch it, just do my practice
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 01:01:22 AM
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| that may be true david. I did however do quite a bit of stretching of the tongue as my job often gives me manny hours on the road with nothing to do to entertain myself so i do recall one such day of stretching my tongue in this fashion for hours at a time.this was after i did my one snip and it did seem to help alot. i may just be lucky though, it is not something that you see many people comparing |
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Topic |
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Kechari Mudra
