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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 02:11:31 AM
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Hi,
Tibetan tantric schools mention there are mainly 10 gates (chakras) where one can dissolve the winds (dualistic energy) into the central channel (spinal nerve aka sushumna) to awaken kundalini. The most famous and also considered the safest gate is navel chakra leading to gTummo or inner fire yoga which is the first yoga of the 6 yogas of Naropa.
There seems to be other schools who awaken kundalini through crown chakra, third eye, heart chakra, sexual chakra (Kaula) or root chakra (Tirth lineage). From what i've observed, indeed persons who got such initiation have more difficult kundalini symptoms confirming what Tibetan suggest, which is first dissolve in navel chakra then clear progressively up and down sushumna.
My question is about AYP school: through which gate does one attempt to awaken kundalini ?
Albert |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 02:40:30 AM
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Interesting. I didn't know that about the Tibetan schools.
In AYP, practitioners just focus on practices and don't necessarily attempt an awakening at a certain chakra...however, awakenings will probably generally occur at the third eye, since most of the practices tend to make energy move there. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2008 : 8:13:28 PM
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Hi Selfonlypath,
Welcome to the forum. Ayp does not focus on specific chakra openings, with the approach being that each individual will take a separate route based on unfathomable need (each one comes with a unique set of karmas and samskaras/impresions). But that is an internal process, or 'under the hood'. This is disscused here:
http://www.aypsite.org/47.html
If you do a search for 'chakras' in the support forum, a lot of threads will come up too. |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 04:44:33 AM
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| In addition to the AYP lessons here, Yogani's novel "Secrets of Wilder" will answer that question for you. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 06:11:04 AM
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Well, isn't a way to answer my question by a post instead of directing me towards a book ?
Besides hindus or tibetan system, i've been recently practicing quechua shamanism which is a system containing tantrism and non duality awareness. Quechua shamanism seems to do the same thing as tibetan, which is opening the navel center first called qosqo.
Please note i'm not advocating any system but rather trying to find a common procedure which is safe when dealing with an authetic spiritual awakening some call kundalini experience.
There is not such a clear and safe path between all these systems, it is tricky like this other topic has shown:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2516
Albert
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 08:23:34 AM
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Hi selfonlypath, I was the author of the thread you mention, now that I know more, I can tell 1) that tummo awakens the spinal nerve indeed, but 2) the central channel is not the spinal nerve. I posted another thread here http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3320 about the subjet.
As for the white and red drops, indian yoga knows them well, but, as many buddhists students don't know anything about highest teachings, we can guess that many yoga students don't know the Yogachudamani Upanishad, mentioned in Satyananda's book :
http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/k..._visarga.php
Go to the bottom for "the red and white bindus".
But this is only the beginning. When the 2 bindus are merging, there are many things left to do. I suppose that there are further details in some Upanishads, but I don't know them, for now...
So, indian and tibetan are very close, but few people know the texts which demonstrate it. It took me much time to find them.
Satyananda's book gives a practice to trigger exactly the same thing that tummo is supposed to (now I can say it, because I went far enough in tummo to know it), with different means. But at the end, you find the same things. For example, tummo practice doesn't mention Bindu Visarga or some other points, but I found them anyway, it doesn't mention kundalini, rather "clear light", but kundalini reveals clear light... So, once you've have advanced enough in one system, you can help it with the other one.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 09:13:59 AM
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Thank you so much Kadak for wisdom, time and delightful information.
If the spinal nerve is not the same as the central channel, this could explain the different risings I mentionned on this thread which you might give your personal opinion:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3301
By the way, I'm a bit lost: sushumna would be the spinal nerve or the central channel ?
Albert
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 3:35:56 PM
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| Wouldn't it be better somehow to read the core AYP teachings on this website (that shouldn't take too awfully long), the novel(which is a wonderful and insightful source of all that needs to be known about the AYP paradigm), and take it from there? Unless the author of this topic has joined us just for the cameraderie which is fine, really... |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 4:03:20 PM
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Hi Albert,
According to Swami Rama, the central canal of the spinal cord or nerve is the Sushumna or at least corresponds to or is the physical representation of it.
Best, yb. |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2008 : 11:55:23 AM
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Exactly: I've read the same thing in numerous Indian/Hindu sources regarding sushumna corresponding to the central canal of the spinal cord.
Recently I've been reading about Tibetan practices in The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe and Clear Light of Bliss by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. (By the way, thanks, Kadak, for refering to the latter in your earlier post - it's a great book.) In both works it's clearly stated that the central channel is located in front of but does not touch the spinal column. According to Tibetan practice, what is the role of sushumna then?
I have two more questions:
(1) Both books clearly state that the central channel moves up through the body to the throat chakra, then the crown chakra and then follows the skull forward to the third eye. This also diverges from the AYP perspective of sushumna. (It seems more closely related to the kriya version of spinal breathing that I know of.) What is going on here?
(2) Tibetan practices of Tummo also rely on the left and right channels. These seem to correspond to ida and pingala, especially in that when the two side channels are operative the central channel is dormant and vice versa. The left and right channels, however, do not criss-cross from side to side of the body as they pass each chakra, in the way that ida and pingala do. They wrap around each chakra, forming a knot, but (unless I am mistaken) the right channel always remains on the right side of the body, whereas the left channel remains always on the left.
Can anyone clear up these issues?
Thanks! |
Edited by - tallis on Jan 05 2008 12:17:35 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2008 : 12:48:11 PM
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It'd make the most sense to pick one system, do the practices, and find out where these things are for yourself. Learning it in books is absolutely useless knowledge. Someone here could clear up the issues with their own opinions, yet you'd still have no understanding. To quote the Hatha Yoga Pradipika:
quote:
66. Whether young, old or too old, sick or lean, one who discards laziness, gets success if he practices Yoga.
67. Success comes to him who is engaged in the practice. How can one get success without practice; for by merely reading books on Yoga, one can never get success.
68. Success cannot be attained by adopting a particular dress (Vesa). It cannot be gained by telling tales. Practice alone is the means to success. This is true, there is no doubt.
69. asanas, various Kumbhakas, and other divine means, all should be practiced in the practice of Hatha Yoga, till the fruit of Raja Yoga is obtained.
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 03:38:08 AM
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Hi Scott,
Scott wrote:
quote:
It'd make the most sense to pick one system, do the practices, and find out where these things are for yourself. Learning it in books is absolutely useless knowledge.
Agreed. I, for one, do stick to one system (AYP) as far as practices go. And I agree, knowledge from books alone is completely empty. But that's not to say that I'm not interested in reading about other systems in my free time. Surely, trying to learn as much as you can about other approaches will broaden your knowledge and, over the long term, will help to reduce the centuries-long isolationism between different traditions. Surely, sharing knowledge is a good thing. Isn't that part of what this forum is all about?
quote:
Someone here could clear up the issues with their own opinions...
In a way your words prove my point. People's points of view and the experiences they relate can remain only 'opinions' in somebody else's mind until we have enough knowledge and understanding of the context of where that person is coming from. Otherwise, until we ultimately reach the same goal (and most of us haven't yet), we end up travelling down a thousand different roads babbling as many different languages. |
Edited by - tallis on Jan 06 2008 05:56:30 AM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 08:54:13 AM
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Hey Tallis,
In no way was I saying it's wrong to discuss the similarities between systems. Or to research the systems in books. I was just saying that if you want to know if they are similar, then finding out for yourself is really the only way. Because I could say: "yes they are the same, and any written differences are based on the writings of people who haven't experienced anything". But then, what would you get out of that? A belief that they are probably the same, yet, what if in truth they are different? So, another person could tell you: "these two systems both work with subtle energy but utilize entirely different pathways". That still may or may not be true. Who finds out, and who will benefit from the knowledge? It's only the person who practices the techniques and finds the truth about energies and the body.
So, I agree absolutely with what you've said here:
quote:
But that's not to say that I'm not interested in reading about other systems in my free time. Surely, trying to learn as much as you can about other approaches will broaden your knowledge and, over the long term, will help to reduce the centuries-long isolationism between different traditions. Surely, sharing knowledge is a good thing. Isn't that part of what this forum is all about?
I also research other systems. There's no sense in throwing our researching and thinking brains away. They are good for making sense out of spirituality. We can turn it into more of a science this way, instead of a mystery like it is to most people. I do think this is what AYP is all about! |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 11:20:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I also research other systems. There's no sense in throwing our researching and thinking brains away. They are good for making sense out of spirituality. We can turn it into more of a science this way, instead of a mystery like it is to most people. I do think this is what AYP is all about!
Hi Scott:
Yes, this is the crux of it. It is the move from closed to open systems, and continual research and development on the level of the individual practitioner. Eventually this will reach the large research and educational institutions, and I am all for it. That will be when integrated spiritual practices become permanently established in the mainsteam, and AYP can be a stepping stone in that overall process. Not the end -- only a beginning for a new paradigm of ongoing development and practical applications of spiritual knowledge.
See here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3267
Interdisciplinary (multi-tradition) studies and effective integrations of practice are central in the migration to open Applied Spiritual Science. That is why we encourage such discussions in the corresponding forum categories here -- exploring the full scope of practices and experiences (causes and effects) associated with the process of human spiritual transformation.
Many thanks to everyone for contributing!
The guru is in you.
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 3:05:18 PM
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| Hi Scott - glad to hear our viewpoints aren't so dissimilar after all. Even when we're both talking plain English, I guess sometimes we don't always speak the same language! |
Edited by - tallis on Jan 06 2008 3:07:31 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 11:19:38 AM
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From Raja Yoga by Yesudian and Haich:
"Yoga is not a religion; it is crystallized truth. This is the reason why Yoga has remained unchanged for thousands of years. Its secrets are guarded by those who see. There is no error, nothing which, in the course of time, must be improved, corrected or changed. Among the peaks of the Himalayas there are no currents of thought subject to fashion--coming into vogue and disappearing again--for in the hearts of the yogis in their Himalayan retreat, there dwells the eternal, unchanging TRUTH itself."
Best, yb. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2008 : 9:15:05 PM
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Scott said: quote:
I was just saying that if you want to know if they are similar, then finding out for yourself is really the only way.
I suppose one has to remember the distinction between, what Aurobindo had said about the Intellect, the helper, and Intellect the barrier (or some such equivalent). Each seeker will have to assess and know when the intellect is helping and when it is hindering. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 12:57:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak
I suppose one has to remember the distinction between, what Aurobindo had said about the Intellect, the helper, and Intellect the barrier (or some such equivalent). Each seeker will have to assess and know when the intellect is helping and when it is hindering.
So far, I was taught to practice grounding in conjonction with third eye and gut instinct in order to not get trapped by a trickster.
Which lesson on AYP proposes a solution and practice to develop this ego-free vision which is necessary once high levels of kundalini start to manifest unlocking very deep core inconcious blockages ?
Albert |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 08:19:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Which lesson on AYP proposes a solution and practice to develop this ego-free vision which is necessary once high levels of kundalini start to manifest unlocking very deep core inconcious blockages ?
Hi Albert:
That is an easy one. Deep Meditation -- Lesson 13, and all related writings, including on Samyama and Self-Inquiry (new book).
This is the cultivation and expansion of inner silence/witness, which transcends and illuminates all energy experiences. Ideally, it is undertaken before kundalini awakens, but any time after will be okay too. The awakening of Silent Self is the essential ingredient on any spiritual path. Natural kundalini awakening is both facilitated by and secondary to That.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 11:13:40 AM
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Yogani,
Is this 'silent self' you speak of the same condition that Tolle refers to when he says that his thinking has been reduced by 80% and that his mental commentary is basically absent most of the time and he is just choicelessly aware, as Krishnamurti would put it, without any labeling of environmental phenomena occuring by the mind?
Isn't this the reverse way of saying that your mind is clear of thoughts?
The awakening of the 'silent self' is simply the quieting of the mind?
But can't a person reach a state where there is turmoil in the mind as purification is occuring and it is simply seen as that because there is no fusing of the silent self with the mental phenomena? It is seen as "not I" and there is no longer identification with it?
So there is a condition of noisy silence?
Thanks, yb. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 12:15:44 PM
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Hi YB:
Silent Self (inner silence, witness), once cultivated, is abiding whether there are thoughts or not. So it is not only a condition of no-thinking, though it does give the mind a foundation in stillness, which tends to calm the mind. It is also the prerequisite for self-inquiry as described in the new AYP book on that subject.
But, no, Silent Self does not mean a condition of no thinking. Rather, it is the ground state of inspired and illuminated thinking, which is what perhaps the others are describing. Same condition, different words.
However, it is misleading to present Silent Self as a condition of "no thinking." Then people get the idea that enlightenment is about killing thinking (and desires). This is not true. Not any more true than yoga being about sitting in a yoga pose. The field of play is beyond such external things, including our thoughts and feelings. Effective yoga practices cultivate the witness without getting into a wrestling match with the mind, emotions or body. It is about going beyond all that and coming back in as Silent Self, even as all the external stuff is continuing.
Yes, once we have been meditating for a while, abiding inner silence will be there even as purification and opening are underway. At some point we begin to see our thoughts as objects separate from our Silent Self, and this is where real self-inquiry begins. It is the beginning of being able to discriminate between Self and all objects, including our thoughts, emotions, the physical environment, and the ongoing purification and opening that are occurring within us. From this point on, kundalini becomes a cakewalk, along with the rest of life.
Silence with noise -- not "noisy silence." 
This is why Silent Self (the witness) is at the heart of all spiritual progress. Until we cultivate that, we will continue to be identified with external objects, beginning with our own thoughts. But it isn't our thoughts we have to get rid of. It is abiding Silent Self (witness) that we want to add. That is the result the sages are describing in one way or other, depending on their current experience and personal perspective on how they got to that condition themselves (if they know).
The real question is: How can everyone bring about this condition in themselves quickly and safely?
It is one thing to talk about enlightenment. And something else entirely to be cultivating it by effective means. Then all the answers will be coming from within, and we can give our own description. I am looking forward to hearing about it from more and more people. Bring it on! 
The guru is in you.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 1:33:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The real question is: How can everyone bring about this condition in themselves quickly and safely?
Hi Yogani,
After reading your last answer, it makes me think of what tibetan sects calls rigpa or Nature of the Mind" via Dzogchen system which is considered as a secret practice as opposed to shamanism (external practice) and tantrism (internal practice).
Does AYP system provides at a certain yogic level the equivalent of Dzogchen teachings and if yes, what specific lessons adresses the self introduction to rigpa ?
Namaste, Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 11 2008 1:57:23 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 1:58:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Hi Yogani,
After reading your last answer, it makes me think of what tibetan sects calls rigpa or Nature of the Mind" via Dzogchen system which is considered as a secret practice as opposed to shamanism (external practice) and tantrism (internal practice).
Does AYP system provides at a certain yogic level the equivalent of Dzogchen teachings and if yes, what specific lessons adresses the self introduction to rigpa ?
Namaste, Albert
Hi Albert:
That I can't tell you, not being well-versed in the Tibetan systems. Perhaps others can shed some light?
One thing I can say is that the awakening is the same regardless of the system that is being used to approach it, assuming effective means are being applied. There is only one human nervous system with its inherent profound spiritual capabilities, and once things are set in motion via practices, the process will go to the same fruition. The experiences will be of the same nature, with the descriptions colored by background, culture and religion.
A rose is still a rose when called by any other name.
So I don't agree that there are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc. awakenings. All are the same process of human spiritual transformation, stimulated by one systematic approach or another, or an evolving integration of approaches (something new) which is where all of this is going in the information age. Modern Applied Spiritual Science.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 2:01:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
So there is a condition of noisy silence?
Love it.
When there is prevailing silence and purification happens.. there is turmoil.. but there is no association with the turmoil, no mind stories attached. Everyone (I think) has triggers for reactions.. I have a few.. and when no major purification is taking place, there is a sense of "nothing can touch me" even when the triggers are there. However when there is purification happening.. and when I experience something (triggers) that would otherwise make me tense and worried and get my mind racing with stories and make me lash out and make me want to cry and make me sad or make me angry.. the body reacts.. so, my neck and back get tight, I may get a headache.. and emotions arise.. the ego gets a hold of these emotions.. but in matter of minutes (at times even seconds) the entire thing dissolves.. its like there is nothing that can keep the ego reactions in place. The body has still not forgotten how it's supposed to react.. and this is really strange (strange because it seems like the body reactions are independent of the emotional reactions).. it's like the brain sets off the physical reactions it always did during stress.. and the mind tries to hold on to the feelings and stories arising.. but fails.. it all dissolves away into the silence.. at least this is what I experience.. and from my level this is really huge (not when it's happening.. but later when I think of how I reacted or handled a situation.. when it's happening, there is no effort involved.. the silence just does its thing) and yet so normal that I wonder how I missed it for so long. The mind is confused, so is the body.. but the silence just is.. and like Yogani says the silence moves, or like Adyashanti says, Emptiness Dances.. The silence moves to encompass whatever else is arising, you don't have to surrender (trying to surrender is a mind concept too).. there is nothing to do.. it is all done once the silence moves (that is why being in some kind of regular practice that increases your inner silence, is so important). There is no noise.. because the noise arises when the mind is active.. when the silence is active.. the noise does not have a chance to squeak.
The triggers too get less and less.. even a trigger that may have bothered me all my life.. even till yesterday.. even the slightest hint of it may have send me into a downward spiral.. (purification or no purification) may not not touch me today (mentally or physically).. it's like the brain gets re-wired and that trigger loses its strength/power.. and you are left in amazement of the process.
And yes.. there are times I catch myself not thinking (of course, the min I think "Hey! I am not thinking".. I am thinking  ..).. like in meditation, really, never did think this was possible.. but if you are not thinking of the past or worrying about the future.. there are times when you have nothing to think about.. don't ask me how this happens.. but it has something to do with the silence moving in and taking the space of the constant chatter..
You also find yourself able to communicate more succinctly without trying to do so.. like words that should be spoken at that time just flow. No matter how much confusion is going on around you, you stay centered and are present and your ego does not get carried away by the situation (reminds me of "the eye of the storm").. you don't react.. and soon everything around you picks up on the calm and kinda sorta settles down... and yet when you are there you are not thinking.. "Hey, wow.. look at me.. how calm I am!!!".. you only realize it later.. Then you are awestruck.. and yet don't find it necessary to tell anyone or make a big deal about it.. guess one of the paradoxes of yoga.
PS: Just saw Yogani's reply.. "Silence with noise -- not "noisy silence." .. perfect!!
quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Yogani,
Is this 'silent self' you speak of the same condition that Tolle refers to when he says that his thinking has been reduced by 80% and that his mental commentary is basically absent most of the time and he is just choicelessly aware, as Krishnamurti would put it, without any labeling of environmental phenomena occuring by the mind?
Isn't this the reverse way of saying that your mind is clear of thoughts?
The awakening of the 'silent self' is simply the quieting of the mind?
But can't a person reach a state where there is turmoil in the mind as purification is occuring and it is simply seen as that because there is no fusing of the silent self with the mental phenomena? It is seen as "not I" and there is no longer identification with it?
So there is a condition of noisy silence?
Thanks, yb.
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 2:52:22 PM
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Terrific post Shweta
quote:
The triggers too get less and less.. even a trigger that may have bothered me all my life.. even till yesterday.. even the slightest hint of it may have send me into a downward spiral.. (purification or no purification) may not not touch me today (mentally or physically).. it's like the brain gets re-wired and that trigger loses its strength/power.. and you are left in amazement of the process.
Thats exactly where I am at this moment
quote:
You also find yourself able to communicate more succinctly without trying to do so.. like words that should be spoken at that time just flow. No matter how much confusion is going on around you, you stay centered and are present and your ego does not get carried away by the situation (reminds me of "the eye of the storm").. you don't react.. and soon everything around you picks up on the calm and kinda sorta settles down... and yet when you are there you are not thinking.. "Hey, wow.. look at me.. how calm I am!!!".. you only realize it later.. Then you are awestruck.. and yet don't find it necessary to tell anyone or make a big deal about it.. guess one of the paradoxes of yoga.
Yep thats exactly it 
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 3:08:59 PM
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I wanted to ask if you've experienced, Shanti, Richard, yogani, or anyone else for that matter, if you continue to reexperience those triggers over and over again, until your mind relents and you just let go of it? Kind of like trying to kick chocolate, by abstaining, but the reverse is true, like eating so much of the stuff that you get just sick of it. In other words, instead of trying to separate yourself from the actual thought or behavioral trigger, you reexperience those things until the mind is tired of exhausted? It's a sort of disensitization that is mentioned within the Writings of Tao Te Ching. (can't seem to find the verse). Maybe yogani discusses this in his book or could add further wisdom to this topic? Anyway, it's not a cake walk, for me, right now, yogani, and is more like walking a tight rope:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Jan 11 2008 3:19:49 PM |
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Hindus versus Tibetan awakening
