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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 26 2007 : 03:47:50 AM
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Hi All,
So far, I had kind of one foot into Tibetan tantric practices and the other foot into hindu's practices eventhough my path has always been more connected to tibetan tantric practices. Both systems seem synchronized talking about Ida nadi (left channel), Pingali nadi (right channel) and sushumna (central channel) where the idea is to balance Ida & Pingali before rising kundalini into sushumna.
I've been opening myself recently to different kind of lineages and someone brought to my attention new information but i would be interested in having your feedback. This new information kind of introduces sub-levels nadis into sushumna with specific *cul-de-sac* or *dead end* routes for Kundalini rising that could explain some of my personal blocked issues.
When reading these pages below:
http://www.kundalinicare.com/aboutkundalini3.html (check for deflecting rising paragraph and kaula marga vajra re-diversion process paragraph)
http://spiritsong.org/unit6-2.htm (check for etheric body paragraph)
one find some partial contradiction but also agreement that kundalini can rise from root chakra into 6 nadis:
- sushumna
- vajra
- chitrini
- brahma
- saraswati
- lakshmi
My questions are:
- does tibetan systems also split central channel into sub-channels potentially having dead-end or cul-de-sac routes for the kundalini process,
- what method or symptom reading can I use to detect which nadi kundalini is travelling into my conduit,
- what method can be used to re-divert kundalini into a complete kundalini (i.e. vajra to sushumna) process under a hindu or tibetan process
Thank you in advance, Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Dec 27 2007 12:52:29 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 4:12:39 PM
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Hi Albert, welcome to the forum
What you are talking about here is generally regarded as "under the hood".
The pranayama/spinal breathing we do here goes through the sushumna.
As far as I am aware this takes care of everything -Ida & Pingali etc.
I'm not well up on what you're talking about so can't comment further, but thought I would drop in and say welcome anyway |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 02:11:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Hi Albert, welcome to the forum
What you are talking about here is generally regarded as "under the hood".
Hi Sparkle,
Thanks for the welcome, this is was indeed my first post.
I'm french so I do not understand the meaning of "under the hood" hence would you agree to explain plus pin-point what in my question is regarded as "under the hood" ?
Albert |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 03:38:31 AM
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Salut Albert,
Welcome to the AYP forum!
Under the hood is explained in this lesson: http://www.aypsite.org/47.html
The metaphore used is a car - we don't have to open the hood/cover and look at the motor to see what's going on when we drive. We just trust the motor does what it's supposed to do while we drive.
In short, in AYP we don't care that much about the details of how energy is flowing through the body for several reasons. One is for example that it can be so different for different persons during different phases of the purification process, and different explanations can cause unnecessary confusion.
It is an area where we easily can get trapped in trying to figuring it all out with our minds, instead of detaching from the mind and get into presence instead and just stay with the stillness, trusting life will arrange our energy flows in a perfect way.
In AYP we just keep to our practices and notice how energy flows change over time, but we don't get stuck in the "scenery" or extraordinary experiences of it. We don't try to control it, manipulate it or force it in any direction - stillness takes care of it all anyway! What we do is to regulate the flows in magnitude, though. We keep checking ourselves for overload symptoms, and if such arise - we self-pace and do whatever it takes to calm the energies down. Overload is namely one of those things that can slow down our journey, and we are eager to have a smooth and fast travel! |
Edited by - emc on Dec 28 2007 03:40:58 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 1:03:01 PM
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Hi Selfonlypath,
I think Sparcle and EMC have given the best advice, it is not necessary to look into these things, and can be an unnecessary diversion. But as you have looked and are concerned about it I thought I would mention a couple of things:
The biggest problem with kundalini seems to me to happen when it awakens too early, before the system is purified enough. Doing regular spiritual practices as outlined in the main lessons here will resolve that issue.
There are two nadis not mentioned on your list, the ida and pingala nadis, which the kundalini can rise into if it rises too early. This can cause some problems and the central channel (sushumna) needs to be purified then in order to redirect the rising energy into this channel.
Of the nadis in the list, the saraswati nadi and lakshmi nadi are very minor nadis on the front of the body (to either side of the medhu nadi). It is extremely rare for kundalini to rise into either of these two nadis.
Of the other four, one is the sushumna, and the other three I believe are contained within the sushumna. I really believe that if the kundalini rises in any of these four then it will sort itself out, so we don't need to worry about it. It has it's own intelligence and will, so it can act in the best way to reach it's goal.
I was wondering though, what are the symptoms that you are worried about that made you think your kundalini has awakened in the wrong channel?
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 1:35:27 PM
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Hi Christi,
What happened is one person a few monthes ago claimed that I have a vajra-rising due to the way i practice sacred sexuality with my wife. He then gave me the information I shared with you at the beginning of this thread so I was checking here the validity of his information.
So far in the system I practice, there is like you say a non-dual channel (sushumna) so it goes under the hood / auto-pilot / kundalini-Shakti cannot be controlled by the ego just doing as Godess will. But I do have a blockage in my stomach area eventhough I have non-ejaculatory orgasm so this is why I wondered if this person was right about his advice to re-divert a vajra-rising.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 05 2008 12:30:41 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 04:29:48 AM
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Hi Albert,
quote:
Hi Christi,
What happened is one person a few monthes ago claimed that I have a vajra-rising due to the way i practice sacred sexuality with my wife. He then gave me the information I shared with you at the beginning of this thread so I was checking here the validity of his information.
So far in the system I practice, there is like you say a non-dual channel (sushumna) so it goes under the hood / auto-pilot / kundalini-Shakti cannot be controlled by the ego just doing as Godess will. But I do have a blockage in my stomach area eventhough I have non-ejaculatory orgasm so this is why I wondered if this person was right about his advice to re-divert a vajra-rising.
Albert
I must admit, I wouldn't know what a vajra rising was if I saw one. The vajra nadi is said to be inside the sushumna chakra and is said to be a dead end (i.e. doesn't go all the way to the crown). All I can say is two things. One is that blockages in chakras (such as manipura) can be caused by many things.. not just by kundalini. Secondly, in AYP there are many practices for guiding the kundalini to rise in the proper manner, but no distinction is made to these different forms of rising. In other words, the same practices are used to guide the kundalini to the crown, regardless of symptoms which pop up on the way. The only exception to this is that we self pace our practices if the symptoms become too problematic.
I was wondering, how does your friend suggest that you redirect the kundalini?
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 07:29:05 AM
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Hi Christi,
Ok first thing, that person is not my friend so he might be a foe which is why I'm asking advice here on AYP.
He seems to belong to a special sect called Kaula that specifically raise kundalini into vajra-nadi via a sexual technique. Kaula system knows this will become a dead end but have found a method to re-divert kundalini into the central channel. This person seems to have also good experience on Tibetan sects including Bon Po but also Nath sects, the latter being how I met him on another forum.
Just to make sure I read correctly your answer below: do you confirm vajra-nadi is inside sushumna and it is a dead end if kundalini is awakened into it ?
Please note in your above answer: I don't think it is kundalini that could block manipura chakra but rather a powerful blockage into manipura creating the diversion of kundalini.
One question about AYP system: self-pacing awareness is very important indeed to not get burned by the kundalini syndrome but it can be also a trap. It is ego who decides self-pacing so this might a be problem when trying to dissolve a difficult blockage. In other words, the self-pacing decision becomes an escape to the total surrender of shakti trying to burn the blockage, especially tricky blockages found into the central channel which is non-dual as opposed as blockages found into dual channels so it could be a sort of catch 2 situation than some call a dead end.
Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 07 2008 08:00:49 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 11:52:41 AM
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Hi Albert,
quote:
He seems to belong to a special sect called Kaula that specifically raise kundalini into vajra-nadi via a sexual technique.
What's the sexual technique? I know everyone here is dying to ask so I will do so first!
quote:
Kaula system knows this will become a dead end but have found a method to re-divert kundalini into the central channel.
And how do they then re-divert it?
quote:
Just to make sure I read correctly your answer below: do you confirm vajra-nadi is inside sushumna and it is a dead end if kundalini is awakened into it ?
It seems to be generally agreed that the vajra nadi is inside sushumna, as are the other two mentioned. See here from Kheper.net:
"These four nadis are:
Sushumna-nadi starts from the Kanda-mula, lying just below the Muladhara chakra, and goes upward centrally within the vertebral column.
Vajra-nadi starts from the starting point of Sushumna and goes upward, lying within Sushumna.
Chitrini-nadi starts at the starting point of the Vajra nadi and goes upward, lying within the Vajra nadi.
Brahma nadi or Brahmarandhra nadi starts from the orifice of Swayambhu-linga in the Muladhara and goes upwards, lying within Chitrini
The chakras are actually said to be strung along the fine Chitrini nadi, rather than the Sushumna as is commonly stated in Western books on the subject."
from:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/nadis.html
As to it's dead end nature I cannot confirm it as I have no direct experience. When my kundalini awoke it went strait out of the top of my head which, according to this system would correspond with entry into the Brahma nadi I believe. I have seen in several places on the web that it (vajra) is a dead end route, but then web sites have a tendency to copy one another in their information, as I just did in the quote above. 
quote:
Please note in your above answer: I don't think it is kundalini that could block manipura chakra but rather a powerful blockage into manipura creating the diversion of kundalini.
Yes I agree, kundalini does not cause blockages, but rather can be stopped or diverted in it's path by blockages. More usually it is slowed in it's upward path rather than diverted.
quote:
One question about AYP system: self-pacing awareness is very important indeed to not get burned by the kundalini syndrome but it can be also a trap. It is ego who decides self-pacing so this might a be problem when trying to dissolve a difficult blockage. In other words, the self-pacing decision becomes an escape to the total surrender of shakti trying to burn the blockage, especially tricky blockages found into the central channel which is non-dual as opposed as blockages found into dual channels so it could be a sort of catch 2 situation than some call a dead end.
Absolutely, it is a danger built into the system. And as you know there are many systems of spiritual practice with no self-pacing element built into them. Many Buddhist systems involve people making strong determinations. They decide to sit for a certain length of time every day for example, and not move whatever happens! Obviously this also comes with its dangers.
In AYP someone could self-pace themselves to a level where they are making no progress at all, or avoiding practices at a time when it would be most benefitial, and I'm sure it happens at times. It's a kind of "safety-first" system. But the alternative would involve a serious scaling back of powerful practices (to make the system safe), and perhaps much slower spiritual progress in the long run.
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 11:57:18 PM
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Hi Christi,
Regarding the Kaula-style to awaken kundalini into vajra-nadi then re-divert it into sushumna, I only have partial knowledge and experience so i cannot answer your question neither help myself as of today.
It was my hope to meet an AYP member also initiated by kaula sect so i could check if AYP system can be a re-divertion method because the re-divertion does not use sexuality as opposed to the vajra-nadi rising.
It was also my hope to find an AYP member also experienced into tibetan sects to see if the tibetan chakra/channels system can re-divert a vajra-nadi rising.
The information on kheper.net is correct and free of web-contamination. I happen to be in close contact with a Tirtha sect where one book "Yoga Vani" written by Swami Shankar Purushottam Tirtha much before web existence clearly says about the concentric layers of sushumna nadi, vajra-nadi, chitrini nadi and brahma-nadi.
Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 08 2008 2:56:43 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 11:56:10 PM
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Thanks to AYP forum and some of its threads, i've discovered this site:
http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/k...contents.php
It seems vajra-nadi rising issue is slightly adressed on:
- http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/k...wakening.php (look at Tantric initiation)
- http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/k...wakening.php (look at Path of yogis not bhogis)
One way to understand the risk of the "cul de sac" of a vajra-nadi rising is an attachment to intense tantric sexual pleasure instead of just using tantric sexual bliss as a spiritual vehicle.
One classical example of such "dead end" is the behaviour of western society towards tantra via disciples of Osho who only marketed sexual techniques to become multi-orgasmic. From a planetary view, it is good on the long term to use the sexual consumption attitude of westerners as a fuel to discover body orgasm hence a kundalini awakening (i.e. non ejaculatory for men) but can also be a trap by attaching to the turbo-bliss forgetting to unite it with emptiness in order to really reach buddhahood.
Like we say in France, sexual orgasm is "une petite mort" translated as "a little death" so it is one quick road to ego dissolution linked to experiencing the real nature of biological death but one need lots of prelimaries to go that route !
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 12 2008 11:51:04 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 06:38:43 AM
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Hi All,
I've been reading again the different mail exchanges I had with the person I've mentionned earlier in this thread. Let's suppose I really have a vajra-rising that needs re-divertion into sushumna, which AYP practice would be best to self-re-divert kundalini flowing from penis-nadi but not entering into sushumna ?
Here is some detailled perception of my problem that initiated the correspondence with the person on another forum:
I've tried different paths to clear deeply the lower triangle chakras in my stomach. In particular, when I practice karmamudra with my wife, I have tantric body orgasm (non ejaculatory) but due to my specific blockage, it never goes through my stomach or just partially I guess. It is in itself a fascinating situation that energy routes somehow reconnect through some secondary channels rejoining around my heart chakra, maybe a bit higher in the other channels to finally produce a partial body orgasm or macro-cosmic circulation. The blockage is really strong because I can trace energy through most parts of my body (head, arms, upper torso & legs) except I cannot trace the energy in my stomach and heart area eventhough I do not ejaculate. On the other hand, my wife feels very deeply in her body when i have that specific energy circulation prior and then during my body orgasm. It is like she is more aware or awake of what you really goes in me that I refuse to feel consciously.
The person clearly indicated the re-divertion is through non-sexual techniques as opposed as Kaula-Style genital technique hence sexual used to awaken kundalini into vajra-nadi.
Thank you in advance, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 13 2008 11:38:01 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2008 : 11:01:16 PM
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I was wondering why no answer but realized that AYP approach is under the hood so you already answered.
Interesting to observe that awakening kundalini into manipura gate instead of muladhara gate is equivalent to gTummo practice strongly suggested by tibetan school:
http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/k...a_chakra.php (check for The center of awakening)
In particular but awakening of manipura is what we call a confirmed awakening.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 15 2008 12:09:02 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2008 : 07:26:10 AM
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Hi Albert,
quote:
Let's suppose I really have a vajra-rising that needs re-divertion into sushumna, which AYP practice would be best to self-re-divert kundalini flowing from penis-nadi but not entering into sushumna ?
Deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama would be the best. Start with deep meditation, and then (after some weeks or months) when you feel stable, you can add the spinal breathing. Spinal breathing works tho clear the sushumna between root and the brow centre. If you read the descriptions of the concentric nadis within the sushumna you can probably work out which nadi this is. Later on, when ecstatic conductivity is established in the body primarily through these two practices, the crown is added into the equation.
The practices work hand in hand, so it is not a good idea to work only with spinal breathing pranayama without deep meditation.
Wishing you all the best
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2008 : 11:31:33 PM
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Hi Christi,
Does deep meditation corresponds to the practice of lesson 13 ?
I've never done Pranayama so far eventhough I've some experience via my own system to move up (via inhaling) or down (via exhaling) energy through the diverted route I experience.
Quieting the mind by meditation is indeed the most difficult thing for me but I feel trying for a while lesson 13.
Thank you for your support and advices, Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 16 2008 12:13:11 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2008 : 06:02:22 AM
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Hi Selfonlypath,
quote:
Hi Christi,
Does deep meditation corresponds to the practice of lesson 13 ?
Yes, deep meditation is discussed by Yogani in lesson 13, but it is good also to read the following questions and answers to get a better light on how to do it.
Spinal breathing pranayama is discussed in lesson 39 and the following few lessons.
quote:
I've never done Pranayama so far eventhough I've some experience via my own system to move up (via inhaling) or down (via exhaling) energy through the diverted route I experience.
In AYP spinal breathing (taken from Kriya Yoga) we also go up with the inbreath and down with the outbreath, so you should find it easy.
quote:
Quieting the mind by meditation is indeed the most difficult thing for me but I feel trying for a while lesson 13.
Trying to make the mind quiet with meditation is not really a good idea, and is not the aim of deep meditation. It is too difficult, especially at the present time in the earths history. Instead, try to distinguish between what is real and what is not real. Silence is found not in the absense of thoughts, which arise naturally as a product of the mind, but it is a quality that surrounds everything. If you are using a mantra as in AYP deep meditation, you will be able to hear the silence both surrounding the mantra, and any thoughts or feelings that come up. Pay attention to the silence and you will see that it is vast and wide. It is ever-present, like the ocean beneath the waves.
Gradually thoughts will become less dominant in your awareness, but that is a by-product of resting in the silence that surrounds them, not a product of quitening the thoughts themselves.
Hope that helps.
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 01:12:41 AM
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I tell you what, it is the first time I really understand what is quiet and non dynamic meditation by reading lessons 13 up to 38 which are crystal clear in the explanations and examples.
Blessings for AYP digital university.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 19 2008 03:29:40 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
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Different risings
