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 Posted - Jul 07 2005 : 6:45:36 PM
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752 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:35pm
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) obsidian9999
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Jim,
By the way, congratulations on these great experiences you are
having. Particularly about the surrenderish stuff and so on.
If I am being apparently skeptical about Kundalini, it is not by any
means an attempt to diminish your experience. I think what you are
getting might *very well* be the-real-slim-shady Kundalini. I just
don't know how to position all of it, as I explained.
Let me tell you something of my own experience.
Many years ago, I started going into Samadhi. During meditation my
breath would essentially stop, and my mind would go into a sort
of 'void state', the mental equivalent of a physical high vacuum.
At one stage, I held my breath totally for four minutes (timed)
without effort. And I mean without effort. No gasping at the end of
it at all. I was able to reproduce this state for many months.
This is a highly esteemed 'attainment' particularly on the, shall we
say, right-hand-path, (top down) much as Kundalini is a highly
esteemed 'attainment' on the left (bottom up path). (I know these
are not distinct paths as such, but more qualities of emphasis, or
approach).
I won't say my progress since then has been disappointing. In fact,
I've been very grateful for, and happy with what has been happening
since that time. But I will say that I am not enlightented now (many
years later), despite what I interpreted at the time as the promise
of those events. Sometimes we get a great preview of what is to
come, but we never know the 'time or the hour' of when it is
coming. Which is fine, since we are supposed to live in the NOW
anyway. :)
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Wow. Well, most of all...I'd like to render forth a
resounding "Idunno!" But here are a few
> scattered thoughts, like a toddler scrawling in crayon.
>
> Kundalini is not just energy going up your spine. I've been doing
macrocosmic orbit work
> for years; and been able to conjure up a very palpable experience
of energy up spine for
> all that time. Wasn't a torrent of kundalini. Was the drip of
prana. There's energy and then
> there's ENERGY. So a report of something energetic happening with
spine and head don't
> necessarily equate with kundalini. For example, we all experience
spine energy from day
> one with spinal breathing. When mojo rises, you know it, though. No
question.
>
> I have no idea what the awakening numbers have been, then and now.
No one polls for
> that! I can tell you I'm nowhere near enlightened. And I can tell
you that I'm pretty
> damned sure I'm not one in 500,000,000. Or anywhere close to it.
But I'm a creature of my
> time; I only know now now. If this happened in 1971, maybe I'd
have a completely
> different perspective. It's clear the process is accelerating...
like popcorn kernals in a hot
> pan. Critical mass is near. So I'm just riding a wave (whether the
mosque helped or not I
> have no idea at all...just a great story...and worth taking the
time to tell just to elicit Ali's
> posting, which I'm awed by and will reply to soon).
>
> As to whether "kundalini is getting weaker", that doesn't make
intuitive sense to me. It's
> often translated as "evolutionary" energy...it's the energy at the
core of every living being.
> It is, as economists say, commoditized! I.e. kundalini is
kundalini.
>
> So why am I not levitating and godly? Well...everything's relative.
I can't share much of
> what I'm going thru with friends or family. They can't conceive of
even .1% of it. And my
> friends and family are pretty hip and smart and practice hatha
yoga. My building
> superintendent, Bob, for example, hasn't figured out that he's pure
energy inhabiting a
> lifeless doll, I'm pretty sure (could be wrong). So maybe all of us
here, walking in this
> direction, may be further toward the end of the bell curve than we
realize.
>
> And if that puts a warm feeling of superiority in your veins, purge
it, because even among
> the spiritually asleep there are those who are kinder than any of
us. I had dinner with my
> mom tonight, and I wasn't present for her 99% of the time. Couldn't
show her I loved her,
> simply enjoy being with her and her energy. Acted vacant and
peevish; got frustrated when
> she said anything slightly ditzy and let her see my frustration,
horrifying her by mirroring
> her diminishment (because I can't accept it...I want her to be who
she was). And as soon as
> she dies, I"m going to awaken to the reality of what she means to
me and wish I'd behaved
> differently. And I KNOW this and yet I still can't budge. So I'm
superior???
>
> I think nobody has clear answers to all your questions. I think you
do the work on self, you
> open up, purify, open up, purify, and you make progress and maybe
help others along the
> narrow foothold you've found, and you eventually develop
understanding of some
> elements of some things (e.g. the distant vibrations of popping
popcorn). I don't think
> there exists a person who can sit down and explain all the details
for the mechanisms for
> the big system with total aplomb (and only crackpots try). People
just make their way, gain
> insight and wisdom, but don't at any point get the blueprints for
the system. There's no
> spiritual Stephen Hawking. But even on that, I could be wrong. I
don't know.
>
> What I know for sure is: meditate and it all gets better; it moves
us in the direction we all
> want to move in. So I don't ask TOO many questions! I've asked and
answered a lot of
> questions over the years and it didn't get me closer to where I
want to be. AYP is more
> practical...it's about DOING stuff, rather than intellectualizing.
To riff on the old joke...
>
> Q: "How do you get to Taj Mahal?"
> A: Practice!
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Jim,
> >
> > just to put some stuff about Kundalini experience into
perspective,
> > one of my friends who was being treated with 'Network
Chiropracty'
> > (their term for being treated is "receiving care") was told that
it
> > is common to feel an 'energy flowing up from the base of your
spine
> > to your head', and she said that she does feel it during 'care'.
> >
> > Another is that a guy I knew years ago tried meditating and he
told
> > me immediately afterwards that he felt an 'energy flowing up
along
> > his spine and wrapping around his head, kind of like a walking
> > stick'. He had never heard of Kundalini. I was amazed and
thought
> > that Kundalini yoga might be a great path for him. He tried it
and
> > he said it did nothing for him.
> >
> > Things like this bring up a number of questions. One is, is it
so
> > significant an experience at all? The other is, if people
> > believed it so significant ( 1 in 500,000,000), is there more
than
> > one kind of Kundalini experience, maybe one kind true, say
heavy-
> > duty, real, gangbusters Kundalini, and the other Kundalini-
Lite? :)
> >
> > Because (I'm not so sure of the demographics, but I know India's
> > population has exploded), maybe 1 in 500,000,000 meant about two
in
> > the 20th century in India up to 1977. Do these figures make
sense?
> > If so many people are 'kundalini-awakened' now, how do they
compare
> > to maybe the two most spiritually advanced people in India in the
> > 20th century India? And were these two the presumed kundalini-
> > awakened two? If no, is kundalini necessary; if yes, has
> > kundalini, as an experience, weakened in power?
> >
> > Just some food for thought,
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > There's a lot of claptrap written about kundalini. And also a
lot
> > (like Gopti Krishna) that's
> > > smart and sincere, but only applies to the writer and what he
> > believes and was told. Until
> > > recently, there wasn't a very wide pool of people to draw
> > conclusions from (plus kundalini
> > > awakening tends to be a personal, individual thing) so there
are
> > no sure conclusions. It's
> > > really important to bear this in mind. It also makes it a bit
> > scary, 'cuz it's hard to get firm
> > > answers to stuff. Be aware that this is the path of Adventure
> > Travel. This is not a bucket
> > > tour of Cancun where everything's chaperoned and
> > >
> > > I had a teacher once who had a great line: we're not hot house
> > flowers, we're weeds. So
> > > true. I'm still eating all sorts of crazy stuff, and every cell
in
> > my body is still sighing. So no
> > > need to be uptight. I'm not drinking anymore, but that's not
> > a "resisting sin" thing, it's
> > > more that clarity feels so delicious, I have no desire to
> > intentionally muddle myself. Much
> > > as I still love the IDEA of a cold beer or a delicious wine. I
> > might have a glass at any
> > > moment...but simply don't.
> > >
> > > Anyway, kundalini awakening is honestly not that big a big
deal.
> > It doesn't make
> > > everything better. It's just another stop on the path, another
> > opening along a continuum of
> > > opening. The pleasure and opening and purification you're
getting
> > from the practices right
> > > NOW is as good as it gets, so soak it up and try not to turn
> > practice into yet
> > > another striving for advancement (not that you are; I'm just
> > reminding you!). I've strived
> > > for things, climbed ladders, gained proficiency in many realms
in
> > my life, and none of it
> > > brought peace or happiness. Spiritual practices work best when
> > they're more like brushing
> > > your teeth than striving/accomplishing. By which I don't mean
> > they're not sacred. Brushing
> > > your teeth is as sacred as anything.
> > >
> > > So if you want to congratulate me on flossing out some errant
> > crumb lodged between my
> > > molars, I'll cheefully high five you back! :)
> > new_mail
756 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:19am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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"If I am being apparently skeptical about Kundalini, it is not by any
means an attempt to diminish your experience."
Shoot, I'll diminish it enough for both of us! I'm just enjoying the hell out of walking this
path...I hope everybody can sense that...and hope you all feel likewise about things.
I really hate the word "attainment" applied to this path. All we're trying to do is clear away
delusion. And jumping from 90% deluded to 80% deluded is not "attainment". We're
washing our windows. Clearing off soot so we can enduringly perceive what's always been
the case - we are divine light. What's to "attain"? We're janitors, cleaning up the puke and
grime of previous attachments (karma). It's more like brushing teeth than going for Eagle
Scout.
Big enlightnment, little enlightenment, big kundalini, little kundalini, feats of breath
control....Idunno. I just aspire to be a little clearer and a little more open after my practice
tonight. The Colorado River just doing its thing slowly etches the Grand Canyon, never
looking up to wonder "how am I doing?"
David, please don't wince at this posting. I'm not castigating you. I know you already
understand everything I'm saying, and that I'm just picking at language. Don't worry, i
know, I know! But let's all keep reminding each other of this, anyway. From a young age,
we've all been coaxed to climb ladders, to get good at things, to constantly monitor our
"standing". It's devilishly tough to drop all that. But dropping stuff is the heart of the
practice, so the more dropping experience we all get, the better!
For fascinating insight into this, read Chogyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual
Materialism", a fantastic book on avoiding the ego traps even the most sincere,
unpompous seeker faces.
763 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:09am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) obsidian9999
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Hello Jim,
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> I really hate the word "attainment" applied to this path. All we're
trying to do is clear away
> delusion. And jumping from 90% deluded to 80% deluded is
not "attainment".
I agree. That's why I put 'attainment' in quotes, but I did not get
side-tracked into why.
> Big enlightnment, little enlightenment, big kundalini, little
kundalini, feats of breath
> control....Idunno. I just aspire to be a little clearer and a
little more open after my practice
> tonight. The Colorado River just doing its thing slowly etches the
Grand Canyon, never
> looking up to wonder "how am I doing?"
What I was doing (or trying to do) is minimize the risk of people
getting messed up on the idea of " 1 in 500,000,000 ". I am trying
to help people who might have an experience which makes them think
they are going to be imminently enlightened.
This is a real risk. I know because I went through it, as I said
from my experience of samadhi. (There was no breath control
involved, by the way, hrrrmmmph!)
>> I'm not saying you're wrong, but Yogani says (and my experience
corroborates)
that
kundalini awakening is spiritual puberty, nothing more. It's a
fabulous new tool
chest, it's
a fantastic clearing away of lots of grit and grime, and it opens
vast pathways.
I think this is probably right. It don't think it fits too well with
the "1 in 500,000,000" Kundalini idea from that yogi you mentioned.
I know you are wincing now Jim, regretting that you put those words
down --- you were trying to say just that something is happening with
Kundalini getting much more common. You want to erase the "1 in
500,000,000" concept. I'll drive you mad if I say "1 in 500,000,000"
again.
[dances around] 1 in 500,000,000! 1 in 500,000,000! 1 in
500,000,000! 1 in 500,000,000! 1 in 500,000,000!.....
770 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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"(There was no breath control involved, by the way, hrrrmmmph!)"
YES! Of course! Touche! (or however you spell that!). "Breath Control" was an idiotic way
for me to put it...I was typing (even thinking) carelessly! Hoisted by my own petard! :)
"I think this is probably right. It don't think it fits too well with
the "1 in 500,000,000" Kundalini idea from that yogi you mentioned.
I know you are wincing now Jim, regretting that you put those words
down --- you were trying to say just that something is happening with
Kundalini getting much more common. You want to erase the "1 in
500,000,000" concept. I'll drive you mad if I say "1 in 500,000,000"
again."
Hmmm...major cyberdisconnect. By the same token I'm the only man on earth with a cell
phone camera....if this were 1971. Which it's not. :) My point was that kundalini awakening
is nowhere near 1 in 500,000,000 these days. As YOgani says, the pace is accelerating
dramatically. It's like popcorn popping in a skillet. It's exponentially more common today,
that's one of the tenets of AYP. So...catch the wave, everybody! And whether one's
kundalini is awake, asleep, or just groggy and brewing coffee, I hope everyone enjoys the
process. It's all process!
I am, by the way, 1 in 500,000,000 in that I can wiggle my right and left ears
independently. All revere me, who attained this high siddhi at the age of 11....
772 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:18pm
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) obsidian9999
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<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>> you were trying to say just that something is happening with
> Kundalini getting much more common.
> Hmmm...major cyberdisconnect. By the same token I'm the only man on
earth with a cell
Not sure there was a cyberdisconnect. I was trying to say that that
was all you were saying (see above). I was trying to protect you
from misinterpretation.
Anyway, never mind. On to more important things.
> I am, by the way, 1 in 500,000,000 in that I can wiggle my right
and left ears
> independently. All revere me, who attained this high siddhi at the
age of 11....
Interesting coincidence. So can I. Seriously. I shall be humble
and not one-up you by telling you the tender age at which I attained
this particular siddhi. :)
774 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:14pm
Subject: The Independent Wiggling of Ears (was "Contagious Kundalini") jim_and_his_...
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David,
I do believe that I was confused about what you were saying (it's hard to communicate
perfectly in online forums...sorry to be unhip).
But I don't believe you can truly wiggle your ears independently. I think this is, if anything,
a LESSER variety of ear wiggling. Or perhaps independent ear wiggling is on the rise, in
which case the relevant point isn't how young you were when you acquired the siddhi, but
what year it happened in. My ear lobe awakening occured in the 1970's, when NO one was
wiggling their ears independently.
739 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:27am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hi David,
Robert Bruce and some others who are kundalini awakened in the heavy duty sense as you put it, state there is a definite difference between Kundalini awakened (proper-heavy duty, freight train experience, as some would argue) and the light version, which is actually a flow of prana up the spine. To paraphrase another Swami and Tibetan Buddhist initiate, Kundalini Shakti is a fancy name for Prana, so in a broader sense, they would seem to be the same thing. But in a phenomenological sense, and surrounding associated symptoms/experiences, (like states of cosmic consciousness and variations in-between) they are totally different. My view, is prana is derived from Kundalini Shakti, and other sources, Shakti is its Cosmic source, prana derived there from is a stepped down version :-)
Robert has said to me many times, he believes it is very, very, very, difficult to achieve a full blown -K- awakening of Gopi's freight train type. He (Robert) has had about thirty of them and it took about eight hours a day of meditation for months at a time working specifically on kundalini pranayam to achieve this. The result was he died the first time. Yes, as amazing and implausible as that sounds, he destroyed his nervous system with that level of energy which was awakened. Naturally he is alive, so you may question this as you see fit, but he says three ascended masters appeared at the time, two shook their heads at his stupidity, and left, the other restored his body and initiated him into Cosmic truths and revelations not legal to speak of.
Robert goes on to say that the likely hood of individuals achieving full blown -k- awakening, is the same as the number of humans/athletes who will win a gold medal at the Olympics. It is very small and requires just as much time and effort. He feels that today's modern saturation of awakened individuals are lying or exaggerating to sell books and promote their egos, or are delusional. Yet there is a tremendous amount of semi-awakened individuals around today, these are of the lesser pranic version.
The above views seem congruent with my intuition also and others, who like Robert, have achieved real deal awakening, due to years and years of meditation, hours and hours a day. But we have had this discussion before haven't we ;-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
746 From: "tom_orgad" <orgad1@bezeqint.net>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:24am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) tom_orgad
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Hello Adam,
Do you happen to know which meditation techniques has Robert Bruce
practiced in order to reach his awakening?
Cheers,
Tom
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Adam West" <adamwest1@i...> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> Robert Bruce and some others who are kundalini awakened in the
heavy duty sense as you put it, state there is a definite difference
between Kundalini awakened (proper-heavy duty, freight train
experience, as some would argue) and the light version, which is
actually a flow of prana up the spine. To paraphrase another Swami
and Tibetan Buddhist initiate, Kundalini Shakti is a fancy name for
Prana, so in a broader sense, they would seem to be the same thing.
But in a phenomenological sense, and surrounding associated
symptoms/experiences, (like states of cosmic consciousness and
variations in-between) they are totally different. My view, is
prana is derived from Kundalini Shakti, and other sources, Shakti is
its Cosmic source, prana derived there from is a stepped down
version :-)
>
> Robert has said to me many times, he believes it is very,
very, very, difficult to achieve a full blown -K- awakening of
Gopi's freight train type. He (Robert) has had about thirty of
them and it took about eight hours a day of meditation for months
at a time working specifically on kundalini pranayam to achieve
this. The result was he died the first time. Yes, as amazing and
implausible as that sounds, he destroyed his nervous system with
that level of energy which was awakened. Naturally he is alive, so
you may question this as you see fit, but he says three ascended
masters appeared at the time, two shook their heads at his
stupidity, and left, the other restored his body and initiated him
into Cosmic truths and revelations not legal to speak of.
>
> Robert goes on to say that the likely hood of individuals
achieving full blown -k- awakening, is the same as the number of
humans/athletes who will win a gold medal at the Olympics. It is
very small and requires just as much time and effort. He feels that
today's modern saturation of awakened individuals are lying or
exaggerating to sell books and promote their egos, or are
delusional. Yet there is a tremendous amount of semi-awakened
individuals around today, these are of the lesser pranic version.
>
> The above views seem congruent with my intuition also and
others, who like Robert, have achieved real deal awakening, due to
years and years of meditation, hours and hours a day. But we have
had this discussion before haven't we ;-)
>
> In kind regards,
>
> Adam.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
748 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:10am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) obsidian9999
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Thanks a lot Adam.
> Robert goes on to say that the likely hood of individuals
achieving full blown -k- awakening, is the same as the number of
humans/athletes who will win a gold medal at the Olympics. It is
very small and requires just as much time and effort. He feels that
today's modern saturation of awakened individuals are lying or
exaggerating to sell books and promote their egos, or are
delusional. Yet there is a tremendous amount of semi-awakened
individuals around today, these are of the lesser pranic version.
This complies with my own intuition and beliefs on the matter.
Another thing is that I'd never believe that *anyone* has had the
real, high-powered Kundalini experience, just on the basis of their
telling me of their experience.
I think a good guideline is to watch out if the amazing things a
person claims but cannot prove weighs heavily (in their teaching
life) relative to what is proven (or visible) about them.
If a person manifests extraordinary enlightenment, open and truly
tested, not merely simulated by a cult setting, that is probably
the only condition I would believe that a person is truly Kundalini
awakened. Until that time, their telling me they are among the
Kundalini awakened few will get as much weight from me as their
telling me that they sometimes eat. :)
Best regards,
-David
743 From: Amenta Amenta <sethem131@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:47am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) sethem131
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I have been enveloped with the teachings of the
Kundalini Tantras, from the Bihar Shcool of India I
live in the UK < David> it clearly highlights the
uniform understanding you presented!!! thanks for the
thought>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--- obsidian9999 <obsidian9999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello Jim,
>
> just to put some stuff about Kundalini experience
> into perspective,
> one of my friends who was being treated with
> 'Network Chiropracty'
> (their term for being treated is "receiving care")
> was told that it
> is common to feel an 'energy flowing up from the
> base of your spine
> to your head', and she said that she does feel it
> during 'care'.
>
> Another is that a guy I knew years ago tried
> meditating and he told
> me immediately afterwards that he felt an 'energy
> flowing up along
> his spine and wrapping around his head, kind of
> like a walking
> stick'. He had never heard of Kundalini. I was
> amazed and thought
> that Kundalini yoga might be a great path for him.
> He tried it and
> he said it did nothing for him.
>
> Things like this bring up a number of questions.
> One is, is it so
> significant an experience at all? The other is,
> if people
> believed it so significant ( 1 in 500,000,000), is
> there more than
> one kind of Kundalini experience, maybe one kind
> true, say heavy-
> duty, real, gangbusters Kundalini, and the other
> Kundalini-Lite? :)
>
> Because (I'm not so sure of the demographics, but I
> know India's
> population has exploded), maybe 1 in 500,000,000
> meant about two in
> the 20th century in India up to 1977. Do these
> figures make sense?
> If so many people are 'kundalini-awakened' now, how
> do they compare
> to maybe the two most spiritually advanced people in
> India in the
> 20th century India? And were these two the presumed
> kundalini-
> awakened two? If no, is kundalini necessary; if
> yes, has
> kundalini, as an experience, weakened in power?
>
> Just some food for thought,
>
> Regards,
>
> -David
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
>
> <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > There's a lot of claptrap written about kundalini.
> And also a lot
> (like Gopti Krishna) that's
> > smart and sincere, but only applies to the writer
> and what he
> believes and was told. Until
> > recently, there wasn't a very wide pool of people
> to draw
> conclusions from (plus kundalini
> > awakening tends to be a personal, individual
> thing) so there are
> no sure conclusions. It's
> > really important to bear this in mind. It also
> makes it a bit
> scary, 'cuz it's hard to get firm
> > answers to stuff. Be aware that this is the path
> of Adventure
> Travel. This is not a bucket
> > tour of Cancun where everything's chaperoned and
> >
> > I had a teacher once who had a great line: we're
> not hot house
> flowers, we're weeds. So
> > true. I'm still eating all sorts of crazy stuff,
> and every cell in
> my body is still sighing. So no
> > need to be uptight. I'm not drinking anymore, but
> that's not
> a "resisting sin" thing, it's
> > more that clarity feels so delicious, I have no
> desire to
> intentionally muddle myself. Much
> > as I still love the IDEA of a cold beer or a
> delicious wine. I
> might have a glass at any
> > moment...but simply don't.
> >
> > Anyway, kundalini awakening is honestly not that
> big a big deal.
> It doesn't make
> > everything better. It's just another stop on the
> path, another
> opening along a continuum of
> > opening. The pleasure and opening and purification
> you're getting
> from the practices right
> > NOW is as good as it gets, so soak it up and try
> not to turn
> practice into yet
> > another striving for advancement (not that you
> are; I'm just
> reminding you!). I've strived
> > for things, climbed ladders, gained proficiency in
> many realms in
> my life, and none of it
> > brought peace or happiness. Spiritual practices
> work best when
> they're more like brushing
> > your teeth than striving/accomplishing. By which I
> don't mean
> they're not sacred. Brushing
> > your teeth is as sacred as anything.
> >
> > So if you want to congratulate me on flossing out
> some errant
> crumb lodged between my
> > molars, I'll cheefully high five you back! :)
> new_mail
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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747 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:05am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hi Tom,
Yep, go to his site Astralpulse.com and find his free downloads of one of his books, New Energy Ways. It is a system which he intuitively devised/discovered, what you are looking for, is energy raising from the feet all the way up the spine to crown etc. It is all there, one big tutorial :-) Its worth checking out if your so inclined :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
775 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:49pm
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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I downloaded it, haven't had time to read yet. I agree that it's essential to discover that
you're acutally divine energy powering a lifeless doll (as some of the Indians put it, so
dramatically), so that's a good thing. But I gotta say all the astral projection talk on the
web site turns me off. I've been trying for many years now to have a real, serious, deep,
in-body experience. Once I get that firm and strong, I may start working on out-of-body.
Or, more likely, just keep doing the ecstatic grunt work of AYP and forego the trippy stuff.
Seems like distraction.
Anyway, I'm not putting down your recommendation, or even Bruce. Just riffing on his web
site. I"ll read through New Energy Ways.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Adam West" <adamwest1@i...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Yep, go to his site Astralpulse.com and find his free downloads of one of his books,
New Energy Ways. It is a system which he intuitively devised/discovered, what you are
looking for, is energy raising from the feet all the way up the spine to crown etc. It is all
there, one big tutorial :-) Its worth checking out if your so inclined :-)
>
> In kind regards,
>
> Adam.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
749 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:27am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hahahaa, mmm, yep I'm with you on that one mate :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
Thanks a lot Adam.
> Robert goes on to say that the likely hood of individuals
achieving full blown -k- awakening, is the same as the number of
humans/athletes who will win a gold medal at the Olympics. It is
very small and requires just as much time and effort. He feels that
today's modern saturation of awakened individuals are lying or
exaggerating to sell books and promote their egos, or are
delusional. Yet there is a tremendous amount of semi-awakened
individuals around today, these are of the lesser pranic version.
This complies with my own intuition and beliefs on the matter.
Another thing is that I'd never believe that *anyone* has had the
real, high-powered Kundalini experience, just on the basis of their
telling me of their experience.
I think a good guideline is to watch out if the amazing things a
person claims but cannot prove weighs heavily (in their teaching
life) relative to what is proven (or visible) about them.
If a person manifests extraordinary enlightenment, open and truly
tested, not merely simulated
by a cult setting, that is probably
the only condition I would believe that a person is truly Kundalini
awakened. Until that time, their telling me they are among the
Kundalini awakened few will get as much weight from me as their
telling me that they sometimes eat. :)
Best regards,
-David
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757 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:06am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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"If a person manifests extraordinary enlightenment, open and truly tested, not merely
simulated by a cult setting, that is probably the only condition I would believe that a
person is truly Kundalini awakened. "
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Yogani says (and my experience corroborates) that
kundalini awakening is spiritual puberty, nothing more. It's a fabulous new tool chest, it's
a fantastic clearing away of lots of grit and grime, and it opens vast pathways. But it's not
enlightenment or anything close to it, any more than puberty is akin to sexual maturity
(though it may seem that way to those who've not reached that point yet).
That's the AYP perspective, and it's my perspective as well. But I state it just FWIW, not to
be dogmatic.
759 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hi Jim,
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Yogani says (and my experience corroborates) that
kundalini awakening is spiritual puberty, nothing more.
I think this is accurate also, certainly, it would appear that kundalini awakening, how ever intense, is merely a step on the Path. The path of Return is infinite and never ending, this is due to the inherent nature of the Infinity of God, thus one goes on discovering (Re-discovering) God/Self, for all eternity.
While this re-discovery is eternal and ever changing, simultaneously, one (God/You) is unchanging and the same, nothing was ever lost, nothing is ever gained, I simply am, expressing my infinite potential.
It's a fabulous new tool chest, it's
a fantastic clearing away of lots of grit and grime, and it opens vast pathways. But it's not
enlightenment or anything close to it, any more than puberty is akin to sexual maturity
(though it may seem that way to those who've not reached that point yet).
That's the AYP perspective, and it's my perspective as well. But I state it just FWIW, not to
be dogmatic.
I think you have made a fair paraphrase ;-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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761 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:37am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hi Jim and all,
Shoot, I'll diminish it enough for both of us! I'm just enjoying the hell out of walking this
path...I hope everybody can sense that...and hope you all feel likewise about things.
Certainly am, thanks for the kind sentiments :-)
I really hate the word "attainment" applied to this path. All we're trying to do is clear away
delusion.
Mmm, this is an interesting subtlety many of us have wrestled with. It reminds me of the Advaita vedanta (Non-Dualism) system of philosophy. Many with in that system/religion say, there is nothing to 'attain', just as many in the Zen system, say there is nothing to 'Get' . We already are enlightened, we already are God/Brahman, or Buddha Nature. I agree with this, and in striving to be something we believe we are not (enlightened), implies we are not God, and this by its very nature, keeps us from Realizing our 'True' God/Brahman/Buddha Nature.
Yet what has taken place, is a subtle adoption that the world and the little self is an illusion (this is a foundation belief with in Advaita vedanta) and only Self/God/Brahman/Buddha Nature is real. it says, let go of identification with this world and personality/little self, and you will realize Truth/God. This is one point of view, and I agree with it also, but.... One can also take the view of Qualified Non-Dualism, which is to say, all is one, I am already God, as stated above, yet simultaneously, the world is indeed real, I am indeed the little self, as well as the Absolute Self, and it will take some (if not intense) effort to realize my/our Macrocosmic (to use Hermetic/Rosicrucian concept of same) nature. So indeed, it would seem there is a dichotomy, an inherent contradiction, yet as we have seen, there is in reality (from one point of view) no contradiction, just truth existing simultaneously, but at multiple levels.
It is for the above stated reasons, that I maintain one should not diminish the value of our progress along the path of return, for on one level, we fight an inherent opposing force of inertia and instinctual magnetic attraction and identification with the delusions and illusions of the personality self and the material plane reality. You may pay lip service to the truth "I am", yet remain enamored with in attractions and identification of incarnation for ever. This would not be a problem, for it is no accident that we/I am here, and it is not punishment, karma, or having fallen from grace, merely I have come to experience; unqualified, with out prejudice or enforced compulsion, merely the experience of my infinite nature, incarnate and discarnate (so it appears to me).
Once incarnate though, should I feel the impulse to experience my Self re-emerging from my limited state, it will not happen with my creating/making it so. Further more, it will take place against the opposing forces of the lower levels of my own consciousness and of Cosmic laws operating with in this realm of existence/expression.
This is why I maintain, merely from just one point of view, (while simultaneously agreeing with the other/Advaita /Zen's view) and level of Self/Truth, that indeed such progress is worthy of our valued esteem, and not to be diminished. For the clearing of Delusion, from the perspective of the incarnate self, is 'no' small task, and on one level it is indeed an achievement! Naturally, in reality, (or from a slightly more Cosmic, or Absolute level) I have not achieved any thing at all, nor had I ever lost anything to begin with!
Big enlightenment, little enlightenment, big kundalini, little kundalini, feats of breath
control....Idunno. I just aspire to be a little clearer and a little more open after my practice
tonight.
Same thing! Just different sign posts it would seem to me ;-)
know, I know! But let's all keep reminding each other of this, anyway.
I wonder if we should be reminding each other of anything, to assume we have an accurate realization, worthy of being superior to another's view, such that we should remind them their view is wrong and this one is right, may be problematic :-)
From a young age,
we've all been coaxed to climb ladders, to get good at things, to constantly monitor our
"standing".
As stated in the above argument (an argument is all that it is, a proposition, a possible conclusion, not a declaration of fact) this world may be just as real as the Absolute Formless State, and to get anywhere, you will have to work at it and make it happen. This as a philosophical argument with in Indian spirituality has raged for centuries, it centers on, as state above, non-dualistic monism (God is all there is, the world is an illusion) as apposed to qualified non-dualism (God is all there is, the word is real). My position is, both theories are truth and accurate, just from two different levels of awareness. So in reality, Jim, I am not disagreeing with the point you have made, just developing a subtle variation. It is one that is really of the Tantric view (the world is real, the world is Divine, all experience is inherently valuable and constructive, all is one). How is this important? Our limitations are real, and it will take effort to overcome them; it will require discipline to realize your true nature, and this is the essential point I am making! Such effort is worthy of our esteem, with out attachment and egoic involvement!
For fascinating insight into this, read Chogyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual
Materialism", a fantastic book on avoiding the ego traps even the most sincere,
unpompous seeker faces.
Yep I agree, as I said, I do not disagree, just a bit of a slightly different interpretation is all. Finally, all said is my personal intuition, and acknowledged to be highly distorted and false, so I offer it as food for thought, to be looked at, smelt, tasted, consumed and excreted with all the rest of the nonsense and excrement that is perpetually babbled about on this plane of existence ;-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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764 From: "Paula Youmans" <paula@webboise.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:34am
Subject: Re: what adam said :) paula_youmans
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I found this quote in my inbox right after I sent my wows
Whenever two people meet there are really six people present. There is each
man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man
as he really is. - William James, 1842-1910, American
Psychologist/Professor/Author
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
767 From: "PamelaP" <pamela@rabboar.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:21am
Subject: RE: Re: what adam said :) pamelaporch
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Oh I LIKE that -- I'm stealing it - ;} ;}
Pamela P.
-----Original Message-----
From: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AYPforum@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Paula Youmans
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:34 AM
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: what adam said :)
I found this quote in my inbox right after I sent my wows
Whenever two people meet there are really six people present. There is
each
man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each
man
as he really is. - William James, 1842-1910, American
Psychologist/Professor/Author
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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765 From: "Paula Youmans" <paula@webboise.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:28am
Subject: That was amazing Adam! paula_youmans
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Wow.
I am speechless.
You just said so easily, what I cannot.
Wow.
LOL
~Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
768 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:48am
Subject: Re: That was amazing Adam! fraterandros1
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Hi Paula,
Thanks for your kind sentiments :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
Wow.
I am speechless.
You just said so easily, what I cannot.
Wow.
LOL
~Paula
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773 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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Adam said:
------
Finally, all said is my personal intuition, and acknowledged to be highly distorted and
false, so I offer it as food for thought, to be looked at, smelt, tasted, consumed and
excreted with all the rest of the nonsense and excrement that is perpetually babbled about
on this plane of existence ;-)
------
Just because we're trying to see through the veil creating us the illusion that this plane of
existence is the only one there is doesn't mean that there's anything WRONG with this
plane of existence. So long as we're here, in these bodies, in this world, playing video
games and eating chocolate pudding, we might as well glean what there is to glean and
create/enjoy the beauty and good works which can be created/enjoyed in this realm (and
ONLY in this realm!).
Non-infinite things aren't nonsense or excrement. All planes are worthy (so long as we
don't get attached to them), so don't be a reverse-snob! :)
In fact, your cogent and generous writing and the enthusiasm and passion with which you
frame your arguments are examples of what makes our existence here
absolutely worthwhile. The angels envy our enjoyment of Picasso and potato chips. I don't
want off this planet, I just want off the delusion that I'm trapped here.
778 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hey Jim,
>>Just because we're trying to see through the veil creating us the illusion that this plane of
existence is the only one there is doesn't mean that there's anything WRONG with this
plane of existence. So long as we're here, in these bodies, in this world, playing video
games and eating chocolate pudding, we might as well glean what there is to glean and
create/enjoy the beauty and good works which can be created/enjoyed in this realm (and
ONLY in this realm!)
Non-infinite things aren't nonsense or excrement. All planes are worthy (so long as we
don't get attached to them), so don't be a reverse-snob! :)
In fact, your cogent and generous writing and the enthusiasm and passion with which you
frame your arguments are examples of what makes our existence here
absolutely worthwhile. The angels envy our enjoyment of Picasso and potato chips. I don't
want off this planet, I just want off the delusion that I'm trapped here.<<
I agree with this with out reservation! You have misinterpreted what I said and meant. The excrement I was referring to, was the 'end' process of our analysis and thinking, our conclusions (hence excrement). It is our conclusions, which are so often failed attempts at grasping the infinite, and even the finite, resulting in what appears to me as misunderstood and misinterpreted babble :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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781 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:07am
Subject: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) jim_and_his_...
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Adam said:
------
I agree with this with out reservation! You have misinterpreted what I said
and meant. The excrement I was referring to, was the 'end' process of our
analysis and thinking, our conclusions (hence excrement). It is our conclusions,
which are so often failed attempts at grasping the infinite, and even the
finite, resulting in what appears to me as misunderstood and misinterpreted
babble :-)
------
You've misinterpreted what *I* said (are we really arguing when we seem to be agreeing
and encouraging each other so much?).
Yes, chitchatting can't lead us to the infinite. But that doesn't make it excrement or
babble...it just makes it non-efficacious for that particular purpose. But such writing and
exchange of views has value here in the samsara ("here in the samsara" ... great name for
a tune, no?). It's not worthless, there's a time/place for it. In fact, insofar as it fuels our
bhakti, it even has higher value. Sometimes ramblings can transmit the seed of the thing
itself, as a sort of carrier wave unrelated to the statement actually being made.
Talking about this stuff does, though, make a really crappy (to return to the excrement
imagery) substitue for actual practice. No doubt about that! Time for me to hit the floor
right now, I see....
784 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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Hi Jim,
Glad you checked it out, you may find something of service :-) Just to be clear though, I did not recommend it, just offered it for our consideration.
In kind regards,
Adam.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
786 From: "Adam West" <adamwest1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:24am
Subject: Re: Re: Contagious Kundalini (or: I think I'm turning Moslem) fraterandros1
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:-) Agreed....
In kind regards,
Adam.
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