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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 05:05:51 AM
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Hi..
I'm facing a little problem here..
Many times during meditation, while repeating the mantra, the nervous system is at ease, I feel the mantra vibrations, BUT...
I come to point where I simply drop into a very nice sleep!
then, suddenly I catch the mantra back, and fall into sleep or unconsciousness again...
After the 20 minutes, in the morning, I just feel like going back to bed instead of feeling refreshed!
One thing must be mentionned: I'm feeling very down those days, depressed and I have taste for nothing..
I tried to go out, have some fresh air in nature etc.
I'm still dealing with an uncomfortable emptiness, or nothingness inside... I guess this is not the positive one..
My body feels tired and aches everywhere...
Plus the bad weather outside doesn't help!
Any suggestions? |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 06:58:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard
HI Have a look at this post by Shanti there are some links here that may be of help to you.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3308#28318
Ok thank you!
and sorry, didn't know it had been discussed before..
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 07:27:58 AM
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It happens to me on and off. Sometimes before meditation I am feeling really awake and in tune, I do Pranayama and it is efforvescent and really works well. I start meditation and within a short time it's as if I am asleep, waking with a bit of a start as I remember what I am supposed to be doing.
It used to bother me, but it's just like any other activity.....if you go running you will know that somedays you feel on fire and then have a really bad ru, just as the opposite is true.
Unlike most people on the forum I cannot ever report feeling relaxed and refreshed after meditation. Relaxed, definitely yes.
You mention how you feel, when did you decide to feel like that ?
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 08:59:47 AM
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quote:
Ok thank you!
and sorry, didn't know it had been discussed before..
No need to be sorry we are all here to help each other |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 09:25:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
You mention how you feel, when did you decide to feel like that ?
Hi Karl,
Decide? Well, interesting you're using this word...
I was going to say "I just felt this way, didn't decide!"
Now I'm writing to you, I feel a bit better in my heart..
And actually, we could say that it's the consequence of a conscious decision to step out of my dark clouds...! yes!
But the previous negative feelings happened after a tough
emotionnal situation. I just had to deal, for the first time in my life, with "untrust" towards what I thought to be the closest person
to me: my friend (I hate the word "boyfriend")..
He just lied in my face, denying a fact that was simply real.
He lied to me, saying he stopped watching porno movies on the net..
whereas I had never been so open and flexible: I told him "just watch whatever you feel like watching, for whatever reason, this is YOUR problem, but please, stop denying it, and stop lying to me in my face!"
This is a summary of the situation I faced one week ago..
Then I realized, in fact only today, I truely realized that he's not the one who hurted me. I AM responsible for hurting myself..
Who am I to judge the behavior of anybody? I should not feel concerned, even if he's my friend..
And I think it should be applied to everything in life..
Misery always comes from the mind and the ego..
This may sound crazy or stupid for the ones who may read this post..
but this is how I feel now: I feel that this experience was a challenge for me. It has shown me the limitation of my ability to embrace and love the Other, whoever (s)he may be.
Would like to have your comments if you have any...
Thks.
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Edited by - Goddessinside on Feb 11 2009 09:27:51 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 12:34:10 PM
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Hello Goddessinside,
My experience with meditation is exactly as your described it. Getting kind of lost inside, like sleep and coming to again, and again. Afterwards i would feel relaxed but not energetic. Sometimes after meditating and resting (lying down) i would really just want to go to sleep. But i knew if i did that that i wouldn't feel the relaxing benefits of meditation, so i forced myself to get up.
And really that is all that meditation did for me. Nothing else. No light shows, fireworks, or any such thing.
I switched to asanas and pranayama before lying down and concentrating on the flow of breath in and out. This has had a much more profound effect that lasted all day. I am at the beginning of a course in a massive yoga book so i am doing boat pose 3 times, a breathing similar to spinal breathing without the visualisation, and then alternate nostril breathing. Followed by corpse pose, taking note of the body, making it feel "heavy" and looking out for tension anywhere, then concentrating on the flow of breath. And i have to say that the effects of this far outweigh any other practice i have done so far (this is going back to about 2003). If you are interested, i am learning from a book called "A systematic course in the ancient tantric techniques of yoga and kriya" by Swami Satyananda Saraswati of the Bihar school of Yoga.
Why do you feel pains all over your body?
I'm recovering from a throat infection, cold, and stomach acid problem right now. Believe me, it aint nice. I can feel pain every time something enters my stomach, including swallowing saliva. And my throat has been feeling bloody awful and really painful. Hopefully the anti biotics will kick in soon.
Can i ask for prayers?
Sorry to derail the thread.
I would say that it is normal or fairly normal for men to be attracted to more than one woman at a time and to seek to satisfy this through porno. It doesn't mean your partner doesn't like you or wants to be with someone else. I can't speak for your situation as i simply don't know it, but if you have relationship difficulties then you might not be entirely to blame for feeling the way you do with his habits. Just some thoughts. |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 1:15:29 PM
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Dear Gumpi,
I was about to share with everybody an extract about meditation that
sounds like an echo to my post and concerns about AYP meditation and other mantra meditation... so here it goes:
(...)There are many tricks to still the mind. You can use a mantra. You can sit silently in a Buddhaposture
and go on repeating AUM, AUM, AUM. If you go on and on and on repeating it, you will
get bored. That boredom will look like stillness. When you get bored, the mantra will drop. A sort
of sleep will be created within. Hypnosis – a sort of sleep. You will feel good, but that sleep is not
dhyana, that sleep in not silence. That sleep is simply negative. You have become dull because of
the repetition. Every repetition creates dullness. You have simply become dull. Through dullness
you cannot experience misery, you cannot experience suffering. The dullness is an anaesthetic. It
has made you unconscious.(...)
So, I'm just asking everybody, especially the long term practitionners, what they feel when they read the above..
Gumpi:
- my body aches, I think, because of much cleansing that followed a 3-days intense Yoga program I attented 10 days ago
- as for your stomach acidity, I can give you a detailed and whole approach for you to really heal your problem from the roots.
Antibiotics will only treat the symptoms and may be harmful to your body especially the liver, kidneys and intestines.
If you like, I can discuss it with you directly, by e-mail.
And of course you can ask for prayers, it always feels good! but really, you can treat your condition by watching what you eat.
- finally, concerning my realtionship issue, and porno watchers in general: not wrong to watch porno, especially for men.. once in a while.. but when it becomes a habit, especially for someone who is walking on the spiritual path, that is more than weird...
This is how I felt when I first discovered that.
BUT, 4 months later, I had to face another problem: denial and lie!!
this was hard to digest when it comes from the mouth of your supposedly beloved one!
BUT, again, I spent the last week working on that, deeply from inside, by meditating, reading and reflecting.. and I really feel today, as I'm writing to you, that I'm stepping out of the dark hole more mature, more loving and understanding..
That doesn't mean I forgot what happened; I just look at it in a neutral and detached way, seeing it as it is, because it is the reality, not the ideal image I had been carrying about my friend for 3 years now! So I take full responsibility for my pain and suffering.
This is not blaming myself!!! blaming anybody would be negative and not constructive! No, it's just witnessing things as they are, without covering them with honey..
That's it.
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Edited by - Goddessinside on Feb 11 2009 1:20:59 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 2:38:30 PM
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hi Goddess,
i don't personnaly agree with that statement cz out my own experience deep meditation is bliss, ecstacy, life.... and whenever i do pass out or feel sleeppy and take a little nap i get back very much refreshed as if i'm reborn again and new.
kindest regards,
Ananda |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 3:59:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
quote:
Originally posted by karl
You mention how you feel, when did you decide to feel like that ?
Hi Karl,
Decide? Well, interesting you're using this word...
I was going to say "I just felt this way, didn't decide!"
Now I'm writing to you, I feel a bit better in my heart..
And actually, we could say that it's the consequence of a conscious decision to step out of my dark clouds...! yes!
But the previous negative feelings happened after a tough
emotionnal situation. I just had to deal, for the first time in my life, with "untrust" towards what I thought to be the closest person
to me: my friend (I hate the word "boyfriend")..
He just lied in my face, denying a fact that was simply real.
He lied to me, saying he stopped watching porno movies on the net..
whereas I had never been so open and flexible: I told him "just watch whatever you feel like watching, for whatever reason, this is YOUR problem, but please, stop denying it, and stop lying to me in my face!"
This is a summary of the situation I faced one week ago..
Then I realized, in fact only today, I truely realized that he's not the one who hurted me. I AM responsible for hurting myself..
Who am I to judge the behavior of anybody? I should not feel concerned, even if he's my friend..
And I think it should be applied to everything in life..
Misery always comes from the mind and the ego..
This may sound crazy or stupid for the ones who may read this post..
but this is how I feel now: I feel that this experience was a challenge for me. It has shown me the limitation of my ability to embrace and love the Other, whoever (s)he may be.
Would like to have your comments if you have any...
Thks.
It's always how you decide whats right for you that matters and the boundaries that you need in your life which can only be good.
Recognising that others are only doing what they can with the resources they have available and always with a positive intention, even if it doesn't seem that way at the time and you might not agree with it or like it but you can choose.
You can check how you are doing: If the something similar happened to you in the future how do you feel right now ?
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 7:02:38 PM
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Hi Goddessinside:
Your experience is related to deep purification and opening going on inside, and some accumulated fatigue. It is not a failure of deep meditation, or of your practice. It is a normal part of the long term cycle. Just allow it to happen, and don't try and turn it into something else.
Sometimes it can be very much like a blackout during meditation, accompanied by dullness if the purification that is occurring is heavy. If you continue with your daily practice, it will work itself out in time and you will find new clarity and happiness. Many here have been through similar experiences. Just be patient and continue. This too shall pass.
See these lessons:
http://www.aypsite.org/17.html
http://www.aypsite.org/251.html
If you are feeling tired and achy during the day, it is suggested to get plenty of rest, and make sure to take plenty of rest before getting up after meditation too. You have been through a lot and it will take some time to unwind. Be kind to yourself.
Also, make sure to self-pace the duration of your practice as necessary. This is no time to be overdoing. It is likely that good things are happening inside, and there will be a new dawn for you. However, if symptoms and concerns persist, then it will also be good to see a doctor to make sure everything is medically okay.
The quote you gave pooh-poohing mantra meditation is from someone who does not know what it is about. They should stick to teaching effective practices they do know, if any, rather than attempting to discredit practices they do not know. It only does harm to the motivation of good practitioners. Everyone deserves better than that.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 9:37:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Goddessinside:
If you are feeling tired and achy during the day, it is suggested to get plenty of rest, and make sure to take plenty of rest before getting up after meditation too. You have been through a lot and it will take some time to unwind. Be kind to yourself.
The quote you gave pooh-poohing mantra meditation is from someone who does not know what it is about. They should stick to teaching effective practices they do know, if any, rather than attempting to discredit practices they do not know. It only does harm to the motivation of good practitioners. Everyone deserves better than that.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
Dear Yogani,
First, thank you for your reply.
I'm always open to any insight that could support my inner work.
I have deep respect for your love and generosity that helped many seekers on their spiritual path..me included.
By sharing this extract about mantra meditations, the intention was not to throw a stone in the fed and disturb "the motivation of good practitionners". I know you didn't mean it was my intention, but now, I feel responsible!
And I think that if those dedicated people are truely experiencing
a deep transformation inside, the few lines I sent should not disturb
the truth they are living, on the contrary, it should strenghten it even more. Otherwise, that would only reveal that
their truth is fragile...
On the contrary, the quote I sent should find positive responses, like Ananda's who is obviously experiencing blissful benefits from his practices.
Finally, I didn't want to reveal the name of the being who "pooh-poohed" mantra meditations, to not put a label on it.
But now I feel necessary to mention that this being was an enlightened one who was quite familiar with meditation techniques.
This being is Osho.
I often mention his name, not because I'm an Osho-fanatic person.
I only find in his insights and techniques a truth that echoes in my heart, each time I read him.
I'm open to every possibility, every being, every light that could
enrich my experience..
Thank you Yogani and everybody for your openeness and understanding.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 10:00:59 PM
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There is quite a bit of controversy over someone who is called "enlightened" and things they say. Enlightenment is not a permanent achievment where you become perfect, and always speak the truth.
The fact is, what is true for one person may not be true for everyone.
When you read someone's words and feel they are true in your heart, that is your inner guru, guiding you to a truth for you alone. It may or may not be true for someone else. That is why it is so important to learn to follow your inner guru. Daily practices including meditation help with that process.
You can actually learn a lot from completely unenlightened people.
You are correct that your words wouldn't disturb the peace of dedicated people experiencing a deep transformation inside. It's the newcomers and beginners that Osho's words could disturb. After all these are "AYP support forums", so often you will see topics pointed back in the direction of AYP core practices like deep mantra meditation because it works for the vast majority of people. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2009 : 11:05:27 PM
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Hi Goddessinside:
I was pretty sure it was Osho, and have known for a long time that he was weak on mantra meditation, and outright opposed to it. Important aspects of his teaching fell short because of this erroneous belief. The recent AYP lesson on Kechari Stimulation and the Ladder of Chakras is an example, which happens to be about Osho also, though he isn't named there.
It is no reflection on you. These things are good to air, so we can more fully understand where a teacher can help, and where they can do harm. Osho did not know about mantra meditation. It is clear in his writings. He made some wonderful contributions in his life, but not in that area.
The guru is in you.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 03:07:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Goddessinside:
I was pretty sure it was Osho, and have known for a long time that he was weak on mantra meditation, and outright opposed to it.
Hi again Yogani,hi Etherfish,
I will express myself in a simple and honest way..
I'm not an expert in any field, I nourrish myself with the simplest
food (for body and soul!), so I won't play the role of the Devil's advocate.
And yes, Etherfish, I totally agree with you when you say:"You can actually learn a lot from completely unenlightened people."
The smallest bug can teach me a lot about existence!
However, I feel I have to disagree with you Yogani..
When Osho talks about mantras, he's not "against" the use of mantras in itself. He simply tells us to watch out.
When he talks about sleep during mantra, he says, just like you in
one of the lessons (sorry I don't remember which one),that it's a different kind of sleep:
This is one of the most beautiful experiences possible to man -- when sound dissolves. Then suddenly you cannot find where the sound has gone.
You were hearing it subtly, deep down: "Aum, Aum, Aum..." and then it is no more there. You have entered the world of the one.
Sleep is good in itself, but beware. If you are using the mantra for sleep, then it is okay. But if you are using the mantra for spiritual awakening, then beware of sleep. For those who use a mantra, sleep is the enemy -- and it so easily happens. And it is so beautiful, because it is a different type of a sleep: remember that too. When it comes from a mantra, this is not ordinary sleep. This is a different kind of sleep.
(...)
So what can you do? You can do only one thing: while you are using your mantra, while you are intoning your mantra, do not simply intone it. At the same time be alert and listen to it also. Intone it and listen to it both. Otherwise, if you are not listening consciously, it will become your lullaby and you will fall into deep sleep. That sleep will be very good -- you will feel refreshed after it, alive; you will feel a certain well-being -- but this is not the point.
This is the link if you feel like reading the whole talk: http://www.oshoworld.com/tantra_med...p?news_id=39
So, personnally, I can understand that the point is TO BE ALERT..
Not to repeat the mantra in a robotic way, without alertness..
And finally, no teacher can harm anybody. A technique can be harmful to anybody, on the long term, if not appropriate for him.. but
it's up to each one to experiment a technique and see, by himself, IF and TO WHAT EXTENT it works for him..
The best mantra is "BE YOURSELF" and "LISTEN TO YOUR INNER GURU".
The Guru is in U... he definitely is!
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 03:09:25 AM
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| Perhaps others would find it to be a detail, but here's my go on it (and it's not for debate, just info from another perspective). About your boyfriend watching porno: There are a few who speak about this phenomena, what it stands for, what it is all about, and how it affects woman on a deeper spiritual level. If you want to know more about how the male sexual mind influences the female emotional body, please read some books of Barry Long. Particuarly "To Woman in Love" is very helpful and brings understanding to such mechanisms which are quite profound. I would say it may be one of the main reasons for your fatique right now and may very well be one of the reasons why the heavy cleansing is going on - it's not to be ignored. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 10:45:50 AM
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Hi Goddessinside:
What Osho describes about handling sleep in mantra meditation is not the procedure of AYP deep meditation. From the AYP point of view, it is divisions of the mind he is suggesting in deep meditation -- monitoring the experience ("beware of sleep") and trying to "be alert" while meditating, both which will water down the procedure and the effectiveness of deep meditation, not improve them.
Which is not to say Osho should not have taught meditation the way he wanted to. Of course he did. He taught many kinds of meditation -- a Jack of all trades, so to speak, which raises questions about the focus of his teachings. To be broadly eclectic has its advantages in exploration, but not necessarily in the application of methods, where the consistency of practice over the long term is key.
In this particular case, the Osho procedure you quoted for sleep is not the same as AYP deep meditation. It is important to recognize this both specifically in this case, and in general about all practices, or what we are doing here in AYP will turn into mush, with so many variations coming in from every direction.
Variations from a baseline system (no matter what their source) are going to be the practitioner's experiment, and ought to be recognized as such, or things can become very confused. It is particularly important with deep meditation, where the slightest variation in procedure will divide the mind and lead to a substantial reduction in the result. Then the effectiveness of deep meditation will come into question quite unfairly, which is why I have come back on this point.
Of course, you are free to practice as you wish, but I hope everyone will be clear on the essential aspects of experimenting with an established baseline teaching. It can all go out the window very quickly, and that is something to really "beware" of.
The matter of introducing modifications into a baseline system of practices has been covered over here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5103
Sometimes it pays, but more often it will not. Therefore, it is suggested that variations be the exception, rather than the rule.
So, allow your naps during meditation (they are obviously needed at this time), purify, open, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 12:22:12 PM
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How can anybody know for sure if a meditation tecnique is being effective on somebody else? I think nobody knows but he/she who experiments and experiences.
It is easy to go around academically arguing on the effects and modus operandi of different types of meditation. I think ultimately (at least until science can catch up to a substantial degree) the proof is in the pudding. I.e., try it and see. Read, etc. but then do. Osho could also say that mindfullness meditation is very good but how would he really know how another was practicing it? What is really mindfullness meditation? "Just observe your thoughts" can be a very vague set of rules. At the same time it can be all one needs. Hence each person has to find the method that they feel comforable with. That is the key. And tehn sticking to them
Osho was great and I also enjoy reading and hearing him very much. But again, it is important to seperate the wheat from the chaff (is this correct way of saying in english?? ), like in everything. I personally, for example, don't feel attracted to his dynamic meditations, although I understand at what he was aiming for. Different strokes for different folks, so they say.
I am full of adages today... |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 2:24:10 PM
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There's something i don't understand here. If mantra meditation causes the breathing to suspend due to the concentration involved, then isn't this purification and therefore not the breathless state? Also, concentration is the opposite of relaxation because to concentrate causes tension.
This whole thing is just a massive confusion. It seems to me that you don't need any tool like a mantra or breath at all. You just need to remain aware. Surely it is awareness behind thoughts, or the silent "witness" to consciousness that is the thing that matters and so if you remain aware while the body relaxes by being kept motionless you are accomplishing the same thing but in a better way than the tools can accomplish.
Hasn't Yogani said that pure bliss consciousness is the silent witness consciousness? That would be the thought free state of awareness?
Someone needs to explain to me how it is possible to be aware without knowing you are aware as a thought form.
You can't just "do" aware. Awareness is consciousness, which in my book means mental cognizance. How could you be aware without thoughts in your mind and somehow simultaneously know it? Doesn't having thoughts about things mean the state of knowledge?
People talk about the thinking mind as if they were seperate from it but i simply don't understand this. Can someone explain it?
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 2:47:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Perhaps others would find it to be a detail, but here's my go on it (and it's not for debate, just info from another perspective). About your boyfriend watching porno: There are a few who speak about this phenomena, what it stands for, what it is all about, and how it affects woman on a deeper spiritual level. If you want to know more about how the male sexual mind influences the female emotional body, please read some books of Barry Long. Particuarly "To Woman in Love" is very helpful and brings understanding to such mechanisms which are quite profound. I would say it may be one of the main reasons for your fatique right now and may very well be one of the reasons why the heavy cleansing is going on - it's not to be ignored.
Thank you very much emc...
I read few lines from the author and all I can say is that it matches exactly with all I've been through lately..
All my work now is very tricky: I've seen by myself the face of the man I loved, lying in a very professional way to my face.
It's unbelievable to discover a total stranger, so unconcievable to realize I have loved an ideal, not the REAL being, during 3 years...
I consciously know that my duty now is to take care of myself, and only myself, cause I gave to the point of forgetting totally myself..
I thought it was "surrendering"..and at that time, I gave just half my bank account, I gave everything I could give... unconditionnally..
I regret nothing. I learned a lot.
Now, just pray for me to gather enough courage and walk firmly on the ground, in total responsibility of my self.
Thank you again for your support.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 2:55:44 PM
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Hi Yogani.
Ok, now, I can understand clearly what you mean and the essence of AYP DM.
I'm not a woman of "knowledge"..
rather a woman of "knowing".
So, I will believe no guru, master, teacher, or anybody else but my own experience.
And I will be glad to share this with you in a while.
Osho...(oups!) I mean, the Guru is in me! ( ) |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 3:03:02 PM
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Hi YIL!!
Thank you for bringing some freshness and humour to this discussion!
I love your adages! keep on practicing and if during Adages Practice (AP not AYP) you suddenly have visions of Laurel & Hardy laughing, or Charlie chaplin jumping around, know that you have attained...The Ultimate Heaven of Humour! (I wish this Heaven could be an option for us!) |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 3:10:40 PM
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By the way Yogani, I was just reflecting on what you said..
When Osho says "watch the mantra" or "be alert", the mind is not involved here... so WHY would it be divided?
That has nothing to do with concentration or whatever..
?! |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 4:09:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
By the way Yogani, I was just reflecting on what you said..
When Osho says "watch the mantra" or "be alert", the mind is not involved here... so WHY would it be divided?
That has nothing to do with concentration or whatever..
?!
Hi Goddessinside:
"Watching the mantra" and "being alert" are mental activities, very different from favoring the mantra and coming back to it whenever we realize we have drifted off into something else -- anything else. So these mental things you mention to favor are dividing the mind from the procedure of meditation, which is much simpler and much more effective for luring the mind naturally to stillness.
Other mental divisions are things like being on guard for sleep or any other experience, viewing sleep or any experience in meditation as "the enemy," etc. These are all mental strategies and divisions that take away from the simple process of favoring the mantra whenever we are off into anything else, which is what leads to natural transcendence and the growth of abiding inner silence (the witness).
Favoring those other things prevents transcendence. When they come up during meditation, we just easily go back to the mantra. That is the procedure. So, if you realize you have dozed off, no problem, just ease back to the mantra. If you doze off again, ease back to the mantra again. If you go blank for the entire 20 minutes, no problem. If your meditation time is up, just lie down and rest for a while. That is the procedure. Take a nap if that is what needed. It will not always be like that, but for today it is. Your body/mind is telling you what it needs, and meditation will facilitate that process. In time, there will be release, more inner silence and clarity, and joy. We just go with the procedure of meditation. Anything else we deliberately are doing in meditation will divide the mind and retard the process.
The mantra is a vehicle that we can use to systematically cultivate inner silence in our life. If we are trying to do three or four other things at the same time in our sittings, that will not be meditation. This is why I took the hard line of saying that Osho does not know mantra meditation. I don't think he does, certainly not the kind we are doing in AYP, which works very well when the procedure is followed.
As for "concentration," which has been mentioned here a few times, AYP deep meditation is not about concentration. Favoring the mantra is only that, favoring an object with attention when we notice we are not. That's all. No riveting of attention on the mantra or anything else. That riveting is mind stuff that will retard the process of meditation. So, in the way we do meditation here, dharana (6th limb of yoga) does not mean riveting the attention. It means easily favoring the mantra when we realize we are not. Very gentle. Very simple. No pressure. No concentration. That's all.
Interestingly, while deep meditation does not require concentration, the practice produces the ability to concentrate for extended periods with a laser-like focus in our daily living, which is one of the many practical benefits that come with the rise of abiding inner silence. For more on concentration from the AYP point of view, see this lesson: http://www.aypsite.org/263.html
It is deceptively simple. Most of the difficulties that occur in deep meditation come from consciously favoring other mental activity, which is off the procedure. That's okay. When we realize we are off the procedure, we can just come back and favor the procedure, and the next step is back to the mantra. See how easy that is?
But if we have committed ourselves to do other things during deep meditation, then we will be lost with no meditation at all, and the results will be as inconsistent and limited as our practice has been. Once we have established the habit of correct procedure in deep meditation, such difficulties will no longer appear. And, likewise, difficulties in life will no longer be appearing as much either. That is how it goes.
So, sleep is not the enemy in AYP deep meditation! It is a normal symptom of purification and opening we may experience at times. Many symptoms will come and go in deep meditation over the months and years. They are all signs of progress. We just keep on with daily practice, and inner silence emerges as a full-time experience in our daily life.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 01:55:14 AM
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Thank you Yogani..
I was just expressing some doubts and wanted to make sure that AYP DM works on a deep level not just on the periphery.. cause I was starting to add it to my daily practices, which are already taking about 2 hours, so I wanted to make sure that those 20 minutes were not a waste of time, in a perspective of real and deep spiritual transformation, not just a mind-soothing thing.
Thank you very much for your time and care! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 07:46:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
By the way Yogani, I was just reflecting on what you said..
When Osho says "watch the mantra" or "be alert", the mind is not involved here... so WHY would it be divided?
That has nothing to do with concentration or whatever..
?!
Hi Goddessinside:
"Watching the mantra" and "being alert" are mental activities, very different from favoring the mantra and coming back to it whenever we realize we have drifted off into something else -- anything else. So these mental things you mention to favor are dividing the mind from the procedure of meditation, which is much simpler and much more effective for luring the mind naturally to stillness.
Other mental divisions are things like being on guard for sleep or any other experience, viewing sleep or any experience in meditation as "the enemy," etc. These are all mental strategies and divisions that take away from the simple process of favoring the mantra whenever we are off into anything else, which is what leads to natural transcendence and the growth of abiding inner silence (the witness).
Favoring those other things prevents transcendence. When they come up during meditation, we just easily go back to the mantra. That is the procedure. So, if you realize you have dozed off, no problem, just ease back to the mantra. If you doze off again, ease back to the mantra again. If you go blank for the entire 20 minutes, no problem. If your meditation time is up, just lie down and rest for a while. That is the procedure. Take a nap if that is what needed. It will not always be like that, but for today it is. Your body/mind is telling you what it needs, and meditation will facilitate that process. In time, there will be release, more inner silence and clarity, and joy. We just go with the procedure of meditation. Anything else we deliberately are doing in meditation will divide the mind and retard the process.
The mantra is a vehicle that we can use to systematically cultivate inner silence in our life. If we are trying to do three or four other things at the same time in our sittings, that will not be meditation. This is why I took the hard line of saying that Osho does not know mantra meditation. I don't think he does, certainly not the kind we are doing in AYP, which works very well when the procedure is followed.
As for "concentration," which has been mentioned here a few times, AYP deep meditation is not about concentration. Favoring the mantra is only that, favoring an object with attention when we notice we are not. That's all. No riveting of attention on the mantra or anything else. That riveting is mind stuff that will retard the process of meditation. So, in the way we do meditation here, dharana (6th limb of yoga) does not mean riveting the attention. It means easily favoring the mantra when we realize we are not. Very gentle. Very simple. No pressure. No concentration. That's all.
Interestingly, while deep meditation does not require concentration, the practice produces the ability to concentrate for extended periods with a laser-like focus in our daily living, which is one of the many practical benefits that come with the rise of abiding inner silence. For more on concentration from the AYP point of view, see this lesson: http://www.aypsite.org/263.html
It is deceptively simple. Most of the difficulties that occur in deep meditation come from consciously favoring other mental activity, which is off the procedure. That's okay. When we realize we are off the procedure, we can just come back and favor the procedure, and the next step is back to the mantra. See how easy that is?
But if we have committed ourselves to do other things during deep meditation, then we will be lost with no meditation at all, and the results will be as inconsistent and limited as our practice has been. Once we have established the habit of correct procedure in deep meditation, such difficulties will no longer appear. And, likewise, difficulties in life will no longer be appearing as much either. That is how it goes.
So, sleep is not the enemy in AYP deep meditation! It is a normal symptom of purification and opening we may experience at times. Many symptoms will come and go in deep meditation over the months and years. They are all signs of progress. We just keep on with daily practice, and inner silence emerges as a full-time experience in our daily life.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Mindful of what you are saying:
If I add extras into my meditation it always seems like they are viying for attention. I have added the eye lift and heel in the perenium and can find they create a distraction either from just being aware that I am doing them. or because they create the feeling of an energy surge (or I imagine a feeling like an energy surge, it's sometimes difficult to differentiate).
Is it better just to drop those distractions, which begs the question is there really any need for them ?
It's a bit confusing when you are aware of a sensation and letting it go to favour the mantra. How is it possible to ignore the experience of the additional add ons, or their effects ?
Just when you think your inner guru has it sorted I have something else to add to the list of things I need to ignore while concentrating on doing them. |
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