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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 10:58:23 AM
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At what point in the path is a karmamudra considered essential?
I have read that it is only a requirement for an advanced stage (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) but I don't understand how this could work, as I understand that breathing ceases and heart activity stops completely in Nirvikalpa. Is this correct?
Very confused.
regards
Kris |
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yogani
USA
5249 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 2:14:43 PM
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Hi Kris:
Karmamudra is old-fashioned ritualized sex (with young women) for monastic men. Its worth could be debated, not to mention it's obvious chauvinistic characteristics. If a taste of samadhi (nirvikalpa or other) were the only prerequisite for karmamudra, many around here would qualify, including many of the women. 
In any case, it is not really relevant for yoga practitioners who live in the world, who can integrate effective tantric methods into whatever lifestyle they happen to be living, with good results at any stage of human spiritual transformation. See the AYP tantra lessons and book for more on this.
If "karmamudra" were to be interpreted in a broader more reasonable way to mean "the application of tantric sexual principles and methods for the equal benefit of both genders," then we have it well covered here.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 3:52:10 PM
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Hi Yogani,
All I know is that the topic is quite hush hush in Tibetan circles, as it was also practiced within a monastic setting with the obvious contradiction regarding vows. I'm less interested in that aspect and more in the 'transformative' power for people of both genders.
I figure that coitus must, at some point, be the object within samhadi meditation but I'm not sure quite how this would work. As far as I understand what I have read the act can be instrumental in attaining deeper states, ie. causing the prana to enter the central channel through to the clear light mind.
One concern is whether a partner is necessary as I find that meditative stability within coitus is incompatible with 'ordinary' sex - hence my question. I doubt very much whether I will ever have the fortune to be able to practice this with an equally motivated female contemplative.
Regards
Kris |
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yogani
USA
5249 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 5:09:12 PM
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Hi Kris:
The the role of sexual energy in human spiritual transformation is not that complicated, and it is the same for everyone everywhere. The methods are pretty straight forward also, though culture and religion often cloud the issue with edicts and/or esoteric mumbo jumbo.
The essential principle in practice is "preservation and cultivation of sexual energy," which underlies every true tantric ritual and practice. It can be applied in any sexual lifestyle in modern times (with or without partner), and is also at the heart of the celibate path. Check the AYP writings.
There are many others here who can help with questions on this. All the best on your path!
The guru is in you.
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 8:21:16 PM
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Karmamudra or Kamamudra is a term from Tibetan Tantric Buddhism, that refers to tantric sexual yoga with a physical partner, and requiring the prerequisite of many years of training in stylized and intricate visualizations of the dieties and so on. And this is a very advanced practice in that tradition. Kundalini is already activated prior to starting that.
So for the average Westerner, that possibly may be of some interest as a cultural curiosity, but is not a realistic option to pursue outside of that tradition. Tibetan Buddhism is so laden with ritual and obscure terminology and initiation.
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 04:17:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The essential principle in practice is "preservation and cultivation of sexual energy," which underlies every true tantric ritual and practice. It can be applied in any sexual lifestyle in modern times (with or without partner), and is also at the heart of the celibate path. Check the AYP writings.
Hi Yogani,
The teachings of the "celibate path" and the "preservation and cultivation of sexual energy" are of interest to me. I have always enjoyed sexual activity and never felt any inclination to desist due to my meditative practice. I have also always considered any suppression to be unwholesome and being sexually active in a conventional sense has not prevented me attaining progress within meditation.
Lately, however, I have reached a level I equate with the formless abidings, insomuch as there is no reliance on any 'external' object (even the breath or silent mantra). There is no volition just a vast expansion into space and a peaceful non-discriminative awareness.
An effect has been to make me very sensitive to energy depletion via orgasm. I am literally wiped out for about a week afterwards and I don't feel good about it. The last few times I have not, myself, felt the need to come, rather I have done it in order that my partner should not feel that she has failed to please me.
I can't go on like this and that's why I'm looking into tantra as a possible aid.
Regards
Kris |
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yogani
USA
5249 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 10:56:41 AM
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Hi Kris:
It is important to distinguish between the application of tantric principles and lifestyle choices.
Celibacy is a lifestyle choice. So is every other kind of relationship we may be drawn to and choose regarding sexual urges and the energy involved.
All too often, celibacy is taught as technique. It is not technique. It is lifestyle. Likewise, conjugal sex is sometimes taught as tantra technique. It is not technique. It is lifestyle. If lifestyle is taught as technique, sooner or later it will lead to strain and difficulties, because everyone has different lifestyle tendencies and needs.
Whatever sexual lifestyle we may be drawn to can have tantric principles applied within it. Our lifestyle needs and choices may change over time, and the application of tantric principles can be adjusted accordingly as those lifestyle changes occur.
In your case, you are having great inner openings, so you are finding some changes occurring in your inner energy dynamics. Should you change your lifestyle to accommodate that? It is entirely up to you.
On the other hand, you could continue with your present lifestyle with some modifications in conduct to accommodate your inner openings and the need for more vitality to be flowing internally. You don't have to give up sex. You just have to make it more tantric -- leaning more toward preservation and cultivation of sexual energy. Learning the holdback and blocking techniques can help with this. That is where you can start, without upsetting the applecart by making big lifestyle changes, disrupting important relationships, family responsibilities, etc.
Learning and applying sound tantric methods can transform normal sexual relations into spiritual practice.
Your partner should be brought on board. It can bring the relationship to new levels of ecstasy and love. You can also find much better management of sexual energy in solo situations.
If you go through the AYP tantra lessons or the tantra book, then you will be fully equipped information-wise to work the situation from right where you are, without having to make radical lifestyle changes which probably would not stick anyway.
Rome was not built in a day. So take it one day at a time. Nothing to worry about. The tools are available, and things are going to get a whole lot better. Just study up, continue with practices, and give it some time. Good things are happening.
The guru is in you.
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2008 : 08:39:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
You don't have to give up sex. You just have to make it more tantric -- leaning more toward preservation and cultivation of sexual energy. Learning the holdback and blocking techniques can help with this. That is where you can start, without upsetting the applecart by making big lifestyle changes, disrupting important relationships, family responsibilities, etc.
Hi yogani,
This sounds like a good strategy, to integrate sex into the spiritual path rather than looking at it as a dry technique.
I have tried the blocking method before but I don't like the effect it has on me. I feel the presence of 'trapped' energy (that should have been released) loose within my body. It's no longer a proper part of the astral body but it can't leave this body either. I get ill, spotty and bloated. I do think if it "needs" to go, then go it should - hoarding it, for me at least, brings only discomfort.
I prefer not to 'come' at all so that the waves of bliss remain integral with the spirit and subside back within it. I find that ordinary orgasm is primarily an act of strong duality - sexual desire in its basic form is directed at an 'other'. When I'm less dualistic and abide in the event with no self-identification, then there is no intention or need to release or block.
I don't know if this makes sense?
quote:
If you go through the AYP tantra lessons or the tantra book, then you will be fully equipped information-wise to work the situation from right where you are, without having to make radical lifestyle changes which probably would not stick anyway.
Rome was not built in a day. So take it one day at a time. Nothing to worry about. The tools are available, and things are going to get a whole lot better. Just study up, continue with practices, and give it some time. Good things are happening.
Many thanks. I'll check it out and try not to worry about it, as you say. :-)
Namaste
Kris |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2009 : 10:03:39 PM
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| Yogani is incorrect here. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2009 : 5:22:07 PM
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Could you specify, please?
Thank you. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2009 : 11:30:05 PM
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| Karmamudra comes from Indian non-monastics, like Saraha and Tilika, but is much older than that. Traditionally outcaste women and prostitutes would be gurus in their own right, and the karmamudra practice would be an even exchange. Karmamudra does not resemble AYP tantra. It involves visualizations and prerequisite mastery of the channels and bindu, and involves difficult pranayama. Both yogi and yogini must be proficient in these. Not to say AYP tantra is not wonderful. It certainly is. Karmamudra's not just screwing around after reading the kamasutra nor is it just bliss. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Nov 10 2009 10:24:44 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2009 : 05:38:32 AM
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Hey Konchok,
Do you consider karma mudra be similar shamanic path of the flesh being one of the eight major shamanic path & much stronger than for example path of rythm or path of the plants ?
In other words, a method to enter in trance or modified consciousness via sacred sexuality except you can invoke extra-shakti power due to sexual horse ?
I know some sufi lineages once loosing their Sheikh in this plane of existence will make special sexual rites to re-connect with the lost guru & proceed their path.
P.S. Path of the flesh lore is almost not documented, most has been lost & in a way best otehrwise evrybody would make stupid things on a tantrik level or collective karma.
Albert |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2009 : 12:06:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Hey Konchok,
Do you consider karma mudra be similar shamanic path of the flesh being one of the eight major shamanic path & much stronger than for example path of rythm or path of the plants ?
In other words, a method to enter in trance or modified consciousness via sacred sexuality except you can invoke extra-shakti power due to sexual horse ?
I know some sufi lineages once loosing their Sheikh in this plane of existence will make special sexual rites to re-connect with the lost guru & proceed their path.
P.S. Path of the flesh lore is almost not documented, most has been lost & in a way best otehrwise evrybody would make stupid things on a tantrik level or collective karma.
Albert
Hi (now "Adamant"),
So I don't put karmamudra in the same category as shamanic practices. Karmamudra is part of Buddhist Tantra. It is a way directly to perceive bliss and emptiness.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2009 : 10:27:16 PM
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What makes you think shamanism does not provide a way to perceive bliss & emptiness ?
When you say karmamudra is part of buddhist tantra, does it apply to Nyingmapa school which contains shamanic practices as opposed to kagyupa, gelugpa & sakyapa who don't ? |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Dec 24 2009 01:50:33 AM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 1:13:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
What makes you think shamanism does not provide a way to perceive bliss & emptiness ?
When you say karmamudra is part of buddhist tantra, does it apply to Nyingmapa school which contains shamanic practices as opposed to kagyupa, gelugpa & sakyapa who don't ?
Perhaps shamanism does. Does shamanism have the wish for all beings to be happy and free of suffering, of interdependence and impermanence? If it does, then it has a way to perceive bliss and emptiness.
Karmamudra is very ancient. It predates introduction to Tibet by more than 1000 years (at least). It is India's version of "shamanistic," i.e., tantra yoga. Padmasambhava transmitted dharma to Tibet. All the nine yanas were given to them and this is how Nyingmapa was created. Bonpo folks specifically adopted Ati Yoga. Then, there was a mean king who tried to wipe out the dharma and it worked for a while. A few hundred years later there was the second transmission of dharma to Tibet and that's how the Kagyu and all the rest of the lineages formed. However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 5:57:17 PM
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FYI, Did you know that karmamudra is a practice used to prepare for transmigration after death? First by visualizing the sex partner as the deity, then by visualizing oneself as the deity, slowly engaging in sex to arouse the analog to bliss, one reminds oneself constantly "I am dead; I am in the intermediate state between lives." One may also at the moment of orgasm (or reverse ejaculation) experience the "clear light" which are identical to the moment of dreamless sleep or death. Then, when one dies, and one sees a couple copulating, one will remember to see them as the chosen meditation deity and to visualize oneself as the deity and thereby "block the womb," and prevent rebirth. Or even if you can't get it done then, the moment of rebirth when the sperm meets the ovem is described as a fantastic bliss, one remembers the bliss of karmamudra and is liberated into clear light. This is a "last ditch" effort to attain liberation if one didn't get the job done in life, at the moment of death, or in the days preceding the "bardo of becoming" (rebirth).
So you see, karmamudra is not just for sh*ts and giggles, and it is not a way to achieve enlightenment in this life. It is about preparing for the possibility of having to attain the path after death.
Remember, the clear light of normal unconditioned awareness is the path.
See Tibetan Book of the Dead and also see Natural Liberation, Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos.
Adamant |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 10:39:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences.
Can you clarify what you mean precisely with Dzogchen and BonPo ? |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 3:21:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences.
Can you clarify what you mean precisely with Dzogchen and BonPo ?
"Dzogchen" aka "Great Perfection" aka "Mahasandhi" originates in Udiyana with Prahevajra. Bonpo is the Tibetan shaman tradition.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 6:06:53 PM
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Hi Adamant,
I believe that some shamanistic practices have been incorporated into the Nyingma Buddhist tradition. When I was living in a Nyingma monestary in Nepal the monks were engaging in shamanistic practices such as magical protection rites (against evil spirits), exorsisms, and magical healing practices. I believe that the Nyingmapa also practice divination (both of future events and of distant and/or invisible objects).
To what degree these shamanistic practices have come from the pre-Buddhist Tibetan Bon tradition, or from other shamanistic traditions I do not know.
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 11:33:09 PM
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Adamant,
Well, BonPo is more complex & deeper than just shamanism. After years of persecution againt BonPo by tibetans, Dalai Lama a few years ago recognized than 18000 years old BonPo lineage hence non-buddhist reaches ultimate level of Dzogchen.
Christi,
Yes, Nyinmapa is the only worldwide known tibetan buddhist sect incorporating shamanism & quite present in Nepal. There is no direct link between BonPo & Nyingma but they reach same destination of Dzogchen which is the only thing worthwhile whatever root, system, method is used.
All,
For me karma mudra is shamanistic in nature where shamanism is any ritual using visible forms in this plane of existence hence lower triangle chakras portals to come closer to Godess aka Source of the Source aka No Name aka...
Om Benza Sato Hung Phey |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Dec 29 2009 12:05:11 AM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2009 : 2:25:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
I believe that some shamanistic practices have been incorporated into the Nyingma Buddhist tradition. When I was living in a Nyingma monestary in Nepal the monks were engaging in shamanistic practices such as magical protection rites (against evil spirits), exorsisms, and magical healing practices. I believe that the Nyingmapa also practice divination (both of future events and of distant and/or invisible objects).
To what degree these shamanistic practices have come from the pre-Buddhist Tibetan Bon tradition, or from other shamanistic traditions I do not know.
Christi
Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts. I practice dharma protectors, make offerings to earth spirits, divination and dream yoga, so I practice shamanism in the Kagyu lineage.
Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 29 2009 2:42:52 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2009 : 7:33:08 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts.
Absolutely. As I said, I don't know what the sourse of shamanism in Nyingma Buddhism is, Indian or Tibetan. I doubt that anyone does.
quote:
Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way.
I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology:
"A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices... Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation." p256
So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It's a fine line isn't it?
Christi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 12:07:51 AM
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What fascinates me is to realize that very deep & ancient BonPo shamanism traced back to 18000 years ago hence much before buddha (2500 years ago) & no link with India was able to reach Dzogchen directly. Most shamans get stuck on external practice, some realize tantric internal practice & really a few reach secret practice of dzogchen or advaita.
Maybe i'm wrong in thinking karmamudra is shamanistic but the real worldwide issue: shaman label has been corrupted or defined in so many ways. The best book I know of has been written by my friend Dmitry Ermakov http://www.boandbon.com. I just know that "path of the flesh" is the least documented in shamanic lore whatever culture !
One way without going into deep theorie of karma mudra & transmigration after death is to realize that for any sexual practice:
- our parents made love in this plane so a baby came from the cosmos and incarnated here
- the baby grows and is on the quest of where do I come from, who am I now, where do I go when I die
- one tantra among others (there are many tantra variants) is red tantra aka left hand tantra
- red tantra says many things, in particular one way to answer the above quest is to realize that going back to the sexual act again, we can see the all situation and realize the answer of the quest
- in other words, making love is one possible tunnel one can enter consciously to then travel on an expansion of energy / counsciousness leading to the real experience of death zone
Albert
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:00:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
What fascinates me is to realize that very deep & ancient BonPo shamanism traced back to 18000 years ago hence much before buddha (2500 years ago) & no link with India was able to reach Dzogchen directly. Most shamans get stuck on external practice, some realize tantric internal practice & really a few reach secret practice of dzogchen or advaita.
Maybe i'm wrong in thinking karmamudra is shamanistic but the real worldwide issue: shaman label has been corrupted or defined in so many ways. The best book I know of has been written by my friend Dmitry Ermakov http://www.boandbon.com. I just know that "path of the flesh" is the least documented in shamanic lore whatever culture !
One way without going into deep theorie of karma mudra & transmigration after death is to realize that for any sexual practice:
- our parents made love in this plane so a baby came from the cosmos and incarnated here
- the baby grows and is on the quest of where do I come from, who am I now, where do I go when I die
- one tantra among others (there are many tantra variants) is red tantra aka left hand tantra
- red tantra says many things, in particular one way to answer the above quest is to realize that going back to the sexual act again, we can see the all situation and realize the answer of the quest
- in other words, making love is one possible tunnel one can enter consciously to then travel on an expansion of energy / counsciousness leading to the real experience of death zone
Albert
Dzogchen doesn't predate the Buddha. It originates with Prahevajra at least 200 years after the Buddha's death. Bon adopted Dzogchen, as well as many other Buddhist traditions, like tantra. There are those that make the argument that Bon independently came up with their own Dzogchen. It's an interesting thought, but the evidence points to a Bon's wholesale adoption of tantras, guru yoga, dharma protectors and the rest.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:02:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts.
Absolutely. As I said, I don't know what the sourse of shamanism in Nyingma Buddhism is, Indian or Tibetan. I doubt that anyone does.
quote:
Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way.
I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology:
"A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices... Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation." p256
So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It's a fine line isn't it?
Christi
There are no lines.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:09:30 PM
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quote:
There are no lines.
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karmamudra in Tantra?
