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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 19 2011 : 08:54:56 AM
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Re-reading "A thousand names for Joy" by Byron Katie. I am somewhat struck seeing she is describing over and over again how she is amazed seeing her body moving, doing things, not knowing the next instant what is going to happen, where the body will move and what it will do.
Example:
quote:
The delighted onlooker that I am watches it go to the toilet, brush its teeth, walk down the stairs, brew its tea, sit down, as if it were a puppet with no puppeteer. What will it do next? It sinks into a corner of the couch, becomes the woman drinking the tea, and the woman becomes as still as the wall or the ceiling. And it notices the woman being breathed, in and out, a finger being moved ever so slightly, and I am the cup, the tea, the lips of the woman...
If there's anything I've been spamming this forum with - and obviously continuously do - there are these questions about this.
I could not describe my sensation of this type of experience any differently than she does. Yet, it doesn't seem to be "it" when it happens here. I can switch into this relaxed mode where the body is freed of all mind activity and just does what it does while I enjoy the ride.
Is it worth it? Is there any point from a spiritual developmental point of view to relax into that mode? Would it serve the cultivation of stillness in any way?
I've quit doing it for a long time, a lot due to fear since this body does some socially horrendous things sometimes during those periods, plus that I've self-paced a lot, and I took it as a sort of self-pacing also not to switch into it. Now, that I'm more grounded, though, I wonder if it is something to let happen more again or not?
I have never understood the practice of "just be aware". However, I can easily let go of the body control and watch it being moved by stillness. Is that a compatible way of finding that "relaxing as awareness"? |
Edited by - emc on Jun 19 2011 08:56:03 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2011 : 7:05:33 PM
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Hi emc :)
I think that Byron Katie is describing the Witness state. Knowing your history of kriyas and 'automatic movements', I think that the two are not the same. If I had to interpret, I would say that when you enter the witness state, your body manifests kriyas because of an active kundalini clearing blockages.
I admire you. You have the ability to become the Witness at will! I have only hit that state once, after a meditation, when I watched myself walk back to my desk from about four feet in back of my body, watched my body sit down and start typing, watched myself answer the phone, heard my talking through what sounded like an echo chamber... the state lasted about 1/2 hour.
I think the question you are asking is "Is it ok to abide in the Witness?". For that, I have no answer although intuitively I think it is highly advanced. I think an advanced guru may be able to answer your questions..
The thing that comes to mind is this: When you are in the Witness state, have you ever tried to turn around and look back at yourself, trying to feel or see who is doing the looking?
:)
TI |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2011 : 04:03:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I have never understood the practice of "just be aware". However, I can easily let go of the body control and watch it being moved by stillness. Is that a compatible way of finding that "relaxing as awareness"?
The body might do horrendous/stupid things depending upon the level of purification.
The point is not to keep witnessing the body movements in stillnes, but to go beyond witnessing.
You are neither the body, nor the witness.
Once you are beyond witness, the body has no option but to remain still and assist the implosion. This state will take the purification to its final levels.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2011 : 05:59:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I've quit doing it for a long time, a lot due to fear since this body does some socially horrendous things sometimes during those periods, plus that I've self-paced a lot, and I took it as a sort of self-pacing also not to switch into it. Now, that I'm more grounded, though, I wonder if it is something to let happen more again or not?
Hi EMC,
I don't know if I've ever told you how much your sharing over the years has impacted me. In any case, I want to say it now. It is like on an energy level I feel as if I am on a retreat with you and I like you a lot.
For me the automatic movements of the sort that you describe, the non-socially approved sort, have been done in private, or else, when I shared it with others, I got their consent first. The best was when it was only one person being with me during the movements and she was very interested and loving. The most questionable was when it was at a party where I knew some people and others were strangers. I kind of regret letting go even though I asked for the consent of the group, and they were ok with it. It feels like some of the participants might not have been altogether comfortable.
I have not let go in that way privately lately, or if I have a couple of times in the past year, it was only briefly. Looking back the automatic yoga asanas seems like a phase. There is a disconnect between the energy and the muscles now that was not there in the earlier phase. There is the ecstatic bliss without the inclination to go into automatic movement.
Peace,
Be |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2011 : 09:43:15 AM
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Thanks for your wonderful responses.
Hm. I think you all point to the core of the question. Is it the true witness state I'm in, or is it something else? Is it kriyas due to blockages in the system?
I truly don't know. In the beginning it was more the jerks, the spasm, the kundalini hitting blockages and I could feel it was what was happening... Now it doesn't seem to be so much "yoga movements": going to the toilet or fixing food, living ordinary life...?! It is not the spasmic movements either, they have decreased remarkably. It's exactly as Katie describes. Seeing the body drinking a cup of tea for example. Not chosing which way to go in a crossing. The legs know where to go - I don't. Stuff like that. Often accompanied with blissful sensations.
@bewell, thank you so much for your words! I truly feel they are going in deeply! Thank you! I can totally recognize what you describe. For me in such occasions, the movements would be more "healing" movements, beaming energy or transmitting energy with the hands, forming mudras etc. That can still happen here, but not so much anylonger and more under some seemingly "control". I have attempted to ask for the hands to be stiller and to do the transmission without them waving around and it seems to work too. Da force can work more "under cover". Haha!
I'm grateful for the suggestions to go beyond the witnessing, to ask who is witnessing! That might be an important inquiry and help to go deeper! Thank you so much for that! It is as if it's the identity shift that has not really happened, and so it's still the "mind identity" watching. So that is probably a great idea! Thank you so much! |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2011 : 04:48:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Now it doesn't seem to be so much "yoga movements": going to the toilet or fixing food, living ordinary life...?! It is not the spasmic movements either, they have decreased remarkably. It's exactly as Katie describes. Seeing the body drinking a cup of tea for example. Not chosing which way to go in a crossing. The legs know where to go - I don't. Stuff like that. Often accompanied with blissful sensations.
"When the opponent expand, I contract.
When he contracts, I expand.
And when there is an opportunity, I do not hit --
(Bruce Lee waves his fists)
It hits all by itself."
~Bruce Lee [Enter the Dragon]
Do you remain witness 24/7? Even when you are asleep?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2011 : 09:57:15 AM
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| Oh, no. Only during waking time. If it even can be called witnessing. I haven't ruled out the possibility that I'm possessed by an entity. (joking) |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2011 : 12:34:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Oh, no. Only during waking time. If it even can be called witnessing. I haven't ruled out the possibility that I'm possessed by an entity. (joking)
Or maybe its the entity that was possessed by you all this time. And now its trying to break free from your hold.
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lorf
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2011 : 01:06:42 AM
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EMC, I have followed your journey with the automatic movements and I know that the price you had to pay is high. I sincerely hope that the views I am sharing below may help you in some way to shed some additional light on the mechanism behind these movements:
It seems like the common view regarding automatic movements is "Kundalini hitting blockages". I would say that it is specific qualities of energy on their way to enter and to be integrated in or energy field. Before the integration has happened these energy structures manifest in different ways where one of these ways are automatic movements. If this is true, I say if because I am not sure, if this true the key would be to change focus from the movements and look at the energy form that each specific movement represents. Once the core is brought to awareness there might be a possibility to integrate it into the energy field and the movement will fade away. These energy forms could be abilities from the past which might or might not be ready to be integrated and this would explain why these movements are experienced as a part of the process for some advanced yogis. If we compare this to the ultra traditional view on asanas they are seen as a way rto integrate the energy qualities of this dimension into the body. This would be the opposite to automatic movements. By performing a movement supported by breath an energy quality is attracted. Once the energy of all asanas is integrated the yogi is ready to move awareness to the dreambody "double" and has not need to do asanas again in that life. Ever. In the case of automatic movements the energy is pressing on the energy body that will automatically perfom the corresponing movement. If the focus, when this happens, is on the movement itself instead of the core of the energy corresponding the movement, the movement will keep on coming back. If the core energy of the specific movement is identified, brought to awareness and integrated into the personal energy field, growth will happen and that specific movement will never come back.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2011 : 07:45:02 AM
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lorf, thanks a lot!
I wonder if you specifically are thinking of the "jerks" when you write this? And/or the automatic yoga asanas or mudras that sometimes takes place?
I have some trouble seeing how normal living, making a cup of tea or drive to work would fit into your description...? |
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lorf
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2011 : 12:09:16 PM
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Thanks EMC,
It is mainly the automatic yoga asanas and/or mudras I am thinking of. I would believe the "jerks" are usually more related to Kundalini. But some of these "jerks" could very well be related to energy configurations entering the personal energy field without being integrated. But my own experience is that the "jerks" usually are caused by a general raise in the energy level activating "blockages" and resistance.
Regarding your description of the body doing ordinary things and you watching it seems to be something else not connected to what I described. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2011 : 03:08:27 AM
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Could it possibly be that during these times, you are unconsciously projecting part of your consciousness outside of your body and hence "watching yourself"?
So the question "When you are in the Witness state, have you ever tried to turn around and look back at yourself, trying to feel or see who is doing the looking?" is very valid and can you identify your location when witnessing?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2011 : 05:37:25 AM
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Thanks lorf, that makes a lot of sense! Appreciate your concern. 
SeySorciere,
I am still "in" my body - I never leave the body like in a "out of body experience" or something - I've never had one of those. I am still looking out through the eyes. I'm just acutely aware of the fact that 'I am not the body and I have zero agenda of what the body will do'. I am a field in which the body moves.
Thanks a lot for your question! It brought up more important reflections here!
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2011 : 5:42:08 PM
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Sincerely, a huge thanks for the suggestion to do some self-inquiry WHILE being in that "let go of the body"-thingy...!!! It opens and deepens things here in new ways. It must have matured. This suggestion would not have been received any sooner than now, after some years of self-pacing and integration and grounding. So exciting to make new discoveries. Gratitude!
Another thing that has landed in me in a "oh, by the way"-way just lately is that as long as the energies are going more into ida and pingala in unbalanced ways instead of the central channel, then spasms will occur.
In this video, right in the end of it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyazLDtn8K0 he just slightly explains that you can visualize and direct the energies to the central channel. I thought that was a manipulation by mind that would not work since it's one of those "I am the doer" things, but I tried doing (!) that anyway, and it actually works in the moment - don't know about long term effects though! Going into the "pillar" (as I learned to call it in qi gong practices) stabilizes everything immediately. Although I do not direct the energy upwards - that happens by itself, I focus on the simultaneous downward movement, so the grounding is not lost. Taking heaven down to earth instead.
Oh well, I'll keep on discovering here. It's more fun nowadays anyway. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2011 : 10:51:46 PM
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Hi emc :)
I would sure like to hear about how "It opens and deepens things here in new ways."
Turning you attention around by 180 degrees and looking back at 'who is looking' is a powerful technique of Self Inquiry. It leads back to the source.
:)
TI |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 5:49:50 PM
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Regrettably, emc, the state you experience, is unlikely to be the same as that described by Byron Katie.
Namaste |
Edited by - BuddhiHermit on Jun 30 2011 7:06:37 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2011 : 3:08:34 PM
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Oh, BuddhiHermit, don't be sorry!
It's great to be exactly where I am no matter what it is defined as and by whom. I just couldn't describe it any differently than Byron. And the basic question was if it's beneficial to the journey in any way to be in that, whatever it is. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2012 : 6:43:09 PM
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This topic came to my memory. The shift happening now came from exactly this, the inquiry around this issue! I just didn't know how to look properly!
Tibetan_Ice and manigma were right on:
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
The thing that comes to mind is this: When you are in the Witness state, have you ever tried to turn around and look back at yourself, trying to feel or see who is doing the looking?
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
The point is not to keep witnessing the body movements in stillnes, but to go beyond witnessing.
You are neither the body, nor the witness.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I'm grateful for the suggestions to go beyond the witnessing, to ask who is witnessing! That might be an important inquiry and help to go deeper! Thank you so much for that! It is as if it's the identity shift that has not really happened, and so it's still the "mind identity" watching. So that is probably a great idea! Thank you so much!
I see how I, when going into just "following the body" create a mind entity that seems to be real that hangs like a bubble over the body following what the body does, having opinions and creating emotions around it. As long as there's identification with that invented entity with a life of its own, there's huge frustration and this feeling of being in a "middle land", since it can't control the body. I see how the belief in an entity called "I" is a must for it to exist. Otherwise it would just be thoughts coming into awareness. Also just happening, just as the body just moves.
Stepping back from the body had become an easy habit during the years. Taking yet another step back revealed a similar sense of "Also this is included". Also the sense of "mind-entity" was included as just happening. And the aaaaaaaaaahhhh came immediately.
I don't care anylonger how stable or unstable this seeing is. There's just such a relief of no longer having any frustration or sense of being in a "middle-land". |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 5:02:41 PM
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| "The "key" is to see that everything is on autopilot. Do you make your heart beat? Your lungs breath? Your cells re-generate? Your hair grow? Of course not. Then, why would you think you create your thoughts?" /Michael Jeffreys |
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Byron Katie and "automatic movements"
