|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 1:40:22 PM
|
I have been re-reading some old texts that confused me a couple of years ago. And like Kirtanman, I am a fan of Kashmir Shaivism.
Stanza 49 in "The Stanzas of Vibration" states that "The soul is bound by the city of eight" or the eight Chakras. I know this is "under the covers", but I had always thought that most "spiritual paths" had seven major chakras that held karma & stuff.
Anyone have any insight on this topic? How many majors in other paths you have seen?
Thanks, Jeff |
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 2:54:14 PM
|
There are so so many different ways of illustrating the chakras. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are the usuals. Then, so so many different ways of visualizing them, in shapes, as lotuses, as shapes on lotuses, with deities, without deities, with mantras without mantras.
The gist of what I'm saying is that there is nothing really essential in these different schemes. These are basically a way of connecting to a tradition, a teaching and a teacher. They inspire you and what not.
The real purpose is to balance or manipulate the prana energy. These purposes also have so so many different varieties. To create bliss here, there, to dissolve bliss, etc., etc., etc. And in various degrees of intensity.
AYP has a nice way of handling this by not going there. In fact, whichever chakras you are talking about are all connected like branches to the trunk of the shushumna nadi. All these practices have the common denominator of getting the prana to enter the shushumna.
AYP also deals with the next common denominator that once the prana enters the shushumna there is bliss, and methods to intensify it, and also the nice practice that segues into silence of DM.
AYP provides an excellent foundation to yoga of all kinds. |
 |
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 4:49:12 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
I have been re-reading some old texts that confused me a couple of years ago. And like Kirtanman, I am a fan of Kashmir Shaivism.
Stanza 49 in "The Stanzas of Vibration" states that "The soul is bound by the city of eight" or the eight Chakras. I know this is "under the covers", but I had always thought that most "spiritual paths" had seven major chakras that held karma & stuff.
Anyone have any insight on this topic? How many majors in other paths you have seen?
Thanks, Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I just have a moment now, and will comment more, later.
Kashmir Shaivism actually posits a system of five major chakras, and doesn't focus on chakras as much as many other yogic systems.
Puryastaka, the "City of Eight", doesn't refer to chakras, but to the five senses, along with mind, ego and intellect.
 |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 03 2011 7:22:05 PM |
|
|
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 6:02:42 PM
|
Kirtanman,
Look forward to the post, but wasn't the original (not modern interpretations) text and Spanda principle based on the "wheel" with the hindu primary seven chakras? And then broke everything down to the core sound (vibration/energy) components. |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 7:12:27 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Kirtanman,
Look forward to the post, but wasn't the original (not modern interpretations) text and Spanda principle based on the "wheel" with the hindu primary seven chakras? And then broke everything down to the core sound (vibration/energy) components.
Hi Jeff,
Not to the best of my knowledge.
Quoting Ksemaraja's commentary on Spandakarika (Doctrine of Vibration) sutra (stanza) forty-nine, leading academic expert on Kashmir Shaivism and practicing Kashmir Shaivite Yogi Mark S.G. Dyczkowski writes in his book Doctrine of Vibration :
"The power of awareness (citisakti) is disturbed from its self-absorption and begins to generate thought-forms (vikalpa) within itself. Consciousness devolves and becomes the thinking mind. Sankara assumes the form of a human personality (mayapramatr) residing in a world of limitations and diversity. His consciousness is extroverted, and generates out of itself a subtle body (puryastaka) consisting of the three components of the inner organ of mentation (antahkarana) and the five subtle senses (tanmatra) of taste, touch, smell, sound and sight. Residing in this subtle body, consciousness transmigrates from one physical organism to the next."
~Doctrine Of Vibration, p. 108
There may be some equation to the chakras in other yogic traditions, because the chakras do "map" to the physical/subtle senses, but Kashmir Shaivism doesn't focus on chakras, much, but rather, on its own map/system of thirty-six tattvas, which tracks the cycle of the movement of consciousness, starting as pure awareness, moving out to the appearance and perception of distinct forms, and back again to rest as pure awareness.
Kashmir Shaivism does reference the "wheel of energies" (sakticakra) - most notably in Shiva Sutras 1.6 - Saktichakrasamdhane Vishvasamharah - when the wheel of energies unites, the universe dissolves - when the artificial distinctions of subjectivity and objectivity relax, identification dissolves and liberation/oneness is realized.
Teachings using the metaphor of Puryastaka (City Of Eight), and the resulting (seeming) bondage of consciousness that results from identification with the fluctuations of thought-forms (i.e. mind, ego, intellect) and resulting over-focus on perception and conditioned evaluations, are well-known in Kashmir Shaivism, and so, I'm fairly confident that this is the context and intent of stanza forty-nine.
Stanzas forty-nine and fifty, translated directly from the Sanskrit, read:
"The soul is bound by the City Of Eight (Puryastaka) that resides in the mind, intellect and ego and consists of the arising of the (five) subtle elements (of sensory perception). He helplessly suffers worldly experience (Bhoga) which consists of the arising of mental representation born of that (City Of Eight), and so its existence subjects him to transmigration. Thus we will explain how to end this transmigratory existence."
~The Stanzas On Vibration, by Mark S.G. Dyczkowski, p.132
I hope this information is useful.
Wholeness Is.
Kirtanman
PS - Here is some further information and resources on Kashmir Shaivism, including a list of recommended books, for anyone who may be interested.
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 03 2011 7:21:19 PM |
|
|
|
stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 10:33:51 PM
|
Here's one more book to add to Kirtanman's great list.
This book is a great introduction to Kashmir Shaivism. It really helped me understand The Doctrine of Vibrations on a much deeper level. Mark S.G. Dyczkowski is good friends with Swami Shankarananda and teaches an online Sanskrit course to the members of the Shiva Ashram in Melbourne. I think they are also collaborating on a few books right now including an English translation of the Tantraloka.
Title: Consciousness is Everything
Author: Swami Shankarananda
Description: Consciousness is the most intimate experience of life, the essence of life itself. Among the many spiritual traditions born and developed in India, one ancient philosophy—Kashmir Shaivism—has explored it completely.
Until now, Kashmir Shaivism was an esoteric field accessible only to a few scholars and other specialists. Here, for the first time, Swami Shankarananda, a Self-realised spiritual master, presents the wisdom of this powerful tradition in a form that will delight and inspire all spiritual seekers.
|
|
|
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 11:34:37 PM
|
Interesting. So your interpretation is that the city of eight consists of the 3 components plus the 5 senses. I read it as the text states the city of eight "resides in the mind, intellect and ego".
Also, as you state the thirty-six tattvas form the base sounds/vibrations that give rise to everything. For example, the gutturals give rise to the five elements: earth, water, wind, fire and air. But isn't the full 36 sometimes combined called the "matrika chakra". Sort of the universal mother chakra. Doesn't the theory sort of imply an universal higher (for simplicity - 8th chakra)? |
|
|
|
maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 04:31:47 AM
|
Puryastaka, the "City of Eight", doesn't refer to chakras, but to the five senses, along with mind, ego and intellect.
.
Kirtanman ...is not Puryastaka similar to Anthakarana?
|
Edited by - maheswari on Jun 04 2011 04:58:23 AM |
|
|
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 10:36:10 AM
|
Swami Venkatesananda writes...
"The reflection of consciousness within itself is known as puryastaka. Mind alone is puryastaka, though others have described it more elaborately (as composed of the five elements, the inner instrument or antahkarna, the organs of action, the senses, ignorance, desire and karma). It is also known as the subtle body (linga sarira)."
My point is not that the eight cities are not composed (or derived from) the components, but that they are the same (or directly integrated) to the subtle body (or chakras).
I think that Dyczkowski is a great translator and historian, but he may not truly understand the words. Similar to what has happened to most religious texts (like the gospels )
Kirtanman - I am more interested in what you "feel" or know in silence... Do you feel a direct connection (or the same) between the eight components and the subtle body? |
Edited by - jeff on Jun 04 2011 10:47:59 AM |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 4:19:23 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Here's one more book to add to Kirtanman's great list.
This book is a great introduction to Kashmir Shaivism. It really helped me understand The Doctrine of Vibrations on a much deeper level. Mark S.G. Dyczkowski is good friends with Swami Shankarananda and teaches an online Sanskrit course to the members of the Shiva Ashram in Melbourne. I think they are also collaborating on a few books right now including an English translation of the Tantraloka.
Title: Consciousness is Everything
Author: Swami Shankarananda
Description: Consciousness is the most intimate experience of life, the essence of life itself. Among the many spiritual traditions born and developed in India, one ancient philosophy—Kashmir Shaivism—has explored it completely.
Until now, Kashmir Shaivism was an esoteric field accessible only to a few scholars and other specialists. Here, for the first time, Swami Shankarananda, a Self-realised spiritual master, presents the wisdom of this powerful tradition in a form that will delight and inspire all spiritual seekers.
Thanks, Steve!
I had forgotten about this book; I just ordered it -- and I added it to the Living Unbound Kashmir Shaivism resource article's book list, linked above. |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 4:54:47 PM
|
Hi Jeff,
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Interesting. So your interpretation is that the city of eight consists of the 3 components plus the 5 senses. I read it as the text states the city of eight "resides in the mind, intellect and ego".
Actually, I don't know that those are two different interpretations. The tattvas are basically a map of "what arises from what", from the perspective of the subject (whether limited or real).
Intellect gives rise to ego, which gives rise to mind (defined slightly differently here than in some other systems - and referring to surface-level thinking-mind, in Kashmir Shaivism). And so, the incorrect idea called ego (ahamakara - "I-maker" in Sanskrit) gives rise to active thought-forms (vikalpa, in Sanskrit) which gives rise to the subtle, and subsequently, the physical senses -- and what they perceive - the physical elements.
As I've written in the past: "Mind is a sense, and not a self."
quote:
Also, as you state the thirty-six tattvas form the base sounds/vibrations that give rise to everything. For example, the gutturals give rise to the five elements: earth, water, wind, fire and air. But isn't the full 36 sometimes combined called the "matrika chakra". Sort of the universal mother chakra. Doesn't the theory sort of imply an universal higher (for simplicity - 8th chakra)?
I'm not sure I'm completely clear regarding what you mean by "eighth chakra" (chakra just means "wheel" in Sanskrit) - though in the sense you describe it above, I can see how Matrika could be the "Universal Chakra" - and it seems like valid and even fitting symbolism -- I just don't recall seeing it taught that way in Kashmir Shaivism, before.
In my experience, good spiritual symbolism is like a good map: the thing that makes it good, is if it helps get you where you're going, and/or can help others to do the same.
Matrika chakra, or simply "Matrika", in Kashmir Shaivism, refers to the Sanskrit alphabet, with each consonant being associated with a tattva, and the wholeness that is inherent unbound awareness (Shiva) being symbolized by Sanskrit's sixteen vowels/semi-vowels.
It's actually very elegant symbolism --- what it the source-code for bondage / unenlightenment, if not language and the confusion of its distinctions and designations with reality? Like all good tantric systems, Trika Shaivism takes something, in this case, the very source, of bondage, and re-codes it into a vehicle for liberation, rather than letting is remain as something that obscures the reality of liberation.
There is also a corollary set of alphabetical symbolism called Malini - which symbolizes aspects of unmanifest consciousness, as Matrika symbolizes manifest/active consciousness.
I'm not sure if that helps or clears anything up -- I'm more than happy to keep discussing it, in any case.
PS- The specific symbolism of Matrika and Malini are covered in the Para-Trisika-Vivarana, with exposition by Abhinavagupta, for anyone who is interested.
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 04 2011 4:55:58 PM |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 5:08:34 PM
|
Hi Jeff,
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Swami Venkatesananda writes...
"The reflection of consciousness within itself is known as puryastaka. Mind alone is puryastaka, though others have described it more elaborately (as composed of the five elements, the inner instrument or antahkarna, the organs of action, the senses, ignorance, desire and karma). It is also known as the subtle body (linga sarira)."
My point is not that the eight cities are not composed (or derived from) the components, but that they are the same (or directly integrated) to the subtle body (or chakras).
I think that Dyczkowski is a great translator and historian, but he may not truly understand the words. Similar to what has happened to most religious texts (like the gospels )
I don't think he misunderstands, or that any of us (you, me, Dyczkowski) are necessarily saying anything differently from one another.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the subtle senses do map to the mainstream yogic chakras that most of us are familiar with -- I just mentioned that Kashmir Shaivism works with the tattva model a lot more than the chakra model; that's all.
Basically, Puryastaka is just a metaphor for the limited sense of self -- when we incorrectly identify with mind, ego and senses (and their erroneous stew of conditioned memory, related conditioning, limited thought-forms, constricted emotions, and so on) .... "hence all the trouble".
That's not to say, though, that related energies aren't actually experienced, of course - it's just a matter of who the experiencer is perceived to be, or not, which in turn determines the liberation, or lack thereof, in the experience.
While opening to liberation, just as practices are key for almost all of us, some understanding of energy centers, subtle senses, etc. can be useful -- but they are all among what AYP calls "scenery", and they don't warrant a lot of focus or attention for most of us.
Kashmir Shaivism is more interested in how the various facets of consciousness relate to one another, and so, it addresses all this more from the level of "map" and inter-relationship, than some other systems do.
Ultimately, in these different systems, we're talking about the same facets of consciousness, with teachings about them positioned from different angles, and tailored to practitioners at different levels of readiness and clarity.
"We" are subject to birth and death (or transmigration, as the Spandakarika has it), bondage, mistaken sense of partiality, attachment, aversion, inconsistent/relative evaluations concerning good and evil ("if it benefits "me", it's good; if it hurts "me", it's evil") -- and the dream can be a bad dream or a good dream ... but this mis-identification guarantees it is a dream, and not in sync with reality or our inherent liberation.
quote:
Kirtanman - I am more interested in what you "feel" or know in silence... Do you feel a direct connection (or the same) between the eight components and the subtle body?
Well, per above, it's a useful metaphor.
When we open beyond the artificial (and mistaken) identification with ego, the subtle and physical senses are still operative, they're just experienced as they actually are --- without the utterly unnecessary reference to the personal that keeps suffering in place.
It's not that there's a sense of being "beyond the personal", nor is there a sense of being "constricted in the personal" ... it's just not like that, any longer; it just doesn't come up (I don't remember the last time I thought about chakras, or the subtle body, prior to this conversation, for instance).
Please let me know if that helps clarify (or not).
And interesting questions/conversation -- thanks!
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 04 2011 5:18:22 PM |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2011 : 5:20:20 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Puryastaka, the "City of Eight", doesn't refer to chakras, but to the five senses, along with mind, ego and intellect.
.
Kirtanman ...is not Puryastaka similar to Anthakarana?
Hi Maheshwari,
Antahkarana refers to mind, intellect and ego together; Puryastaka refers to Antakarana, plus the five subtle senses (in Kashmir Shaivism, anyway; sometimes, different systems define certain terms a bit differently from one another).
|
|
|
|
maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2011 : 05:05:55 AM
|
what i know is that :
anthakarana= 5 senses +manas (mind)+budhi (intellect)+ahamkara(ego)
.
the last 3 form Chitta (subconscious) |
|
|
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2011 : 10:55:28 AM
|
Maheswari, Kirtanman and everyone else(who enjoys obscure points),
I agree that we are basically all saying the same thing. My original point is that it "feels" to me, that the interaction is more than just a metaphor. That Anthakarana and the thirty-six tattvas are the building blocks or descriptive tools in KS for existence.
The first stanza states...
"We praise that Sankara who is the source of the power of the wheel of energies by whose contraction (nimsea) the universe is absorbed and comes into being."
I read that as defining the "wheel" as basically the accepted premise (with all that it implies). Like you, Kirtanman, I find the stanzas a helpful framework. It starts at a high level and then drills down into the details.
It is probably just me, but I find that I now enjoy reading inspired old texts and koans. For me, they hold interesting signposts that help me better understand the path.
Peace & Love,
Jeff |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2011 : 2:10:58 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
what i know is that :
anthakarana= 5 senses +manas (mind)+budhi (intellect)+ahamkara(ego)
.
the last 3 form Chitta (subconscious)
Hi Maheshwari,
In my experience, the important factor is to know what any given author / teacher means, when they use a given term. If you know of teachers / teachings / texts which use the definition you gave -- by all means, go with that, of course (it's the only way a given teaching can be understood clearly). In Kashmir Shaivism, these are referred to as technical terms within the system (any system).
I don't know if Antahkarana is considered a technical term in Trika Shaivism, but the definition I gave is the one used in the Spandakarika (The Stanzas on Vibration that we're discussing here).
|
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2011 : 2:39:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Maheswari, Kirtanman and everyone else(who enjoys obscure points),
I agree that we are basically all saying the same thing. My original point is that it "feels" to me, that the interaction is more than just a metaphor. That Anthakarana and the thirty-six tattvas are the building blocks or descriptive tools in KS for existence.
The first stanza states...
"We praise that Sankara who is the source of the power of the wheel of energies by whose contraction (nimsea) the universe is absorbed and comes into being."
I read that as defining the "wheel" as basically the accepted premise (with all that it implies). Like you, Kirtanman, I find the stanzas a helpful framework. It starts at a high level and then drills down into the details.
It is probably just me, but I find that I now enjoy reading inspired old texts and koans. For me, they hold interesting signposts that help me better understand the path.
Peace & Love,
Jeff
Hi Jeff, Maheshwari & All,
I agree with all you've written here. Metaphors can, and do, help us understand the actual operations of consciousness. After developing a certain degree of inner silence, the teachings of Kashmir Shaivism were very helpful in clarifying what I was experiencing, and helping me to see exactly how the full range of consciousness operates, and how the various aspects relate to each other. And so, I didn't use the term metaphor in any kind of a dismissive sense -- just a descriptive one.
I think I was a bit confused, too, as to what you were saying and asking, per our first few posts in this thread.
For instance, you mentioned an eighth chakra, with Matrika (the wheel of energies, of consciousness emanating from unbound awareness, out to physical perception/manifestion and back again) potentially being considered as a Universal form of such.
However, we were also discussing Purystaka, the City of Eight, which may map to physical/subtle senses, and thereby to the yogic chakra system - but in a specifically limited way.
Identification with the "City of Eight" is specifically what binds us -- as/though Matrika also binds us, when we wrongly identify with limitation. In fact, it is confusing the designations of language with actual separation that causes us to manifest bondage in the first place.
As inner silence increases, so does consciousness of the full range and operation of consciousness, which causes this limitation to either not manifest, or to be seen for what it is: a matter of focus; nothing more.
When we relax enough to let our true nature, living unbound, live us -- this is liberation, now -- and all the seeming limitation is seen to be momentary focus of consciousness; the focus (minus the sense of limitation) is natural, but it's not who we are - it's something we're doing (the "we" being unbound awareness).
For me, understanding this was very helpful in understanding the tattvas - the 36th tattva, Shiva - unbound awareness - is the ground of being where the cycle begins and ends. All the other tattvas are movement within it, and each succeeding tattva happens within the one preceding it.
From Shiva tattva, consciousness moves as Shakti, the increasing focus and solidity that happens within Shakti, all the way out/down to the physical manifestation of Earth tattva - and back again - every moment.
Prior to liberation, we're just not consciously experiencing this, but no one has less of any of these things - they're all always full present - they're what we are, and what "what we are" is ever doing.
I'll leave it at that for now. Good conversation; I hope everyone else is enjoying it, too; it's been awhile since I've discussed this stuff in detail.
Jeff (and anyone else who is interested) - please take a look at the Living Unbound website, as you like. It's designed to be a "plain English" iteration of some of the key principles of Kashmir Shaivism, including the three levels of consciousness outlined in Kashmir Shaivism (and in all esoteric spiritual systems).
The techniques and principles outlined there are intended to be fully complementary with AYP, and several of the lessons and articles cross-refer back to AYP. And so, per your interest in Kashmir Shaivism, you might find it interesting.
Wholeness Is,
Kirtanman
PS To All: Is any of this type of information needed for liberation? For almost all of us: No (in case anyone feels like they "need" to study Kashmir Shaivism). It's one thing if we feel an authentic draw to certain teachings, but as always, it's what we do -- daily practices -- that are the key to it all. The Shiva Sutras make the point in the very second sutra - Jnanam Bandhah - Knowledge is Bondage ... a teaching very similar to AYP's teaching about avoiding scenery. Liberation has infinitely more to do with unknowing than knowing. If a given map or system helps us "un-know" - great; if we get too caught up in any set of teachings, though, that's far more likely to be binding than liberating.
As Yogani says: "Practice wisely and enjoy."
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 06 2011 2:45:08 PM |
|
|
|
maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2011 : 02:02:24 AM
|
thx for yr reply kirtanman
i went back to the information i have ...and i discovered that
OOOPS
anthakarana=manas+buddhi+ahamkara+chitta
manas links the outside world to the inside self through using the 5 senses
different schools have different opinions...some say that chitta is the fourth part of anthakarana...other schools consider chitta NOT as an additinonal separatate entity but the sum of the first three....
anyway as u said ...do we really need to know all that information for liberation? not really.. |
|
|
|
manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2011 : 06:04:25 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
For me, understanding this was very helpful in understanding the tattvas - the 36th tattva, Shiva - unbound awareness - is the ground of being where the cycle begins and ends. All the other tattvas are movement within it, and each succeeding tattva happens within the one preceding it.
From Shiva tattva, consciousness moves as Shakti, the increasing focus and solidity that happens within Shakti, all the way out/down to the physical manifestation of Earth tattva - and back again - every moment.
Kirtanman - the great professor of Reverse Engineering of Humans!
The One Self never moves,
Yet is too swift for the mind.
The senses cannot reach it,
Yet it is ever beyond their grasp.
Remaining still, it outstrips all activity,
Yet in it rests the breath of all that moves.
It moves, yet moves not.
It is far, yet it is near.
It is within all this,
And yet without all this.
He who sees everything as nothing but the Self,
And the Self in everything he sees,
Such a seer withdraws from nothing.
For the enlightened, all that exists
Is nothing but the Self,
So how could any suffering or delusion continue for those who know this oneness?
He who pervades all, is radiant,
Unbounded and untainted,
Invulnerable and pure.
He is the knower, the One mind,
Omnipresent and self-sufficient.
He has harmonized diversity
Throughout eternal time.
AUM
That is the whole.
This is the whole.
From wholeness emerges wholeness.
Wholeness coming from wholeness,
Wholeness still remains.
I Am That [Chapter No. 5 - Bound in Deep Togetherness]
http://www.balbro.com/iam/that5.htm
And That is the source of all tattvas... even the 36th tattva. Beyond Shiva!
 |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2011 : 2:23:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
[quote]
And That is the source of all tattvas... even the 36th tattva. Beyond Shiva!
Yes, indeed -- and thanks for the kind words, Manigma.
In Kashmir Shaivism, the wholeness that is beyond all distinctions and categories is known as Parashivashakti (beyond Shivashakti), or simply Anuttara (beyond).
Obviously, there's nothing beyond wholeness -- and wholeness includes everything.
Many people think of unbound awareness as pure, transcendent awareness free of its content, which is sometimes how that term is used.
Ultimately, though, unbound awareness is inherently ever-free including its content - Awareness is Wholeness.
|
|
|
|
kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2011 : 2:43:29 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
[quote]
And That is the source of all tattvas... even the 36th tattva. Beyond Shiva!
Yes, indeed -- and thanks for the kind words, Manigma.
In Kashmir Shaivism, the wholeness that is beyond all distinctions and categories is known as Parashivashakti (beyond Shivashakti), or simply Anuttara (beyond).
Obviously, there's nothing beyond wholeness -- and wholeness includes everything.
Many people think of unbound awareness as pure, transcendent awareness free of its content, which is sometimes how that term is used.
Ultimately, though, unbound awareness is inherently ever-free including its content - Awareness is Wholeness.
Well said!
The Contents are just as much a part of the Wholeness, as the Awareness that is both eternally free of the Contents, and from a limited perspective-entangled with those Contents. I love to hear others affirm, that duality is not something to be cursed or transcended per se. The 'stage' contains seemingly solid components and seemingly not-solid components, and that is fine!
Unlearning the grasping of those sensory objects does take time however; there is no helping it.
Love,
Kev |
|
|
|
manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2011 : 02:50:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
In Kashmir Shaivism, the wholeness that is beyond all distinctions and categories is known as Parashivashakti (beyond Shivashakti), or simply Anuttara (beyond).
Beyond what?
Free
As a bird
It's the next best thing to be
Free as a bird
Home, home and dry,
like a homing bird I'll fly
as a bird on wings.
Whatever happened to
the lives that we once knew?
Can we really live without each other?
Where did we lose the touch
that seemed to mean so much?
It always made me feel so...
Free as a bird.
It's the next best thing to be.
~ Beatles
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...eatles&meta=
|
|
|
|
jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2011 : 3:13:26 PM
|
Kirtanman,
Took you advice and bought Para-Trisika-Vivarana. It just arrived. Should keep me busy with some "light" reading over the weekend.
Peace & Love. |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2011 : 4:27:41 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Kirtanman,
Took you advice and bought Para-Trisika-Vivarana. It just arrived. Should keep me busy with some "light" reading over the weekend.
Peace & Love.
Hi Jeff,
Cool - just saw this post. Any first impressions?
|
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2011 : 4:34:19 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Until now, Kashmir Shaivism was an esoteric field accessible only to a few scholars and other specialists. Here, for the first time, Swami Shankarananda, a Self-realised spiritual master, presents the wisdom of this powerful tradition in a form that will delight and inspire all spiritual seekers.
Hi Steve,
I'm reading Consciousness Is Everything currently -- and highly recommend it.
On the forum, via email, and at our retreats, people ask me about Kashmir Shaivism, and about good places to get started, to learn more about it.
Until now, I've recommended Swami Lakshmanjoo's writings as the simplest and clearest (compared to Dyczkowski and others, they are).
However, I now officially have a new recommendation:
For someone who is new to Kashmir Shaivism, and who wants to understand the basics, in the form of a thorough yet easy-to-understand overview ... Consciousness Is Everything by Swami Shankarananda is the best place to start, I have yet seen.
Why?
Because the others (authors and books) delve into various sutras, texts and expositions directly -- and most of them (per the discussion in this thread), are not necessarily clear, especially for those of us who may not have had the experiences in deeper consciousness (i.e. inner silence) which can serve as reference points.
Beyond that -- it's simply a really good, helpful and clear spiritual book, written in an engaging, down-to-earth style.
Thanks very much for the recommendation, Steve!
http://www.shivayoga.org/html/consciousness.html
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 18 2011 4:36:48 PM |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2011 : 4:50:12 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Kirtanman - I am more interested in what you "feel" or know in silence... Do you feel a direct connection (or the same) between the eight components and the subtle body?
Hi Jeff,
In reviewing this thread, I realized a helpful pointer to mention might be:
Puryastaka, the City of Eight, is specifically the false identification with which bondage and suffering are made.
The 36 Tattvas represent the narrowing of focus from resting in unbound awareness to specific manifestation (i.e. conception, perception -- the forms of any moment) -- and the City of Eight is a grouping that falls very far forward (toward manifestation).
The *focus* of intellect, ego, mind and senses isn't the problem; that's an ongoing aspect of human experiencing.
Incorrectly identifying with them, though, due to language-based conditioning - the Maya of Matrika, and, well, "hence all the trouble".
Literally.
And actually.
By relaxing and opening via practices and inquiry, our sense of self expands, until it finally expands completely - and there's only wholeness, at all levels of awareness/consciousness -- there's no non-wholeness, in reality.
Wholeness is all that's actually here, but the conditioning to identifying with Puryastaka runs very deep - and that's what systems like AYP are for: to help us release those conditioned identifications which keep us dreaming we're bound.
Because those conditioned identifications manifest in the physical body, via neuro-chemical and other changes brought about by mind-conditions and actions driven by attachments and aversions -- form-practices such as AYP's can be extremely beneficial, as can inquiry and awareness practices.
Hence the three levels taught in Kashmir Shaivism - and the sets of practices associated with them.
As you read through the Stanzas On Vibration (aka the Yoga Spandakarika), and other texts, I think you'll see that this (Puryastaka as the incorrect identifications which keep bondage in place) is always, or almost always. the context the term Puryastaka is used within.
I hope that's useful.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Kashmir Shaivism - The Stanzas of Vibration
