|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
bewell
1275 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 2:12:38 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
...There is also no point in spouting Advaita cliches and platitudes at those who don't have enough inner silence (discernment) to realize that these statements have no intellectual benefit....that they need to percolate in Silence and the realizations that they are meant to point at need to arise from within.
That is so well put! The phrasing came to me today as I was (literally) tearing out a ceiling to make a skylight, so I came back to re-read, and express my appreciation for this observation.
It occurs to me that that is how I read a lot of what Saaragam had to say about some aspects of dwelling in nirvana -- letting it "percolate in Silence..." |
Edited by - bewell on Dec 08 2010 2:14:10 PM |
 |
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 2:46:53 PM
|
Hi bewell 
Jeff Foster wrote a note recently that kind of described what came after Advaita for him....I'll share that here cause I really like it...you may too:
"I am officially no longer an 'Advaita teacher' or 'Nonduality teacher' - if, indeed, I ever was one. Life cannot be put into words, and however beautiful the words of Advaita/Nonduality are, they must be discarded in the end. I could never claim to be any sort of authority on this stuff. I will continue to speak, to sing my song to those who are open to listening, but gone is the need to adhere to any tradition, to use Advaita-speak to avoid real, authentic human engagement, to pretend that I am in any way more or less special than you, to kid you that i know more than you, to play the 'teacher' by refusing to meet you in the play, to stop listening to you because i see you as 'still stuck in the dream' or 'still a person'. This message is about love, in the true sense of the word - otherwise it is simply nihilism masquerading as freedom. The 'Advaita Police' reply 'Who cares?'. I say I do. I do."
Love!
 |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 4:23:29 PM
|
I find it interesting to read something that isn't different from AYP, but has a sort of caustic, abrasive effect that scratches below the surface a bit.
Saagarams words about accepting every thought without any attachment are no different to anything I have read before, yet some how his enthusiastic approach, has underlined something for me.
I find myself enjoying my thoughts and body energies in a way that has me grinning like a cheshire cat. I can't remember that I have ever 'not' thought this way (if that makes sense) yet somehow something has subtly changed.
Just listening to an ordinary person singing the other day made me feel like it was God singing, or as if God joined in, it made me swell up like a blow fish. That is definitely something new and seems to be a direct reaction to reading this particular post.
Maybe it was just the tune up I needed, a rock thrown in a pool that lifts some of the silt from the bottom. Anyway thanks for it.
|
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 4:44:35 PM
|
| Love is where this all leads |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 5:39:51 PM
|
There is a story about a monk who was the dean of Nalanda University and the foremost Buddhist scholar of his day. His name was Naropada. One day a haggard old woman was in his room, and he was shocked. She asked him if he new some tantra by heart, and he said he did. She jumped up and down gleefully. Then, she asked him if he understood what it meant. He gave some explanation about emptiness and phenomena. Then, she started crying. He asked her why she was crying. She said he knew the words but didn't understand the meaning. She told him to go see the guru Tilak. So he gave up his office and went on a journey. When got to Udyan, he asked around for the famous guru Tilak. The locals said they never heard of a famous guru Tilak, but there is a homeless fisherman named Tilak. So he went to the lake where they said he was. He saw some guy looked like a bum biting off fish heads. Somehow he knew this was his guru and he was going to get some super fantastic knowledge. He went and bowed down to him and asked for instruction. Tilak told him he didn't have anything to teach. The monk pressed him, so Tilak said, "okay jump off this cliff," which he did. After he broke all his bones, Tilak healed him. Then, made him do eleven more suicide missions and healed him. Finally, when Naropada was beyond mentally exhausted, Tilak told him, "okay now I'm going to give you my precious teaching." Naropada was so happy, and just as he was about to squeal gleefully, Tilak took off his wooden sandal and beat him over the head until he fell unconscious. When he woke up, he realized nonconceptuality, and Tilak gave him this teaching.
http://www.keithdowman.net/mahamudra/tilopa.htm |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 5:45:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi bewell
Jeff Foster wrote a note recently that kind of described what came after Advaita for him....I'll share that here cause I really like it...you may too:
"I am officially no longer an 'Advaita teacher' or 'Nonduality teacher' - if, indeed, I ever was one. Life cannot be put into words, and however beautiful the words of Advaita/Nonduality are, they must be discarded in the end. I could never claim to be any sort of authority on this stuff. I will continue to speak, to sing my song to those who are open to listening, but gone is the need to adhere to any tradition, to use Advaita-speak to avoid real, authentic human engagement, to pretend that I am in any way more or less special than you, to kid you that i know more than you, to play the 'teacher' by refusing to meet you in the play, to stop listening to you because i see you as 'still stuck in the dream' or 'still a person'. This message is about love, in the true sense of the word - otherwise it is simply nihilism masquerading as freedom. The 'Advaita Police' reply 'Who cares?'. I say I do. I do."
Love!
This must be like a triumph for you. Plant the flag of triumph for your side. |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 7:01:24 PM
|
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
This must be like a triumph for you. Plant the flag of triumph for your side.
Hahaha.... no, this is not a triumph for me or "my side." There are no sides. We are all in this together. But it *is* nice to see someone who has, for years, being saying "There is no one here, there is nothing to do" come full circle, back to embracing the human aspect of liberation.
Wishing you the best.
Love!
|
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 10:35:06 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
This must be like a triumph for you. Plant the flag of triumph for your side.
Hahaha.... no, this is not a triumph for me or "my side." There are no sides. We are all in this together. But it *is* nice to see someone who has, for years, being saying "There is no one here, there is nothing to do" come full circle, back to embracing the human aspect of liberation.
Wishing you the best.
Love!
Hi Carson, Saagaram & All,
As I've mentioned here and elsewhere a time or two, I was on a conference call with Jeff Foster and Scott Kiloby a few months ago, and when I heard Jeff describe his new view, laughingly said, "It sounds like you've awakened out of your Advaitic awakening!"
Jeff laughingly agreed.
Just a day or two back, Scott Kiloby (author of Love's Quiet Revolution, one of the best spiritual books I've ever read) posted a Facebook update:
"I am a failed arrogant non-duality teacher."
He can post that, because even though I'm sure he won't say it ..... he's a consummately successfully genuinely-realized non-duality example ... all day, every day.
Concepts are just fingers pointing at the moon; true liberation is utterly real ... and utterly ordinary.
.... and infinitely priceless.
.... and eternally available, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS to Saagaram - I know Carson, both online and offline (we co-led, along with Shanti, Katrine and 20 or so attendees .. the first AYP Retreat, near the end of October) ... and he's not at all about victory; he's about love; all of us are; non-duality is just another term for wholeness ... and in living wholeness, there's no non-love.
|
Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 08 2010 10:36:31 PM |
|
|
|
slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 12:26:18 PM
|
|
Edited by - slenten on Dec 13 2010 08:59:20 AM |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 1:56:03 PM
|
Hi CarsonZi and Kirtanman,
I have no idea who these folks are who you are name-dropping. I can't say if they have anything of any value to say or not. I was categorized an "Advaita" without asking for my permission, thank you very much, but okay fine I'll play along, even though I have no idea what an Advaita teacher these days has to say. I know about the famous figures in history, but that notwithstanding, I note a clear sectarianism going on here with regard to what is considered AYP, where AYP equals the real deal, and the whole story, and the deceptive Advaita people who spout off Advaita terms thinking its enlightenment.
Karma is totally unfathomable, and the nature of karma is for every possible action to manifest. At this moment, there is no possible action that is not manifest somewhere in the wide cosmos. There are people who have awakened from hearing a few words of a master speak. A master speaks, teaches, methods, and then does so on multiple levels of meaning and complexity.
Who are you to say what works or what doesn't, just because it didn't work for your or anyone you know? That's your karma. The point I'm making here is that beliefs lead to closed mindedness and sectarianism, which in turn lead to disputes and disputes lead to suffering. Belief: it is like so; it must be so..., etc., are in essence suffering. You don't need any iota of "inner silence" to recognize this, or to drop it. That alone opens up one's mind to a spaciousness which is in itself, inner silence and stillness.
You don't even need the opinion: we're all in this together. I'm not saying we are in this together or we are apart. If you want to be nonconceptual inner silence then walk the walk and talk the talk. |
Edited by - Saagaram on Dec 09 2010 2:48:13 PM |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 2:33:47 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by slenten
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hi Everyone,
If one just stays in a state where nothing is grasped or rejected there's nothing to meditate and you are in an inconceivable way. It's an effortless pleasure.
Hello Saagaram,
Can you be more specific about what you are doing/what is going on in the head space and what effect it is having on the rest of your nervous system? It sounds like you are keeping the mind in abeyance, so to speak, from sensory input, thoughts and emotional content. Is it keeping the mind unfocused, keeping it from its habitual grasping and identifying? Do you feel that once you have it, then an intense focus occurs accompanied by spontaneous breath retention? Are you also not grasping the state itself? Is the rest of your body harmonized with the mind in abeyance?
Thank you,
slenten.
Hi Slenten, These are fantastic questions from a pure heart. You asked an honest question, you deserve an honest answer with no Advaita catch phrases.
The short answer is that I have this body, this speech and this mind. This I know first person shooter style. It is what it is. It has its condition. Whatever. You know what I'm saying man? Here it is, doing its thing... I just kick back and watch the show.
The long answer is that I'm looking through these eyes, breathing through the mouth and nostrils, hearing many sounds, feeling everything, and all sensations within my body. Here comes a concern, "I have this bill to pay, where am I going to get the money...?" This thought comes to my mind. I have this concern. I also see myself having it. I have a choice, now, Slenten. I can follow the thought to its destination, or I can just watch. Just watching is letting it go. Now I have another thought, "Should I not follow this thought? or Should I stop following this thought...?" I have this thought. I also see myself having this thought. These thoughts are accompanied by some energy, an anxiety, perhaps, an inner tension. Maybe I feel it in my temples or in chest or my stomach or my balls are all. Now I have another choice, Slenten. I can follow this thought or I can just watch. Where are these questions and what are these sensations? From what do they arise? I don't see anything, nothing. Yet, there they are, as plain as the nose on my face. I can't say these are there. They have no particular characteristics. I can't say these are not there. What is the question? What am I trying to achieve? I can't control these, stop these or make them multiply. The mind is on its own course. It's substance is no different than a mirage of water in the desert. It's just like a horizon I can never reach, a rainbow over the hill that vanishes when you reach the hill. I let it run its course. I'm just sitting. Sure, at first maybe there are more tensions in my body than pleasures. But I've freed these tensions, like my youngest child who has just left the house. I let them run free. If the body is in pain, it is free to pain. In time, the pressures and tensions subside into a blissful peace and sense of love for every being imaginable, and in this peace every imagined being is a loved being, let alone beings we actually meet in the course of life. Because to be a free being, to free beings, to free being itself, is to love beings. Any "love" other than that is just feeling, another link in the chain of bondage. If pleasure comes, come. If pain comes, come. Or don't, either way it's okay. Whatever you do don't take sides. Don't follow, don't avoid. Whatever happens is the nature of being itself. You are born free. There's no "freeing" anything. There's only the suffering of failing to control. Just kicking back and watching the show is freeing. |
Edited by - Saagaram on Dec 09 2010 2:48:26 PM |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 4:27:52 PM
|
Hi Saagaram
I wish you the best of luck
Love!
|
|
|
|
JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 5:01:22 PM
|
Hi Saagaram,
I can't resist poking the bear.
quote:
The truth is that much of the self-inquiry that goes on these days is non-relational (meaning, not in the presence of the witness – not progressive) and often counter-productive to spiritual progress because it adds layers of mental baggage without much cultivation of our native awareness. Ironically, effective practices like deep meditation, which do cultivate the witness, may be shunned in favor of such a rigid approach, which does not cultivate a relationship between the objects of perception and the witness. So much of self-inquiry today is like this, and many find themselves beating their heads against a wall. It isn’t necessary!
On the other hand, for the few who have had abiding inner silence since an early age, there will be a relationship between ideas, perceptions and unconditioned awareness. Self-inquiry in this case is relational. These are the "spontaneously awakened" souls who dazzle us with their insight, and who are often idolized and imitated. There is an air of exclusivity about them, which can unintentionally lead to a have and have not mentality. Being in the club can become more important than getting enlightened. We have all seen it happen, haven’t we?
Enlightenment is not an exclusive condition reserved for the few, and the rest of us are not doomed to imitate the instruction to "Just be." No. With the addition of deep meditation and other practices that promote the cultivation of the witness, and much more, self-inquiry will become relational (in stillness) and the direct cognition of life as a dance of endless joy in emptiness will be there for everyone.
By relational self-inquiry, we mean a progressive and intimate relationship between ideas and our abiding inner silence. When our thoughts are naturally witnessed as objects, something happens. A joining occurs, and the idea dissolves along with its meaning in stillness. Then we know the truth of it. The same is true of the perception of our feelings and external objects in the world. As the witness arises, all of our perceptions become relational and spiritually progressive in daily living.
From http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
Sound familiar? There's some good stuff in the lessons here. You should check them out, between all the posting of course. |
|
|
|
faileforever
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 5:31:35 PM
|
| In my own opinion (I respect any one else's and am not rejecting it)words are fantastic but in the end the results speak for themselves. All one has to do is look at this community full of loving, open minded people, their experiences, the changes that are taking place in them..and the changes that are taking place in me. Much love. |
|
|
|
divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 5:37:07 PM
|
Hi Saagaram, thanks for all the great quotes!
There is a book you might enjoy, "Approaching The Great Perfection: Simultaneous and Gradual Approaches to Dzogchen Practice in Jigme Lingpa's, Longchen Nyingtig" by Sam Van Schaik. It also contains translations of parts of Jigme Lingpa's aforementioned work. If you have not read it already, I highly recommend it. It was recommended to me by alwayson in a thread a while back, and I thank him again for that.
In case you have not read it, I offer a few quotes from the translations for your consideration and/or comment, and to whet your interest:
"Although the buddha nature pervades the nature of beings like oil in a sesame seed, the two adventitious obstructions should be cleansed, just as one removes something unbearable. The power to purify them simultaneously is none other than the immeasurable Vajrayana. I bow down to the accomplished scholar who has examined its nature.
This is the path of methods for those trainees of the sharpest faculties, those who are wealthy with the jewels of many noble qualities. The crossing of the ocean of ripening and liberation is the tradition of those supreme sailors the awareness holders....
When following the Vajrayana, the wisdom that arises through initiation - which is not reliant on words, systems and judgments - is instantaneously and forcefully recognized as the manifest wisdom of one's own state. Through this kind of meditation, rejection and antidotes are purified in self-liberation, and thence the paths and stages are completed in one. This is primordial liberation.
Although this is true, if those who talk about the Paramitayana have not reached a proper understanding of the definitions of the five paths, the meaning of what they are saying will become confused. Therefore my lama, the Omniscient One, Longchenpa, has said:
"By engaging in the main accumulations, listening, thinking, and merit - you reach the path of accumulation. By application on the path of seeing non-conceptual wisdom, you reach the path of application. By really seeing the true condition, you reach the path of seeing. By making what has been seen into meditation you reach the path of meditation. By reaching the end of what can be taught and meditating no more, you reach the path of no more learning"
Thus (Jigme Lingpa resumes), in {the paths of} accumulation and application, with a little luck you may see manifest the level of truth that comes from the supposition: "This is the definite essence of ultimate truth." Therefore these are paths of activity through faith...Of what nature is the path of no more learning? It is certainly on the stage of buddhahood itself through direct perception.....
You may ask "if this is so, are these qualities of the paths and stages made manifest through initiation alone?"
They are not. The lineage of the four vajras residing in the heart of beings is awakened by the power of the four initiations. Those trainees of the very sharpest faculties like Garb Dorje, Self Arisen Padmasambhava, and Indrabhuti, who were lords of the mandala while seeming to be ordinary students, were spontaneously liberated on hearing, but gradualist people will not reach the goal that way. So in this situation, there must be some further striving for complete liberation...the conditions can be created by devotion, and through the gradual attainment of realization, buddhahood is possible in this life, or in future lives...
In the tantras of the Great Perfection there is the example of the young khyung bird that reaches perfection inside the egg. As soon as it is freed from the egg it fly's, and then nothing has the power to stop it. However, before the bird is free from the bindings of the egg, there is an extended development into fullness over a long period of time...
In the paramitayana the result manifests at some point uncountable eaons after beginning on the path. In the phase of Vajrayana, all qualities of renunciation and realization are perfected inside the seal of the body of the meditator, and upon freedom from the "egg" of the body, he guides others to certainty in laying hold of the secure place, in the manner of an optical illusion on the stage possessing the twofold purity. Thus the qualities are not necessarily seen to manifest at all."
"The alaya is the basis of all samsara and nirvanna; it is not unlike muddy water. In it, because of confusion led by latent ignorance, the brightness of wisdom and gnossis has become hidden.
The dharmakaya is like water that is clear of mud; It includes in itself the expulsion of adventitious impurities and is the essence of all the qualities of liberation. Henceforth there is wisdom, undeluded awareness.
Therefore like the isolation of water and mud, {the dharmakya} is separable from that indeterminate aspect. Hold a secure place in the expanse of dharmakaya, reflexive awareness. Look upon all scenes in the expanse of unstained wisdom.
The alaya vijnana is similar to ice on water. It arises as the dynamic energy that apprehends the state of the essence, and due to attachment to the object, it is generally deceptive.
Thus the {first} essential point of the Seminal Heart is transference from consciousness into the dharmakaya, the wisdom that is aware that the manifesting objects - form, feeling, perception, and so on - are empty of self.
Those who, not understanding this, mistake the alaya for the dharmakya, are like blind men wandering in the desert without a guide. Because of their confusion about the vital points of ground and result. They have come to a standstill on the path that accomplishes buddhahood in one lifetime.
Samaya
Mind and gnosis are like air and space. Mind is the aspect of deceptive objects of fixation. Vividly filling up, swirling round, and pouring out again, or briefly becoming agitated like a hurricane. Its foundation is the condition for the various sensations.
Gnosis is without support and all-pervasive. In its emptiness it opens up as the spacelike expanse. In its luminosity it is nonconceptual and radiant like a polished crystal. Thus the {second} essential point of the seminal heart is to hold a secure place in the natural state, utterly liberated from mind in the expanse of gnosis.
Those who have not realized this say that mind is everything, divided according to whether it is tainted or untainted by the perception of objects.
Such views, which cannot apprehend the nature that is like water or quicksilver falling to the ground, are confused about the place of simultaneous liberation, where the summit of Vajrayana makes the result the path.
Samaya
Samatha is like a person without sensory faculties: vividness is dulled, dispersed, and stultified, Mindfulness is held firm, and recollection is fixated on an object.
VIipasyana is like a person complete with the five sense doors: trying to be mindful of the nature, and seeing the true condition of the essence, he proceeds intellectually, with excessive analysis and too much objectification.
Therefore, the {third} essential point of the Seminal Heart is to meditate throughout the three times in the true condition that is without essence or root, and not to fabricate with ones intellect the naked natural state of ordinariness, the primordial union {of samatha and vipayana}.
The traditions of the vehicles of supposition fail to realize this; by their "enlightenment" which seals everything with the emptiness of existence and nonexistence, they settle heavily into the aspect of stillness, cutting off thoughts and imprisoning the manifestations of the winds. They chase after objects, armed with antidotes, grasping at their form of vipasyana, which analyzes according to scripture and reasoning. Those who make ambition into a path of mental concentration, because they only have an intellectual inclination for this vehicle, will not have the good fortune to see it as it is." END QUOTATIONS
Wishing you the very best, dfb
P.S.: As you said about the cities and tomatoes with regard to the use of the word "mind" etc. I realize you are probably not using the word "mind" the same way Jigme Lingpa is, and look forward to any comments you may choose to make. A good deal of what he says seems to chime with some of your earlier remarks; though perhaps not all of it. Thanks again for your quotes.
|
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 9:03:14 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Hi Saagaram,
I can't resist poking the bear.
quote:
The truth is that much of the self-inquiry that goes on these days is non-relational (meaning, not in the presence of the witness – not progressive) and often counter-productive to spiritual progress because it adds layers of mental baggage without much cultivation of our native awareness. Ironically, effective practices like deep meditation, which do cultivate the witness, may be shunned in favor of such a rigid approach, which does not cultivate a relationship between the objects of perception and the witness. So much of self-inquiry today is like this, and many find themselves beating their heads against a wall. It isn’t necessary!
On the other hand, for the few who have had abiding inner silence since an early age, there will be a relationship between ideas, perceptions and unconditioned awareness. Self-inquiry in this case is relational. These are the "spontaneously awakened" souls who dazzle us with their insight, and who are often idolized and imitated. There is an air of exclusivity about them, which can unintentionally lead to a have and have not mentality. Being in the club can become more important than getting enlightened. We have all seen it happen, haven’t we?
Enlightenment is not an exclusive condition reserved for the few, and the rest of us are not doomed to imitate the instruction to "Just be." No. With the addition of deep meditation and other practices that promote the cultivation of the witness, and much more, self-inquiry will become relational (in stillness) and the direct cognition of life as a dance of endless joy in emptiness will be there for everyone.
By relational self-inquiry, we mean a progressive and intimate relationship between ideas and our abiding inner silence. When our thoughts are naturally witnessed as objects, something happens. A joining occurs, and the idea dissolves along with its meaning in stillness. Then we know the truth of it. The same is true of the perception of our feelings and external objects in the world. As the witness arises, all of our perceptions become relational and spiritually progressive in daily living.
From http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
Sound familiar? There's some good stuff in the lessons here. You should check them out, between all the posting of course.
Re-referring to your sect does not make your sect correct or wrong. A good defense though JDH. I'm sold. Reaching in my pocket here and pulling out... nothing but lint. Sorry, but honestly, I'm going to buy everything I can as soon as I have time, see I'm engaged in some pretty contentious non-relational self-inquiry, and one army of my ideas has almost vanquished the other army of my ideas, except for this comeback play the losing army is making and I just can't wait to see if they, no they lost. Damn. Here comes another army. This is getting good. Hey, JDH have you noticed that you are sort of irritated? Me too, just a bit, but did you witness it? I almost missed it too, between all the postings. Good thing you kept quiet, though. |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 9:48:25 PM
|
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hey, JDH have you noticed that you are sort of irritated?
Have you noticed you own irritation? I'd say it is quite evident in-between all the dripping sarcasm. I honestly don't care, it doesn't cause any suffering here, but I think it may be a good idea to tone down the "clothed jabs" a little. Just for the sake of civility. Thanks.
Love!
|
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 9:57:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hi CarsonZi and Kirtanman,
I note a clear sectarianism going on here with regard to what is considered AYP, where AYP equals the real deal, and the whole story, and the deceptive Advaita people who spout off Advaita terms thinking its enlightenment.
You may wish to re-note.
I, at least (maybe do a search on my username, and the term "advaita") have been one of the more pro-advaita voices, here, over time.
You have some good and interesting things to say -- what I don't get is your seeming inclinations to jump to conclusions about those of us you interact with, here.
The idea of an "AYP vs. Advaita" thing doesn't make any sense to me; Advaita is just Sanskrit for non-duality, another term for wholeness, or reality. How could that be in conflict with one of the ways (AYP) which can help us to experience this reality, wholly?
If you give us a chance, and cut us some slack, especially in the phrasing department ... I think you'll find we're one of the most open-minded and tolerant groups of people around.
Not to mention that some of us have had some rather good results with AYP, and are consistently enjoying the nirvana you've referred to, throughout this thread.
As In: you may well have some things of value to say - but maybe, so do some of us.
Every so often, people will show up here, and try to teach us, or wake us up. We're not much interested in either, only because, to be blunt, AYP works; faster, better, and more truly than almost any other system anyone has been able to point to, to date.
If someone ever does show up with a method or view that blows AYP away ... chances are extremely high that we'll adopt it.
That's fairly unlikely, though, because what we're doing here is already actually the process of adapting the "best of the best" of the world's yogic practices, and refining them, and the process of sadhana, to an even finer "hone".
It's working out very nicely.
The experience of instant nirvana is wonderful.
The issue is: most people don't experience it for more than an instant at a time. That's where practices come in.
Some practices cause people to loop .... meditating or inquiring for decades, and never awakening.
That's not what we're about, here.
We're about consistent, replicable awakening, and consistent replicable progress to awakening.
It's not that the liberated state, the Self, isn't always already here, now; it assuredly is, and only it is.
The issue is that human body-minds, based on artificial constrictions within consciousness, which are then reflected in the body, are unsuited to the experience of liberation.
Rarely, someone can "awaken once" and stay awake .... but very, very rarely.
Practices make the body-mind a liberation-rich environment by literally and actually bringing the body-mind into harmony with the liberated awareness that is our true nature - nirvana, if you will, or buddha-nature, if you prefer.
quote:
Karma is totally unfathomable, and the nature of karma is for every possible action to manifest. At this moment, there is no possible action that is not manifest somewhere in the wide cosmos. There are people who have awakened from hearing a few words of a master speak. A master speaks, teaches, methods, and then does so on multiple levels of meaning and complexity.
And karma is ultimately illusory; there is no karma in liberation.
quote:
The point I'm making here is that beliefs lead to closed mindedness and sectarianism, which in turn lead to disputes and disputes lead to suffering.
Yes, indeed.
quote:
Belief: it is like so; it must be so..., etc., are in essence suffering. You don't need any iota of "inner silence" to recognize this, or to drop it. That alone opens up one's mind to a spaciousness which is in itself, inner silence and stillness.
It's the experience of the spaciousness that's key, however we come to it. Meditation and inquiry as practiced in AYP just help to produce it consistently, and increasingly, in comparison to most other systems.
Basically, we're about the general trajectory and set of practices that's most effective for the highest number of people.
Mantra japa can work; kriya yoga can work; inquiry alone can work; vipassana can work; zen can work ... but these all contain problems, pitfalls and roadblocks that make for a very rough, or detour-laden ride, for most practitioners.
And, ultimately, they're all "maps and menus" anyway; we awaken out of whatever path we follow.
The whole point, though, is to realize actual living liberation.
To date, AYP is producing practitioners who experience this, at least as effectively and consistently than any other system - ever - and more so, than most.
This isn't a rave about "our system is great" ... it's more: if you're not liberated in ongoing experience, you might not want to write us off, just yet.
quote:
You don't even need the opinion: we're all in this together. I'm not saying we are in this together or we are apart. If you want to be nonconceptual inner silence then walk the walk and talk the talk.
When we know we are non-conceptual inner silence, there's not much else *to* do.
In saying we're all in this together (Carson, I think it was) ..... was just trying to be nice (plus, he means it; plus, it's true .... whether a given thinking-mind holds that opinion, or not).
Basically, if you relax just a little, we might all be able to have a good conversation, here, if you care to.
Either way, peace, and all the best.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
|
|
|
|
JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 10:22:53 PM
|
| I only posted it because it mirrored a lot of what you had just written in your previous post, and thought it might pique your interest in some of the other topics besides self-inquiry/discernment. Surely yogani's writings could at least be worth a read as food for thought, no need to sign up or start doing the practices. |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 11:06:48 PM
|
In all seriousness folks, if all these unreformed advaita nihilists are spouting off nonsense jargon like "just be," does it really make sense to take the opposing position? What makes an untruth less true?
You know what really cooks my noodle? The Buddha's teachings in the Parayanavagga were cryptic to the people he was talking to, no doubt. These sayings don't really make sense as a stand-alone practice until the teachings of the tantras come out 1500 years later. You know Advanced Yoga Practices and Tantra Lessons, the Great Completion Stage? The rise of world consciousness is not going to culminate in a yoga class is it? Or maybe AFTER it? Hmmm? But doesn't it take the preceding moment of world consciousness to make it culminate? Once it is culminated, do you see, here it is, the culmination? Then a teaching beyond cause and effect is understood and it is indeed a practice of doing nothing because hope is done away with. When time is taken out of the equation, something magical unfolds. Observe... [waving hands and wiggling fingers woo woo.]
Buddha was not even talking to the people he was talking to, or he was, and he was talking to them after six or seven rebirths when this thread of instruction would come to be put into widespread use and then they could look back into the original sayings of the Buddha and know it all fits together and their teacher took care of stream enterers or not and they would simply reap the benefit of a continuous historical line of understanding. Either way they are benefited. Was he being cruel or compassionate? ONLY an OPEN mind has the possibility of seeing the realm of all possibilities and the streams of becoming. Because after Buddha gave the Parayanavagga he gave the Vinaya, a laundry list of rules and step by step practices. Is it because his trial and error learned him the better way? Or because he was saving all beings forever in all dimensions and three times at once in all their myriad conditions? Only doubt or nondoubt answers this question yes or no.
Now what do we have? So many methods and ways, practices and regimens, self-important do nothing teachers that love to hear themselves talk, jargons what we say. Rapacious bastards like me. Go ahead cut and quote that line and shoot it back at me. I like it rough. Here are the waves of folding and unfolding and knock knock knock on your noggin. There are no limitations. Maybe you do one mantra, maybe one hundred thousand trillion. Maybe you awaken now, maybe next life, maybe you will be the last sentient being to awaken in all of samsara at the end of time. But here's the catch, time doesn't end, and there will never be the last sentient being to awaken, so maybe you will never awaken. Isn't that hopeless?
Or isn't that the bodhisattva's vow? And that's the point, your heart is so large it encompasses eternity so your vow not to leave samsara until every last suffering being is saved from misery is not for nothing, because love is everything and phenomena and you are nondual. That is your inmost desire is it not? To save all beings from suffering? Can there ever be a Buddha with a vow not to leave samsara until all sentient beings are saved? Is the bodhisattva a lower rank than Buddha? A bodhisattva would then have the bigger heart so how could she be lower? Can there ever be a world without sorrow? No, because a confused projection is beyond elaboration and is without boundary. Samsara is dimensionless. The Buddha is wiser and knows resting in equanimity is the truth which is why he is fully enlightened. If the bodhisattva's vow was not to leave until the end of samsara, and the Buddha was once a bodhisattva, then he would never become Buddha. Buddha would not be possible. Isn't this hopelessness? Or compassion?
Or is it that there are no buddhas or bodhisattvas because these are not two, and that's why in all their omniscience and countless lives there are buddhas and bodhisattvas more numerous than sentient beings, which themselves are beyond enumeration? Even this present moment is the buddha. The path and stages are not one or many. Enlightenment is not waking up to a something. If enlightenment was something we could all see it. No one can see it. Is that hopeless or compassion?
So if all that is true, and here you are born after infinite previous lives, what more must you prove? Could there possibly be more to achieve? Could achievement ever be possible? Is it out of the question you have achieved it already? Letting go of achievement or non-achievement, doesn't it put you in league with the buddhas and bodhisattvas of the three times? Does your seeing it make it so? Does not seeing it make it not so? Does suffering make it not so? Because bodhisattvas suffer too, and they are not enlightened.
What is the compassion of all the buddhas and bodhisattvas of the three times? What compassion could be irreducible and beyond measure?
How about you, now, you free, the burden, put it down, rest, the trumpets are blaring in your honor, gods and demi-goddesses have descended into your very fabric. This question you have. This place where you ask this question. It is you you omniscient buddha. Otherwise how in the world would you know to ask it? You are more than you let on to be.
You have arrived at the realm without anything more to hope for nor anything more to fear. It's over. You did it. You deserve one big congratulations. You may now put the clothes in the dryer, in the Pure Land of the Immaculate Clothes of the All-Knowing One! And oh yeah, that suffering there, that problem you're having, the cloud of uncertainty... That's just there to remind you of your mission. Don't leave anyone behind. Not until the last one crosses... Remember? |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 11:15:21 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hey, JDH have you noticed that you are sort of irritated?
Have you noticed you own irritation? I'd say it is quite evident in-between all the dripping sarcasm. I honestly don't care, it doesn't cause any suffering here, but I think it may be a good idea to tone down the "clothed jabs" a little. Just for the sake of civility. Thanks.
Love!
Relax, I'm just horsing around. I love you too. I want to hug you and kiss you. |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 11:17:19 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
I only posted it because it mirrored a lot of what you had just written in your previous post, and thought it might pique your interest in some of the other topics besides self-inquiry/discernment. Surely yogani's writings could at least be worth a read as food for thought, no need to sign up or start doing the practices.
You're right. It did. I don't like to read anymore. I like talking to you though. |
|
|
|
Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 11:21:05 PM
|
| Hey Kirtanman, you know the funny thing about karma? As illusory as it is it can still put your liberated ass in the hospital. I don't mean you you, I mean the collective we us you. Illusions have a funny way of kicking us in the balls. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 12:09:15 AM
|
| I am wondering - if one just stays in this state where nothing is grasped or rejected and there's nothing to meditate, would the mind be quiet and peaceful? |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 09:58:40 AM
|
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hey, JDH have you noticed that you are sort of irritated?
Have you noticed you own irritation? I'd say it is quite evident in-between all the dripping sarcasm. I honestly don't care, it doesn't cause any suffering here, but I think it may be a good idea to tone down the "clothed jabs" a little. Just for the sake of civility. Thanks.
Love!
Relax, I'm just horsing around. I love you too. I want to hug you and kiss you.
Don't worry, I am quite relaxed. I was just reminding you (or perhaps making you aware of in the case that you weren't already aware) that there is a forum policy against being rude/unkind to other members which results in having your posts returned and not posted. The post to JDH was right on that line of not being acceptable here, so, I was just making sure that you are aware of the forum policies. We don't allow posts that could be seen as offensive to others. So, I was just asking you politely to please keep things civil and relaxed. We are happy to have you here, we are happy that you are instigating a discussion of this nature, but we don't tolerate antagonizing other forumites. Just keep it in mind. Thanks and hopefully we will continue to hear more from you.
Love!
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Paarayana
