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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 9:55:31 PM
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Hi all:
This has probably been asked somewhere before, but what are the thoughts on headstand. Recommended or not?
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 01:42:16 AM
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Generally: asana practice is "modular" according to AYP. Do it or don't do it, exercise self pacing, but it's really pretty open to you. yogani has provided some good basic info. He suggests not overdoing it, but suggests some asana practice to get past various blocks. I do a LOT of asana, as do a number of experienced AYP people, but I worked up very gradually.
Specifically: AYP doesn't have anything at all to say about headstand. But if you're practicing asana, headstand is the king of yoga positions, and it's a great thing to practice. Go for it.
If I can read between your lines, headstand indeed affects crown chakra. But I've put in many many many hours over the years standing on my head, and I haven't had issue with premature crown opening. You're cool, don't worry. don't think about the crown, think about your alignment, and enjoy the delightfulness of inversion. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2006 01:43:02 AM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 07:33:32 AM
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Hi Jim:
Thanks for you kind response.I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "modular" but I was hoping to get the green light on doing the posture.
Guy |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 10:25:07 AM
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Hi Guy:
"Inversion" is one of the basic principles in asanas, and is found in many postures, including the lowly toe-touch (or whatever we can do in that direction).
The headstand is king of the inversion postures, though some would argue that gravity boots (hanging upside down by the boots) is superior. Well, anything can be taken to extremes, and that is what needs to be cautioned here. Seeking a good balance with self-pacing in our routine of practices is the key.
Also, with the headstand in particular, care must be exercised not to place the full weight of the body on the neck. This can lead to a permanent neck injury. So if you are learning headstand, make sure to learn the proper means of supporting your weight with the triangular placement of the arms. This enables the practitioner to regulate the weight placed on the neck. Very important.
As you may know, in the AYP Easy Lessons book, there are some 14 postures which are recommended as an "asana starter kit" -- a well-rounded series that can be done in about 10 minutes before sitting practices. In there is the shoulder stand and several other postures involving inversion. Consider getting comfortable and stable in a routine like that before moving on to more advanced postures like headstand. Just a suggestion.
Do take your time and never force anything in asanas.
I am moving this topic to the asanas forum for better placement.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:22:59 AM
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On the body weight and neck issue, readers along may want to address the issue with an experienced asana teacher. There are lots of different approaches; for example, the system I study, Iyengar, teaches that you can actually get in more physical trouble by placing weight on the tripod of arms, hands, and elbows. Doing so tenses the trapezius and causes the shoulders to tense and raise (the chief dangerous no-no of the pose...must keep shoulders "down" and relaxed). What keeps you safe in headstand is good alignment, and once your alignment is correct, Iyengar yoga (one of many systems) teaches that you can have little or no weight on hands and arms. Headstand should definitely be learned with a teacher's help. There are poses to learn before that prepare you, and there are "things to know" that you won't get properly out of books.
I do 5-10 minutes of headstand each day (have for many years), and while I suffered from stick necks and poor mobility in the neck when I was younger, my neck keeps getting more and more strong, healthy, and relaxed. and I can tell you that the pose feels GREAT once you've got the hang of it...and it's actually not that difficult!
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:13:23 PM
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Hi Jim:
If complete weight on the neck can be done safely, I am certainly not opposed. Proper instruction is the key in this, and I bow to Iyengar in all things "asana."
However, do-it-yourselfers beware in taking on the neck-only supported headstand without professional instruction. If training is not available and you must do it, then I still suggest the arm tripod method rather than the neck. It may not be ideal (as per Jim/Iyengar) but much safer for amateurs.
The guru is in you.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:21:18 PM
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Jim.
I would take issue to instructing beginners to put the weight on the head and neck. While that may be eventually an ideal it is also important develop the strength and control of the arms and shoulders while learning this pose as the neck is very critical and sensitive. It is also very important to clarify what you mean by shoulders "up" or "down" while talking about an inverted pose as it can be very confusing. Perhaps ypu could say "shoulders should move towards the floor or the ceiling", or in the shoulders case whether towards or away from ears. I am relearning this pose after having not practicing it for many years and your suggestions seem to run counter to what I have been taught in Iyengar style.Certainly Iyengar teaches to lift the shoulders toward the ceiling in Light On Yoga but maybe his understanding has changed. There is a tendency for intermediate students to overdo beginning instructions and to exagerations of the true pose. Maybe keeping the shoulders and arms working is a beginner protective instruction that needs to be later released in favor of a more relaxed pose. Perhaps you can clarify a bit more as I would love to increase my capacity and comfort in this pose. I am currently at 3 minutes a day but it does get tiring. |
Edited by - Victor on Feb 17 2006 12:38:19 PM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:21:33 PM
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Hi Yogani and Jim:
Just as soon as I posted this under Satsang Cafe I realized the mistake. Oops too late.
I used to do headstand some twenty years ago, and I guess it's like riding a bike in that you never forget how. I really appreciate the tips on keeping the shoulders relaxed and to watch my alignment.
After not doing much in the way of spiritual work for the last 20 or so years,today is day 60 for me with AYP and I'm lovin it.
Thanks again gentlemen:
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:42:11 PM
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Hey, Victor, we've never disagreed on asana before! A few quick thoughts. First, I didn't say people should put weight on head and neck. I said they shouldn't transfer the weight to arms and elbows, which is a subtly different thing. I got that from Gabriella Giubilaro (Victor's heard of her, but for those reading along, she's one of the most senior Iyengar authorities), who was actually teaching a relatively beginner class at the time, so this wasn't an advanced issue. This may be a relatively new instruction (the Iyengar system adjusts and changes over time), though. Fact of the matter is, you're never going to get a large percentage of your weight onto arms and elbows in headstand anyway...the physics isn't there. It's a slim percentage (certainly not enough to make a huge diff on neck either way), and if you aim to increase that load, it will be at expense of alighment and shoulders (it's not like handstand, where one presses down on hands to extend the body).
What one must do (and here I'm betting you'll agree, Victor) is think "up". The long, long extension of the body upward (try to touch feet to ceiling!) is what keeps the neck from compaction. But to lengthen, you've got to be aligned (and there are subtleties that can't be judged by oneself...a teacher really helps). It's good to practice against a wall to see if you're tilting this way or that, for one thing. Upward extension is the key to not having headstand be a heavy pose where all weight bears uncomfortably on neck. AYP students, with good feel for prana, should find it a fun challenge to extend energy upward, and not just muscle, bone and tendon!
Robert, don't just keep the shoulders relaxed. Make your #1 priority and attention that. They will creep up and you won't know it! Keep them firmly drawn down into the back (Victor's right, my previous description was imprecise; sorry!), and keep your trapezius rolled back, as well. I can say this: my first two years of headstand practice I did not do this, and I had some shoulder pain as a result. You must build a deep aversion to shoulder creep.
Finally, here's something to shoot for: a relaxed openness in the front of the neck. It's hard to achieve, but even trying to do so will work wonders in terms of energy and alignment for this pose. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2006 12:45:44 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:50:07 PM
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Jim,
I took a class with Gabriella in Italy back in 87 and liked her very much. I also know that she knows her headstand because that class was almost completely inversions!
I am now specifically working on improving my headstand and since it has not been the easiest pose for me I am delighted to explore your input on this. You still are using the words up and down however. When I roll my trapezius back and shoudlerblades into my back that seems to make my shoulders lift towards the ceiling and away from my ears. Is that the big no no you speak of? When you say shoulders creeping up, do you mean towards or away from the ears? |
Edited by - Victor on Feb 17 2006 12:52:22 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 3:53:58 PM
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argh, sorry, yeah, problem is I'm not a teacher, i'm just a practiioner, so I tend to use the terms that make sense to me. Let me clear it up.
basic: trapezius moving back toward shoulder blades, shoulder blades moving toward waist, shoulders firmly receded as far from the ground as possible.
intermediate: generally, recreate as complete a tadasana as you possibly can (tadasana is just the basic standing pose, which in some schools of yoga is a very rigorous, detailed, demanding pose, requiring every part of your body to be actively doing something). That is, in any question of alignment that emerges, think tadasana. Your body should be in that exact same alignment: a photo of you in headstand turned upside down should look like you're standing upright (even the feet perpendicular to legs).
advanced twist: Victor, you know the abdomin/ribcage rotation we previously discussed? Where the back ribs move up and the bottom of the front ribcage comes in, all pivoting at the solar plexus? Do that. It's real hard, because back ribs coming up while shoulder blades and trapezius come down seems nearly contradictory. On the other hand, it's the precise same action in tadasana.
Robert, are you getting more than you asked for? :) |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 5:25:08 PM
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Hi Jim:
Even though I don't understand alot of what you and Victor are discussing, I still find the dialogue fasinating, and I'm sure that somewhere in my consciousness there are lessons in there for me.
I did headstand twice today each for about 30 seconds.
Thanks again;
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 6:22:56 PM
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Bear in mind that me and Victor are practioners of an extraordinarily detailed school of hatha yoga. When we talk, it's pretty much unintelligble for anyone else...not necessarily becuase it's deep, but more because it's a distinct way of viewing the body.
Listen, big questions aside, if you need tips on this or any other asana, just shout. Me and Victor don't HAVE to do the angels dancing on pins every single time! |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 10:08:07 PM
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| Thanks Jim. we have no disagreements in technique, it is just that I wasn't sure in your description. Now all is clear to me and i fully concur, You actually helped me by reassurinf me that it is good to take the full balance on the head rather than so much work in the arms. My pose was much better today. |
Edited by - Victor on Feb 17 2006 10:27:40 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 04:40:27 AM
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Victor, I'm glad (and btw, why'd you stop practicing headstand? most consider it the essential pose!).
Let me know if you get anywhere from seeking openness in the front of the neck. I'm nowhere near a master of this pose (even after 20 years), but this has helped me a lot lately. Everything has to be just right for it to occur, and trying to make it occur helps make everythign just right! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 18 2006 04:43:29 AM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 6:49:34 PM
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Hi Jim and Victor:
Two questions please:
(1)
If I integrate the headstand into my twice daily AYP routine would you recommend doing it at the beginning or end of the asana routine, or at what time in relation to meditation?
(2)
Any recommedations on a hatha yoga school/video/web site?
I really want to improve my AYP routine and I live a little in the boonies so the internet is a big help for me.
Mucho gracias:
Guy
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 7:42:25 PM
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| good time to do headstand is once a day in teh afternoon or evening near the end of asana practice and always followed by shoulderstand. the best thing that I can recommend is the book "Light On Yoga" by BKS Iyengar |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 01:30:24 AM
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Just don't do headstand after shoulderstand. That's important!
Me and Victor study the Iyengar method, which is all about proper alignment and details of body position (which is a great thing to learn....I've handled the energy changes from AYP much more easily because of the subtleties I've learned from Iyengar). There are Iyengar teachers all over the country. The book Victor recommended is the classic source, but a great book for beginners/intermediates is "Yoga the Iyengar Way". |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 01:59:48 AM
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hi guys,
I do headstand for about 5 mins every morning, for about 3 months. It's one of the best asanas in terms of the immediate feelings. Certainly can't say much about its long term effects, or how much it would help with the AYP pracices. (That I would like to know too)
Headstand helps a lot when I have insomnia (due to excessive worries and thinking). The method is to do it up to my limits (for me, it's about 10-15 mins) It seems to loosen the inner tension in my head. (may be by exhausting me )
The amount of blood flow(or the blood pressure) to the head is greater in headstand than in shoulderstand (you can test this on your own by the subvective feeling. That's also what some doctors said.) So it's more advanced, in terms of difficulty/precautions/effects. (well, the "effects" part is based on personal experiences and guessing....)
Doing some stretchings first will certainly help with headstand, but better not to do vigorous exercises like the vinyasa-type yoga before headstand, because the wastes produced during such exercises may be carried to your head. The asana "Peacock" is to be avoided also, since this asana is said to speed up the detoxification process. (more medical knowledge is needed to see whether it's really that inappropriate, because the blood will actually be filtered before going to the brain) |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Feb 20 2006 02:48:12 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 10:31:28 AM
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Hey Victor and Jim,
Headstand question here.
I started off doing headstands inspired by these posts, I think I may have been making a couple of mistakes after watching a Rodney Yee video. I noticed Rodney used his forearms and hands (palms down) having the length of the arm from elbow to finger tips on the ground as support for the head. I am pretty sure I had this wrong as I started with just palms on the ground to balance the head and I did it near a wall for support if I needed it. Should I be copying Rodney Yee on this?
Second as a warning for others, I got a little over-exuberant with this pose , never having done it before and had one of the worst cases of over-doing I have ever had in yoga.
Everything was fine for the first 4 or 5 days, I was gradually building up from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. Then after about 5 days, I started to develop a head-ache at the crown chakra and then the feeling of prana-burn crept in. I then stopped and without doing any more headstands, I had this painful feeling, like a lid on the top of my head was opened wide (I couldn't close it) and bright cosmic light was glaring down on my unexposed top of my brain. Ouch! I felt like I needed sun-block ! Lasted for 3 or 4 days too, even with full-on self-pacing.
A good warning to go slowly with this pose and I now have irrefutable proof that everything Yogani says about over-doing the crown chakra is true! It creeps up on you slowly, then all of a sudden wham, you are in trouble and it takes quite a while for it to simmer down, definitely no fun, but a great learning experience nevertheless!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 11:11:36 AM
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Palms not down. palms face the head. and what you're doing with the hands is real important...the way the fingers interlace, the angles of the wrists. Buy yourself "light on yoga" and "yoga the iyengar way" for more details.
Start against the wall. Not just as a safety crutch...the baseline of the wall will show you what your alignment's like and help you straighten out.
Yogani doesn't say not to overdo the crown. He says not to overdo ANYTHING (and not to so much as touch the crown, directly). And your ramp-up in this pose was drastic overdoing, regardless of crown issue. In this pose, it hit you this particular way, and you're lucky, because there are other poses where you could do yourself a serious injury. I'd strongly urge you to cut everything by a factor of about a million. I built up to a 90 minute daily asana practice over 20 years. That's very very gradual acceleration indeed!
FWIW, I've never heard of premature crown opening as a result of headstand. But I've also never heard of a newbie attempting a 90 second headstand. I built up to that over a year, and only increased my time (in increments of a few seconds) when everything felt really smooth. You were really forcing yourself in a grueling way to build the time so fast. I'd strongly caution you to NEVER do yoga (asana or otherwise) with that approach (again, regardless of crown involvement).
I really hope you're ok! Please keep us posted. If I were you, I'd strip down to nothing but pranayama and meditation, and maybe some very very lite asanas for a few weeks until things come under control. Perhaps months. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 02 2006 11:13:21 AM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 11:59:35 AM
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I'm confused about how you described Rodney doing headstand. I haven'ty seen the video but I know for a fact that Rodney knows how to do correct headstand. It sounds a bit more like forearm balance (Pincha Mayurasana) but in that pose the head is not on the floor. In classic headstand the crown of the head rests on the floor and the balance is over the head. This is certainly one pose that self pacing is very critical as it can definitely lead to headaches if overdone. Did you have a blanket under your head or did you just use a hard floor? You don't want too thick a pad but a floded blanket is very important just to lightly cusjion your head.
I practice this pose for 3 to 4 minutes at a stretch and that seems to be the absolute limit for me at this time and I am being very cautious about trying to lengthen that and am looking at the perspective of many years.
One thing that comes to mind is what poses did you do after headstand? Shoulderstand should always follow headstand and actually headstand should not be attempted until shoulderstand is comfortable and stable. Then little by little work on doing headstand up to the same timing as shoulderstand. I would certainly give headstand a rest until your symptoms subside and focus on shoulderstand. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 1:37:00 PM
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Every word Victor said is precisely right.
Anthem, where are you? can I get you a gift certificate for a couple classes with a good teacher? I'm a little concerned for you. Email me if you'd prefer. We want you feeling good! |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 8:15:11 PM
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Jim it looks like I got you pretty worked up, sorry about that, maybe my written description was a little too vivid, oops, though I stand by the open lid analogy! Remind me never to tell you about the time I rode my motorcycle without my helmet on!
Everything quickly returned to normal after an initial day and a half of prana burn. I was a little cloudy for a few days (how I always feel if I over-do head areas) but was back to normal after a few days of self-pacing. This isn't the first time I have had to self-pace nor will it likely be the last!
On a side note, you don't die from having too much prana activity at the crown, you just pay a price for it at least once kundalini is already active. If it weren't, I could imagine in the Gopi Krishna way how pre-mature crown opening could be very dangerous as it plows through everything inside. Keep in mind, all of us here at AYP are indirectly stimulating the crown all the time with regular practices.
Also Yogani doesn't say "never to over-do it or ever to go near the crown". He simply reminds us it isn't wise or enjoyable to over do it, (something we all learn quickly ourselves) and that stimulating the crown directly at the end of practices (something I don't currently do) is to be approached judiciously at the end of the journey. I don't think perpetuating fear about these things will do anyone any good.
I am no expert but I am fairly familiar with asanas. I have been doing ashtanga yoga with an excellent instructor for about 5 years, for the last year + I have been doing it pretty much every day. I am new however to most inverted poses other than shoulder stand and locus and wanted to start integrating them into my daily routine.
As I mentioned very new to head-stand, having just tried it recently so I wasn't sure how to progress. Clearly too much too fast, I will go a little slower. I was liking the strengthening affect it was having on the neck despite the incorrect technique, so got a little carried away.
Hey Victor, thanks for the advice, I did use padding and you are right I was just skimming through the video before trying it so when I described it I confused two poses. I see now that Rodney did forearm balance the way you describe and then head-stand. When he did headstand it was as Jim described with fingers inter-laced behind the head and now I notice he only puts his weight on the head at the last moment when everything is in place.
I didn't do shoulder-stand after head-stand as I only got to that part of the post later on but have added it in and haven't over-done it since.
Thanks for the advice. I will follow Rodney’s example and progress it more gradually going forward.
Anthem
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Maxim
Germany
1 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2007 : 08:23:42 AM
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I would like to add that there is a version of the "headstand" where you do not put much weight on the head at all.
You use a rolled up towel or a small but relatively taut pillow about 4-6 cm high, which you put under your head. Then you go into headstand triangular style, the pressure point being on the point where most people have their hair line and then you transfer 95% of the weight to the shoulders and the ellbows.
It´s like doing pincha majurasana, just with the head not hanging down completely.
The elevation under your head forces you to stretch out the shoulder joints and prevents a tensing up by default.
It is very easy on the neck, and very very good for the arms and back muscles, as they are forced to adjust to a whole new dimension of weight bearing. And it still bears all the benefits of a full inversion.
This is not a headstand that most can hold for longer than 2-3 minutes, but it is the safest way to learn it. As soon as I have a website, I will put up a picture of it online. |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2007 : 10:54:28 AM
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Guys...is this the posture called VIPARITA KIRANI?
this one is one I have steered clear of, once I was advised it is the one posture most likely to trigger a premature kindalini response, rather than doing it naturally and with self pacing.
I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts or experiences. |
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Headstand
