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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 3:16:26 PM
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Namaste All 
Just wondering about a phase I am going through in my meditation practices lately (I have a fairly well established routine going and have not added on anything new for a while) and if anyone has been through something similar and has any advice (other then favoring the mantra....this I understand  )
What is happening is:
I will have just finished my pranayam practice and will be moving into DM. I will introduce the mantra (have been using the third enhancement for a long time now), will repeat it effortlessly for a while (a couple of minutes or so), and then.....gone.....no one here, no thoughts, no experience, just pure nothingness. Then, after some time (usually around 5 minutes but it has been as long as 10 minutes before) I will notice that half the mind is in straight up dreamstate. This is different then having thoughts in meditation. The mind is not really "engaged". It is almost like my awareness is (at this time) split in two....one half is still absorbed in deep silence, and the other half is now observing these dreams. These dreams are not the mind engaging in thought, as the mind is simply observing them, but I will notice at some point that the mind has "split in two" and half is observing these dreams and the other half is absorbed in Silence still. I don't usually recognize the dreamstate right away though. It usually takes me a few minutes to realize that the mind has "split" and that half is now observing these "dreams" (I almost want to call them visions except they have no relevance to anything). I can usually recall (after the fact) what was observed in the dreams, (which is basically how I know that I have been dreaming for a few minutes..,...there is "dream progression") but I am not yet able to identify the moment when the mind "splits" and the dreams begin.
Anyone gone through anything like this before? I am not concerned, I know it is just a phase, but I would love any and all feedback regardless.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 21 2010 3:18:39 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 9:10:41 PM
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Hey Brother Carson,
I don't get this much any more, but for a while, I got it a lot.
I called them "dreamlets".
Experiencing this, we can begin to see how thinking and dreams are effectively the same type of consciousness: mental form.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 21 2010 9:10:59 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 11:33:35 PM
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Hi Carson :)
quote:
Anyone gone through anything like this before? I am not concerned, I know it is just a phase, but I would love any and all feedback regardless.
I went through something similar and was troubled by it for a few months, and on and off for a few years...
I wrote about a few times including here:
link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....age=10#67481
quote:
What happens to me is as the day wears on, for the second and third meditations, after a few minutes I am immersed in a sea of visions/thoughts/threads. Everywhere I look internally, there is some kind of lighted stream or filament of color that, if I follow it, leads to a vision or dream or some kind of scene. I notice this and return to the mantra but the mantra is very small and does not last long. When I extricate myself from one thread, there is another thread that grabs my attention. It is like jumping from one strand in the spider's web only to get caught in another.
When I think the mantra, it is as if a clear pool is disturbed for a second and then becomes clear again, but on the other side of the pool and surrounding everything everywhere, there are these strings of colorful light like mutliple spider webs that, even if I focus on one strand just for an instant, turns into a person, place, scene or other form. This has been going on for weeks. I've been trying to ignore the visions hoping to break through to inner silence but it's starting to bother me.
I haven't been troubled by it recently because I took some advice here on the forum (thank you everyone). My attempts to increase the vividness (as discussed with emc) did not work so great as it is not a 'laxity' problem.
link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=7833#69050
quote:
Now I think that when I have meditations where the mantra itself turns into visions and colored ribbons I'm experiencing a form of gross or subtle laxity, as you've pointed out. I did notice that I can crank up my vividness with much effort, and now I believe that that is what I should do when I hit this state.
Instead, I reversed the direction of my focus onto "Who is observing these phenomenon" rather than focusing on the forms when that happens.
One physical characteristic or sensation that you notice when you are about to descend into the dream state is that the outer body seems to dissolve away and there is a sinking sensation into the center of the head (feels like you are falling asleep .. ha ha). During meditation, if you keep the body very still and concentrated, it becomes easier and easier to notice. After going through that sinking feeling I realize that I'm a prime candidate for 'dreaming' or getting caught in sticky thoughts. It is at that point that I turn my attention around, fall backwards and try to sink into the looker. It's like you have to pull back. There is a sort of pool of luminous transparency there so I try to become the luminosity instead of trying to see through it.
I read in a few places that deep meditation is a journey passed normal consciousness, passed the dream state, passed the dreamless state and into superconsciousness. So meditation is remaining 'aware' while you go deeper through these states. One method of practicing remaining aware as you pass through the dream state is to 1) sit in your meditation posture, 2) Roll your eyes up, 3) relax your brow and 4) pretend like you are falling asleep, and 5) breathe like you are really sleeping. You put a certain pressure inwards from the brow and really pretend like you are falling asleep.
After I discovered that I could do that, I did it many times because I noticed that when I did that, a slice of the dream-state/visions would appear very quickly at the third eye area behind the brow. And it really felt like I was going to fall asleep, until one time, I fought the feeling and pulled my attention behind my neck/back and noticed that there was another part of me that was watching the whole thing. Then I discovered, at that point, if I didn't breathe out into the dream, I wouldn't get dragged into it. I could sit back and see various invitations to dreams, as many appear no matter where you look. So, at that point, to balance the dream state and stay out of the dreams, consciously take over your breathing and regulate it.
The thing that was appealing about similuating the sleep state like that was that it was very rapid: I could be in the dream state in under a minute. But if you go too far and simulate the sucking feeling down deeper into the medulla area, I often got nausea accompanied by a fear of dying and blacking out. So, you keep the sucking feeling nearer to the brow... and the dreams appear, the kundalini gets real active and if someone were to observe you, they would think that you were sleeping.
I don't do that practice much anymore because I have never gotten any feedback or read about that practice on any forum. And, if you do it too much, it becomes very hard to come back with normal consciousness; you become very groggy afterwards and it takes a while to be able to think straight after, just like being abruptly woken from a deep sleep. But that practice helped me identify the dream state, work with it and realize that there was something behind that was watching the whole thing.
Thank you for posting your experience. It is nice to read about someone else's experience with the dream state.
:)
TI
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 11:55:06 AM
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Hey Kirtanman, TI and All
@TI: From your description it sounds like we are experiencing two different things....perhaps because I am not as "aware" as you are during meditation, I don't know.
For me, what is going on is a complete loss of awareness after a few repetitions of the mantra....this eventually turns into a "split mind" thing where part of the mind is still absorbed in nothingness and the other part is observing "dreamstate". I am not conscious/aware when the mind splits and the dreams start. I just find that the mind has split (well after it has happened) and realize that I have been both "absorbed" and observing dreamstate for some time now.
If the "goal" of meditation is to remain aware as your mind passes through normal consciousness, dreamstate, dreamless state and then superconsciousness, well, then I guess I am no where near "the goal" hahahaha. I am not "aware" during much of my meditations (at least during this phase) and am pretty much "gone" for the majority of the 20 minutes I am meditating (and lately I have been finding myself going considerably overtime.....waking up/becoming aware again after 30/35 even 40 minutes).
Hopefully this clarifies a bit what I am going through.
Love!
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 10:56:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hey Kirtanman, TI and All
@TI: From your description it sounds like we are experiencing two different things....perhaps because I am not as "aware" as you are during meditation, I don't know.
For me, what is going on is a complete loss of awareness after a few repetitions of the mantra....this eventually turns into a "split mind" thing where part of the mind is still absorbed in nothingness and the other part is observing "dreamstate". I am not conscious/aware when the mind splits and the dreams start. I just find that the mind has split (well after it has happened) and realize that I have been both "absorbed" and observing dreamstate for some time now.
If the "goal" of meditation is to remain aware as your mind passes through normal consciousness, dreamstate, dreamless state and then superconsciousness, well, then I guess I am no where near "the goal" hahahaha. I am not "aware" during much of my meditations (at least during this phase) and am pretty much "gone" for the majority of the 20 minutes I am meditating (and lately I have been finding myself going considerably overtime.....waking up/becoming aware again after 30/35 even 40 minutes).
Hopefully this clarifies a bit what I am going through.
Love!
Hi Carson :)
I see. I thought you were more concerned about the dream state..
I can see now that you are more concerned about the blanking out.
Do you think you are simply falling asleep during meditation?
Also, do you ever or regularily have a few beers before meditation?
On the other side of that, sometimes I will hit a state where I have no awareness, and the only way I can tell that something happened is that 1) Some time went by (say 10 minutes or more) and, 2) I always see an outline of a fuzzy body surrounded in golden light as my consciousness returns. It seems to be a state where I can only remember returning from it. I too wonder what that is. Perhaps some of the enlightened folks here could explain that.. :)
Wait! I just found this interesting site that just might explain the experience (or lack of it)..
link: http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm
quote:
Stages 12 to 15
The knowledge of insight leading to the emergence (vitthanagamini-vipassana-nana) is the slide into the trap-door. It lasts only a few moments, during which time one of the three universal characteristics becomes dominant in the meditator’s mind. This characteristic is the "door" through which he enters nibbana. The universal characteristic which predominates during knowledge of insight leading to emergence will condition the meditator’s understanding of the dominant characteristic of nibbana.
The next two stages, knowledge of adaptation (anuloma-nana) and knowledge of connection (gotrabhu-nana) are momentary in the extreme. They may just be theoretical constructs to explain the sudden manifestation of the next stage, knowledge of path and result (maggaphala-nana). In practice, what happens is that the meditator is practicing, every aspect of his meditation is subtle, clear and bright, and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on. If the meditator checks the watch, he realises some time has passed - depending on the strength of his concentration, this could be anything from a few minutes to a few days and he has "awoken" suddenly into a situation in which the practice is continuing, but the experience is much less subtle than before. The meditator is now in the knowledge of arising and passing away (udayabbaya-nana).
16) Knowledge of review - paccavekkhana-nana
What happened? Has he fallen asleep? No, because of the suddenness and clarity of the beginning and end of the experience of unconsciousness, and because there has been absolutely no physical movement. What the meditator has experienced is the total cessation of the mind-body process. He did not "know" this while it was happening., because there was no sense of a mind to know it. All he "knows" about the experience is his reflection on what has just happened. This reflection is the final nana, the knowledge of review (paccavekkhana-nana).
The journey of Insight: from normal experience, to increasing subtlety of experience, to the most subtle experience of all - the cessation of experience.
That's a better explanation, isn't it?
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jun 23 2010 12:15:46 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 05:49:18 AM
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I was searching the web for explanation on TURIYATITA. Came across these lines on one link. Hope this is helpful.
Zen master Tai-yung, passing by the retreat of another Zen master named Chih-huang, stopped and respectfully asked, "I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi."
Huang replied, "When I enter into a Samadhi, I am not conscious of either condition." Yung said, "If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it."
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna...idakasa.html |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 10:57:52 AM
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Hi TI and thanks for continuing to engage in this with me _/\_
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I see. I thought you were more concerned about the dream state..
I can see now that you are more concerned about the blanking out.
Well, I wouldn't use the word "concerned", but more "curious". I am curious about both the "blanking out" as well as the "awaking in dreamstate after blanking out".
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Do you think you are simply falling asleep during meditation?
No, I don't think so. I am not the kind of guy to fall asleep sitting up. Just doesn't happen for me. Seems like the entire body and mind just seem to "shut off" for a while. And then the body/mind turns back on to an extent and enters dreamstate before the consciousness returns to the mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Also, do you ever or regularily have a few beers before meditation?
Definitely not regularly and I have not had a beer (never more then one) before practices in a very long time. I have in the past had a single beer before doing my practices (which start with asanas) but this is/was in no way a regular thing and I haven't done that for a long time. No pot either in case you are wondering
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
On the other side of that, sometimes I will hit a state where I have no awareness, and the only way I can tell that something happened is that 1) Some time went by (say 10 minutes or more) and, 2) I always see an outline of a fuzzy body surrounded in golden light as my consciousness returns. It seems to be a state where I can only remember returning from it. I too wonder what that is. Perhaps some of the enlightened folks here could explain that.. :)
Yes, this is essentially what is happening except that I don't see an outline of the body on returning but instead see the awareness observing dreamstate.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Wait! I just found this interesting site that just might explain the experience (or lack of it)..
link: http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm
quote:
Stages 12 to 15
The knowledge of insight leading to the emergence (vitthanagamini-vipassana-nana) is the slide into the trap-door. It lasts only a few moments, during which time one of the three universal characteristics becomes dominant in the meditator’s mind. This characteristic is the "door" through which he enters nibbana. The universal characteristic which predominates during knowledge of insight leading to emergence will condition the meditator’s understanding of the dominant characteristic of nibbana.
The next two stages, knowledge of adaptation (anuloma-nana) and knowledge of connection (gotrabhu-nana) are momentary in the extreme. They may just be theoretical constructs to explain the sudden manifestation of the next stage, knowledge of path and result (maggaphala-nana). In practice, what happens is that the meditator is practicing, every aspect of his meditation is subtle, clear and bright, and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on. If the meditator checks the watch, he realises some time has passed - depending on the strength of his concentration, this could be anything from a few minutes to a few days and he has "awoken" suddenly into a situation in which the practice is continuing, but the experience is much less subtle than before. The meditator is now in the knowledge of arising and passing away (udayabbaya-nana).
16) Knowledge of review - paccavekkhana-nana
What happened? Has he fallen asleep? No, because of the suddenness and clarity of the beginning and end of the experience of unconsciousness, and because there has been absolutely no physical movement. What the meditator has experienced is the total cessation of the mind-body process. He did not "know" this while it was happening., because there was no sense of a mind to know it. All he "knows" about the experience is his reflection on what has just happened. This reflection is the final nana, the knowledge of review (paccavekkhana-nana).
The journey of Insight: from normal experience, to increasing subtlety of experience, to the most subtle experience of all - the cessation of experience.
That's a better explanation, isn't it?
Yup. Nailed it. That's exactly what seems to be happening (minus the returning to find oneself observing dreamstate).
Thanks!
Love!
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Hitting Dreamstate in Deep Meditation
