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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 05:19:04 AM
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Can someone clarify for me what the legs are supposed to be doing in Cobra? The reason I ask is that this morning I was aware of my legs spreading out as I was holding the pose. I should mention that up until a few days ago I was doing Cobra without using the arms at all (half-cobra?) - and now I'm using the arms the bend is far greater, but I'm finding the feet and legs are spreading out - which they weren't doing (or not perceptibly) in the half-cobra. Should I be aiming to keep the legs and feet together?
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 1:05:05 PM
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Hi Amoux 
Here is a little clarification on how to properly do cobra pose....
In cobra pose there is little to no wieght held in the hands. The proper posture looks basically like this: http://ohmybikram.files.wordpress.c...obrapose.jpg
If you are using your arms to push your torso more upright then that is upward facing dog not cobra. Here is an image of what is labeled as cobra, but is actually an upward facing dog: http://www.alaskaartguild.com/Yoga/images/6.jpg
In cobra pose the legs should be firm, all muscles in the legs should be engaged, the tops of the feet should be pressing into the floor, and the legs should be together. In upward facing dog the legs should be about 6-12 inches apart or so.
Hope this helps!
Love!
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 2:08:48 PM
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Thanks, Carson 
It seems like I have morphed from cobra into upward dog, simply by adding the arms! I'll adjust the arm position as per the picture.
I have no asana teacher, and it's many years since I attended class (I live in 'the back of beyond') so I really appreciate your taking the time to answer this
Much love. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 3:22:03 PM
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| As far as I understand the main difference between Upward Dog and Cobra with the arms engaged is that in Upward Dog the knees lift off the floor and the legs are more actively engaged. In Cobra with active arms the knees are still on the floor and hips Drop down and forward. Its really mosty just a matter of semantics though since both variations are similar. There is also a variation of Cobra where the knees are bent and feet brought up to touch the head. The legs naturally will want to spread out a bit in any of these variations and that fine as this should be self correcting. Feet will not be togther and as Carson said about 6 to 12 inches apart is fine but if they spread apart a little wider I don't see any harm. Trying to keep the feet together is likely to restrict the ability to go deeply into the stretch in the pelvis. Perhaps some time later when the strecth has become easy you can then bring the feet closer to each other but I would not suggest that while still in the learning phase. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 3:28:47 PM
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Hi Victor
I've always been taught that in cobra the legs should be together....like a cobra tail. But that's just how I was taught, could be wrong.
Love!
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 4:39:36 PM
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A useful tip here that i just learnt recently regarding execution of bhujangasana is to begin engaging the paraspinal muscles of the lower back as you begin to move up rather than just relying on your arms to push yourself up and get into the pose.Sounds like that preceding practice shuld help then.
Try if for yourself and you will notice the difference. It means the muscles of the back are actually getting engaged and assisting with moving into this posture.The pubis touches the ground whee swadisthana chakra is.
I have actually seen a cobra with the legs wide open but i think they called it swan or some such thing. When i do it ,the legs remain on the ground like in upward-dog,rather than say balncing on the toes.
p.s Also another thing- the arms can be slightly bent( rather than straight) according to how high or how much of a back-bend you can attain.Here's a cobra pose video that might be of some help,i hope, in illustrating appropriate actions,and some of the points i have covered. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jun 14 2010 5:03:57 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 5:16:27 PM
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Hey Akasha
That video you posted is (at least according to those that have taught and certified me as an asana instructor) not performing cobra posture. The dude in that video is doing upward facing dog. In cobra posture there is little to no weight/pressure on the hands. It is the muscles in the lower back and the leverage of the legs that pull the upper torso off the floor. In cobra you can even take the hands and clasp them behind the back (while pulling the scapula closer together on the back) to open up the anahata chakra even more.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 14 2010 5:18:15 PM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 5:50:55 PM
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Hi Carson
How are ya doing?
I used to attend vinyasa classes, and upward dogs were like a bread and butter staple pose in their sequencing,possibly down to the ashtanga influence of the head teacher( reflected in his own personal practice- of course,people tend to teach what they practice themselves, i guess) although he was definitely still what you might call an 'alignment' teacher as his training also had the precision of iyengar too(although I still feel he is a bit too fast for me;one of his students i much preferred).Cobra rarely even got a look in.
quote:
In cobra posture there is little to no weight/pressure on the hands.
Thanks for the clarification.I think i've been practicing upward dog as if it was cobra for way too long.I've been using the arms to push myself up, and not engaging the back or using the legs as leverage as you very helpfully put it.
When i first learnt sun salutations i did an old fashioned (traditional hatha SS) kneel, then push upward into cobra( on the toes),after down dog, then, when i arrived at a studio some eleven months later, with one of my favourite teachers( not the head but iyengar training definitely in there) i noticed the students were doing lots of upward dog.Maybe the inclusion of cobra-pose one would slow down a vinyasa flow-style sequence.
As i say it is a pose i have rarely practiced but i should really do so i would imagine it to be one of the 12 classic asanas in sivananda hatha yoga.
Looks like i've been doing it wrong or not at all all these years and as a backbend it is a useful one.
I agree with you- there is a lot of conflicting informationo about practices on the net- this could be down to the school(emphases,variations and v clear differences) but it could also be simple and quite misleading mis-information as i just posted.
What usually gets me is the fact that folk may use different names for poses,issue different instructions or call a number of quite different things by the same name.
I'm with you completely; the dude in that video is not doing cobra pose, like you say. Using more or less exclusively the arms to rise up has been my cardinal mistake, i think.We've all got to learn somehow, i guess.
p.s In the classes i attended at the studio the head would teach endless down dogs,chataranga dandasana & then up-dogs-- it just went on and on.
I ended up feeling he taught this because it is what he largely practices himself(ashtanga iyengar you could call it).But i'm still not convinced it's everyone's fit. You might call me a spiritual junkie or shopper ,hehehe.
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Edited by - Akasha on Jun 14 2010 8:09:07 PM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 6:45:28 PM
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1. Upward dog and bhujangasana are often confused
2. What is termed cobra & bhujangasana( on the net at least) often has endless variations and often quite different poses altogether are referred to period.
3. I have re-read what you have written and i am sill not completely convinced by your point that it not bhujangasana. Perhaps i have missed something however. The feet are together not apart as in upward dog.The only thing i can think of that is not apparent from the video is how much that man is efforting with/from the arms.This seemed to be both our points,re-reading this thread again.
One thing remains- i have not personally been engaging the lower back muscles enough myself and efforting too much from the arms when i have attempted,( or practicing it enough ---with the appropriate actions! ,of course). There are I'm sure other points in my practice that have weaknesses.
Perhpas your point is that the degree to which the arms are used as well as a number of other details is what disintguishes up- dog from cobra.
If the feet are generally apart in upward dog, then how can that be updog?
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Edited by - Akasha on Jun 14 2010 8:10:00 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2010 : 8:16:44 PM
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Hi Akasha
I am doing wonderfully (thank you) and am very much enjoying fatherhood so far.... more love and joy in my life now then I have ever experienced before. 
The main thing that differentiates cobra from updog is how much the arms are used. The legs can be either together or spread a bit in both postures (although the "correct" cobra posture is with the legs together, or at least that is how I was taught). If you are pushing up with your arms, that is updog. If you are pulling the torso up using the back muscles and the leverage from having the legs engaged, then that is cobra. There may be some slight overlap between the two, and I don't think it really matters all that much, but since we are talking about the specifics, this is how I have been taught, and how I have seen others teach it as well (from many different traditions). The dude in the video is most definitely doing updog and not cobra as far as I am concerned. Never seen someone go that far up using just the back muscles.
Now, with that said, there is a posture called KING Cobra, which is what Victor described when talking about touching the feet to the back of the head. This is essentially updog with the legs bending so that the feet touch the back of the head....perhaps this is where a lot of the naming confusion comes from?
Love!
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 05:16:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
In cobra you can even take the hands and clasp them behind the back (while pulling the scapula closer together on the back) to open up the anahata chakra even more.
Hi Carson - yes, this is what I was doing - I've been practising cobra for about three months now, and I was getting quite a deep backbend in the pose - then watched a Mark Whitwell video the other day, where he specified using the arms, not to lift, but more in a supporting role. I was a little concerned about damaging my neck in cobra (no actual problems, but there was definitely strain in the back of the neck) so I thought ahah! - using the arms will support the neck. I also found that I wasn't getting the feeling of stretch in the lower back that I had initially felt when I started with cobra, so using the arms has allowed me to feel that 'creative stretching' going on again. However, probably I'm actually using the arms too much - certainly the hip bones are coming up off the floor and the front pelvis is lifting too when I use the arms. So I'll dial back a notch or three on the arms and see how it goes.
Many thanks to everyone for the information. The number of variations on cobra pose available on the web, alone, are somewhat bewildering
I have a 'trick' right hip that has a slight right on right anterior sacral torsion, so cobra is a good pose for me to focus on proper alignment - and maybe upward dog would also be good for this. So I'm just thinking I may practice both - which will at least allow me to 'feel' the difference in the body between the two. Incidentally, there was one video I watched which suggested that hand position is relevant - in upward dog the hands are under the shoulders, whereas in cobra, the hand are further forward. Any thoughts on this? |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 07:35:02 AM
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Hi Carson,
Good to hear life is treating you alright. I'm happy for you.
In upward dog,it's just the back of the feet that are typically touching the ground, as Victor pointed out, and the feet and legs are also spaced apart,not together. In cobra the pubis , (and therefore the legs onwards)swadistahana chakra ideally touches the ground.
But i agree with you engaging the back muscles and using the legs for leverage assist with the back bend and relying less on efforting with the arms. The bhujangasana i practice the arms can assist with the posture, and yeah sure there is a cobra where the arms are not employed at all.
If you could'nt use some effort with the arms, it could be too much for the lower back.
I have started practicing it this way-
I just engage the parapspinal/lower back muscles as i begin to initiate the movement,legs & feet together,then the arms slightly placed forward and bent can begin to assist with the back bend.But the bentness of the arms as isay can depend on high or how much of a backbend,i.e how flexible, the student is capable of.
Also i think Victor is right when if the body is 'nt open or flexible enough then it is a lot wiser to modify the pose than try to aim for an idealised posture.Sound Alignement must also be paired with appropriate actions, otherwise you risk yourself an injury.
I think it's a pose that probably is'nt taught in classes enough,because too many instructors teahc a kind of flow yang yoga where you don't spend quite enough time in a pose or entering and exiting it to actually be able to sense what is going on internally.Therefore i think alot of these kinds of classes are missing something.
This is , to me updog Urdhva Mukha Svanasana.
It is just semantics, but the legs touching the ground ideally all the way to the the pubis is one type of cobra. Another which i've been told is part of the traditional hatha(old-fashioned )sun salutations where the legs and the toes are touching the ground and the lower buttock and hips are also to the floor.Unless the spine is very flexible the arms will remain slightly bent.
I'll quote you relevant portion of text you from a book i've got- a respected authority-'Asana,Pranayam,Mudra &Bandha' one version of bhujangasana-
Bhujangasana (cobra pose)
"Slowly raise the head neck and h shoulders.Strightening the elbows, raise the trunk as high a possible.
Use the back muscles more than the arm muscles.
Be aware of using the back muscles first while starting to raise the trunk.Then use the arm muscles to raise the trunk further to arch the back.Gnetly tilt the head backwards so that the chin points forward and the back of the neck is compressed.In the final position the pubic bone remains in contact with the ground and the navel is rasied to a maximum of 3cm.If teh navel is raised too high the bend tends to be in the knees and not the back.The arms may or may not be straight.This depends on the flexibility of the back...
If that was urdvha mukha svanasana in the video i posted here,i would expect both to see:-
1) the legs suspended off the ground, & the back of the feet resting on the ground
& 2) & the also legs slightly apart. I have observed in students quite varying distances from really wide apart to somewhat less.
And i don't see that.
This naming confusion that probably plasters the internet, because i remember researching it a while back ,obviously helps no one.Confusion between Upward dog and cobra is probably the biggest one out there.
Victor- i'm with you ;it's just semantics.And as for King Cobra,well that sounds like a version of Cobra to me,given that it is more of a back-bend and the hips are in touch with ground-not so with urdha Urdhva Mukha Svanasana. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 11:53:08 AM
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Hey Amoux
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
I was a little concerned about damaging my neck in cobra (no actual problems, but there was definitely strain in the back of the neck) so I thought ahah! - using the arms will support the neck.
If you are straining your neck in cobra, then I suggest using upward facing dog as a replacement for cobra in your sequence, at least until your neck is sufficiently flexible to the point where you don't feel strain when doing cobra.
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
I also found that I wasn't getting the feeling of stretch in the lower back that I had initially felt when I started with cobra, so using the arms has allowed me to feel that 'creative stretching' going on again.
Just FYI, cobra is not meant for stretching out the back muscles. As far as muscular stretching goes, cobra is meant to open the chest, lungs, shoulders and stomach muscles. It will STRENGTHEN back muscles, but it will not stretch them. Here is the list of benefits for cobra posture that is listed on the yoga journal link that Akasha posted above:
Benefits
•Strengthens the spine
•Stretches chest and lungs, shoulders, and abdomen
•Firms the buttocks
•Stimulates abdominal organs
•Helps relieve stress and fatigue
•Opens the heart and lungs
•Soothes sciatica
•Therapeutic for asthma
•Traditional texts say that Bhujangasana increases body heat, destroys disease, and awakens kundalini.
Nothing about stretching the back muscles because essentially you are TIGHTENING the back muscles with cobra posture. There is more stretching of the back muscles in upward facing dog then there is in cobra posture but in general the back is stretched more with forward bends and twists then it is in a back bend.
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
However, probably I'm actually using the arms too much - certainly the hip bones are coming up off the floor and the front pelvis is lifting too when I use the arms. So I'll dial back a notch or three on the arms and see how it goes.
The hip bones should stay in contact with the floor in cobra posture.
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Many thanks to everyone for the information. The number of variations on cobra pose available on the web, alone, are somewhat bewildering
Yeah agreed. It often depends on the tradition you are learning asanas from as to how you will be taught to do a posture and what it will be called. For example, how one does trikonasana in Hatha Yoga compared to how one does trikonasana in Bikrams Yoga is COMPLETELY different. But they are both called Trikonasana.
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
I have a 'trick' right hip that has a slight right on right anterior sacral torsion, so cobra is a good pose for me to focus on proper alignment - and maybe upward dog would also be good for this. So I'm just thinking I may practice both - which will at least allow me to 'feel' the difference in the body between the two.
Yup. I think this would be a very good way to physically feel in your own body the differences between the two postures. It's all fine and dandy for others to say that "these are the benefits of this or that posture", when in reality, everyone has a(t least a slightly) different anatomical structure, so each posture is going to be a little different for everyone. There is no absolute right way to do any posture, every individual's "perfect posture" will be at least slightly different from others.
quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Incidentally, there was one video I watched which suggested that hand position is relevant - in upward dog the hands are under the shoulders, whereas in cobra, the hand are further forward. Any thoughts on this?
My thoughts are that this is the exact opposite of how it is, hahaha Updog should have the hands under the shoulders yes, but in cobra, the hands should be parallel with the chest...the thumbs should be pointing inward and they should be in line with the nipples (I guess that is only really totally relevant with a male though....this may not be an accurate reference for a female with a larger chest). Which means that the hands are slightly more forward in updog then in cobra. Again, just how I was taught and not necessarily what is "right". 
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 15 2010 11:54:45 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 12:31:07 PM
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Hey Akasha
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Good to hear life is treating you alright. I'm happy for you.
Thank you for your appreciative joy my brother 
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
In upward dog,it's just the back of the feet that are typically touching the ground, as Victor pointed out, and the feet and legs are also spaced apart,not together. In cobra the pubis , (and therefore the legs onwards)swadistahana chakra ideally touches the ground.
In cobra, the pelvis should stay on the floor. In updog the pelvis (and the thighs/knees/etc) can lift off the floor if the practitioner is sufficiently flexible. Not everyone will be though, so it is not always best to point to this as how to distiguish cobra from updog. Meaning, you can still do updog with the pelvis touching the floor.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
But i agree with you engaging the back muscles and using the legs for leverage assist with the back bend and relying less on efforting with the arms.
In cobra you are essentially balancing on the lower abdomen, which is why in the benefits I listed to Amoux above (the ones taken from your link to the yoga journal article) it says "Stimulates the abdominal organs"....when you balance on (put pressure on) the abdomen it will stimulate the abdominal organs.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
The bhujangasana i practice the arms can assist with the posture, and yeah sure there is a cobra where the arms are not employed at all.
Yup. It all depends on what the practitioner is:
1.capable of and
2.looking for benefit-wise.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
If you could'nt use some effort with the arms, it could be too much for the lower back.
Personally I do cobra posture without any arm effort at all. I clasp my hands behind my back and lift them as far off the back as possible (which really opens up the chest/anahata chakra) while I lift the torso off the floor using only lower back strength and leverage from my legs. And it is not too much for my lower back. Each practitioner will have their own "perfect posture" depending on their individual anatomy and their inner (and outer) obstructions.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I have started practicing it this way-
I just engage the parapspinal/lower back muscles as i begin to initiate the movement,legs & feet together,then the arms slightly placed forward and bent can begin to assist with the back bend.But the bentness of the arms as isay can depend on high or how much of a backbend,i.e how flexible, the student is capable of.
Sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Also i think Victor is right when if the body is 'nt open or flexible enough then it is a lot wiser to modify the pose than try to aim for an idealised posture.Sound Alignement must also be paired with appropriate actions, otherwise you risk yourself an injury.
Absolutely. I would never have suggested otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I think it's a pose that probably is'nt taught in classes enough,because too many instructors teahc a kind of flow yang yoga where you don't spend quite enough time in a pose or entering and exiting it to actually be able to sense what is going on internally.
Cobra (and updog) are taught in just about every class I've ever attended. Almost any class that does a vinyasa style of flow will have updogs (in their sun salutations) and most classes include cobra in their floor sequence, usually followed by salabasana (locust pose).
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Therefore i think alot of these kinds of classes are missing something.
Yeah, Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing Pranayam (hahahaha)
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
This is , to me updog Urdhva Mukha Svanasana.
Yeah that's an okay picture of updog. I would personally correct this lady's posture by telling her to look more at the ceiling though as she is not opening the throat much in this expression of this posture. Here is a picture of me doing updog: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...id=652785382
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I'll quote you relevant portion of text you from a book i've got- a respected authority-'Asana,Pranayam,Mudra &Bandha' one version of bhujangasana-
Bhujangasana (cobra pose)
"Slowly raise the head neck and h shoulders.Strightening the elbows, raise the trunk as high a possible.
Use the back muscles more than the arm muscles.
Be aware of using the back muscles first while starting to raise the trunk.Then use the arm muscles to raise the trunk further to arch the back.Gnetly tilt the head backwards so that the chin points forward and the back of the neck is compressed.In the final position the pubic bone remains in contact with the ground and the navel is rasied to a maximum of 3cm.If teh navel is raised too high the bend tends to be in the knees and not the back.The arms may or may not be straight.This depends on the flexibility of the back...
Sure. This differs from how I was taught to do (and teach) cobra (and I'm a YA certified Hatha instructor), but there are lots of variations of every posture and a how a posture is taught usually depends on the instructor's personal practice and how they like to do the posture themselves. One doesn't negate the other in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
If that was urdvha mukha svanasana in the video i posted here,i would expect both to see:-
1) the legs suspended off the ground, & the back of the feet resting on the ground
When you say "back of the feet" you mean the tops of the feet right? And as I said to Amoux, the amount that the legs and pelvis lift off the floor in Updog will depend on the flexibility of the practitioner. You can do Updog with the entire pelvis touching the floor.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
& 2) & the also legs slightly apart. I have observed in students quite varying distances from really wide apart to somewhat less.
Yes, the distance between the legs is not a determining factor in whether one is doing cobra or updog. They can both be done both ways depending on what benefits one is looking for in the posture.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
This naming confusion that probably plasters the internet, because i remember researching it a while back ,obviously helps no one.Confusion between Upward dog and cobra is probably the biggest one out there.
It's really very minor and not worth (in my opinion) the amount of time we are spending on it. Do what feels right for you and then move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Victor- i'm with you ;it's just semantics.And as for King Cobra,well that sounds like a version of Cobra to me,given that it is more of a back-bend and the hips are in touch with ground-not so with urdha Urdhva Mukha Svanasana.
Here is a picture of Raja Bhujangasana (aka King Cobra/Royal Cobra posture) http://www.elbolsonyoga.com.ar/boxe...ANGASANA.JPG .... And remember, one can do Urdhva Mukha Svanasana with the hips still touching the ground...it all depends on the flexibility of the practitioner. But really, there is no point in arguing about this stuff. It really makes no difference how one person does cobra or updog, and it makes no difference what one calls any specific posture. Lets each just do our postures, pranayam and meditation, and then go out and live our lives, sharing the blessings we have received through our practices.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 15 2010 1:58:03 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 4:01:56 PM
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In Light On Yoga by Iyengar the arms are fully involved in the lift of cobra pose. The feet are indeed together. I have just found that it is more difficult to go deeply into the pose this way until quite advanced so having the feet somewhat apart is a useful modification while learning.
"1. Lie on the floor face downwards, extend the legs, keeping the feet together. Keep the knees tight and the toes pointing.
2. Rest the palms by the side of the pelvis region.
3.Inhale,press the palms firmly on the floor and pull the trunk up. Take two breaths.
4. Inhale, lift the body up from the trunk until the pubis is in contact with the floor and stay in this position with the weight on the legs and palms.
5. Contract the anus and the buttocks, tighten the thighs."
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 4:11:52 PM
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Thank you Victor - those are really clear instructions
I shall try this out in my asana practice tomorrow. |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 9:13:17 PM
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Hi amoux,
Looks like we cross-posted
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
In cobra you can even take the hands and clasp them behind the back (while pulling the scapula closer together on the back) to open up the anahata chakra even more.
quote:
Hi Carson - yes, this is what I was doing(cobra without the arms employed at all,just like Carson does it) - I've been practising cobra for about three months now, and I was getting quite a deep backbend in the pose - then watched a Mark Whitwell video the other day, where he specified using the arms, not to lift, but more in a supporting role.
Yes the arms can have a supportive role and assist with the backbend in bhujangasana.
quote:
I was a little concerned about damaging my neck in cobra (no actual problems, but there was definitely strain in the back of the neck) so I thought ahah! - using the arms will support the neck.
Relax the shoulders & neck- ie. let them drop down.(The chest may open more, i guess)
quote:
I also found that I wasn't getting the feeling of stretch in the lower back that I had initially felt when I started with cobra, so using the arms has allowed me to feel that 'creative stretching' going on again.
The stretch is in the abdomen(muscles & visceral organs),not the back or lumbar region..It's more likely though that a benefit of cobra here is that the back here is strengthened.And strengthening a muscle can make it tighter ( depending on the type of contraction).
quote:
However, probably I'm actually using the arms too much - certainly the hip bones are coming up off the floor and the front pelvis is lifting too when I use the arms. So I'll dial back a notch or three on the arms and see how it goes.
This is fine. Do whatever you find/feel is comfortable. But it's starting to sound like upward-dog to me- but what's in a name?- not much really
quote:
I have a 'trick' right hip that has a slight right on right anterior sacral torsion, so cobra is a good pose for me to focus on proper alignment - and maybe upward dog would also be good for this
.
In that case ,you could follow Victor's suggesstion that if the pelvis is not open enough (in cobra) then widening the legs & feet,as in up-dog, might be more appropriate- a suitable modification if your pelvis or another area is too tight/insufficiently flexible.
quote:
Incidentally, there was one video I watched which suggested that hand position is relevant - in upward dog the hands are under the shoulders, whereas in cobra, the hand are further forward. Any thoughts on this?
I would say this is how i am currently practicing .Though there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer as it could depend on the school, the teacher and the intention(expected or targeted benefits) of any given practice.
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I hope that's confused matters -----only kidding.
But just to clarify, in my view,opinion
1) The pubis ideally or the pelvis and orlegs touch the ground in bhujanagasana/cobra
2) In urdha mukha svanasana/updog the hips/pelvis are off the ground the weight is resting on the hands and arms, and the fronts of the feet are resting on the ground.
My tip for bhujangasana is to initiate begining to enter the pose with the para-vertebral muscles(lower lumbar muscles that run the length either side) and then if you like or is necessary assist with the arms also(stage 2 ,, if you like).Try it for yourself and notice the difference!!! But i am inclined to agree with the quote i pulled that it is the back and not the arms that are/can be more engaged.This turns it more into a conscious backbend and i think requires a deeper backbend rather than updog where gravity is assisting somewhat more with any suspension going on, and the hands and fronts of the feets are the only points of contact(ideally). Cobra also necesssitate a somehwat deeper back-bend than updog,specifically the lower back as the legs should be straight, the top of the pelvis pointing upwards(pubis,bottom-most pt. of pelvis, gently in contact with the floor),arms slightly bent,fingers splayed like a duck as usual, but maybe more in front ,depndiing on what is comfortable. I would say the bentness of the arms should probably depend on the flexibility of the back,depending on the practitoner and their unique individual anatomy & obstructions etc, as always .
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Edited by - Akasha on Jun 16 2010 12:10:48 AM |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2010 : 05:22:33 AM
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Nailed it! (The difference betwen the two poses, I mean ) Thanks so much guys.
Doing cobra, i engaged the arms at stage 2, kept the legs together, then back bend was fine, and I couldn't over-extend because of the leg position. So I have a far clearer idea of how it 'should' feel.
Doing upward dog, I was aware of the completely different feel of the pose in the front of the body (and the back too, come to that). Hips, pelvis and legs came up smoothly, with just fronts of feet on the mat.
I like both poses, and will continue to practice both.
Incidentally, the 'stretching' in the lower back that I was feeling may not be 'stretching' as such - it's more a sensation of a shiver running up the spine - and entirely pleasurable
Akasha - great tip about relaxing shoulders and neck. I'd done my asana practice this morning, read that and tried cobra again - my shoulders were definitely on the tensed side, and when I relaxed them I could feel the neck relax back too. Thanks! |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2010 : 1:30:42 PM
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Hi Amoux & everybody,
Great teamwork here!
I agree that BKS Iyengar: Light on Yoga, and Swami Satyananda: Asana, Pranayama, Mudra & Bandha, are excellent asana/Bhujangasana references.
Generally the older we grow, the more the coccyx vertebrae mineralize and grow together (and the harder the work needed in backbends). If you're 30++ and still keep the legs together, it's a good trick to keep the big toes together but not the heels, rotating the straight legs slightly inward (Iyengar's setu bandha) to keep the buttocks apart, thereby making room for the coccyx to move down toward the mat, keeping the lower spine from over-bending.
In both Bhujangasana and Urdhva Mukha Svanasana, most people over-bend in the lower spine and the neck but bend far too little between the shoulderblades - therefore, to get the bend exactly there, the arms can pull the Anahata region slightly forward (very useful in Tantrist yoga, to open up Anahata). That's why some schools prefer to demonstrate Bhujangasana with elbows bent, as Carson pointed out, because this forward pull is easier to perform and to feel with bent elbows. Straightened arms ( & shoulders down, away from the ears) on the other hand make it easier to visualize inhaling air between the vertebrae to elongate the spine. IMO., nothing wrong with variation. Neither on the mat (asana) nor off the mat (Tantra). |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2010 : 3:13:54 PM
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Hey HathaTeacher!
Was wondering when you would chime in here...thanks!
quote:
If you're 30++ and still keep the legs together, it's a good trick to keep the big toes together but not the heels, rotating the straight legs slightly inward (Iyengar's setu bandha) to keep the buttocks apart, thereby making room for the coccyx to move down toward the mat, keeping the lower spine from over-bending.
Are you familiar with Anusara Yoga's "Universal Principles of Alignment"? What you are describing in the quote above is essentially "Inner and Outer Spiral". Just curious about how familiar you are with the Alignment principles from Anusara Yoga.
Love!
P.S. I know that I have a pretty inflexible thoracic region and have been working on this area for a while now (which actually caused some overload symptoms not so long ago as I ended up getting some anahata openings that became excessive) and am wondering if you have any spcific posture recommendations for gaining increased flexibility in the thoracic vertabrae? Thanks for any advice! |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 17 2010 3:17:35 PM |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2010 : 04:57:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by HathaTeacher
Generally the older we grow, the more the coccyx vertebrae mineralize and grow together (and the harder the work needed in backbends). If you're 30++ and still keep the legs together, it's a good trick to keep the big toes together but not the heels, rotating the straight legs slightly inward (Iyengar's setu bandha) to keep the buttocks apart, thereby making room for the coccyx to move down toward the mat, keeping the lower spine from over-bending.
Hi Hatha Teacher - many thanks for this. At 50+, I was amused to notice this morning (having read this last night), that the heels are indeed NOT together The big toes, however, are. So now the aim is to contract anus and buttocks - but also rotate the legs in to keep the buttocks apart? This will be interesting ... |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 11:59:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
...At 50+, I was amused to notice this morning (having read this last night), that the heels are indeed NOT together The big toes, however, are. So now the aim is to contract anus and buttocks - but also rotate the legs in to keep the buttocks apart? This will be interesting ...
Hi Amoux,
Yoga as 1% theory and 99% percent practice...
I'd suggest you use those 2 as separate techniques (contraction or rotation), both are intended to protect the lower spine. Setu bandha is an activation (not tense) & moderate inward rotation, especially on the front (knees & thighs) and is quite 'reusable' (in some backbends, inversions, leg balances). |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 2:03:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
1) ...above is essentially "Inner and Outer Spiral". Just curious about how familiar you are with the Alignment principles from Anusara Yoga.
Love!
P.S.
2) I know that I have a pretty inflexible thoracic region and have been working on this area for a while now (which actually caused some overload symptoms not so long ago as I ended up getting some anahata openings that became excessive)
3) and am wondering if you have any spcific posture recommendations for gaining increased flexibility in the thoracic vertabrae? Thanks for any advice!
1) Yes, mostly the inner spiral. I haven't attended workshops with J.F. himself but with two people who had their Teacher Training from him, so IMHO. it sounds like an add-on to alignment in Astanga (Iyengar, Jois). Energy (muscular/inward & organic/outward) and Grace in Anusara adds a tantra flavor to it.
2) Not very surprising because almost everybody has, from rock/jazz professionals or hospital staff through to white-collar workers, and me too. Especially taller people who weren't given the oportunity to stand out while they grew up and were asked to stay in-line... That said, self-pacing is as useful as elsewhere. Even if you feel like moving faster, it's a good idea to combine techniques to a work-around, instead of just pushing through the backbends at all costs (although some Anusara practitioners tend to do that). That's one of the ideas behind Vinyasa, postures enhancing each other in a chain.
3) I wish I had THE Thoracic Silver Bullet apart fom repeated self-paced training and the hathayoga package of bend - opposite bend - side bend - twist, with breathing.
To get the bend to the right spot (Anahata):
- the serpent variation you mentioned here: fingers interlaced, arms straight behind the back pull the shoulders and thoracic spine backward (looking forward)
- fish (Matsyasana), with elbows close to each other under the spine, expanding the chest in all directions but mostly upward, almost 'eating' air/prana/life in long, dedicated, ever-deeper inhalations
- low cobra (Bhujangasana), standing on your lowest rib, facing slightly upward, then lifting the palms and elbows a litle off the ground, then putting them back but still using the spinal muscles and having the hands pull the Anahata-region forward (rather than lifting).
- bow (Dhanurasana), using the legs to pull the core up and experimenting with your individual griping point on the ankles to get a similar sensation in the thoracic region as during the low cobra. Self pacing ('quads' are stronger than other muscles).
- spinal twists (similarly, twisting less in the neck and more in the thoracic vertebrae): Ardha Matsyendrasana (all leg variations), Bharavajrasana (I prefer a completely straight spine to half lotus), Marichyasana variation C. Inhalations extend the spine up, exhalations twist another 0.1 inch further.
- twists, lying on on your back, either static (legs once to each side), or dynamic (Nakrakriya) in the pace of the breath with exh. to the side, inh. legs to middle.
- 'non-asanas' for anahata
beeja (Yam), organ of sense (touch), organ of action (hands/arms) embracing the Shakti and the world, free will able to oppose the dictates of fate.
But even if there were hundreds of those, there's no hurry/no straining, the Iyengar (or Sivananda) 'anahata' cobra seems to take a few lifetimes anyway |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 2:34:44 PM
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Thanks for this HathaTeacher
Wish you had THE Thoracic Silver Bullet too ....guess I'll just have to continue as I am....slowly, hahaha
Love!
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Cobra pose
