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djey308
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - May 26 2010 : 6:06:50 PM
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i have some questions about the effectiveness of this method of yoga versus something like vipassana, aka insight or mindfulness meditation. in the latter, the breath is the focus of the meditation, and this dulls down all the thoughts. as we all know, I AM is the focus here, which pushes errant thoughts to the backdrop.
i have two questions.
first: how does focusing on a mantra, which is a thought of the mind, when the goal is to quiet the mind of thoughts, more effective than focusing on the breath, which is not forced? in a nutshell: is thinking the mantra more effective than simply and only watching the breath and other thoughts?
second: is the enlightenment at the end of both of these paths the same? or do they have different flavors? it seems there are ecstatic experiences on all paths to enlightenment, but is the result the same? (because frankly AYP sounds much more exciting and controlled, while vipassana sounds dull, yet quite speedy and effective.)
oh yes, and the other major thing was that the effects of vipassana seems to be more easily integrated into day-to-day life, and AYP effects seems to be designated to the time on the cushion (so far). do the effects of AYP practice slowly creep in? (i have only been practicing since January, so i have many questions, naturally.) |
Edited by - djey308 on May 26 2010 6:38:47 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2010 : 5:03:58 PM
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Hi Djey308,
Mantra based meditation can go deeper than breath based mediatation, because, when the breath suspends, or the physical world is transcended, the breath is lost, whereas the mantra is not. There is another powerful advantage of mantra meditation over breathing meditation, which is that mantras carry vibrational qualities which have a purifying effect on the subtle level.
And yes, the effects of practicing AYP begin to flow over into daily life, just as the effect of breathing meditation or vipassana does.
Christi |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2010 : 4:07:36 PM
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Hi DJey,
- yes, in the end, they do; but they take a slightly different trail to the top. Although you might find tantric meditations a little more complicated, their key idea is to tame and utilize sexual energy (Kundalini) to do the work for you.
However, closer to the top, there are old tantric techniques similar to 'upper-end' Zazen (a meditation without any object of meditation whatsoever); tattva shudhi (the cleansing of the elements, turning all elements into ashes) usually includes steps during meditation that go from 'space' to emptiness to beyond emptiness.
AYP is more mainstream, emphasizing a technique likely to work fine in daily self practice without a teacher.
The late Swami Satyananda wrote that what Hindu yogis call samadhi is practically the same as what Tantra yogis call Kundalini awakening - only the path to it is different.
To my understanding, there's nothing wrong with going for the technique you've already mastered. In any meditation, it's key to keep the meditation process going even when (especially when) the ego is numbed off; this doesn't become easier by swapping technique back and forth, does it? |
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djey308
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2010 : 01:39:20 AM
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| wow, thank you for taking the time to post a response. that answered what i needed to know. incidentally, bhakti was never a problem, but these answers helped clear out unrealized obstructions. namaste. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2010 : 9:17:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by HathaTeacher
The late Swami Satyananda wrote that what Hindu yogis call samadhi is practically the same as what Tantra yogis call Kundalini awakening - only the path to it is different.
That doesn't sound correct, not that I'm worthy to contradict a famous Swami, of course. Samadhi in its various forms is primarily a change in one of the four primary "sheaths" of the body, the conscious part. Buddhi? Anyway, whereas K awakening is more of a pscho-physiological change that may or may not effect the buddhi and produce the same states as Samadhi. In fact, as Lee Sanella (sp?) found, the K process may not produce any form of transcendence, but has a potential to induce psychosis. This is why we may find yogis or psychic people exhibiting K phenomena and ability to induce shakipat who later turn out to be just plain deviant.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2010 : 08:05:39 AM
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My understanding is that the Mantra avoids that effect of dulling the mind, thoughts are accepted and even attended to, but with the focus being the Mantra.
It seems more about controlling the thoughts than having zero thoughts. Breathing is a thought, it's just more autonomous and when the meditation stops, the thoughts rush back in to fill the void with less control.
I might be way off target with these idea. In all probability it doesn't really matter what technique is used (or even none at all), it's the desire and constant repetition/devotion that brings the changes. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2010 : 1:11:06 PM
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| The path is to first become enlightened, by distinguishing clarity from mind. Then use yoga to obtain omniscience. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2010 : 9:32:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jo-self
quote:
Originally posted by HathaTeacher
The late Swami Satyananda wrote that what Hindu yogis call samadhi is practically the same as what Tantra yogis call Kundalini awakening - only the path to it is different.
That doesn't sound correct, not that I'm worthy to contradict a famous Swami
Hi Jo-Self & HathaTeacher,
I agree with your comment in general, Jo-self: Kundalini Awakening and Samadhi are not at all the same thing.
In fact, most yogic and tantric traditions would say that the process of Kundalini Awakening culminates in permanent Samadhi (abiding non-dual awareness).
More simply put, Kundalini Awakening usually refers to the beginning of the process, and Samadhi (the highest levels of Samadhi; abiding non-dual awareness) the end, as far as knowing our true nature, and living from our true nature.
I'd be interested if someone has a reference to the Satyananda quote; I can't imagine a swami saying that (not to contradict you, Hatha Teacher ... I just mean it literally: I can't imagine it .... and would just be interested in seeing the applicable quote).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 05:51:10 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
I'd be interested if someone has a reference to the Satyananda quote; I can't imagine a swami saying that (not to contradict you, Hatha Teacher ... I just mean it literally: I can't imagine it .... and would just be interested in seeing the applicable quote).
He wrote it in his book called Kundalini Tantra. He was talking about an advanced stage of the kundalini awakening process where the kundalini energies move up beyond the ajna chakra and come to rest in the sahasrar, bringing about samadhi. He was saying that at the culmination of the kundalini process, kundalini and samadhi are the same thing:
"From here, energies fuse and flow together to sahasrara, where enlightenment unfolds. Kundalini awakening and samadhi are the same thing. If you understand the teachings of the Buddha and other great saints and teachers, you will find that they have all spoken about the same thing but in different languages." [Satyananda]
Christi |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 6:46:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
"From here, energies fuse and flow together to sahasrara, where enlightenment unfolds. Kundalini awakening and samadhi are the same thing. If you understand the teachings of the Buddha and other great saints and teachers, you will find that they have all spoken about the same thing but in different languages." [Satyananda]
Christi
Still sounds incorrect. Anyway, just cause its written down doesn't mean its correct in absolute terms, sometimes its just to emphasize a point, etc. Also, sages have been uninformed. I remember reading a book where the greatest sage of all wrote that scorpions are transformed cow dung. Yeah, access to the "home of knowledge".
I like the phrase "If you understand the teachings of the Buddha and other saints and teachers". If you under-stand, you are already at their state, so the words are not even useful, a catch-22.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 6:59:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
I'd be interested if someone has a reference to the Satyananda quote; I can't imagine a swami saying that (not to contradict you, Hatha Teacher ... I just mean it literally: I can't imagine it .... and would just be interested in seeing the applicable quote).
He wrote it in his book called Kundalini Tantra. He was talking about an advanced stage of the kundalini awakening process where the kundalini energies move up beyond the ajna chakra and come to rest in the sahasrar, bringing about samadhi. He was saying that at the culmination of the kundalini process, kundalini and samadhi are the same thing:
"From here, energies fuse and flow together to sahasrara, where enlightenment unfolds. Kundalini awakening and samadhi are the same thing. If you understand the teachings of the Buddha and other great saints and teachers, you will find that they have all spoken about the same thing but in different languages." [Satyananda]
Christi
Thanks, Christi; that quote makes a LOT more sense now; thanks for posting the quote and the explanation.
"Context is our friend." <-- As In: knowing the context in which someone said something can help a quote (like the one being discussed here) seem really odd .... when (per your explanation), it's actually not.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 02:36:31 AM
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That sounds like the good ol' marriage between shiva and shakti, which all traditions speak of - the point where the Two principles finally become One - and is seen to be all there is - so it is actually the same thing, only two sides of a coin! Nothing spectacular about that...  No? |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2010 : 3:37:49 PM
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quote:
He wrote it in his book called Kundalini Tantra. He was talking about an advanced stage of the kundalini awakening process where the kundalini energies move up beyond the ajna chakra and come to rest in the sahasrar, bringing about samadhi. He was saying that at the culmination of the kundalini process, kundalini and samadhi are the same thing
Thanks a lot for your sum-up of the context (I knew Satyananda was less known on the other side of the Atlantic, so I think I should have provided something like that in the first place ).
Kundalini Tantra also reiterates the distinction between partial awakening (prodigies, prophets, poets etc.) and total awakening of the whole brain ("an incarnation or embodiment of divinity") and makes even a similar distinction about the main nadis (partial, in Ida and/or Pingala - total, Sushumna opened all the way from Mouladhara to Sahasrara). |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2010 : 4:06:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
That sounds like the good ol' marriage between shiva and shakti, which all traditions speak of - the point where the Two principles finally become One - and is seen to be all there is - so it is actually the same thing, only two sides of a coin! Nothing spectacular about that... No?
Not very spectacular, in Kundalini Tantra, the paths do lead to the same mountain. What the celibate hatha yogi unites within the mind and body (ha + tha, sun/hot/male + moon/cool/female energy), the Tantrist unites between two minds and bodies. Satyananda wrote he was aware that this might be hotly argued upon elsewhere, but to him it was the same experience and the same mountain.
'The contention of vama marga (= the left-hand path in Tantra) is that the awakening of kundalini is possible through the sexual interacton between man and woman.' ... 'more important than the energy waves that are created during the mutual union, is the process of directing that energy to the higher centres'. |
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Do all paths lead to the same mountain?
