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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 2:35:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
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Enlightenment is relaxing in the living room, enjoying the moment.
WOW!...it's really very easy...any more loquaciousness dilutes the pithy significance of this simple statement. Do you GROK the AYP concept of "less is more"?
Kirtanman....Sometimes all your words just confuse me.
Yeah, I have that same problem.
quote:
But I do love your jokes!...can you please highlight them in RED like Jesus's words in the bible...this would greatly simplify my reading your posts.
"God willing" ......
As In: A. If I can remember, and B. If I'm clear on what qualifies as a joke or not ...... *Sure*, unless C. It doesn't flow to do so (life's driving, not "me" ....  ).
Thanks for the kind words about my humor, and the gentle reminder about all the words ....
"Conditioning here" just tends to express in a few hundred words what others can do in 10 or 20.
"It's a gift."
Or something.
& I do "get it", from the reading side .... heck, I *skim* other long posts (i.e. the ones that are longer than other forum members', but still probably shorter than most of mine.)
The only teacher-type person I know who tends to do this is Tau Malachi (Sophia Fellowship), and I'm sure I'm missed some of the detail of his forum posts, because they're so long.
And so, there's a genuine sense of intention-release (aka samyama) re: my posts being the optimal length, and containing the optimal content, to be as useful as possible.
(Which is always the inherent intention, of course --- I just mean "vis a vis" post length, specifically.)
There's no such thing as an imperfect post, in terms of length, or any other factor, from any of us, any more than there's imperfect anything, anywhere, ever, of course (imperfection is .... an evaluation. Perfection -- completeness -- is simply reality as it is now).
And, there's no such thing as an imperfect reminder about post-length, either.
Living in natural harmony with reality involves noticing patterns and flowing with them, and so ...
"Duly noticing"  ........ and so flowing.
Thanks, Machart -- I really enjoy your posts, too -- your humor, your insight and your candor are all very much enjoyed and appreciated!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 6:17:55 PM
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Hi Manigma and All,
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
He is saying awareness; the awareness the underlies everything, is whole - without parts or breaks.
This is true; this is my experience, as well.
Awareness is not only present 24/7 - awareness is present eternally; it precedes and succeeds space and time, which are concepts of mind.
Dear Kirtanman
How and when did you get such inexhaustible energy to remain aware 24/7?
Awareness doesn't require energy.
Energy requires Awareness.
Awareness is primary; all else arises within it, is comprised of it, and subsides back into it, every moment now.
I am awareness, and awareness is constant and inexhaustible.
The same is true of you (Manigma) and of anyone reading.
Enlightenment doesn't mean "more awareness", it simply means being actually and consciously in touch with the awareness that gives rise to everything else; there is no more or less awareness anywhere; awareness is.
"Unenlightenment" means that attention is artificially attached to the fluctuations of the body-mind -- especially mind -- based on mistaken belief in separation.
It sounds as though you might still be confusing awareness and consciousness (?) ... no problem if so; I did this for a long time; many of us did.
I Am That is probably the best single resource I know of, to become clear, in ways that can be easily experienced, regarding which is which.
Nisargadatta states explicitly (please see my last post to you, in this thread) -- that when he is asleep he is "unconscious of my surroundings".
Me, too.
I get the "awake sleep" thing a lot, but this body-mind still experiences unconscious sleep, as did Nisargadatta's.
I supposed 24/7 consciousness might be able to be cultivated; as Nisargadatta also says in I Am That, anything is possible with training -- but what would be the point?
What could awareness hope to gain from this? (<-- important/rhetorical question --- if there's "hope to gain" .... that's not awareness, nor is it consciousness; that's mental fiction-reaction. )
The only thing most body-minds would probably get from trying to attain 24/7 consciousness is ......... really tired.
If there's a "great secret" to enlightenment, it's this:
Nothing in form needs to change for enlightenment to be realized.
Enlightenment is the absence of falsehood; not a gaining of truth.
When false ideas are absent, enlightenment is.
There's all kinds of conditioning operative in this body-mind .... and guess how much it affects enlightenment?
Ze-ro.
Once we know ourselves as awareness (and the body-mind arising within it, relatively-speaking) ... all else is naturally resolved, naturally whole, inherently liberated.
It's simplicity itself, literally.
We just tend to obscure it with all kind of habitual, hyper-focused thinking -- the very same thing that has obscured reality for as long as reality has been obscured, for any of us.
When we relax into wholeness, our realization that we're awareness living through a body-mind that's running on automatic, in the same way that we've (falsely) thought we're a mind living through a body that (almost entirely) runs on automatic ....... is seen to be our natural state / condition.
I went through thinking I needed to somehow be conscious 24/7, and that this somehow had something to do with enlightenment ....... and it didn't ..... and I got really tired ....... and it was all fine.
Maybe, though, these comments can help you (Manigma) and anyone else reading, not chase that particular dream carrot for as long as I did.
The ONLY movement that actually facilitates enlightenment in any way is noticing what is actually experiencing this moment, now.
If it can be noticed, if you can be aware of it ....... that's not it.
And so, no thoughts, no feelings, no energies, no sense-of-self have anything to do with it ... because those things are part of the ever-changing display, now.
Allow all the outward attention to just rest, and gently notice -- just notice, "back toward yourself" what is actually experiencing all those fluctuations.
The one thing that is ever the same is clear awareness.
Clear awareness is living every life now; anything not-now is just a thought, now.
Clear awareness has never been anywhere else.
Clear awareness has never been absent from any experience; clear awareness is what experiences, actually.
It is the focus of attention ..... only attention ..... with which unenlightenment is created.
To have enlightenment now ....... just stop doing that.
What about practices?
Practices are essential for almost all, because this artificial use of attention is so deeply embedded in the physical-mental structures of a given body-mind display, that various supporting tools are needed.
Communication can happen without computers .... but they make it easier.
Muscle can be built without weight-lifting, but they make it easier.
Enlightenment can be relaxed into without practices -- other than relaxing the hyper-focus of attention outward from awareness, that is; that's how unenlightenment is created every moment it's created in the exact same way that clenching your fist is how fist-clenching is created. To not experience clenched-fist, unclenching must occur -- and practices make unclenching a LOT easier ... so much so that many, including myself, have reiterated that practices are essential (as in: this may not be 100% true, but it's at least 99.something-something % true, and thus "essential" for almost all of us).
24/7 eternal-infinite Awareness is writing these words, 24/7 eternal-infinite Awareness is reading them --- there isn't actually anything else anywhere, ever. If there's any apparent difference in experience, it is only that I am consciously aware of being 24/7 eternal-infinite Awareness, and you, the reader, may not be consciously aware of this, now. However, YOU ARE THAT - Tattvam Asi - every bit as much as I am, right now, as ever; 100% as much.
Not only is there no difference between us -- there is no difference.
Diversity is not difference, diversity is display of various facets of non-duality "to" one another, within the whole we each and all ever actually are now. On the apparent "outside" - near-infinite diversity; on the reality of Inside - One/Wholeness-Now.
I hope this is useful
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Enlightenment really isn't anywhere "else", for anyone, ever --- reality is only here, now; there is no place else, and there is no time that's not now; other places and other times are thoughts now ... something any of us can verify for ourselves now, by simply noticing.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 03:34:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When false ideas are absent, enlightenment is.
When did you get rid of your false ideas permanently?
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Once we know ourselves as awareness...
What made you know yourself as 'awareness' eternally?
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Clear awareness is living every life now; anything not-now is just a thought, now.
When / How / What made your false ideas become permanently absent and you became actually in the 'now' (without thought) and eternally 'aware'? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 8:48:40 PM
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Hi Manigma,
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When false ideas are absent, enlightenment is.
When did you get rid of your false ideas permanently?
That's hard to say, and not entirely applicable.
It can't even be said that false ideas may not arise as a momentary reaction, but there's nothing to attach to them; that's the key.
Ideas "go with the body-mind"; they have nothing to do with me (awareness).
Just as mind lives via a body, yet they are integrated, I am utterly, inherently free, and beyond their fluctuations, yet they still occur within this that I am, as everything does.
It's not different for you, or anyone else (have you ever had an experience outside of awareness?); everything happens within awareness now, in experiencing and by definition. Even consciousness, even life, arise from awareness.
If anything can help you understand what I'm saying, here, it's probably the book I Am That -- you seem to resonate deeply with what Nisargadatta says in it, and I'm saying exactly the same things; nothing different, even a little bit.
I'm just using different phrasing, is all.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Once we know ourselves as awareness...
What made you know yourself as 'awareness' eternally?
We don't really "know ourselves as awareness" in the way the word "know" is usually used; awareness is not an object; awareness is what I am.
Awareness is eternal and infinite in the sense that it precedes the mental structures of space and time.
When our true nature as the experiencing awareness is realized, the inherent qualities (for lack of another term) of awareness are simply experienced.
Describing them is what is impossible; awareness is wholeness; words divide.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Clear awareness is living every life now; anything not-now is just a thought, now.
When / How / What made your false ideas become permanently absent and you became actually in the 'now' (without thought) and eternally 'aware'?
Hard to say; everything causes everything else.
I presume you're asking in terms of how it might apply to the same being true in your own experience, yes?
I'll try to give the best answer I can, per that presumption:
Please Note: all of the "I's" and "me's" below are referred to the dream-"me", and memories thereof; the "me I thought I was" at the time of the experiences:
I practiced AYP daily, for a few years; this created a "realization-rich" environment in the body-mind, as I used to say.
Spinal Breathing and Deep Meditation introduced me to true inner silence, while facilitating purification in the body-mind.
Further experiencing of inner silence helped me to experience the witness state, and the Gap ("outer silence" - the actual gap as one perception subsides and another arises).
I also realized kind of the "essence of inquiry", which isn't to mentally ask "who am I", but to notice who is actually experiencing.
Bit-by-bit, identification-attachment with objects in awareness loosened.
I experienced that even some of my most basic ideas about what I thought of as myself were identification-stories, re: conditioning about the body-mind ("I" was born; "I" shall die, etc.) ... all concepts; all untrue.
Truth is always in the direct of peace, wholeness, freedom, simplicity -- because that's all that's actual here; everything else is based on a divisive, arbitrary, usually abstract definition of some kind.
None of this was analyzed; simply experienced; simply seen by experiencing.
The witness deepened into true thought-free awareness ..... "witness-less-ness", maybe ... just pure being-living ..... "I am what is happening right now".
There were shifts "out" of this for a while, while I still mistakenly thought that thoughts or feelings could be accurate arbiters of reality (they can't).
(As In: the thought "I was aware, and now I'm not" - is as relative, as false and as momentary, as any other thought-construct; nirvikalpa is awareness free of thought-constructs.)
And so, all the adjectives .... eternal, etc. ... probably cause as much confusion as not using them would do; it doesn't mean they're not true, it just means they can't be understood by thinking or designation.
The wholeness of awareness must be experienced.
The reality that this is what we are becomes obvious, at a certain point; it's essentially the end of a natural motion .... just as a rock dropped off a building top can't "not fall" ... untrue ideas can't not-dissolve.
Once this happens; they're no longer the default; the distorting filter no longer arises.
I'm not in a special state ....... I'm not in a state at all; I'm in the natural wholeness that's here when partiality is no longer made up.
This happens when emotional attachment to memory-reactions is released, and this happens when the untruth of using memory ideas as arbiters of reality is seen.
Consider: if you can think of yourself, and feel like yourself ..... that's NOT yourself, because the actual experiencer is not those thoughts or feelings (as evidenced by the fact they're ever changing).
When all sense of subject (being a self), perception and objects in perception dissolves ... and clear awareness is still here, more clear and limitless than ever before ... we begin to "get it" by experiencing it .... that's why nirvikalpa samadhi is a helpful indicator of what's really here.
The main, final thing that helped me finish the process is realizing:
If I can see so many false stories now; so many evaluation-based views, held by a sense-of-self that is itself an evaluation-based view ...... then the rest of evaluation-based views must be untrue also (my hypothesis was correct; they are untrue).
For quite a few months (a bit over a year ago) .. there was kind of a final battle, where illusory conditioning pulled out ALL the stops to try to get me to feel that the one idea that was causing me suffering at that time (whatever it might have been; I don't even remember them, now! ) .... was the one exception .... the one thing that should be different than it is.
There are no exceptions.
Everything is at is is.
Nothing happens the other way; there is no other way; no "else", no "should".
All limitation is an artificial thought-construct.
Sure, there's the sense of living via a given body-mind; that goes with the body-mind, it's inherent in the design.
Awareness only feels bound by this, when there's artificial attachment of attention to thoughts of limitation.
Knowing self as awareness isn't a thing, an achievement; it's a relaxation into reality, now.
It's not a "thing", it's an un-thing; it's the reality that's here, when we no longer make-up unreality.
Just let go; there's no non-wholeness, actually.
If thoughts try to tell you otherwise, just ignore them, and notice: this moment consists of awareness-actuality; nothing else, until artificial memory-conditioning kicks up an untrue evaluation.
I hope this is useful.
Again, since you so strongly resonate w/Nisargadatta (so do I, by the way ) ... read a bit in I Am That, about our true nature, what awareness is, how it relates to body-mind, etc.
.... and most importantly: don't evaluate his words, or mine, mentally; let them serve as pointers to what's really, actually here, this very moment, now.
None of this is anywhere else; there is no "else".
It's all right here.
Let go into wholeness now, and know for yourself.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 28 2010 9:11:29 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 04:50:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It's all right here.
Let go into wholeness now, and know for yourself.
So its like you are the 'Ocean' (That) which speaks from its limited form 'Wave' (aka Kirtanman) which will not arise again as a 'Wave' once it dissolves (i.e dissolution of physical body and thought memory that became Kirtanman)?
Because the Wave has realised its true nature.... i.e. Ocean.
But what supports the Ocean? An Ocean can not exist on its own.
What does Nisargadatta mean when he says:
There is a power in the universe working for enlightenment -- and liberation. We call it Sadashiva, who is ever present in the hearts of men. It is the unifying factor. Unity -- liberates. Freedom -- unites. Ultimately nothing is mine or yours -- everything is ours. Just be one with yourself and you will be one with all, at home in the entire universe.
But who/what holds the entire universe? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 1:33:05 PM
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Hi Manigma,
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It's all right here.
Let go into wholeness now, and know for yourself.
So its like you are the 'Ocean' (That) which speaks from its limited form 'Wave' (aka Kirtanman) which will not arise again as a 'Wave' once it dissolves (i.e dissolution of physical body and thought memory that became Kirtanman)?
Sure.
It actually doesn't really arise now, truth be told .... it's just ... I don't know ..... convenient ........ as Nisargadatta has said:
"I am double-dead -- dead to body and mind."
Which isn't nearly as "meta-mystical" as it might sound; it's actually simplicity itself:
All we "die" to are incorrect ideas.
With incorrect ideas gone, it is experienced that death of the body and its mind don't affect our true nature, any more than discarding some old clothes would do, for any of us.
Body/Mind requires awareness; awareness does not require body/mind.
A body came out of another body, and because of the programming of conceptual conditioning and conventional language, we came to believe that "I" am "this body" alone, a mistaken concept reinforced nearly every moment of our so-called lives.
What is actuality?
Actuality is now. Anything not now is a thought now, a ,momentary form within consciousness, just like everything else.
When all form subsides, we usually experience this as sleep.
Via practices, we experience that sleep is a common, but not universal or essential - and that form can be utterly absent, and awareness is.
As this deepens, daily life begins to be experienced as awareness-experiencing, rather than "Me doing such and such in a world separate from me" ---- which (that latter dream-view of life) takes a LOT of energy to create, preserve and dissolve, every moment now.
When that artificial, energy-involving dream is released .... the result is (as Nisargadatta says) ..... normal; natural.
Many may not know what the name Nisargadatta means --- Nisarga - Natural; Datta - a name for God, or divinity --- and so, Nisargadatta is the "natural god", or "natural divinity".
Good name for him; good name for what we each and all ever actually are, now.
quote:
Because the Wave has realised its true nature.... i.e. Ocean.
Good analogy --- isn't it simply .... obvious .... that a wave is simply the ocean ... happening? Moving in a specific way, determined in full by relatively infinite forces -- and that's just how it is?
From the standpoint of a wave-thought, that thinks "I am this wave, and not that wave" ... the Ocean is big, scary, mysterious, etc. etc. etc.
When that artificial, and not-exactly-sane wave-thought is released, and the wave experiences itself as an aspect of the ocean-happening ..... what is there to be said about it .... it's like "Ahhh, beautiful -- actuality; nice!!"
And then it says, "Hey, wave thoughts - you're the ocean!"
And one wave thought says, "How can I be the whole ocean? I don't understand; please explain ..."
And the "realized wave" says, "Just drop the thought that you're a separate wave, and you'll experience it, too."
And the first wave thought says, "Okay, but I still don't understand how ....."
.... that gives a fairly accurate picture from the perspective of "realized waves" ... which are actually just natural waves .... non-artificial waves ... waves with no made-up ideas about themselves, or other waves, or the ocean.
And so, how do we realize?
Go deep enough, via daily deep meditation and simple observation and letting attention rest evenly in awareness as well as with the form-display within awareness, now -- to experience the ocean.
Then, the artificial wave-thought is more difficult to believe in, all the way.
Finally, after enough experience of being the ocean, it no longer arises at all.
The wave doesn't become a special wave ..... it becomes a normal, sane wave, no longer believing something false that keeps it ever out of sync with the simple reality of what actually is.
quote:
But what supports the Ocean? An Ocean can not exist on its own.
A literal physical ocean, true.
The ocean of consciousness, also true.
What supports it?
The ultimate; the supreme -- this that I actually am.
This that you, and all of us, actually "am", too ---- there's only One, only Wholeness.
quote:
What does Nisargadatta mean when he says:
There is a power in the universe working for enlightenment -- and liberation. We call it Sadashiva, who is ever present in the hearts of men. It is the unifying factor. Unity -- liberates. Freedom -- unites. Ultimately nothing is mine or yours -- everything is ours. Just be one with yourself and you will be one with all, at home in the entire universe.
Sadasiva is the highest part of our Self that is actively waking our dreaming self up.
When artificial, conceptual dividing lines no longer arise, wholeness is our experience.
quote:
But who/what holds the entire universe?
The Supreme; this that we actually are. The Universe is form; form is contained within this - the Wholeness we actually are - which includes formlessness and form, and is ever beyond both.
As Nisaragadatta has said:
"All your questions are sprouting from your identification with the body-form. You should go inside. All hopes and cravings should be for the Self (Consciousness). You should only be craving the Self."
&
"Whatever appears in Consciousness disappears in Consciousness, but Consciousness is ever-present."
He said those things in this awesome video, and per that video ---- he sounds like he means it!!
What we are is source, the ultimate, or supreme, as Nisaragadatta says repeatedly in I Am That.
This can never make sense to thinking-mind, because thinking mind is artificially limited, partial and divisive.
It can only comprehend pieces that it can hold apart from itself, and that's not how reality is, actually; awareness is wholeness -- and wholeness is what we are.
Practices, and noticing the experiencing awareness that doesn't change (i.e. let your attention rest, openly; per your description of your meditations, it sounds like you're well able to do this, already. )
Trying to figure out things conceptually with thinking-mind is literally pointless; it just doesn't apply to what's going on, here (and I mean this kindly; most of us don't know this, and so, we spent a ton of time, prior to realizing, as Nisargadatta terms it, and a ton of energy, trying to understand - which either doesn't help us, or actively blocks realization, depending upon the exact nature of the thinking, and our attachment to it.)
It's kind of like: you want to get in good physical shape, and you notice that I appear to be in great shape (yes, this is solely an example ..... ), and I say something like, "Yep, it's great to be healthy! If you keep working out, eating right, etc. ... you'll know what it's like, too."
And then you respond with, "Well, but when and how did you become healthy? What does it actually feel like?" .... and so on.
I don't mind having the conversation .... but viewed the way I describe it above (which is actually how it feels to me) .... I'm guessing you can see that it doesn't really feel possible (because it's not ) to give actual answers - especially any answers that are clear, helpful and truly useful.
That's because (per the analogy) ..... health isn't something that can be understood with the mind; it must be known for oneself.
Ditto what we're talking about here (the natural state, realization, enlightenment --- whatever we call it).
The whole idea of "something supporting the Universe" - is just that - an idea.
"The Universe" is a concept, perceived, from the standpoint of thinking-mind, as something larger and/or more expansive that itself.
This isn't accurate.
All form, even space and time, occur within awareness.
When it's experienced, it's a lot less "woo-hoo" than the words can make it sound.
Form has no issues; it's insentient - it just is.
Awareness has no issues; it's sentience.
In living unbound, awareness-form is experienced as wholeness - two facets of One.
Only artificial conceptuality and misunderstanding make it seem different than that (than simple wholeness; awareness-experiencing-actuality).
As AYP has taught from the very beginning, it's by removing the obscurations with practices ... removing the "mud from the windshield" ... that we know our true nature as wholeness.
Wholeness is never anywhere else; all the (conceptually-conditioned memory-reactions of ego/thinking-mind) mud just makes the view seem less clear, more confusing and more dangerous and mysterious, than it actually is.
It's (this view that occurs within this that we are) simplicity itself; it's just what is here when the windshield is clear.
I hope that's useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 04:03:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
All form, even space and time, occur within awareness.
Yes.
Space exists with body and Time exists with mind.
When we are beyond body and mind, we are beyond Space and Time.
"IF YOU CAN SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THE PHYSICAL BODY, AND REST IN CONSCIOUSNESS, THEN THIS VERY MOMENT YOU WILL BE HAPPY, AT PEACE, AND FREE OF BONDAGE.
OH EXPANSIVE ONE, RELIGION AND ATHEISM, HAPPINESS AND MISERY -- ALL ARE OF THE MIND, THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU. YOU ARE NOT THE DOER NOR THE ENJOYER. YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LIBERATED.
YOU ARE THE ONE OBSERVER OF ALL, AND IN REALITY ALWAYS FREE. YOUR BONDAGE IS THIS: YOU SEE THE OTHER -- NOT YOURSELF -- AS THE OBSERVER.
-Ashtavakra Samhita
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When it's experienced, it's a lot less "woo-hoo" than the words can make it sound.
Yes.
In pure awareness (the unshakeable silence)... there is no separation, no words, no concepts, no birth, no death...
BUT.... Is that all?
Why did the Ocean became a Wave in the first place? Why awareness chose to be unaware?
I know such questions do not arise when you are That!
But such questions do arise when you are This!
And there must be a reason why That became This.
One has to reach the Supreme state (Sat-Chit-Ananda) and return back to This!
To be in the Supreme state (Sat-Chit-Ananda) is not all that is. I don't know but something is missing/incomplete in this "wholeness" concept... like a flaw or something.
What do you mean when you say "Heart is where the AUM is"? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 7:54:47 PM
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Hi Manigma
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
All form, even space and time, occur within awareness.
Yes.
Space exists with body and Time exists with mind.
Yes, and ironically, we dream we're little slivers of each, when the totality of both arises, displays and subsides within this that we are now.
quote:
When we are beyond body and mind, we are beyond Space and Time.
True that.
quote:
YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LIBERATED.
IN REALITY ALWAYS FREE.
"Hm."
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YOUR BONDAGE IS THIS: YOU SEE THE OTHER -- NOT YOURSELF -- AS THE OBSERVER.
-Ashtavakra Samhita
"Double-HM."
quote:
In pure awareness (the unshakeable silence)... there is no separation, no words, no concepts, no birth, no death...
BUT.... Is that all?
Um ... yeah, pretty much.
quote:
Why did the Ocean became a Wave in the first place?
It didn't.
It just thought it did.
Out of interest, it focused on movement and newness, and then the very thing that caused it to think of itself as a wave at all, instead of simply being a movement of the ocean ..... namely ...... language and concept ... came rushing into the temporary-attention-focus that shifted from "Waving .... FUN" ... to .... "I'm a Wave!!"
... A veritable tidal wave .... "Yes, you're a wave and only a wave like all these other waves .... and we'll teach you how to be a good wave .... the right kind of wave ...."
And in your innocence ... you smiled and nodded and said, "Okay!"
..... and now look.
quote:
Why awareness chose to be unaware?
It didn't --- because we're talking about an ocean of awareness-consciousness, it moved/moves from wholeness to focus on distinction .... and confused/confuses the temporary designations of focus on distinction with actuality.
The wave never actually becomes non-ocean.
That's why we just have to drop the thought we're "only a wave", and we *are* the ocean.
However, not only have we been conditioned to believe in form-only for a lifetime, but our very species has been so conditioned, with the weapons of language, culture and concept, for thousands of years right now.
And so, the wave idea feels "Ah, I'm the ocean!!" ... and everything from its own thought-forms, to millions of other thought-forms which comprise its entire memory-dream of what "ocean" and "wave" are ... rush in to convince the thought-wave that it's wrong, and that it is only a thought-wave, and nothing more.
"Moral of the Story" ......... Back AWAY from the Thought-Waves!!
quote:
I know such questions do not arise when you are That!
True ... no more questions, 'cause, well, no more questioner. It's nice. Very quiet.
Oh, by the way ..... Tattvam Asi ..... You Are That.
There's only one That, aka This, aka All Now; no kidding.
quote:
But such questions do arise when you are This!
Oh, I know; been there, dreamed that -- I get it .... but all the questions amount to "But how .... HOW does 2+2=3?"
The only honest answer is, of course: it doesn't.
There are no answers to get; there's only wholeness here; the questioner and the questions are based on a false premise.
You're the wholeness, dreaming you are partial, asking how partiality makes sense.
It's doesn't.
It's an incorrect equation; a flawed premise.
ALL you can do, that has any benefit at all is ..... Just Let It Go.
quote:
And there must be a reason why That became This.
Nope --- there mustn't ---- because that didn't become this ----- it's a dream.
.... as thousands of years' worth of those who awakened have kindly been mentioning, all over the world .... saying almost exactly the same thing, regardless of language, tradition, era, or whatever.
Maybe, just maybe ...................... they're not kidding.
I'm not asking you to believe me; you can't believe me ..... belief is the problem.
All you can do is wake up, and see for yourself.
Imagine you had a dream last night, of living in a bizarre, confusing, half-dead environment ... and you kept asking question after question, trying desperately to make sense of it all, and were sure you could figure it out, and you dreamed you were getting closer to figuring it out, and then
..... you ..... woke ...... up.
How important would those questions feel now?
"Not very."
I know this, because I went through an ultra-similar, if not identical process.
I never figured anything out ... or, if I did, I don't remember, and it doesn't matter .... not even a little, tiny, infinitesimal bit ......... it was a DREAM.
Really.
(That IS the answer. .... to ALL questions.)
Well, except pragmatic ones, such as "Is 34th street this way?", ".... you gonna eat that?", and so on.
quote:
One has to reach the Supreme state (Sat-Chit-Ananda) and return back to This!
They do? We do? I don't get it ........ (and, I must admit, I'm not unhappy about that ....... )
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To be in the Supreme state (Sat-Chit-Ananda) is not all that is.
Um - yes it is; literally.
Part of any confusion may be: it's not a state.
The Supreme is reality; being reality, being wholeness now.
There's no return, though; that's part of the dream -- only wholeness.
Just as the wave is never different than the ocean, body-mind are not actually different than the wholeness of the supreme (original, changeless awareness) -- they, and all, occur within this wholeness -- exactly as waves are ocean and only ocean ... ocean happening.
quote:
I don't know but something is missing/incomplete in this "wholeness" concept... like a flaw or something.
Yes, indeedy.
First, it's not a concept, not even a little; it's actuality.
And second, manifestation has countless facets to it, just as the ocean has countless waves ..... and no wave is separate from the ocean, even the tiniest bit, no matter how much it dreams that it really is separate.
Imagine a wave-idea writing what you wrote above ......
"I don't know but something is missing/incomplete in this "ocean" concept... like a flaw or something."
Just as the answer to the wave-idea would be ..... there's a flaw, alright ... it's called "dreaming I'm this wave-idea" ....
... the answer here is: yes, wholeness, as an imagined concept will always seem flawed to a misperception of partiality; it will never make sense as a concept; it can't make sense as a concept .... because you're operating from a premise that partiality is real.
If you're sure that 2+2=3, and that it must ..... 2+2=4 will seem flawed somehow .... until you realize, in experience, that 2+2=4, but only always.
Then, trying to make 2+2=3 will seem like exactly what it looks like stated as a simple equation ........... a 100% waste of effort.
quote:
What do you mean when you say "Heart is where the AUM is"?
I dunno; it just sounds kinda cool.
*Kidding*
Heart, in Sanskrit is Hridayam -- Hrid means Center; Ayam means This ... Heart, Hridayam, is the "Center of This" --- This That Is Ever Everywhere Now; the Allness (or Self, as Ramana Maharshi terms it -- Ramana specifically says that Heart, God, Guru & Self are all synonymous).
I say AUM is where the Heart is, because the four parts of AUM (A, U, M & Bindu .... waking, dreaming, deep sleep, awareness) and Heart are the same thing, from different angles .... from one angle, four-parts-in-one; from the other, All ... yet, no difference, anywhere.
All in All -- Heart Is Where The AUM Is, is just my quasi-poetical way of saying:
There's only wholeness here.
Which is why I stopped using that as a sign-off line a while back, and started using the one I usually use now, when I use one ---->
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- As people told me for years ..... the biggest barrier, the ONLY real barrier is: trying to figure stuff out ..... and not paying attention to the "figure-out"-er.
Notice the "I Am", that sense of being a separate someone. Is there *really* something there? Or is there something that experiences even that "I am" sense?
If something can be experiencED ..... can it be the ExperiencER?
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 30 2010 7:57:17 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 9:49:32 PM
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After finishing my last post, I picked up Be As You Are (<== "always good advice" ) by Ramana Maharshi, which I'm re-reading, because I like the way Ramana Maharshi puts things.
Somehow, he manages to convey very powerful truth using very few words.
.... must be a siddhi.
... and ... I literally opened the book, and saw these words:
"When seen through the sight of the supreme space of Self, the illusion of taking birth in the mirage-like false world is found to be nothing but the egotistical ignorance of identifying a body as 'I'.
Among those whose minds are possessed with forgetfulness of Self, those who are born will die and those who die will be born again.
But know that those who minds are dead, having known the glorious supreme reality, will remain only there in that elevated state of reality, devoid of birth and death.
Forgetting Self, mistaking the body for Self, taking innumerable births, and at last knowing Self and being Self is just like waking from a dream of wandering all over the world."
A few years ago, I first read those words and thought -- "Great, but HOW does a regular human being get from here to there?"
Now that "there" has dissolved into here, I read those words and smile, and think: "That's true."
What made the difference between those two reactions?
I can't really say.
A lot has gone on in the last few years.
In fact, one of the only things I've actually done every single day in the intervening time is ..... AYP.
"Hm."
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2010 : 01:22:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
...because the four parts of AUM (A, U, M & Bindu .... waking, dreaming, deep sleep, awareness)...
How does the four parts of AUM denote those four states? Would you please explain? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2010 : 12:53:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
...because the four parts of AUM (A, U, M & Bindu .... waking, dreaming, deep sleep, awareness)...
How does the four parts of AUM denote those four states? Would you please explain?
Hi Manigma,
Okay.
Some points of note:
*AUM (including bindu) ... denotes what I call the "3-in-1-in-All" relative model of consciousness:
There are three primary levels of consciousness/manifestation, either subtle to gross {manifesting} or gross to subtle {dissolving} with the fourth state being the underlying "ground" common to them all (the "1" mentioned above), which is ultimately integrated with them all (the "All" mentioned above).
And so, five parts in total (the last "part" being the total - as in:
A
U
M
. (Bindu)
& AUM. <- the wholeness; the dot being bindu.
These states/levels, etc. can be:
Waking, Dreaming, Deep Sleep, Turiya, Turyatita
Physical, Mental, Causal, Awareness, Wholeness
Body, Mind, Spirit, Awareness, Wholeness
5 Element Model
Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Ether
Tattva Model (Per Kashmir Shaivism's ) 36 Tattvas & 4 Spheres {Actual 5, as with AUM - Shiva is the Wholeness}
Prthivi (Earth), Prakriti (Nature), Purusa , Shakti, Shiva
Levels Of Speech Model (also from Kashmir Shaivism)
Vaikhari (Gross), Madhyama (Subtle), Pasyanti (Very Subtle), Paravak (Ultimate Speech, aka Awareness), Para ("Beyond", aka Wholeness)
.... to name just a few ... and they all represent the same thing:
Three gross-to-subtle relative levels of manifestation, resting on a fourth which is the source and support of the three, with the fifth being the totality of all of these, in actuality (the divisions are all relative designations to be used as teaching tools; wholeness is actual. )
That's why AUM is the primordial creative sound.
(And so, if you haven't surmised this already, I've combined two symbol-sets in saying "Heart is where the AUM is" - the wholeness of AUM being wholeness, and Heart also being wholeness - that's *why* Heart is where the AUM is; AUM, all creation, arises from this Whole Heart that we each and all ever actually are, now).
All traditions have this 3-in-1-in-All model; another one that comes to mind is Kabbalah - they use Adam Kadmon, the Universal Man, and within Adam are the four worlds - Emanation, Creation, Formation & Action (the levels listed above, but in reverse - Adam Kadmon is Turyatita, wholeness; Emanation is Awareness (Turiya), Creation is Causal, Formation is Mental, Action is Physical - Kabbalah also uses YHVH to express this same symbolism).
All this symbolism stuff is kind of *my* world ... so I hope this isn't too much of a "data dump".
I've actually found knowing about this symbolism to be very helpful to understanding a lot of ancient sacred writings, which just use the symbolism, but don't elaborate upon it (because those writings are from a time when writing was just a support for oral clarification from a guru or teacher - and so, this helped keep the teachings somewhat secret -- but also made them somewhat mystifying for modern readers, unless we know the symbolism ... and hey ... now we do. )
Also - "per above" - the primary model for AUM has four/five levels, but there are also nine and twelve-level models, which also symbolize and illustrate increasingly subtle levels of consciousness.
HOWEVER -- VERY IMPORTANT ---> None of them are really necessary; learning about them didn't accelerate awakening for me; only practices, experiencing, observation and "being all the way in" (becoming a "truth-seeking missile") helped facilitate that.
Information is objective.
Reality/Wholeness is subjective ---- that's what I AM is given as the Name of God, in the Bible (when Moses spoke to God atop Mt. Sinai -- and which Ramana Maharshi understandably says is the most accurate name of God).
Here are a couple of other articles that may be useful:
AUM Overview #1 from SwamiJ.com
BTW - Swami Jnaneshvara - "Swami J" - writes of 7 Levels, related to AUM; that's because he counts two transition levels, on top of the five, as his article explains.
AUM Overview #2 from Bhagavad Gita USA.com
That article covers the basics, but also expands int more details and nuances.
The main points related to the extra details in those two AUM articles, are:
*The basic model of AUM representing states of consciousness is well-known, and serves as the basis for more detailed/nuanced symbolism, related to consciousness/awareness/being.
*The model is a relative model - more of a template or container, than symbols with a 1:1 correlation; this helps the models be more flexible, and more accurate, because consciousness is neither fixed nor static.
Those are two of the better ones I know; if you have further interest, "Google around" .... the symbolism is very well-known.
I hope this is useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I've also posted about it here at the forum quite a bit --- if you do a forum search, you should be able to find more details as well (if you want or need more details that is ....... ) |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 31 2010 7:27:19 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2010 : 07:46:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
AUM Overview #1 from SwamiJ.com
AUM Overview #2 from Bhagavad Gita USA.com
Thank you dear Kirtanman.
These two links include everything that I wanted to learn / clarify about my experiences.
They also include everything that I have ever posted and read in this forum.
This is where all my asking you above questions was trying to lead.
Wholeheartedly Thanks and Namaste! |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2010 : 5:58:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
AUM Overview #1 from SwamiJ.com
AUM Overview #2 from Bhagavad Gita USA.com
Thank you dear Kirtanman.
These two links include everything that I wanted to learn / clarify about my experiences.
They also include everything that I have ever posted and read in this forum.
This is where all my asking you above questions was trying to lead.
Wholeheartedly Thanks and Namaste!
Hey- Love it!!
You are most welcome, dear Manigma!
That's how it all tends to go, when we let it -- things happen unexpectedly well and easily ..... "unexpectedly" being the operative word
.... and I'm very happy to hear that was the result; I had no idea ("Having no idea is a way of life" ) ... I just remembered seeing AUM-related articles on both those sites, before, and I find that they both have consistently excellent information, and so, passed the articles along.
Wholeheartedly; Namaste,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2010 : 1:40:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
This is where all my asking you above questions was trying to lead.
Just want to share some of my favorite OMs:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lps1hzr0x80
- Very peaceful and Heart opening. The heart expands like the vast Himalayas.
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaJPfnCi1t8
- This one lifts the energy like a rocket lifting off from the Mooladhara to Ajana.
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4noQ0MD1_8s
- Feels like sitting in Siddhasana right in the middle of Himalayas. A diamond in the lotus.
There are a few more but I couldn't find links to them.
But my FAVORITE is Om Namo from 'India all Over' by Bhakta of mymastermusic.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/d2b2
I was in touch with Bhakta a few years ago and he told me it was sung by a Tibetan monk Phende. He also sent me a picture of this monk later.
I have heard this album probably a million times and it still runs all the time when I am driving. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2011 : 5:01:18 PM
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Q: But how can I know myself? To know myself I must be away from myself. But what is away from myself cannot be myself. So, it looks that I cannot know myself, only what I take to be myself.
M: Quite right. As you cannot see your face, but only its reflection in the mirror, so you can know only your image reflected in the stainless mirror of pure awareness.
Q: How am I to get such stainless mirror?
M: Obviously, by removing stains. See the stains and remove them. The ancient teaching is fully valid.
Q: What is seeing and what is removing?
M: The nature of the perfect mirror is such that you cannot see it. Whatever you can see is bound to be a stain. Turn away from it, give it up, know it as unwanted. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 06:41:18 AM
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I am that. A whole bunch of words around one basic thing. It's such a simple approach yet seems to create astounding revelations of a philisophical nature amongst it's readers.
Stay as you truly are, as your life force, the supreme whatever you want to call it. There is no requirement to search for it as it is your essential essence, sit still for a moment and anyone can be with it, but it is incredibly difficult to maintain. The mind is easily destracted and wants to play with it's desires. Maybe it it's just lazy and wants the external because it's easy.
I laugh when it's so obvious what he means, yet the questioner clings to the illusion like a limpet to a rock.
Have no desires and you are eternally happy, to have no desires stay as you truly are.
Simples. I suspect this is what Yogani based AYP on. Meditating on 'I am' staying in the moment, foresaking the false in order to recognise that it is only thought and so to stop identifying with it. Loosening the bonds enough to glimpse what truly is. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 04:02:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Simples. I suspect this is what Yogani based AYP on. Meditating on 'I am' staying in the moment, foresaking the false in order to recognise that it is only thought and so to stop identifying with it. Loosening the bonds enough to glimpse what truly is.
A mantra does not have the meaning -- the meaning is hidden in you. The mantra is just a technical support to help the meaning that is within you to come up. A design which will help you to bring up the meaning which is hidden in your soul.
The mantra will just provoke you inside so that your inner meaning flowers through it. Slowly, you have to wait; as mind needs fixation, mind needs concentration, only then the inner meaning can be revealed. So one has to go on practicing the same thing every day, but the meaning will keep on changing because you begin to change.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 07:08:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Simples. I suspect this is what Yogani based AYP on. Meditating on 'I am' staying in the moment, foresaking the false in order to recognise that it is only thought and so to stop identifying with it. Loosening the bonds enough to glimpse what truly is.
A mantra does not have the meaning -- the meaning is hidden in you. The mantra is just a technical support to help the meaning that is within you to come up. A design which will help you to bring up the meaning which is hidden in your soul.
The mantra will just provoke you inside so that your inner meaning flowers through it. Slowly, you have to wait; as mind needs fixation, mind needs concentration, only then the inner meaning can be revealed. So one has to go on practicing the same thing every day, but the meaning will keep on changing because you begin to change.
No cause, no effect, no mantra, no change, no meaning, no need to do anything. A succession of steps that lead straight back to the point on which I already stand.
I woke up.
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Edited by - karl on Aug 13 2011 07:09:13 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 07:59:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I woke up.
LOL. When?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 09:26:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by karl
I woke up.
LOL. When?
Now |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 10:26:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by karl
I woke up.
LOL. When?
Now
Cool. Now that you are awake. Tell us why you slept? Did you need rest or something.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 12:13:18 PM
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| It requires no reason, it is of itself. |
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I am That
