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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - May 20 2010 : 4:59:11 PM
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After my question on proper mindfulness a while ago, and having read about the type of breath meditation where you keep very alert, I have come to a question on how to perform the AYP version of breath meditation correctly...
In a mindfulness type of breath meditation one should
"attend the object with continuity"
"maintain vividness - not drift off" according to Allan Wallace "The four immeasurables..."
No fuzziness allowed, it seems. 
When doing mantra meditation everything is ok, as long as we gently come back to the mantra when we discover we're off it... and the mantra can become more and more fuzzy and subtle...
When doing AYP breath meditation - is it meant to be done the same way as the mantra meditation - the only difference being the object of meditation: coming back to the breath instead of the mantra?
Is it ok to lose the "vividness" or is maintaining the vividness the sort of point with it all, whether mantra or breath meditation?
The "gross and subtle excitation" and "gross and subtle laxity" described on page 48-49 in this book (http://books.google.se/books?id=WvC...ge&q&f=false) is by far the most detailed and easily comprehended description of states in consciousness I have ever read and it really made me reconsider what I'm up to in meditation. It also had me wonder if those are the stages expected to happen also with AYP Deep meditation...? Are the descriptions valid also for developmental stages in AYP meditation? If so...:
I have never seen "vividness" being stressed in AYP DM, so I easily go into laxity and drift off/slack off, and then gently come back to the mantra/breath whenever noticed. I guess I have trusted the I AM mantra will take care of it naturally and deepen the meditation anyhow, but will the same happen with breath meditation, or will it be necessary to then "bring in a spark of vividness" to be on the right track?
I hope you can follow the track of the questions, as they are piled on each other... I'm tired, but would appreciate any input on this. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2010 : 6:08:45 PM
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Hi emc
It seems from previous conversations that you easily go into the non-dual and then get what Wallace describes as laxity. Staying with the vividness of the breath then, for you probably requires some effort, but hopefully it helps.
It would seem the same would apply to the mantra for you and others in the same situation, that it might be a good idea to keep the mantra clear and vivid.
This is not my general experience as you know, but even so I have found myself in overload sometimes and one of the ways I stay out of it is to repeat the mantra clearly and without allowing anything fuzzy to happen.
Don't know if this helps, I'm tired also |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 03:18:29 AM
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Hi Louis, thank you very much for your reply. I'm vividly listening to all thoughts around this. You might be absolutely right. However, your answer is naturally a bit biased since you are already practicing mindfulness since so many years.
I'm thinking, there must be a reason why Yogani does NOT stress vividness at all, but rather takes the approach "never mind what happens, just gently come back to the mantra". Even falling asleep or being "gone" for the whole session is ok... Is it implied that "vividness" will come naturally, so it goes without saying? Or is vividness not considered important in AYP DM?
I'd appreciate more thoughts! Particularly from others also doing breath meditation. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 08:22:51 AM
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Hi emcquote:
However, your answer is naturally a bit biased since you are already practicing mindfulness since so many years.
Good point, my neural pathways may be sculpted by mindfulness practice over many years and so may result in a different kind of experience with the mantra, hard to know. |
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innercall
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 09:30:48 AM
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Hi emc,
I am doing breath meditation (AYP style) since a while because I am oversensitive and my experience is probably similar to yours. Usually after only a couple of breaths, I am in a fuzzy state and I can lose and come back to the awareness of the breathing but from a deeper, more unclear perspective. This is also accompanied by a lot of energy in varying form from ecstasy to emotions and discomforts in the body. Also, after a very short meditation, it can be as short as 2-3 minutes, this fuzzy, blurry state remains for the 10 minutes relaxation and it even gets deeper if I let myself relax completely in shavasana. It seems to be very easy for me to get deep and fuzzy very fast and slow to come back to a normal state.
I read your message yesterday and this morning I tried to do my meditation with the intention of getting back to a vivid, clearer awareness of the breathing. Basically what I did was the same as usual only in the same way that we come back to the breathing when we notice we are off it, I came back to a clearer awareness when I noticed it was getting fuzzy. I was putting a little more effort in it rather than letting flow and sink deep as I used to do. The result was quite good during meditation. I could meditate longer and I could feel bliss the way I was feeling it when I first started mantra meditation a couple of years ago (when this ability to get quickly in this fuzzy and deep state was not there). After meditation, I was not feeling as fuzzy and spaced out as it is sometime. I will have to see how I feel during the day.
In is lesson for under-sensitive meditator (#366) Yogani said “When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the latter.”
Maybe we could advise the opposite for over-sensitive meditators: When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the clearer. Maybe it can be a way to put the brakes on when our meditation is already over-purifying and get to comfortable manageable purification intensity.
It would be interesting to have Yogani’s thought about that.
Anyway, I think I will experiment with this for some time to see if it helps.
Thanks for bringing this point to our attention; it may well be very useful to oversensitive meditators. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 10:43:32 AM
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I use this kind of meditation (breath) since some months ago and its going fine. I simply focus atention on breath and when i lose it i return to it.When the breath becomes a fuzzy object i simply return and favour that fuzzy perception of breath.
This is an excellent tool for sensitive folks and im able to do 10 mtes 2 a day with no problems.It cultivates inner silence in a very smooth way also.
I have reached some samadhi gaps using this tool (from time to time) and experienced periods of no mind in my daily life (favoured by self inquiry practice also) sometimes for some days.Its not usual,but breath meditation cultivates it with practice.
The perfect practice for sensitive ones.I find mantra meditation really hard to manage for me. |
Edited by - miguel on May 21 2010 10:46:16 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 12:59:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
After my question on proper mindfulness a while ago, and having read about the type of breath meditation where you keep very alert, I have come to a question on how to perform the AYP version of breath meditation correctly...
In a mindfulness type of breath meditation one should
"attend the object with continuity"
"maintain vividness - not drift off" according to Allan Wallace "The four immeasurables..."
No fuzziness allowed, it seems.
When doing mantra meditation everything is ok, as long as we gently come back to the mantra when we discover we're off it... and the mantra can become more and more fuzzy and subtle...
When doing AYP breath meditation - is it meant to be done the same way as the mantra meditation - the only difference being the object of meditation: coming back to the breath instead of the mantra?
Is it ok to lose the "vividness" or is maintaining the vividness the sort of point with it all, whether mantra or breath meditation?
The "gross and subtle excitation" and "gross and subtle laxity" described on page 48-49 in this book (http://books.google.se/books?id=WvC...ge&q&f=false) is by far the most detailed and easily comprehended description of states in consciousness I have ever read and it really made me reconsider what I'm up to in meditation. It also had me wonder if those are the stages expected to happen also with AYP Deep meditation...? Are the descriptions valid also for developmental stages in AYP meditation? If so...:
I have never seen "vividness" being stressed in AYP DM, so I easily go into laxity and drift off/slack off, and then gently come back to the mantra/breath whenever noticed. I guess I have trusted the I AM mantra will take care of it naturally and deepen the meditation anyhow, but will the same happen with breath meditation, or will it be necessary to then "bring in a spark of vividness" to be on the right track?
I hope you can follow the track of the questions, as they are piled on each other... I'm tired, but would appreciate any input on this.
Hi emc :)
Thank you very much for this link and your question. That is an expensive book, but I've ordered it just the same. Seems to be a popular book because you can only buy it second hand.
Now I think that when I have meditations where the mantra itself turns into visions and colored ribbons I'm experiencing a form of gross or subtle laxity, as you've pointed out. I did notice that I can crank up my vividness with much effort, and now I believe that that is what I should do when I hit this state.
You know, the other interesting thing about this book is that Wallace states that once a person has reached a certain stage in watching the breath, a nimitta appears and one should then switch from breath meditation to focusing on the nimitta. This resonates with me because I've seen nimittas many times during deep states of deep relaxation meditation (sensing the inner body ala Tolle).
Here is a quote from the book you've pointed out:
quote:
After some time, when you've achieved good stability, a mental image similar to a spontaneous visualization may appear in the area where you have been attending. Most commonly it takes the form of a little pearl of light, or a small mesh, or cotton ball, or spider web of light. At first it will come just occasionally, and you should not pay much attention: treat it nonchalantly. Gradually it will stabilize and become routine. When it arises regularily of its own accord whenever you sit down to your meditation, the it's time to shift the focus of your attention. You move your focus from the tactile sensations of the breath and place your attention on the image that has arisen. That natually arisen mental image, or "sign" (nimitta), then remains your object up to the time you reach samatha. There is no definite time when that sign will appear, but it may begin to show up occasionally as early as in the third attentional state.
So, once again, this difference in methodoloy of practice (samatha or AYP deep meditation) leaves me wondering which procedure is better for attaining samadhi. Mantra or 'deep relaxation' leading to nimittas? I've never seen any nimittas during mantra repetition because I'm focusing on the mantra and ignoring any other images. But if I practice the "sensing the inner body" many nimittas appear and fairly consistently, but they never last long.
You do realize that the whole point of that book's practice is to be able to sustain unbroken awareness thereby achieving samatha, which to me, at first, seems diametrically opposed to mantra repetition which is a series of broken objects of focus; each mantra repetition in an object and there are gaps in between! A few times I've succeeded in gaining a samadhi-like state during mantra repetition, but only by focusing continually on the image of the "I" in the "I AM" mantra. Perhaps there is a secret to achieving unbroken awareness during mantra repetition by making the subject of the observation the "creation, sustainment and dissolution of the mantra" as a whole. Perhaps Yogani could comment on this. Upon reflection, I think Yogani did mention that somewhere in one of his lessons..
In keeping with the idea of an 'unbroken stream of awareness', Wallace indicates that the awareness of the breath is to be treated as one continuous stream without any gaps in it.
And, another popular Buddhist meditator called David Ingram says the same:
from "MASTERING THE CORE TEACHINGS OF THE BUDDHA"
quote:
Try not paying too much attention to the individual sensations themselves, but conceptualize the breath as a coherent and continuous entity, with many different types of sensations all being thought of as being the breath. It is important to know that really getting into a sense of the breath as a continuous entity for 10 seconds will do you more good than being generally with the breath on and off for an hour.
In conclusion, emc, thank you for bringing this up as it has helped me to understand more about what has been occuring to me during deep meditation and what I should do about it. Perhaps I am correct in assuming that the purpose of both mantra repetition and breath awareness meditation is to gain a continuous stream of awareness while maintaining a state of deep relaxation, and that during the process, gross and subtle laxity will occur at which time I should crank up my vividness.
:)
TI
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2010 : 12:58:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by innercall
I read your message yesterday and this morning I tried to do my meditation with the intention of getting back to a vivid, clearer awareness of the breathing. Basically what I did was the same as usual only in the same way that we come back to the breathing when we notice we are off it, I came back to a clearer awareness when I noticed it was getting fuzzy. I was putting a little more effort in it rather than letting flow and sink deep as I used to do. The result was quite good during meditation. I could meditate longer and I could feel bliss the way I was feeling it when I first started mantra meditation a couple of years ago (when this ability to get quickly in this fuzzy and deep state was not there). After meditation, I was not feeling as fuzzy and spaced out as it is sometime. I will have to see how I feel during the day.
In is lesson for under-sensitive meditator (#366) Yogani said “When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the latter.”
Maybe we could advise the opposite for over-sensitive meditators: When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the clearer. Maybe it can be a way to put the brakes on when our meditation is already over-purifying and get to comfortable manageable purification intensity.
It would be interesting to have Yogani’s thought about that.
Anyway, I think I will experiment with this for some time to see if it helps.
Thanks for bringing this point to our attention; it may well be very useful to oversensitive meditators.
Innercall, very interesting! I tried too, but did not succeed as well as you. I got into gross excitement and heard every noice around me with superclarity, and had difficulties keeping focus on the breath.
It's a very good idea, though, and I agree - I hope Yogani will jump in an perhaps have a comment around your alternative suggestion when he finds the time and space for it.
miguel, nice to hear it's working good for you with the fuzzy version! I have always thought that's the way to do it! Reassuring to hear about your experiences! Thanks!
T_I,
I am not familiar with the term "nimitta". For me - everything that has form and is experienced as "something" is covered in the AYP term "scenery" and is enjoyed and then dropped during practices.
I am not really eager to go into discussions of other systems or approaches in this topic, but rather investigate if this is true, as you put it:
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_IcePerhaps I am correct in assuming that the purpose of both mantra repetition and breath awareness meditation is to gain a continuous stream of awareness while maintaining a state of deep relaxation, and that during the process, gross and subtle laxity will occur at which time I should crank up my vividness.
To continue with further associations, the description of the states IS truly very interesting. In which state/-s would you say that your breathing is following the mind? (Question based on the familiar presumption that breathing and mind activity both slow down simultaneously.)
For me - it's perfectly possible to have a very slow breathing (2-3 breaths/min) and a lot of long breath suspensions in between, plus having a totally relaxed body (head hanging down on my chest), and simultaneously being in the gross excitement phase, being out travelling on thought trains all the time... |
Edited by - emc on May 23 2010 1:21:57 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 07:17:23 AM
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Finding this interesting emc, thanks for starting it.
What I wonder about is what exactly fuzzy means?
With the mantra I have found myself going into the edges of the mantra and feeling the lovely feelings of it. To me this is experienced as dwelling in the gap between the mantra and don't find this helpfull. It generally results in fuzziness in the head and lack of clarity.
So now I never allow this to happen and will in these cases keep the mantra clear and clean.
On the other hand the mantra can become very faint and almost disappear into the background, barely perceptable and disappear whilst at the same time it seems to be continueing in the background.
This faintness however is still clear and not fuzzy to me. There is a big difference between this and the dwelling on the nice experience of the mantra.
There also seems to be a relation between the fuzzinees described above and much of the experiences people have around dieties and devotion. I have lots of experience of this in the past and it seems that one can get lost in a fuzziness there also, which can result for me in the same kind of spaciness and detachment from reality.
So whether mantra or breath or dieties, my experience, of what I understand as fuzziness (which may be different to others) is not helpful.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 08:57:38 AM
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Hi all
Sparkle wrote:
quote:
What I wonder about is what exactly fuzzy means?
When saying the mantra once clearly.....it usually feels like being plucked like a string...and the soundfeeling is very blissfull and I let myself fall with it deep inside. If noticing that I am on the bliss and not the mantra, I repeat the mantra...but by then I am deep and the resonance is very faint...so the repeat is just a coming back to this level of it....it is almost just an intention....it is as if the intention of saying is enough. It is enough of a pluck.
The fuzziness is never equated with loss of the quality of the mantra. In fact...the quality of it is enhanced the fainter it is......
Other than that....I never stay on feelings of unclarity or clarity or anything......if I notice I am off the mantra I come back on whatever faint level is there....and if not faint, then say it more clearly..only to be diving with it again...
Have more to say...but got to run...am catching the dart and walking the cliffs of Brey today :)
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 12:20:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi all
Sparkle wrote:
quote:
What I wonder about is what exactly fuzzy means?
When saying the mantra once clearly.....it usually feels like being plucked like a string...and the soundfeeling is very blissfull and I let myself fall with it deep inside. If noticing that I am on the bliss and not the mantra, I repeat the mantra...but by then I am deep and the resonance is very faint...so the repeat is just a coming back to this level of it....it is almost just an intention....it is as if the intention of saying is enough. It is enough of a pluck.
The fuzziness is never equated with loss of the quality of the mantra. In fact...the quality of it is enhanced the fainter it is......
Other than that....I never stay on feelings of unclarity or clarity or anything......if I notice I am off the mantra I come back on whatever faint level is there....and if not faint, then say it more clearly..only to be diving with it again...
Have more to say...but got to run...am catching the dart and walking the cliffs of Brey today :)
Hi Katrine
thanks for that, but not quite sure where the fuzziness is in your experience. The fuzziness I was describing is when I would stay on the bliss(your description) and as we know, this leads to overload.
Does that experience of dropping deep feel fuzzy to you, or is it something else? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 3:06:20 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
After my question on proper mindfulness a while ago, and having read about the type of breath meditation where you keep very alert, I have come to a question on how to perform the AYP version of breath meditation correctly...
In a mindfulness type of breath meditation one should
"attend the object with continuity"
"maintain vividness - not drift off" according to Allan Wallace "The four immeasurables..."
No fuzziness allowed, it seems.
When doing mantra meditation everything is ok, as long as we gently come back to the mantra when we discover we're off it... and the mantra can become more and more fuzzy and subtle...
When doing AYP breath meditation - is it meant to be done the same way as the mantra meditation - the only difference being the object of meditation: coming back to the breath instead of the mantra?
Is it ok to lose the "vividness" or is maintaining the vividness the sort of point with it all, whether mantra or breath meditation?
I have not had the chance to read all the replies yet in this thread, but I thought I'd share my own experience with breathing meditation. Usually at first there are a lot of thoughts present in the mind, and it is a constant process of "coming back to the breath". Then, eventually, the mind begins to rest with the breath, and thoughts subside. At this point the breath can either be very clear and vivid, or it can become very quiet and subtle. It can even seem as if there is no breath at all. Then, if the mind becomes deeper still, it is a sudden shift in consciousness. At this point the physical world is lost to the field of awareness and the breath along with it.
So with regards to fuzziness, yes, the breath can become fuzzy as the consciousness begins to deepen into stillness.
As I understand it the purpose of breathing meditation is not to maintain vivid awareness of the breath at all times, that is just an initial stage. The purpose of breathing meditation for me is twofold. One is to cultivate bliss, which happens when the mind is silent and either resting with the breath, or in a higher state of consciousness beyond bodily awareness. The other is to cultivate the silent mind (witness), so that the real can be distinguished from the unreal and we come to live only in the real (satya) which is our true nature.
All the best,
Christi |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 3:48:14 PM
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Hm. Thanks Louis, Katrine and Christi!
A strong wish is growing here... I'd like to have someone beside me during a meditation who could tell me what I'm doing as it happens! "Now you're distracted by mind" "Now you're having the mind watching the mind" "Now you are drifting off and no stillness cultivation is happening - come back to clarity"
Isn't that the role of a guru? Gah!
Yes, Louis, I wonder about that fuzziness also. It might mean very different things, I guess...
For me it's a drifting off/slacking off. That's why I felt the description of "laxity" was so precise, but hey - now I've read the passage again, and laxity does not seem to fit either... Since it's a contained clarity and awareness in that state. I don't have that. I'm going into a silent unawareness - being "gone". It's most often not accompanied by any bliss. I had nice sensations the first 2 years of AYP practices (vibrating along with the mantra and so on, perhaps similarly to what you describe), and then it lessened more and more and since the latest 1-2 years I seldom have any pleasant sensations at all. When coming back, it does not feel as if I've been sleeping, I can easily come back to the breath - which most often in that situation is no breath, and thus, the breathless state is noticed.
I'd say my morning meditations are mostly in the slow breath, relaxed bodily mode with a spinning mind (as described in a previous post - gross excitation), and my evening meditations are of the type, just described...
I wonder if it cultivates any stillness... doesn't seem to happen anything with the progress here... Therefore the curiosity from reading the book. None of my meditations contain any particular "vivid awareness". |
Edited by - emc on May 24 2010 4:14:36 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 4:51:31 PM
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Hi emc,
I had a guru like that once. Every time my mind wandered off the object of meditation he would click his fingures.
The "drifting off" experience, not accompanied by bliss is quite normal, and is part of the purification process. The bliss states are, in my experience, usually attained by going through the meditation object rather than drifting away from it. There is a merging with the object of meditation, called dhyana, which is the jumping of point for the various levels of samadhi. All the states of samadhi are accompanied by bliss.
quote:
I wonder if it cultivates any stillness... doesn't seem to happen anything with the progress here... Therefore the curiosity from reading the book. None of my meditations contain any particular "vivid awareness".
The purification has to happen. Eventually it is easy to simply rest with the meditation object (the breath) and then to merge with it for the duration of the sitting. So stillness is gradually being cultivated.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 6:01:41 PM
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Hi Louis
quote:
Does that experience of dropping deep feel fuzzy to you, or is it something else?
The experience of dropping does not feel fuzzy. It is just a falling inwards...a smooth dive ... after being called to do so by the mantra....and then when deep inside.... It is very still. Until the attention is noticed to be on something else....for example on the quality of the bliss.... and then the repeat of the mantra happens again.
The faintness of the mantra seems to be the same as the fuzziness here. The first is describing the faintness of the sound of it, the second the form of the sound. And if we by fuzziness...mean that the mantra looses it's edges...then yes.....I experience this. But I experience this..and the faintness.... before dropping every time after that first saying of it at the beginning of meditation.. In other words...the fuzziness or the faintness is for me always related to the very repetition of the mantra. The dropping itself is something else. It is like diving with the resonance of the mantra and then landing in a sea of silence that also can swallow even the the very noticing itself.
It is not easy describing this...it is so subtle....so I don't know if this made it any clearer Louis....
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 05:25:09 AM
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Thanks Katrine
quote:
The faintness of the mantra seems to be the same as the fuzziness here.
Yes, that's very clear and is what I was getting at, whether the word fuzziness was equated with faintness.
That's the trouble with words, they can mean different things to different people.
Fuzziness however is something I have to be careful of as this is currently my first sign of overload and that is why I am particularly interested in it.
Also from a teaching perspcetive, to be able to distinguish between fuzziness equated with faintness, and fuzziness equated with overload. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 05:40:18 AM
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Hi Louis
quote:
Also from a teaching perspcetive, to be able to distinguish between fuzziness equated with faintness, and fuzziness equated with overload.
I see....
Yes.....well then here fuzziness equated with faintness always means that it looses it's boarders....it is all over the place. While fuzziness equated with overload is like being drowned in the energy instead of in the silence. Or as you describe it: Unclarity.
Thanks for making a point of this. It is something I have never been confronted with while teaching, but now that it is clarified.....it may make it easier for me to pick up sooner when someone (myself included) is experiencing overload in this particular way. |
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innercall
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 11:23:59 AM
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Hi Louis,
Thanks for your explanations on fuzziness. For me fuzziness really equate with overload since 2-3 minutes of meditation was the more I could take. I just didn't tought I could or should stay out of this fuzzy state. Now I realise I can stay aware of the breath while coming back to a clearer awareness of it when I realise it is getting fuzzy. This way, I feel I am more active, more present in the process of meditation. This is all so subtle but I think I was mistaking fuzzy with faint but thanks to this post, I think I understand how it can be faint without fuzziness.
The experience of faintness or fuzziness during meditation probably changes with the specific matrix of obstructions of each individuals and we probably have no real power over it. Nonetheless, I have found helpfull for the past couple of days to add an extra control over the process of meditation to stay out of the fuzzy state. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 12:39:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by innercall
Nonetheless, I have found helpful for the past couple of days to add an extra control over the process of meditation to stay out of the fuzzy state.
Hi Innercall:
Adding "extra control" over the procedure of meditation during sittings can reduce overload because it reduces the effectiveness of the meditation by increasing the role of mind rather than allowing transcendence of mind to stillness. It will be good to be clear about that.
Making distinctions between clear, faint or fuzzy object (breath or mantra) and aiming for one over the other during sittings of meditation is not AYP procedure.
I understand you are seeking to smooth the effects due to sensitivity, and you will do whatever is necessary for that, as you should. However, labeling fuzzy object of meditation as less correct meditation than other manifestations (clear, faint, etc.) of breath or mantra is not AYP procedure. Making these distinctions during practice is reducing the power/effectiveness of the meditation, and that is what you are noticing. It is obviously not what everyone should be doing, as it could lead many away from effective practice.
What others may be teaching about the regulation of states of the object of meditation during practice is for them to teach, and the results will be there accordingly.
By "fuzzy," I mean natural loss of clarity of breath awareness or pronunciation of mantra. Allowing this and coming back to the object of meditation wherever it may be is part of the procedure of meditation. Fuzziness is an indication of attention naturally going deeper and residing in inner silence. For sensitive meditators, this may equate to "fast transcending," with possible excessive purification and opening happening. We looked at several ways to mitigate sensitivity in Lesson 367. Regulating the experience of the object of meditation during sittings was not one of the ways discussed there. Which is not to say it has no merit. From the AYP perspective, exploration of this approach by sensitive meditators would be additional research, and reports on results are welcome.
However, such regulation of states of the object of meditation during sittings is not recommended for those practicing AYP deep meditation who do not have sensitivity issues.
Just wanted to clarify that AYP does not add "extra control" in deep meditation practice. The lack of extra control is a primary reason why AYP deep meditation is as powerful and effective as it is. Sensitive meditators can find less power and more stability in the way you describe, but it is not a habit of meditation procedure I would encourage for most.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 4:26:01 PM
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Thanks for jumping in, Yogani. Just to be perfectly clear on this, is the following correctly understood?
quote:
When doing AYP breath meditation - is it meant to be done the same way as the mantra meditation - the only difference being the object of meditation: coming back to the breath instead of the mantra?
Yes
quote:
Is it ok to lose the "vividness" or is maintaining the vividness the sort of point with it all, whether mantra or breath meditation?
It's ok to lose vividness. Keeping clarity by effort is not the point in AYP DM.
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It also had me wonder if those are the stages expected to happen also with AYP Deep meditation...? Are the descriptions valid also for developmental stages in AYP meditation?
No.
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I guess I have trusted the I AM mantra will take care of it naturally and deepen the meditation anyhow, but will the same happen with breath meditation, or will it be necessary to then "bring in a spark of vividness" to be on the right track?
AYP DM is done the same way no matter the object of meditation - mantra or breath. Stillness will take care of it naturally with or without the mantra.
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Is it implied that "vividness" will come naturally, so it goes without saying? Or is vividness not considered important in AYP DM?
I assume the one who gets there will know what type of clarity/awareness/vividness there is in the moment... No use discussing.
If this is correctly understood, I'll just continue to mind spin or fade away and comfortably escape the world then in my breathing meditation AYP style and wait for miracles to happen. Probably years ahead as it feels now...   |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 5:11:38 PM
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Hi emc:
Yes on all counts, with two caveats:
1. Breath meditation does not usually go as deep as mantra meditation, because once breath suspends there is no object. Mantra can go much deeper. This difference is why breath meditation is one of the options suggested in Lesson 367 for those who are very sensitive with mantra.
2. The AYP approach to breath and mantra meditation does not define how other systems of meditation ought to be done. Nor does it invalidate them. One style is not another style, and it is generally best not to mix styles together. That is why I chimed in here. Some procedures have been discussed here that are not AYP. That is okay as long as we are not overrunning one style of practice with another style. That is when effectiveness on both sides can be lost.
Of course, there is always research, and the opportunity for improvement in self-directed practice. In that, it is important to preserve a baseline system of practices, and explore alternatives without distorting the baseline. Otherwise, we could get lost in a sea of alternative approaches, with no "safe harbor" to return to.
The guru is in you.
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 6:18:25 PM
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The simply ayp breath procedure is amazing.Been using it as daily practice since 7 months ago and all i can say is that its a powerful tool over the long term.Very important aspect.
Its bringing much joy and development here.
Slef pacing is the best ayp tool and the good news about this tool is that all the people can put it in to practice,as well as karma yoga and some self inquiry.I have reached periods of much inner silence and inspiration and openings-experiences using this tool along this 7 months.
For me is really deep and easy to practice=advanced practice/less is more.
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Edited by - miguel on May 25 2010 6:19:17 PM |
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ConsciousEvolution
India
29 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2010 : 04:29:48 AM
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Interesting thread!
I've been practicing AYP DM for several months. It seems like whenever I am aware of thinking the mantra at whatever level it is, I am also aware of the breath. When I become aware that I am lost in thoughts or whatever it may be, I favor the mantra, but that seems to remagnetize my attention on the breath. I would consider myself a "normal" or "undersensitive" practitioner by the way. My questions is, since Yogani has mentioned several times that concentrating or favoring two objects simultaneously reduces the effectiveness of the meditation process, would it not be better for me to practice breath meditation AYP rather than practicing what inadvertently comes out as mantra+breath medtiation?
Thank you kindly. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2010 : 05:32:23 AM
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Conscious,
Is pretty normal to experience breath and mantra at the same time.It happens and the advice is to allow it and let it flow.It will not happen always,there will be much moments when you will trascend the breath and only will be mantra repetition. mantra plus breath is part of the mantra meditation process,and i think it happens mostly in the first steps with it.With time youll forget the breath cz you will be going deeper and deeper.
Dont change to breath meditation if you can have an stable mantra meditation.Mantra meditation is better for you and much more powerful than breath.Youll have more benefits with mantra.
namasté. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2010 : 07:56:08 AM
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Hi ConsciousEvolution,
I agree with what Miguel says.
quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Dont change to breath meditation if you can have an stable mantra meditation.Mantra meditation is better for you and much more powerful than breath.Youll have more benefits with mantra.
namasté.
If ever you find your focus on the mantra and breath, gently favor the mantra. Like Miguel says, it will not be like that forever. |
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innercall
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2010 : 1:07:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by innercall
Nonetheless, I have found helpful for the past couple of days to add an extra control over the process of meditation to stay out of the fuzzy state.
Hi Innercall:
Adding "extra control" over the procedure of meditation during sittings can reduce overload because it reduces the effectiveness of the meditation by increasing the role of mind rather than allowing transcendence of mind to stillness. It will be good to be clear about that.
Making distinctions between clear, faint or fuzzy object (breath or mantra) and aiming for one over the other during sittings of meditation is not AYP procedure.
Hi Yogani,
Thanks for making this clear to me and to everyone else. I guess you are right and it is only a way to keep the meditation less effective. For the couple of days that I have tried it that way (with a little emphasis on clarity), it seems to have permitted me to overcome a phase where I was stuck. Now I can meditate 10 minutes while easily coming back to the awareness of the breath without creating overloads and I am not even sure I use more control than what is required to come back to the breath when I notice I left it. I will continue to explore this but I will also make sure I remember that less is more and that extra control in meditation is not a habit to keep forever.
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AYP breath meditation for oversensitive
