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John C
USA
76 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 30 2010 : 3:36:49 PM
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Dear forum members,
I was wondering if any of you have experience with the vipassana jhanas. I recall some discussion a few months ago about Daniel Ingram's book, which says that this was the practice of the Buddha during his lifetime. Apparently, the energetic phenomena occur during the first two jhanic levels, but then drop away leaving joy and then equinimity in the higher jhanas. Any words of experience on this? Arhats out there? |
Edited by - John C on Mar 31 2010 04:47:24 AM |
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2010 : 04:59:51 AM
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(edited: was it just me or did you edit your post into something else?)
Hello John,
I've read Daniel's book and practiced what it writes up to stream-entry. I really don't think we're dealing with two different things here.
I have some unqualified conjectures on how the burmese pure insight practice works. I think that in this practice, enlightenment is obtained by working directly on the sahasrara and nirvana chakras (this is my guess from reading Shyam Sundar Goswami's Layayoga book).
In my experience, mahasi-style noting practice increases energy levels in the brain tremendously. This happens when you persistently investigate the three characteristics (impermanence, suffering and no-self) of all perceptions. By persistently I mean 12-18 hours a day for many days! At first this increase of energy gives a sensation of euphoria, but then unpleasant stuff starts getting loose, as in any process of purification, leading to a sensation of depression. Persistent investigation eventually leads to a state of equanimity: the mind is still very powerful, but perception is now well integrated. This allows you to see very panoramic stuff such as the sensations implying time and space, as well as your whole body, arising and passing away (as impermanent, unsatisfactory, not me).
When perception becomes panoramic enough, the energy gets sucked into some place in the head, in a small instant, and one has the first experience of nirvana. At least that's how it felt for me. It is awesome, a great relief, and I highly recommend it.
However, during the following weeks dissolution continued happening with great intensity. I clearly felt that if I continued to practice pure insight, I would progress in the way that Daniel describes in his book (endless cycles of euphoria-depression). This is because energy kept getting sucked into the head region, and not go down, which would require it to be "processed" in the same way as before, going through the ñanas. So now I've engaged in purifying the nervous system as a whole, rather than doing pure insight practices. This seems to result in energy being well distributed all over the body, and prevents the very difficult dark night periods of pure insight practice. I've also learned to slow down so that practice doesn't interrupt my daily life.
Because if there's any "philosophical" conclusion that I've acquired through insight practice, it is that satisfaction isn't "over there." No phenomenon is inherently satisfactory: be it your dream-car or super-powered cosmic orgasms. Satisfaction isn't about getting what's over there, it's about wanting what's right here right now. So I concluded that a practice that interferes with daily life, for the sake of some enlightenment or mental state that's "over there," is a practice I'm not interested in. In the dharmaoverground.org site, a community much like this one created by Daniel Ingram and friends, the idea that enlightenment is some permanent, awesome state that is somehow "over there" (transcendent, "it") sometimes goes by the name of "Daniel's greatest mistake," because apparently was the greatest obstacle to Daniel attaining arhatship.
Again, I highly recommend you go for nirvana, which is perfectly possible, and probably easy in your case after years of purifying the body. Make no mistake, this is simply working with the crown as described in this site. But don't think it is somehow different or "it," in opposition to "materialistic pursuits," that are not "it." Heck it is very possible that you already experienced nirvana, but didn't notice; this happens a lot in meditators from the historically later traditions, where, contrary to early buddhism, little emphasis is placed in the (non-)experience of nirvana.
Bruno |
Edited by - brunoloff on Mar 31 2010 05:10:58 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2010 : 12:45:43 PM
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I recommend getting real experience with nondualism. The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is a very high teaching. Honestly I do not see much difference between the Power of Now and the highest buddhist texts. The only reason why Buddhists don't like it is because Tolle uses the term Self sometimes. If he hadn't, Buddhists would have embraced it.
Then you must use yoga to achieve Buddhahood, as you are driven by the compassioniate insight you gained from the nondual
I am coming from the Mahayana point of view however. Also I am not a teacher, so keep that in mind. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Mar 31 2010 12:56:13 PM |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2010 : 02:35:17 AM
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Thanks Bruno,
Your comments are of interest. I guess what interests me is that Daniel Ingram posits levels of awareness that are identifiable as one rests in each one and progresses through a series of levels of jhanic awareness. In my sittings, starting with awareness on the anapanasati, subsequently, thought ceases, thus sense of separate self ceases at such time, and there is just resting in awareness, an energy field of golden shimmering light and vibration, free of thought, free of pleasure and pain, beyond sense of time passing, or body awareness. It seems neither Nirvana nor non-Nivrana, nor any quantifiable experience, and only on re-entry to the more mundane consciousness does it become apparent what had been happening. Whether you theorize that this is resting awareness in Sahasrara or beyond is hard to say. I hope to read the other books that Daniel Ingram lists since he claims that The Buddha found this system useful, and that this apparently was his methodology personally. Tell more about the mechanics of your practice in plain English. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2010 : 4:09:55 PM
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| The Buddha practiced yoga, even kechari mudra. The jhanas are trance states, the same as for doing a WILD/OBE. |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2010 : 5:06:47 PM
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Hi Alwayson,
So what basis do you have to say that the Buddha did Khechari mudra? Is there any references on that in the Pali canon or elsewhere?
And by that do you mean the more advanced Khechari mudra above the soft palate?
And what other yogic practices are you referring to?
thanks |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2010 : 11:36:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
Hi Alwayson,
So what basis do you have to say that the Buddha did Khechari mudra? Is there any references on that in the Pali canon or elsewhere?
Yes in the Pali canon. Read this doctoral thesis.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7401
quote:
Originally posted by John C
And by that do you mean the more advanced Khechari mudra above the soft palate?
I am not sure if a minor distinction like that would come across in the translation.
quote:
Originally posted by John C
And what other yogic practices are you referring to?
Just basic trance meditation:
1. Do a big yawning stretch as if really tired
2. Have a seat and contract and relax all muscle groups starting from the feet, going up
3. Do another big yawing stretch
4. Sit in a Lazy boy recliner or such and RELAX
From here you should be doing all spiritual activities including meditation, spinal breathing etc.
From here you can enter into the jhanas and access clairvoyance etc. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Apr 02 2010 12:35:50 AM |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2010 : 2:28:22 PM
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Hi Alwayson,
You really should provide some documentation that the Buddha utilized khechari mudra and other yogas in his personal sadhana if you are going to make those assertions. This wasn't the point of my starting this thread on the jhanas, but I feel that I need to address your comments, for the record. |
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2010 : 06:05:41 AM
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John C: Tell more about the mechanics of your practice in plain English.
Well, since stream-entry I've been doing mostly AYP. Stuff gets released pretty easily nowadays, and I am currently self-pacing, not doing any practice for three weeks now, grounding a lot, etc.
I did two retreats. One with goenka-style body scanning practice (basically you scan the body for sensations from head to toe over and over again), and one with mahasi-style noting practice (read "Practical Insight Meditation" by Mahasi Sayadaw, available for free on the internet). Both retreats involved meditating 12-14h a day. I learned a lot about purification in the first retreat, which I systematically applied together with the mahasi-style practice in the second retreat (where I got stream-entry). So I have a hard time saying which practice is the most powerful, maybe mahasi.
Off-retreat, I would follow the breath as well as I could, 30m-2h a day; if some sensation would bug me and demand attention, I would use it as an object of meditation instead.
The whole process from beginning meditation to stream-entry took me nine months, from March '09 to December 30, with the Goenka retreat happening in August.
In my understanding, the word "jhana" can mean different things in different contexts. In the context of concentration-meditation, a "jhana" is a stable aspect of the mind. "Stable" implies that it is possible, with enough practice, to maintain the mind in such a state for as long as desired.
In the context of insight practices, the four jhanas are the four phases of purification. First jhana is effort, second jhana is the initial release of tension, usually accompanied by an euphoric rush and minute vibrations, in third jhana the vibrations become wider and shake the tension loose very strongly, which is unpleasant, and after release there is the fourth jhana, made up of very wide, panoramic vibrations, when the tension is finally being integrated. When it integrates, you get inner silence.
This can happen anywhere in the body, and in this community the process is usually referred to as purification, openings, releases, etc. I think these burmese guys did a good job in describing it with more detail. At least it certainly matches my experience.
When this four-part process happens up in the brain, you can divide the whole thing further, into what is called the "vipassana nanas," which are 15 from effort to fruition. Each stage is accompanied by specific emotional and cognitive aspects. This is what is described in the "nanas and jhanas" table, that you can find on Daniel Ingram's web site. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2010 : 08:46:22 AM
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Hi John,
Welcome back. 
It does look likely that the Buddha practiced kechari mudra. In the Pali Cannon there is a description given by him where he says that he pressed the tongue against the roof of his mouth as a spiritual practice. It was during the 6 years that he spent performing extreme forms of yoga practice after leaving his wife and child. He had at least two different teachers during this time. At the end of the 6 years he decided to give up extreme forms of practice, and to practice meditation and inquiry practices whilst eating food each day.
On the subject of the jhanas, it isn't really a choice between purification practices or samadhi practices. Purification practices support entry into samadhi, and entry into samadhi brings about purification. So the two work together. The Buddha could not have done what he did under the Bhodi tree, if he had not spent 6 years purifying his body. From there it was a natural progression for him to engage in meditation, and then to include inquiry practice.
In AYP we go about it in a slightly different order. We begin with meditation, add on purification practices and then include inquiry practice. It is not that different.
If you are finding that addiction to the ecstatic aspect of awakening is disturbing your meditations, then you could try cutting back on those practices which directly cultivate ecstasy, and concentrate more on meditation. Eventually you will find that ecstasy does not disturb your state of mind, but actually carries you higher on the wings of freedom. It becomes a blessing rather than a distraction.
All the best,
Christi |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2010 : 2:35:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
Hi Alwayson,
You really should provide some documentation that the Buddha utilized khechari mudra and other yogas in his personal sadhana if you are going to make those assertions. This wasn't the point of my starting this thread on the jhanas, but I feel that I need to address your comments, for the record.
It is in James Mallinson's doctoral thesis, with specific verses from the Pali canon!!!!
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7401
I already addressed this. Did you miss my reply above? Did you bother to read it?
What do you mean by providing documentation, other than this? |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Apr 03 2010 3:25:51 PM |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2010 : 4:08:36 PM
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Dear Cristi,
I believe that once the travelling mendicant monk known as Siddhartha, sat under the Bodhi Tree and reached Buddhahood, that he continued the Jhanic practices of meditation that he had learned from two od his teachers during his apprenticeship, but after Enlightenment, he formulated the Middle Way, which eschews fasting, and yogic techniques, including khechari mudra.
That's assuming he ever did the advanced khechari mudra during his earlier years as Siddhartha. So that's my take on the historical Buddha. I welcome any information you might have to indicate the Buddha continued any yogic practices such as the advanced stages of khechari mudra or any other esoteric yogic practices. Just asking, with no offense intended. Just for the record. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2010 : 4:31:13 PM
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Hi John,
quote:
Dear Cristi,
I believe that once the travelling mendicant monk known as Siddhartha, sat under the Bodhi Tree and reached Buddhahood, that he continued the Jhanic practices of meditation that he had learned from two od his teachers during his apprenticeship, but after Enlightenment, he formulated the Middle Way, which eschews fasting, and yogic techniques, including khechari mudra.
That's assuming he ever did the advanced khechari mudra during his earlier years as Siddhartha. So that's my take on the historical Buddha. I welcome any information you might have to indicate the Buddha continued any yogic practices such as the advanced stages of khechari mudra or any other esoteric yogic practices. Just asking, with no offense intended. Just for the record.
I've never seen any indication that the Buddha practiced the advanced stages of kechari mudra. I've only seen that one statement of his that I mentioned about putting the tongue to the roof of the mouth. And yes, according to the texts, and as far as I know, after his six years of extreme practices and periods of fasting, he gave up all yogic practices except for the practices of breath based meditation (anapanasati), inquiry (vipassana) and keeping the yamas (vinaya). The only other practice that I believe he did, and which he taught, is called the four foundations of mindfulness practice. I discussed this here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=6503#58614
All the best,
Christi |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2010 : 08:29:08 AM
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Thanks for the clarification Christi. That helps set the record straight for me on The Buddha's practices, and seems consistent with what I have been studying lately, namely, The Path of Serenity and Insight by Henepola Gunaratana, a Theravedin monastic. Probably many people here are familiar with this text, an exposition on the jhanic meditation techniques the Buddha practiced and taught.
My next question for you or Bruno, concerns the Kasinas for jhanic meditation, which involves concentrating on a visual image of something, and then developing the ability to visualize the same image clearly with eyes closed, and ultimately, to be able to do so for long periods of time. What are the nuts and bolts of that practice? This seems a little peculiar somehow. There must be a way to bypass this practice, say by using the breath awareness instead, or utilizing the yellow disc perception or the bindu dot that appears during meditations. Since those images occur naturally with meditation, without the need for some fabrication, That's my hunch on Kasina visualization. Maybe Bruno can answer that one.
Thanks to everyone for allowing me to continue asking these questions. I am grateful for the opportunity of this communication.
My hope for utilizing this thread, is not really for advice on my personal meditative practice, which I feel is pretty much anchored in the sadhana I have developed over the last ten years, but rather than advice I am just asking for explanations and for practical nuts and bolts information, that is often glossed over in the formal literature of meditative practices, if you know what I mean. |
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2010 : 3:55:26 PM
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John I have no experience in Kasina meditation. It is supposed to be a powerful way to improve concentration, because it works with the visual nervous system (I think read somewhere that eye movement is a great impediment to good concentration).
Maybe you can check out the Kasina thread:
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/gue...ssage/380531 |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2010 : 4:23:33 PM
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Hi John,
I also have no experience with that practice. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2010 : 5:15:14 PM
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Hi John,
quote:
My hope for utilizing this thread, is not really for advice on my personal meditative practice, which I feel is pretty much anchored in the sadhana I have developed over the last ten years, but rather than advice I am just asking for explanations and for practical nuts and bolts information, that is often glossed over in the formal literature of meditative practices, if you know what I mean.
Sorry to bring up aspects of your personal practice. I was just answering the questions that you asked in your first post. I forgot that you edited it heavily, taking the questions about your personal practice out. I won't mention them again.
Christi |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2010 : 6:36:35 PM
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Hi Bruno,
So kasina meditation is not necessary in the system you follow?
The link you gave is a great place to look for information on this.
Hi Christi,
Thanks for your information as well. Trataka has been useful to me in the past, and this sounds like a similar development of the visual cortex as kasina, but with vipassana investigation added in this system.
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2010 : 04:12:53 AM
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| @John: not at all, although it can't be said that I follow any specific system whatsoever Some people at dharmaoverground.org recommend kasina practice until concentration is good enough that insight meditation can be done. |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2010 : 04:22:22 AM
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I love that book. Have you read that one Bruno? The Path of Serenity and Insight.
I'm going to have to try the kasinas. |
Edited by - John C on Apr 06 2010 04:39:46 AM |
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John C
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2010 : 2:04:43 PM
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In light of the books on the jhanas, with descriptions of the immaterial jhanas, and so on, I do believe these are not foreign to us yogis' perceptions doing our usual daily meditative sadhanas.
The eighth immaterial jhana is an at-first-startling culmination of meditative practice, where the perception of separate ego identity drops away, as the thought stream ceases, and also any sense of the physical body, and there is just awareness of light globally. And when leaving this level, there is resumption of thought and of time and body awarenesses.
I'm sure others here could corroborate this.
Nevertheless, the kasina meditation practices of visualization should be a useful project, don't you think to recruit the visual cortex into this fully?. That's my take. I really appreciate being able to run this by you folks. Thanks for your feedback in advance. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2010 : 7:17:46 PM
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Hi John,
quote:
My next question for you or Bruno, concerns the Kasinas for jhanic meditation, which involves concentrating on a visual image of something, and then developing the ability to visualize the same image clearly with eyes closed, and ultimately, to be able to do so for long periods of time. What are the nuts and bolts of that practice? This seems a little peculiar somehow. There must be a way to bypass this practice, say by using the breath awareness instead, or utilizing the yellow disc perception or the bindu dot that appears during meditations. Since those images occur naturally with meditation, without the need for some fabrication, That's my hunch on Kasina visualization. Maybe Bruno can answer that one.
Although I've never practiced the kasinas, the method seems pretty straigt forward. It is, as you say, a form of tratak, so it is used for developing concentration and samadhi. It would have the advantage over breath meditation, that the object is not lost once awareness of the body is lost.
But breath meditation can also be used for entering jhanic absorbtion, along with some practice such as the four foundations to overcome the problem of the loss of the breath in deep samadhi. Deep Meditation can also be used of course, which, incidentally is also a form of tratak, and also has the advantage that the object of meditation is not lost when bodily awareness is lost.
Lots of choices.
Christi |
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2010 : 02:40:46 AM
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John C, I also found out this exercise, by chance, and I'm convinced it purifies the visual cortex: go out on a sunny day, on a late afternoon or early morning, when the sun isn't too strong; look directly at the sun with the eyelids closed for a minute or two; there should be some light, and it should increase as you do this; the look away, still with the eyes closed, maybe cover your eyes with your palms, and let it settle into darkness. Repeat a few times, or not, as it suits you. Now open your eyes.
That's the exercise. When I do it, it seems to stimulate the visual cortex, and the quality of visual experience will be very refined. I'm guessing that with repeated long-term practice it would lead to some serious change, but I have only done the exercise sporadically. During the settling phase, there are all sort of weird visual sparks and stuff going on. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2010 : 09:43:47 AM
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brunoloff,
I think you are playing around with the famed Purkinje hallucination |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2010 : 2:28:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
Nevertheless, the kasina meditation practices of visualization should be a useful project, don't you think to recruit the visual cortex into this fully?. That's my take. I really appreciate being able to run this by you folks. Thanks for your feedback in advance.
I find this thread very interesting.
I thought I would just notify you that some people claim visualisation can never get you as deep as focusing on energy itself or a sensation by itself. I have seen this discussion only with regards to energy practices were energy is moved were it is discussed wether to use visualisation or just intent so it might be different than a frozen visualisation. I have no clue about any of this but have experiemented a little bit with trying to shut of imagery all thogther, just focusing away from whatever mental imagery I have and this apears to take me much deeper much quicker.
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2010 : 03:40:31 AM
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| @alwayson2: Not really, I don't experience any moving images while I do it. After reading about these hallucinations (interesting stuff!), there is a considerable difference with the exercise I've mentioned: One does not flicker the light on and off, one stays with the sunlight behind the eyelids for a minute or two, then rest for a minute or two. It's a bit as if the sunlight was massaging the visual cortex. |
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jhanas
