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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 12:37:52 AM
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Hi guys,
I think this deserves to have a topic of it's own. All in favor of laser frenum cut for Kechari 2.0 please say Ay! and the ones not in favor of it please say why :)
My story?
I've been practicing Kechari step 1 together with other AYP practices for some time. I have booked for a laser frenum cut here: http://www.smileconcepts.com.au/ton...ctomies.html
The reason why I'm going for the laser cut is that my tongue is generally short and I think even after cutting the frenum I would probably have the long journey of streching and milking my tongue ahead of me :) So I thought maybe I can get the laser cut to see clearly how much I'm short :) and then take it from there.
Am I ready?
I'm not sure. Kechari 1 gives me just enough pleasure to wanna do it - nothing more than that. But even if I'm not ready I know I'll be ready at some stage either in this life or next so why not do the surgery now?
I appreciate your comments. |
Edited by - Emil on Jan 27 2010 12:41:43 AM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 5:54:18 PM
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Hi Emil,
I see nothing wrong with it. If it helps, and you're aware of the possible risks, then more power to you 
I hope it goes well!
Peace
cosmic |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 11:02:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Emil
Hi guys,
I think this deserves to have a topic of it's own. All in favor of laser frenum cut for Kechari 2.0 please say Ay! and the ones not in favor of it please say why :)
My story?
I've been practicing Kechari step 1 together with other AYP practices for some time. I have booked for a laser frenum cut here: http://www.smileconcepts.com.au/ton...ctomies.html
The reason why I'm going for the laser cut is that my tongue is generally short and I think even after cutting the frenum I would probably have the long journey of streching and milking my tongue ahead of me :) So I thought maybe I can get the laser cut to see clearly how much I'm short :) and then take it from there.
Am I ready?
I'm not sure. Kechari 1 gives me just enough pleasure to wanna do it - nothing more than that. But even if I'm not ready I know I'll be ready at some stage either in this life or next so why not do the surgery now?
I appreciate your comments.
Hi Emil,
Aye, Aye, says I!
No reason not to do it, I'd say.
Safe, convenient, fast; why not?
I looked into this myself, a few years ago ... but it was way beyond my budget at the time, and I ended up getting into Khechari Stage 2 more quickly/easily than I'd expected to ... and so, ended up not feeling the need.
I do know of one person who had the laser procedure done, and was able to enter Khechari immediately, but "didn't really feel anything".
In retrospect, this makes sense; all mudras, bandhas and yogic energy experiences are like this.
If someone is able to get into Khechari via snipping, laser or other means (stretching, etc.) physically, but doesn't have the bhakti/energy preparation ... khechari mudra may seem anti-climatic.
However, if that's the case, I would say that once you are able to enter khechari (thanks to the laser procedure, in your case), just make it part of your practice, and the energy/bhakti will "catch up".
For instance, most people experience spinal breathing, that way:
You don't feel much for a while, then you kinda-sorta maybe feel something; then you *definitely* feel something .... whether as a steady-moderate kind of sensation ... or extremely blissful-ecstatic (everyone's experience varies).
Khechari is like that, too; some people who jump into it don't feel much.
Others, who are highly prepped as I was; I was in "Advanced Stage 1" daily, for months, and had a LOT of ecstatic conductivity going per my other AYP practices ..... and so khechari mudra felt like it ignited my overall bhakti and energy, when I finally got there.
However, the important point is:
ALL practices tend to kind of end up in the same place .... whether little is felt, a moderate amount is felt, or over-the-top ecstasy is felt ... that's ultimately not what any practice is about.
ALL bodily practices are for providing a support structure for the experience of full/fulfilled awareness (realization/enlightenment).
Khechari can be important in this regard ... but so are a lot of other practices, and, as Yogani points out: Khechari can be of major benefit .... but not as a stand-alone practice. Rather, the key the Khechari being a "leg-up" (or, more accurately tongue-up  ) ... is to integrate it over time with the rest of your daily meditation and practices.
Candidly, when I entered Khechari at first, I was still looking-hoping for a magic bullet .... a fast-track to enlightenment.
There isn't one; like physical exercise, it's a matter of how we methodically utilize our body, mind and awareness over time ... this is what creates the "realization rich environment" in our body-mind.
There's no fast track to enlightenment.
But there is a real one.
And AYP provides the foundation as well, or better than any system in history, based on what I know.
Which isn't necessarily a lot; I just know:
AYP Works.
And that's infinitely more than enough.
And so, in conclusion: Go For It.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 11:34:18 PM
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| Seems like the safest way to go to me as long as its not too expensive. I wonder if it will need to be done more than once to get the full effect. Personally I have no experience with laser surgery but cutting teh frenum under a doctors care seems right to me |
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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 08:13:36 AM
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Thanks Cosmic :)
Kirtanman, I understand your point. Currently I'm in the "kinda-sorta maybe feel something" in SBP practice but during Yoni Mudra I'm in "*definitely* feel something" stage. Throughout the day I'm in the "hoping for better days" state! Now I'm "kinda-sorta hoping maybe" kechari 2 can make my SBP and my "throughout the day" feel like my Yoni Mudra :)) As you can see I'm not asking for too much :))
Hi Victor, Thanks, your comment was quite encouraging. I also think I would need more than just one laser cut session because my tongue is nowhere near where it should be at the moment. At least I'd need some good milking time ahead :) The cost is not cheap and couple of holidays would be sacrificed :)
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 01:19:19 AM
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i dunno anythin bt i can say that khechari stage 2 n 3 can be accomplished by talavya kriya in 2 weeks or maybe one. bt that i mean talavya kriya being practised lik 400 times daily. bt still i guess even if teh higher stages are accomplished, the overall gettin-into teh sushumna is more important. maybe then khechari will be effective more. or prolly the 'cutting of the knot' will occur over time in khechari 1-3+.
about stretching the tongue, sayin it might damage the connective tissues in it.
http://www.curebum.com/37/how-to-ma...a-technique/
"When jhivana kriya frees the tongue from the bottom of the mouth, dolana kriya can then really begin to achieve its purpose: The lengthening and strengthening of the tongue to an extraordinary degree. Under the operations of prana, this is done in such a way that the connective tissues, tendons, etc. are kept strong and intact as they elongate. When people attempt to stretch it out willfully, these connective tissues are damaged. The consequence is that a tongue mutilated in such a way will never be able to complete khecari mudra."
chk ths out too
"...is now able to slide its way up behind the soft palate. At this point, it locates a juncture of bone on the underside of the skull. This is referred to as the “Gate of Brahma” in the Yogakundali Upanishad, and it is said that “even the Devas (Gods) are unable to open it.” In other texts it is referred to as the “tenth gate.”
What now happens is that the elongated and strengthened tongue begins to apply extreme pressure to this juncture, and literally breaks it open. When this occurs, the tongue is then able to slide up into the cranial cavity and actually begin to apply direct pressure upon various parts of the brain."
so much to khechari stages. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 01:28:51 AM
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i did also read that khechari occurs its own; teh tongue itself inserts into the nasopharyngeal cavity after a few 1000 hrs of practise
http://kriyaguru.com/pranayama.aspx
bt even then, i read the talvya kriya is to be practised for maybe 3-4 or few months ofcourse alonwith the regular sadhana.. tehn teh aspirant decides whter its time to attempt khechari. then teh fingers are to be used to help puch teh base of the tonge.
talavya kriya n 1 week is wat i guess would be required for the average person. the frenum stretches due to this kriya. also maybe it has other impacts. certainly laser cuttin would be ok imo only if the aspirant's tongue is willin to go back n kriyas for assitin in completin are not working - talavya, jivahana, dolana .. dunno how many are there..
so to further sum is up, i think a guru's attention is required |
Edited by - fcry64 on Jan 30 2010 03:33:38 AM |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 03:40:13 AM
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also i had talked to mangeshdaji of the sadguru kriya yoga foundation - he too said that 'jibh sthul hote' .. in our native devnagari lang(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5188/wwwq.jpg), when i had askd him abt gettin into khechari n stretching the tongue/frenum n cuttin of the frenum to get into khechari. wat he meant by that i think is that the tongue is rendered incapable of the subtle performance. this is wat has been troubling me lately. i had stretchd n held the tongue ina stretched position a few times for a few minutes. dunno wat have i done :( . he said it as soon as i made a tongue stretchin gesture by hand n said 'stretchin...
so to be on the safe side ..if i have messed up i dnt want my bros n mothers to mess up.. i d read that the organ can get damaged if u rush in stretchin. cant say about frenum stretching tho... i would guess only kriyas that dont involve manual physical stretching of the tongue by hand/tongs/cloth should behonoured. cause the manual stretchin is also difficult. and maybe ghee might be the ingredient for elongation n reducing risk if the stretching is practised.. so also i read taht it should be practised under a guru's guidance .. teh physical performace n the rising of ecstatic conductivity counts bt wat if soemthin else comes into picture if the tongue is stretched physically by external activity(activity/kriya other than that done by teh tongue itself) .. so to follow the path w/o trouble will be to take care of these micro things that do require attention. and simply put one aint sensitive enuf. jus my opinion tho. pls people be a bit more careful. |
Edited by - fcry64 on Jan 30 2010 04:28:20 AM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 05:33:36 AM
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| Stretchig the tongue is totally harmless. That is how I learned kechari. I used to go for long drives for work and I would pla with my tongue stretching it in different directions, pulling it, stretching it up, to the sides etc. That is how I learned kechari, now kechari is very easy and absolutely no ill effects to my tongue at all, it just has more range of motion. Snipping can do harm if done incorrectly but I see no harm at all in stretching the tongue, certainly no more harm than stretching any other part of the body. the tongue heals very rapidly from any damage or injury so I would not worry about this. |
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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 02:28:12 AM
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Hi Victor,
I think fcry64 is talking about pulling the tongue with hand and other objects and that's what he considers risky where as what you did from what I understand is streching the tongue by itself without pulling it. (I'm assuming your hands were busy since you were driviving :D)
Can you please explain how your stretching exercise works or provide a link if it's already been discussed elsewhere in the forums.
Thanks,
Emil
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 04:43:29 AM
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| I used my fingers to pull and stretch the tongue. I am not suggesting tearing it out by the root! Just follow the same guidelines that you would with any stretch. |
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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 11:57:20 PM
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| Haha I'm trying to imagine you doing that while driving in the country :)) |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 11:53:38 AM
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| ^_^ +1 ... how did u mange to keep ur hands n sterring unwet victor |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 06:34:54 AM
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Hi Everybody,
I went to my dentist about having my frenum cut, and while he readily agreed (unlike I believe in the US), he warned me that it might affect normal speech ! Is this a valid warning? Has anybody in the forum who has done it (or had it done) experienced any problem with his/her speech?
Krish
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Edited by - krcqimpro1 on Feb 04 2010 11:32:27 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 09:44:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by krcqimpro1
Hi Everybody,
I went to my dentist about having my frenum cut, and while he readily agreed (unlike I believe in the US), he warned me that it might affect normal speech ! Is this a valid warning? Has anybody in the forum who has done it (or had it done) experienced any problem with his/her speech?
Krish
Krish
Hi Krish,
Just want to run a couple of things by you.
There is only one other person at the forum (that we know of), who has had his frenum removed surgically.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....hpage=3#6540
May 2006
quote:
Originally posted by sparkyfoxMD
Hi everyone
Just thought I'd let you know how Im getting on a la kechari. Have been stretching the tongue a lot and am now quite far back.
I went to see my local friendly dentist and talked about having the frenum removed safely...he explained it was very simple and very safe and would do it for about £200 ($350 ish). So I am booked in and going to do it. Might be sore for a little while but shouldnt be any problems. If there are I will let you all know!!!
I decided to go this route because I simply couldnt face mucking about with a pair of cuticle snippers, and am rather accident prone, so possibly might have removed some of my arteries at the same time! Seriously, I think its the best route FOR ME. Will let y'all know how I get on.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....hpage=4#7119
quote:
Originally posted by sparkyfoxMD
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
Its all done. He removed it completely. Took about 20 minutes. No pain. Mouth sore...getting used to it. Will take a while to heal and I will post updates on how it is going.
This is what he had to say in sept 2007
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2814#25305
quote:
Originally posted by sparkyfoxMD
Hi
It was me who went to the dentist and had laser surgery to remove the frenum. I have learned a lot. Best part is self-pacing..the enrgy of mrityunjay reminded me of me- I really wanted kechari.
This has changed and I know it will happen when I am ready. I am pleased I had the op- my architecture was quite tight-and the tongue does stretch a lot more- I am very close. But the burning desire has abated to be replaced by a knowing that when the time is right, I will achieve it.
So, I would say, listen to Yogani and the other members here, take it easy, and dont go snipping things if you dont really know what they are! Dont damage yourself in the process-please.
My meditations are getting better anyway- and my bhakti is growing stronger- I have had many blessings in my life- and this will be another when it decides to bless me.
So there is no guaranty that you will enter kechari with this surgery.
As for speech problems, I don't think there will be any. frenum reduction actually is used in children who have a speech problem.
Here is a post by Kirtanman on this:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
By the way - for anyone who is curious about the medical / health angle, a couple of quick "data points":
1. I did research laser surgery, as a form a "instant snipping" -- and without going into other aspects of it (cost, convincing your chosen dentist that you're not a raving whack-job, etc.) --- reducing / almost removing the frenulum beneath the tongue is a *very* common procedure, often done for children with speech issues, which can be cured via that procedure.
(And I know of at least a couple of AYP folks who have had it done - my point is: it's much more common than we may have realized - and "per that", we can rest easy as far as any physical health risks.
2. I spoke with a medical doctor I know, concerning any health risks, or lack thereof, which might stem from sticking one's tongue up one's own nose, from the inside (aka Kechari Mudra).
He was mildly befuzzled as to the reasons / benefits, but took a moment to consider the attendant physiology (including things like infection risk, etc.), and his conclusion was, "Go for it".
So, just FYI -- "Kechari does a body good!"
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2010 : 07:26:07 AM
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Thanks, Shweta. I plan to wait for the cuticle nipper, and then try out myself. Thanks for the reassurance. When is your friend/relation coming over?
Krish |
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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2010 : 06:36:17 AM
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Alright :) So I did 2 laset frenum cuts, a month apart
(Feb & Mar). First time cut all of it but then it reappeared. But the second time it wasn't as big as before. Now it has grown another 2mm (visible length) and the doctor said he won't be able to do another cut. (I assume there's more of it but it's inside and not exposed as before)
As for the results, After 2 cuts and about 3 months worth of practice I can reach about 2cm deeper than I could do before the cut. (I couldn't easily reach Kechari 1 spot in the beginning) Now I'm like Kechari 1.5 
The good thing about the frenum cut was that even now when I practice, I don't feel the frenum being pulled. I think it's mainly the position of my tongue muscles that are not allowing me to advance further. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2010 : 10:03:25 AM
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Emil,
What I found is that there is a tendon behind the frenum, and THAT must be cut as well.
I would be curious to see a pic of your mouth to ascertain this. |
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2010 : 10:56:39 AM
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Depending on what lineage you practice is what determines if you should cut the frenulum. In my tradition it is strictly forbidden. It should be done using Talavya (Talabya) Kriya only. No milking or anything else. If one cannot complete the Khechari in this lifetime thru this method then it is Karma that prevents it many times. some practice for years and years and never get it. the 1000 times thing is a myth. as is the week or two. LOL I have brother/sister disciples
that have practiced for many years and are still unable to achieve it. I have others that did it in a relatively short period of time. My own was an extremely short period. Over time the Talabya (done correctly) will scrape away and shred it, if one still cant achieve it after it turns all white and looks calloused and is barely even there then more than likely they will not be able to. there is much more to it than simply placing it behind the uvula as well which in itself is a decent accomplishment.
Will it effect you speech if you cut it. Surely it can. this isnt the reason behind our thoughts in my tradition though. Actually in my tradition it says that all other methods are incorrect, shortcuts etc and shouldnt be practiced that the proper way is thru the Talavya (Talabya), however that is what we follow, I am not going to sit here and say that everyone else is wrong for doing what they are doing. How will i ever know. will they reach the same stage as we do if practicing their way and we practice ours? How should I KNOW!!!! LOL but this is how it is in some traditional schools of thought. |
Edited by - Kriyaban on Jun 18 2010 11:07:30 AM |
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Laser frenum cut for kechari
