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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 11:13:02 PM
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In my opinion,
all you need to do is:
A. Find the clarity and vividness of the NOW
B. Give it a name like Self, God etc.
C. Distinguish it from the thought stream
Even Ramana Maharishi said he still had a thought stream. But he said it was a rope pretending to be a snake. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 01 2009 11:24:38 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 11:51:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
In my opinion,
all you need to do is:
A. Find the clarity and vividness of the NOW
B. Give it a name like Self, God etc.
C. Distinguish it from the thought stream
Even Ramana Maharishi said he still had a thought stream. But he said it was a rope pretending to be a snake.
That does not compute. Meep. Meep. A direct perception of the Clear Light vanquishes all opinions. Thought streams, piss streams all stream into the all good nature of the Clear Light Mind. There is not distinctions there. The Clear Light is like Pac Man; it swallows all the ghosts.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 03:19:36 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 12:26:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
TI, Oneness is synonymous with nonduality which must be known for oneself as the twelve links of dependent origination, a sort of non-dual togetherness. Only this much elaboration is useful. Understand intentionality, action, etc., etc., from this standpoint. It's nondual, because it is one's own mind. Not in the sense of one, two, three, four. In the sense of not two. Oneness is just a term. Abandon all conceptuality about this and it is your own reflection in space.
Adamant
Hi AdamantClearLight :)
I can see now that your new name is not Adam Ant, the punk rocker. I'm really clear on that now. :)
Thank you for sharing your definition of Oneness.
quote:
It's nondual, because it is one's own mind.
Exactly. So how does one choose to act from oneness? Doesn't make sense. What do you think of a teacher that tells someone to act from oneness?
I believe what you have described is the same as Mark Griffin ( http://www.hardlight.org/ ) said when he said, after experiencing turiya, the world and everything in it has just one flavour, one taste.
I look upon this as the world and everything in it is just a cartoon made of paint and I am the paint..
Have you ever experienced nirvikalpa samadhi? If so, for how long?
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Dec 02 2009 03:20:34 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 06:36:06 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Not for me. How can you believe that stuff?
There is no such thing as acting from oneness. For starters, in order to 'act', one's energy must filter through the construct of the deep silence, intention, thought and then manifestation. In order to manifest, the manifestation must progress through the mental, emotional, etheric, electrical and physical body. By the time the 'act' is realized in the body, it has been divided so many times that Oneness is no longer there. Further the only way the brain realizes action is after it has occured by using memory. Acting from Oneness is a myth. It proves to me that Adyashanti just kind of says anything that dribbles down into his mind at the time.
How can anything that is beyond the mind act from Oneness? At a basic level, everything is already acting from Oneness, just as it is. Everything is divided. There is really no choice on the mundane level. Do you know anyone who can identify a act as 'not coming from oneness'? How would you know? How can you seriously tell someone to not act from a position of division?
This is just more of Adyshanti's babble.
Yup, I'm a nondualist, I act from Oneness. Please ignore my derogatory language and nonsensical statements which I say because if I can't understand them, you shouldn't be able to either.. there's no division here..
When Adyashanti was first posed that question you quoted, by someone in the audience, that person wanted to resolve the question of what to do in a certain given life situation. As if any act could represent Oneness, or be viewed on a level that was free of judgement simply because it was supposedly coming from Oneness. The only type of action that is coming from Oneness would be divine manifestion. And yet, that too would be divided because it would have to conform to natural laws, maybe not all, but enough to make it realizable by the senses.
This is the reason that Yogani talks so much about relational self-inquiry. What Adyashanti offers in his satsangs is pretty high end self-inquiry (although he may not call it that). What he is talking about cannot be understood on the level of the mind, it can only be sensed on a higher level.
In silence it can be known, and this is the difference between relational and non-relational self-inquiry. I don't know if you have read Yogani's book on self-inquiry, but if you haven't, you may find it useful. No amount of reasoning on the mental level can come to a realization of that which is beyond thought.
Unfortunately, Adyashanti doesn't put in any warnings to this effect when he gives satsangs and so this kind of confusion can easily arise, which is what a large part of my discussion with Kirtanman early on in this thread was about.
Once when Adyashanti was giving satsang he did say something to the effect of: "If you are ripe, and just about ready to drop from the tree, and the planets are all lined up in the right places, then you might just understand what I am talking about. " 
That's about as close as I have ever heard him get to saying that not everyone is ready for what he is offering.
Of course, with effective spiritual practices, and bringing the mind repeatedly to a place of silence, it is no longer necessary to try and understand what truth is, because it is revealed in that silence. Then advaita isn't even necessary, because it is everywhere and we are that.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 07:28:48 AM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Hi Christi, Realization of Dzogchen is a beginning, yes. The fruit is the Body of Light; this is the beacon of light floating in the air Wangdor Rinpoche told of his recent student from California who did just that in the past year or so.
That's what I thought. And thanks for the link. There is a beautiful description in the link of someone learning to use the light body for the first time:
“the truth is that sometime ago, after heavy meditation and fasting ..I have managed to disappear as light.And survived coming back....The problem is that the universe around me also proved to be the same light.So that's WHY I started laughing like a mad man while I was in the middle of the forest...or maybe the forest was laughing too?....All I know is I could see thru my hands...and all I could see was rainbow colors ..and the trees also were made of the same stuff as me....I was,and I am..everybody.
I am you,my beloved...my beloved me.
I know for sure was not some mind trick,because I passed my hand thru some tree..and my hand went right thru it..while all the molecules of rainbow body were laughing at me for trying it..that's when I started laughing too....that was the day when I laughed about the notion of death itself.
Even the tree was laughing at me..well.... because the tree was me too...hahahahaha..lol”
Interesting to compare that with something that Sri Karunamai once said:
“It is good to go out in the morning and sit in the sun for a while. At one stage you will be able to leave your physical body inside the hut and go out in your body of light to sit in the sun. That is fine too.”
Things are starting to fall into place: 
“Yoga practices operate on many levels -- physical, mental, emotional, neurological -- and in galaxies of inner ecstatic energy!” [Yogani]
http://www.aypsite.org/11.html
Have you attained the light body now Adamant?
Christi
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 08:53:47 AM
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Specifically the Clear Light. It becomes easily recognized when you sneeze, orgasm, feint or dreamless sleep (like when you first drop off). AKA the Mother Clear Light. It is like the sky, radiant, sparkly and vast. It is not awareness or nowness or samadhi or thoughtlessness or anything else.
It is always present in one's consciousness, you just don't recognize it right now. Recognizing it is the Child Clear Light. Remaining in the recognition is the swiftest path. When one's recognition of that is 24/7 and the final indifferent non-recognition dissolves, full enlightenment happens all at once. This is called Child meeting the Mother in the texts. But each time you recognize the Mother Clear Light, the Child meets the Mother. So its just the Clear Light. Ultimately one can attain the Body of Light where one's elements dissolve into the Clear Light. Then life on planet Earth is over, if that's your plan! Dissolve means dissolve. Otherwise you can remain as a buddha indefinitely I suppose.
Awareness, the Now, and any thought dissolves into Clear Light; they are Clear Light. Awareness is not the nature of the mind unless it is Awareness of the Clear Light. Distinguishing thoughts from Rigpa is just a way of introduction to the Clear Light. Thoughts must be recognized as radiance of the Clear Light. One must recognize how one's Clear Light literally radiates one's world. Then one goes from tarnish to purity.
I'm at the stage where I am in constant recognition of the Clear Light when I'm awake and for brief periods when I'm asleep. But I still have dreams. My dreams are auspicious and not negative karmic dreams. I will need to progress further to remain in 24/7 recognition of the Clear Light. With diligence, this can happen very quickly.
Christi, Not dissolved into Clear Light yet. Still typing.
TI, Oneness means not making distinctions; having no preferences. The Clear Light is only evident when we don't focus. We have to de-focus our mind (relax). With focus the mind is Samsara, circling, chasing its tail. When no focus, it is Clear Light. Looked at hardlight.org. Not the same thing. Clear Light does not require kundalini yoga or shaktipat. Yoga is a hindrance, because it's doing something. Clear Light is nondoing, no focus. Shaktipat is not important because one is not adding something new; one is dissolving the old. There is not to add or improve on. The Clear Light is the natural mind. When thoughts and whatnot dissolve into Clear Light, it's blissful as all get out.
It's important not to hope! No focus.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 09:21:31 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 11:43:46 AM
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Well all Dzogchen masters say that you need to distinguish between crystal clear, vivid awareness of the present moment and the thought stream.
I mean, for God's sake, thats the whole meaning of Dzogchen |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 02 2009 11:50:21 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 12:08:16 PM
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Distinguishing/dividing/analyzing etc etc are all processes of the mind/thought stream....the exact thing you are trying to differentiate between is product of what you must transcend. Seems to me like that would lead one in endless circles.
Love,
Carson |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 12:13:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Well all Dzogchen masters say that you need to distinguish between crystal clear, vivid awareness of the present moment and the thought stream.
I mean, for God's sake, thats the whole meaning of Dzogchen
Yes, perhaps initially. It is part of the introduction to the Clear Light. But really the whole meaning of Dzogchen is the Clear Light, and in that pristine awareness, there are no distinctions. Thoughts are literally consumed by the Clear Light. Contintually distinguishing between thoughts and Clear Light is effort. That's not nonmeditation. There is direct introduction to Clear Light that bypasses observing thoughts. See prev post. Then, thoughts radiate AS Clear Light.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 12:21:18 PM
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TI,
P.S. Reconsidering the shaktipat and kundalini part. Remembering having my forehead touched by different masters' foreheads causing intense Clear Light sensations for days. Also kundalini yoga practicing culminate in standing of the precipice of this knowledge. So it doesn't hurt; but one can jump right into Clear Light practice with the right instructions. |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 12:46:36 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 2:55:28 PM
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Carson and adamant,
You NON-conceptually distinguish between crystal clear, vivid awareness of the present moment and the thought stream. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 02 2009 6:23:37 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 6:42:44 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Christi, Not dissolved into Clear Light yet. Still typing.
Can't be long now.
Good luck!  |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 6:46:39 PM
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i would like to make a few comments on satchitanand or enlightenement or clear light which are all synonymous with nirvana/jivan-mukti/nirvikalpa samadhi/kaivayla/chidakasha/turiya/moksha/divine mind/rapture/ascension/salvation/deliverance and liberation.
now there is some debate also between savikalp samadhi vs. nirvikalp. now in my opinion savikalpa samadhi is beholding inner lights whatever color they may be at the forehead or hearing the inner nada/shabda cosmic sound current in the head/crown chakra. and nirvikalp samadhi is constantly being absorbed in inner lights and sounds regardless of being in an immobile state or in a mobile state moving about the world. my opinion also resonates with that of sri yukteswar and paramahansa yogananda (among other gurus as well not just these 2) as they say nirvikalpa samadhi is permanent and there is communion at all times as said in autobiography of a yogi here: "In sabikalpa samadhi the devotee has spiritually progressed to a state of inward divine union, but cannot maintain his cosmic consciousness except in the immobile trance-state. By continuous meditation, he reaches the superior state of nirbikalpa samadhi, where he moves freely in the world and performs his outward duties without any loss of realization."
i would agree with this because in my personal journey in the beginning the lights or sounds would only be there in a quiet room laying on my bed, im not into sitting asanas or postures etc... its just not my scene... but now the sounds are always there, of course i prefer a queit room where i can devote 100% of my attention to them as any yogi would. yogananda or any yogi for that matter didnt/doesn't ever stop sitting in an immobile trance/samadhi, but when they get up from it, it really doesn't make much of a difference. to me that is enlightenement or jivan mukti or satchitananda or nirvikalpa samadhi, always in lights and sounds. |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Dec 02 2009 9:36:40 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 6:58:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Carson and adamant,
You NON-conceptually distinguish between crystal clear, vivid awareness of the present moment and the thought stream.
Sure. Except the thought stream is happening in the present moment and is the ornament of that awareness. But beyond that there is the Clear Light which swallows that all up. |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 7:30:29 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 8:04:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
i would like to make a few comments on satchitanand or enlightenement or clear light which are all synonymous with nirvana/jivan-mukti/nirvikalpa samadhi/kaivayla/chidakasha/turiya/moksha/divine mind/rapture/ascension/salvation/deliverance and liberation.
now there is some debate also between savikalp samadhi vs. nirvikalp. now in my opinion savikalpa samadhi is beholding inner lights whatever color they may be at the forehead or hearing the inner nada/shabda cosmic sound current in the head/crown chakra. and nirvikalp samadhi is constantly being absorbed in inner lights and sounds regardless of being in an immobile state or in a mobile state moving about the world. my opinion also resonates with that of sri yukteswar and paramahansa yogananda (among other gurus as well not just these 2) as they say nirvikalpa samadhi is permanent and there is communion at all times as said in autobiography of a yogi here: "In sabikalpa samadhi the devotee has spiritually progressed to a state of inward divine union, but cannot maintain his cosmic consciousness except in the immobile trance-state. By continuous meditation, he reaches the superior state of nirbikalpa samadhi, where he moves freely in the world and performs his outward duties without any loss of God-realization."
i would agree with this because in my personal journey in the beginning the lights or sounds would only be there in a quiet room laying on my bed, im not into sitting asanas or postures etc... its just not my scene... but now the sounds are always there, of course i prefer a queit room where i can devote 100% of my attention to them as any yogi would. yogananda or any yogi for that matter didnt/doesn't ever stop sitting in an immobile trance/samadhi, but when they get up from it, it really doesn't make much of a difference. to me that is enlightenement or jivan mukti or satchitananda or nirvikalpa samadhi, always in lights and sounds.
I don't believe these are synonymous. I'm not talking about samadhi, concentration or any sort of effort.
Adamant |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 8:10:40 PM
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consciousness and presence are one, the only thing that is ever-present is consciousness. it cannot be destroyed, how could god create this wonderful & colorful universe if there is no thought/creative thinking/creative consciousness. some people are mis-understanding the dzogchen teaching of clear light, which is just a term that is synonymous with many other terms. there will always be thought, even when it appears that there is no thinking during your meditations, you reside in the thoughtless-thought or primordial awareness, but there is still awareness or consciousness that can get up and act anytime it wishes. when we do not focus on any object we destroy/get rid of all form and reside in formless awareness or emptiness or clear light or primordial awareness or samadhi or whatever u want to call it. you are doing a mimic of what it was like when there was only the primordial waters or primordial cosmic sound, OM, when there was no creation in the universe except the ethereal cosmic waters. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word was god." you are removing form to get to your primordial, formless nature, which has been called Chidakasha or Satchidananda by many, meaning: chit or chid means mind, akasha means sky or ether, so sky mind or ethereal mind or formless mind, which is the mind's natural state. and satchitanand means: sat is truth or purity chit is mind ananda is bliss, pure bliss consciousness. this however is not the ultimate reality, but it is however the highest state that humans can get to, most dont ever reach the state of seeing lights or hearing sounds in the crown during meditation, let alone being absorbed in them all hours of the day. Satchitanand occurs on the astral plane in the head/crown chakra with an array of astral lights and astral sounds. there is a higher state and a higher plane above the astral plane, which a few idiots have claimed to have reached. it is called the causal plane, a plane where creator gods reside. if a person made it to there, they would be able to create universes, and seeing how no one can do that..... no one has made it there, im sure there are gods in the astral heavens still baffled by the supreme consciousness causal beings have.
and as a side note i would also like to say that many masters encourage contemplation/thinking while listering to the inner sound current or beholding lights. and some masters particularly the new age ones have the philosophy of eliminating all thoughts and residing in the now, which i don't subscribe to. the primordial awareness is a state of consciousness, thinking doesn't hinder it nor is it a layer or "ornament" on top of the primordial consciousness, it is one and the same, consciousness is aware, can think, and do whatever it wishes. a regular human can do thinking walking etc... a super human or astral being can think, walk, and also do a wide variety of siddhis. and a causal being or creator being can do whatever it wishes including using its awesome thought power to bring universes into existence. thought is never deleted, thought stream, god and consciousness are one, eternal force. you are powerless if u dont use your consciousness to its full potential, you are like a brain dead comatose moron that cant think and thats suppose to be enlightenment?hahahahaha. i dont know where this whole "eliminate all thoughts and reside in the now" bullsh*t came from, but its just that, BS. God is not a consciousness-less or mindless being that cant do anything at all, not move, not think, i dont agree with this new age philosophy on God. God is supreme consciousness, supreme creator, supreme thinker, supreme sustainer, and supreme destroyer, not a nothingness with no mind no thoughts no nothing.
making it to formless awareness or emptiness doesn't mean your free or have made it to God or Self or whatever u want to call it. it means you have chosen to worship the formless space or ether, which is an element of creation, not god. in order to get to God u would have to be on the same level of consciousness that a God is at, which is being able to create the universe, pretty high level of consciousness if u ask me. so how does one evolve one's consciousness to such a supreme state? I HAVE NO CLUE, and i think it's funny that some new age master's claim that they do. ALL meditation occurs in the astral/ethereal body, or physical body if u have not crossed over to the astral plane which has its seat in the head. |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Dec 02 2009 9:30:59 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 9:24:50 PM
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Michaelangelo, Pay attention! I'm about to teach you the Clear Light which does not come from a teaching I heard or read. I was shown directly...
Pull out yer nose hair... Sneeze. Clear Light. Get the teaching?
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 9:33:11 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 9:28:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
consciousness and presence are one, the only thing that is ever-present is consciousness. it cannot be destroyed, how could god create this wonderful & colorful universe if there is no thought/creative thinking/creative consciousness. some people are mis-understanding the dzogchen teaching of clear light, which is just a term that is synonymous with many other terms. there will always be thought, even when it appears that there is no thinking during your meditations, you reside in the thoughtless-thought or primordial awareness, but there is still awareness or consciousness that can get up and act anytime it wishes. when we do not focus on any object we destroy/get rid of all form and reside in formless awareness or emptiness or clear light or primordial awareness or samadhi or whatever u want to call it. you are doing a mimic of what it was like when there was only the primordial waters or primordial cosmic sound, OM, when there was no creation in the universe except the ethereal cosmic waters. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word was god." you are removing form to get to your primordial, formless nature, which has been called Chidakasha or Satchidananda by many, meaning: chit or chid means mind, akasha means sky or ether, so sky mind or ethereal mind or formless mind, which is the mind's natural state. and satchitanand means: sat is truth or purity chit is mind ananda is bliss, pure bliss consciousness. this however is not the ultimate reality, but it is however the highest state that humans can get to, most dont ever reach the state of seeing lights or hearing sounds in the crown during meditation, let alone being absorbed in them all hours of the day. Satchitanand occurs on the astral plane in the head/crown chakra with an array of astral lights and astral sounds. there is a higher state and a higher plane above the astral plane, which a few idiots have claimed to have reached. it is called the causal plane, a plane where creator gods reside. if a person made it to there, they would be able to create universes, and seeing how no one can do that..... no one has made it there, im sure there are gods in the astral heavens still baffled by the supreme consciousness causal beings have.
and as a side note i would also like to say that many masters encourage contemplation/thinking while listering to the inner sound current or beholding lights. and some masters particularly the new age ones have the philosophy of eliminating all thoughts and residing in the now, which i don't subscribe to. the primordial awareness is a state of consciousness, thinking doesn't hinder it nor is it a layer or "ornament" on top of the primordial consciousness, it is one and the same, consciousness is aware, can think, and do whatever it wishes. a regular human can do thinking walking etc... a super human or astral being can think, walk, and also do a wide variety of siddhis. and a causal being or creator being can do whatever it wishes including using its awesome thought power to bring universes into existence. thought is never deleted, thought stream, god and consciousness are one, eternal force. you are powerless if u dont use your consciousness to its full potential, you are like a brain dead comatose moron that cant think and thats suppose to be enlightenment?hahahahaha. i dont know where this whole "eliminate all thoughts and reside in the now" bullsh*t came from, but its just that, BS. God is not a consciousness-less or mindless being that cant do anything at all, not move, not think, i dont agree with this new age philosophy on God. God is supreme consciousness, supreme creator, supreme thinker, supreme sustainer, and supreme destroyer, not a nothingness with no mind no thoughts no nothing.
making it to formless awareness or emptiness doesn't mean your free or have made it to God or Self or whatever u want to call it. it means you have chosen to worship the formless space or ether, which is an element of creation, not god. in order to get to God u would have to be on the same level of consciousness that a God is at, which is being able to create the universe, pretty high level of consciousness if u ask me. so how does one evolve one's consciousness to such a supreme state? I HAVE NO CLUE, and i think it's funny that some new age master's claim that they do. the only thing that can come of meditation/yoga is the worshiping of ethereal lights or sounds which could culminate, at the time of death, in the physical body turning into a body of astral light and going to the astral heavens which Prophet Muhammed of the Islamic faith is known to have done, he rode to heaven on a white horse. obviously the white horse is poetic or metaphor for a white vehicle i.e. white beam of light. many eastern practioners have realized the rainbow body or body of astral light and leave this plane behind to go to heaven because they have 100% realized what the astral body is. ALL meditation occurs in the astral/ethereal body, or physical body if u have not crossed over to the astral plane which has its seat in the head.
Too many views. No views. |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 10:00:23 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:00:09 PM
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Hi Christi, TI & All,
Regarding the Adyashanti Quote:
"Evaluation of other people’s non-division is not helpful. The only thing that matters is where you are. In any moment, are you experiencing and acting from division, or are you experiencing and acting from oneness? Which is it?”
~Adyashanti
Christi:
While I agree in part with some of your comments (vis a vis relational vs. non-relational inquiry), I don't feel that Adyashanti's teachings are unclear; in fact, Yogani recommends The End Of Your World by Adyashanti,
here.
However, I do know and agree that readiness affects understanding ... yet in this case, it seems that TI's detailed response emanated primarily from feeling that "oneness" is not a useful term for confict-free experience ... and that's fine, if he feels that way.
TI:
Thanks for your response; I respectfully disagree with your conclusion about "acting from oneness" not being a useful or meaningful statement.
And I don't believe it, by the way (per your statement "how can you believe that stuff?") ... I experience it (non-division, non-conflict) ... and inherently accept "oneness", or "acting from oneness" as a fairly benign way to convey a sense of that experience ... as well as a relatively clear, illustrative term.
Acting from oneness is possible, and for some of us actual.
I realize this may not seem to be so, if you have not experienced this.
I *could* agree with you; what you wrote is one way of looking at it ... but the entire phenomenon of unenlightenment comes from confusing the conceptual with the actual.
It is possible to act from oneness, if all of the divisions you cited are experienced as conceptual and not actual.
We, as human beings, do this all the time ... if we are looking at a map of a country, divided into states or provinces or whatever ... we understand that if we go to the place on the map where a border is .... we won't see a giant physical line of some type.
The same is true for all of the energies and instances you cited.
In thinking mind, these divisions either seem actual, or at least pertinent.
In enlightenment, the wholeness is experienced .... though, admittedly, oneness is just one term for it; there are many.
Anyone, I feel, can at least get a sense of what Adyashanti actually meant, if they are willing:
Mind is inherently divided; it is therefore not a solid reference point for anything ... but especially not for determining non-division (enlightenment).
Non-division simply means "free of conflict" .... which, in feeling/experience ... feels like immersion in the wholeness of the moment; perfect harmony, regardless of content:
"I am what is happening right now", as Wayne Wirs wrote.
Adya's point, and mine (per my sharing of the quote) is/was:
Focusing on the quality/actuality of someone else's enlightenment (non-division; their conflict-free experience, or lack thereof) isn't helpful .... or possible; enlightenment is experienced from the inside ... and the experience is:
It's all inside (the artificial divisions of concept and language are seen/experienced to be artificial, not actual ... hence Adya's use of the term "oneness").
Focus on what someone else is saying, or why they appear to be saying it, etc. .... is a function of a sense of division in subjective mind/experience, and keeps unenlightenment in place.
Enlightenment can only be known in direct experience.
Anything else is either a waste of time .... or a way to open awareness to what's actually real.
The same situation or conversation can go either way ........ how it goes for you, is only up to you (whoever is reading these words right now).
I hope this helps clarify.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 02 2009 10:25:46 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:05:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
the clear light is always there, always there for you to merge in. i get it, i have heard this before but with a different name. it is a concept. putting in no effort gets you no where. it is a lazy man's way of thinking he has made it to clear light or an enlightened state. i think its stupid and you should strive to get to your natural blissful state of satchitananda, the company of lights and sounds more beautiful than any light or music you have encountered on this physical plane is much better than living in a concept or words, live in the reality of bliss. if u do not partake in the divine past times of the astral gods, of beholding lights and sounds that would make even the evilest of men turn into saints, then u are missing out. it is every man's destiny to reach them, to be like a god, not THE GOD, but a god none the less. its either now in this human body or in heaven, might as well get a preview.
Clear Light is not a concept. You are dead wrong. It is spontaneous natural present bliss. By putting some future attainment in front of the bliss of here and now, you are delaying, circling and suffering... Carry on.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:09:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
or practice dorje lapchu while connected to a heart monitor
http://people.tribe.net/sahajananda...f44b055b6078
resembles carotid massage I think
A little forceful, but my introduction reminded me of playing this game in elem school where we did that too each other and invoke a "head rush." This is right. But you don't need to go so far as to pass out. A little dab'll do ya...
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 10:36:50 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:35:11 PM
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Hi Michaelangelo and Adamant :)
I'd like to point out that Adamant did say this:
quote:
When the mind is defocused long enough, the wisdom lights or nimitta appear.
There are two main methods to get to the light (probably way more too). One is by letting go, and the effort goes into letting go, not doing, deeply relaxing and becoming a watcher, not a doer. This produces lights or nimittas. A nimitta is a reflection of the light of the light of the self through a quiet and reflective mind. The buddhist technique is to merge into the nimitta and be propelled into one of states of jhanas. However, Adamant did say that if you remain empty, everything will fill you up without effort, so I'm not entirely sure what he would do with a nimitta. ?
The other method is contracting the mind through concentration and focus. Intense extended concentration on one object or form will also produce states of samadhi and the state of samadhi always begins with a light. The effort here is concentration, willpower and intent. This is a better method for someone who has to 'do something', or put their energy into it.
I've tried both methods and both methods work.
Actually, I am at the point where I can see the light in my head all throughout the day if I just focus on that area in my head, and it does not matter what I'm doing at the time.
Both of the methods you are discussing are valid and lead into the light. Don't they?
:)
TI |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:47:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
It is like the sky, radiant, sparkly and vast. It is not awareness or nowness or samadhi or thoughtlessness or anything else.
Hi Adamant,
Ultimately this is true (what you wrote, above).
However, I've used each of those terms above, as an indicator to/from clear light .... and not incorrectly.
The apparent paradox (how can both your use, and mine, be correct?) is fairly easy to resolve:
If any of those terms (awareness, nowness, samadhi, etc.) are:
A. Objects in awareness (concepts held in mind)
Or
B. Limited in any way
.... they're not the clear light that you're referring to/from .... or the clear light I'm referring to/from .... including when I did/do so using some of those terms.
Both can be correct ways of expressing, though ultimately yours is more, well, clear.
Clear light is what we are; what all this is.
Writing To Everyone Now ......
Bottom Line:
Clear Light is subjective/self experiencing; it is the true, original self .... the experiencER if you will; the subject who can never be an object .... the formless infinite field that *is* the awareness ... that you can't step farther "back" than ... because it *is* the experiencing ..... "I am what is happening right now."
The emptiness containing the form, the diverse forms of the emptiness; feeling-being the ocean/waves from the inside, yet beyond - containing all, being all.
Yet, more normal-than-normal, as well.
There is not anything that is not it.
Knowing, not-knowing; all it.
It's immersion; not trying to understand from the outside (unenlightenment) ... not transcending the immanent (only), not the here-and-now manifestation, only.
Both - the Adamant and the Clear Light.
(Good user name, Adamant) .....
Yet One - the Adamant Clear Light - the Shakti and the Shiva.
All of it.
All of this.
All of us.
Not what we think we are.
What's really here; underneath the thinking; underneath the "form only"; all the way underneath .... including all of this .... arising.
It's the feeling of being in it ... all the way in it; as all of it; immersed, pervasive; utterly free, living, unbound ....... so free, it doesn't even need to be maintained .... attention flows; one moment all of it; the next moment ... a guy writing a post).
And it's all right here.
It was just hiding underneath all those crazy concepts.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 10:51:21 PM
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TI, The one with effort is samsara. Do nothing with the lights. They are a release. The concentration hard focus nimittas are useless, bc the view is opposite nature. Don't control.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 02 2009 11:03:49 PM |
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