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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 19 2009 : 11:10:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BellaMente
What is the difference between the energy body and the others (etheric body, astral body, mental body, etc.) ??
They're each/all terms for aspects and levels of non-physical consciousness.
Consciousness spans a spectrum from the utterly silent-still original self, through layers of mind activity and formation, through to manifestation -- and back again.
Terms vary, and are all over the "maps".
Energy body and Etheric body usually refer to the next layer back from the purely physical ... the perceptual-conceptual layer that bridges actual sensory input and the mind's evaluation of it ... the "subtle body".
Astral is sometimes used to describe the same thing, and/or the "subtle-double", we each and all have, mentally (close your eyes, and notice your body ... you have a picture of your legs, your hands, your torso, etc ..... that's your "astral body").
Meaning: some systems conceive of etheric as more gross than astral, others consider the two to be the same .... they're all just pointers to processes in your own consciousness, happening continuously .... much like taking a snapshot of an arrow in flight, the descriptive models can be useful in certain ways, but at the same time, are not necessarily the most accurate way to depict what's going on ..... which is much more "living process" than snapshot.
The mental and causal bodies are usually the next layer or two *more* subtle than that (the astral and/or etheric); less form, more original conditioning ... more subconsciousness; more of the archetypes which make you generally human and specifically you.
There are many models, in many systems to describe this flow:
Causal
Mental
Astral/Etheric
Physical
~Theosophy
Emanation
Creation
Formation
Action (Manifestation)
~Kabbalah, Four Worlds
Paravak
Pasyanti
Madhyama
Vaikhari
~Kashmir Shaivism, Four Levels of Speech
Shiva (Awareness)
Shakti (Consciousness)
Prakriti (Nature/Limited Mind)
Prthivi (Earth/Manifestation/Perception)
~Kashmir Shaivism, Four Spheres
(All the above examples are most subtle to most gross)
A
U
M
. (Bindu)
~Yogic Science/Tantra/Hinduism
Waking
Dreaming-Thinking
Deep-Sleep (Subconscious/Long-Term Memory)
Turiya (Awareness, Samadhi, Inner Silence)
~Yogic Science/Tantra/Hinduism
(The two above are from most-gross to most subtle {formless}.)
There are five-layered models
Earth
Water
Fire
Air
Ether
And three-layered models
Father
Son
Holy Spirit
Brahma
Vishnu
Shiva
.... and so on.
Ten-layered models
(The Tree of Life, of the Kabbalah)
Twenty-two layered models
(Hebrew alphabet, major arcana of the tarot)
..... and many more.
And they *all* describe one thing, only:
How consciousness .... the infinite, unbound consciousness that is who and what you and all of us, each and all actually are, now .... *works*.
In plain language, the flow and its attributes can be described as:
Absolute-Original (Awareness) - Self
Silent, still, subjective (the experiencER, the one you cannot "take a step back from"), infinite, unbound, formless, beyond all description.
Limited mind cannot understand this level, but it is where every moment is lived *from*, in actuality, by everyone -- the only variance is in the levels of obscuration ... the "cloud cover".
Other Names: Shiva, Brahman, God, Paravak, Ein Soph, Buddha
Consciousness-Movement (Consciousness/Emanation)
When consciousness is going to create and/or perceive, it must oscillate within itself .... this movement, this oscillation, this will, this intention ..... is what makes all the rest possible.
This is pure power ... pure capability ... pure potential ...... Shakti.
Other Names: Christ, Hanuman, Christ-Consciousness, Self-Realization, Sadashiva, Ishvara, Causal, Mental
Mental Formation
This is the formational and faux-mental layer ... this is where information is in-formed ... where infinite awareness identifies with specific form.
Prior to realization, this is where self goes from conscious to semi-conscious ... it flows out across the veil of Maya (measurement, specification, objectivity), and identifies fully with form (whether thoughts, feelings, concepts, matter .... form is its entire universe ... whether the dimmest flicker of manas {mind}, or the expansiveness of universal Purusha (aka "Man", aka Self) ... is the identification is with the form, Maya is in charge, and awareness is not fully conscious.
In every system, the vast majority of levels and layers comprise this strata ... ranging from where the physical stops, to where the formless begins.
All subtle form ... energetic, emotional, conceptual, mental, objective .... arise and are utilized here .... by semi-consciousness, for semi-consciousness and of semi-consciousness.
After realization, these layers are experienced as a language one knows ... something to communicate *with* ... not something which defines *you* (ego-mind falls into the middle of these layers, and is basically the plaything of deeply reinforced conditioning; yoga frees us from this literal bad dream).
Maya is living in and from this state ... deluded by identification with form; we "think we are who we think we are".
Liberation comes from meditation enough to (literally) realize: we are the formless awareness .... not any of the infinitely arising-subsiding array of forms appearing within awareness.
Other Names: Ruach (Kabbalah), Subtle Body, Astral, Etheric and Energy Body, Bound Soul, Pasu (Beast {of Burden}).
Manifestation-The Perceived
aka "Physical".
Presumably, no explanation necessary.
Other Names: Earth, Physical Body, Nephesh (Kabbalah)
I hope this helps.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is; AUM Is Who We Are,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 19 2009 11:21:25 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 12:24:54 AM
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Great post, K-Man! Informative as always.
d= =b
At some point in the journey, will we be able to perceive all of these bodies/layers?
With Love
cosmic |
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BellaMente
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 02:40:01 AM
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| Okay what about the 'light body'? I've heard that one a lot lately... |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 05:12:24 AM
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Thanks K-man, I found your explainations useful.
quote:
Astral is sometimes used to describe the same thing, and/or the "subtle-double", we each and all have, mentally (close your eyes, and notice your body ... you have a picture of your legs, your hands, your torso, etc ..... that's your "astral body").
This struck me as unusual, haven't heard it like that before.
It reminded me of a conversation recently with someone about placing awareness on and in different parts of the body.
This came about because the person was following a Body Scan awareness CD and I was suggesting they could do it themselves without the CD.
They tried this often and could not seem to able to do it.
I found it difficult to understand why they could not simple travel through their body with awareness themselves. Maybe your explaination above of the Astral Body/the subtle-double, gives a clue. In that maybe astral body awareness requires a shift in awareness that might not be immediately available to some and may take a little more work to get there.
Would this ring true for you? |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 05:24:00 AM
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Cool post Kirtanman
d==b |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 08:38:41 AM
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Inspired post K-Man Very educational.
Excellent |
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BellaMente
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 5:15:43 PM
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| I wonder if the fingerprints have anything to do with the frequencies/patterns of these bodies?? What do you guys think? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 5:17:50 PM
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I find it very confusing. I have never seen this mixture of Awareness and Shiva anywhere, really.
I have only seen the description Shiva = consciousness, the I, the "Big mind", the stillness which is the screen upon which the film is moving. Stillness (Shiva) and movement (Shakti) are the two dualistic poles or principles creating Life, the two sides of the coin intertwined and non-separable, therefore One. Consciousness is Shiva, Brahman, God...
These two, which are actually One, come out of The Absolute (the zero, the Nothingness), The Source - pure awareness - no name applicable, undescribable - not even "stillness" is accurate as a description, beyond both being and non-being - beyond ALL dual principles even the Shiva-shakti/yin-yang/masculine-feminine, beyond even the I, (consciousness). It is That which is aware of Consciousness, Shiva.
Your description is confusing to me, coming from this angle... which is very much the angle of the advaita teachers I've been listening to and reading, for example Mooji and Nisargadatta Maharaj. Where do you come from and why am I confused? |
Edited by - emc on Sep 20 2009 5:33:11 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 9:41:39 PM
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Hi emc,
Advaitic models are some of the most simple and accurate available; nothing I wrote here conflicts with those models -- it just goes into much more detail.
The reason for the detail was to answer Bellamonte's specific question about the different "bodies", defined by different systems (etheric, astral, etc.).
There's a lot of misunderstanding about what these bodies are, and what they represent ... so I was attempting to clearly articulate the symbolism of those bodies; that's all.
Advaitic philosophies tend to be a lot simpler, and in my experiencing, much less fraught with misinterpretation, than more detailed or complex models.
However, ultimately, it's an "angle" thing.
From the standpoint of the stillness of Shiva/Awareness that we each and all are, now --- reality is Advaita -- Not-two.
From the standpoint of manifestation, consciousness/attention flows from stillness to manifestation and back again.
Manifestation/Consciousness models say:
Here is a map that can get you home.
Advaita says:
I am the territory described by the map ... and I Am Home.
Unity and diversity are both real -- diversity appears within unity, to unity, is made of unity, and returns to unity.
Maps and systems ... and the symbolism of the various bodies ... can be helpful, if the given "map reader" does not allow himself or herself to become lost in concepts and opinions ... but rather .... uses the map(s) as a guide to confirm/clarify the experiences that arises as a result of practices and/or inquiry .. and/or whatever else may have one interested in who and what One actually is, now.
Hope this helps -- and hope this helps clarify.
Please let me know, if it doesn't -- or if you feel further clarification is needed.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 10:36:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
Great post, K-Man! Informative as always.
d==b
Thanks, Cosmic!
quote:
At some point in the journey, will we be able to perceive all of these bodies/layers?
I dunno.
Seriously, though:
Such things have never really been of all that much interest to me.
However, I would offer a "qualified yes" ... in the sense that, in yogic teachings, the focus tends to be on the quality of the experiencing subject and the experiencing ... rather than the "body" that is in use ... though the full spectrum, from thought-permeated-manifestation to thought-free awareness ... is usually experienced ... and is described via the various levels of meditation and samadhi.
I personally like the yogic/samadhi model better than the "bodies" models; I was just trying to answer Bellamente's question ... which included showing correspondences between the various model-sets.
The *main* thing is to not try to understand any of these things mentally or conceptually .... but to practice daily and notice results ... and to experience the reality of the full spectrum for ourselves.
Not terribly long back (2-3 years, maybe even less) ... I used to read about some of these different bodies, and the different samadhi states ... and alternated between being intrigued by the mystery and exotic nature of it all ... and frustrated that I did *not* understand what they were talking about!!
I never did come to understand it.
I had been sitting around reading textbooks on swimming.
I talked with other "swimmers" about what swimming must actually be like - some of them said they had teachers who had been in The Pool.
Then, I came across a low-key little web site, called Advanced Swimming Practices.
It recommended bathing twice-daily, and adding swimming oriented practices ... self-pacing as needed.
I wondered when I would find The Pool .... if I would recognize it, when I saw it ....
As if by answer, someone (Life, True Nature) tossed me headlong into the pool.
(((**SPLOOSH**)))
I haven't been the least bit interested in understanding anything since.
Actually swimming is *WAY* too much FUN to even *think* about anything else!
And funny thing, though ... to realize that water-wetness .... is All I Am ... and All I Have Ever Been, Now .... even when dreaming I was not-water-wetness ... needing to read books on how to know myself as water-wetness.
And so, this swimming-bathing in All I Am Now ..... what body is this, exactly?
What kosha?
Or dosha?
Or kaya?
Or playa?
What layer?
What level?
Dunno ....... all I can say, is:
C'mon IN ... the Divine is Fine!!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 10:59:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Thanks K-man, I found your explainations useful.
quote:
Astral is sometimes used to describe the same thing, and/or the "subtle-double", we each and all have, mentally (close your eyes, and notice your body ... you have a picture of your legs, your hands, your torso, etc ..... that's your "astral body").
This struck me as unusual, haven't heard it like that before.
It reminded me of a conversation recently with someone about placing awareness on and in different parts of the body.
This came about because the person was following a Body Scan awareness CD and I was suggesting they could do it themselves without the CD.
They tried this often and could not seem to able to do it.
I found it difficult to understand why they could not simple travel through their body with awareness themselves. Maybe your explaination above of the Astral Body/the subtle-double, gives a clue. In that maybe astral body awareness requires a shift in awareness that might not be immediately available to some and may take a little more work to get there.
Would this ring true for you?
Hi Sparkle,
You're welcome -- glad you've found my explanations useful.
I was actually speaking more (when speaking of the nature of the astral body) ... of the fact that *all* of us experience it, as far as I know.
If, for instance, you're sitting in meditation (or even just sitting "around" - anywhere, with your eyes shut, actually), and you notice your hand, mentally ... you'll find (unless I "morphed" into doing this a while back, and don't remember it being different than this) ... that you have a (literal) mental image *of* your hand .... a sense of your hand that is as much image or mental "picture" of your hand, as it is sensation, yes?
My point was: as far as I know, the astral body is not anything exotic ... but rather, the mental image of our body that we always carry around, but don't notice.
Say you're petting a cat or dog, and you happen to have your eyes shut - you'll find you have a mental *image* of the cat or dog (that looks ... amazingly ... identical to the cat or dog you're petting) .... *Voila!* - "Astral Cat!"
Point being: the astral and etheric aren't that mysterious; they're the mental images of physical form ... more gross/formed than the latent impressions resident in subconscious memory; less gross/formed than the physical body and environment.
Experiencing them isn't so much about what they *are* ... but rather, where *attention* // awareness is directed, at any moment, now.
Which, I'd guess, is likely the answer to the question/item you raised as well: if someone can't do a body-scan, with awareness, without the help of a CD ... it's likely because their thought-self/thought-activity is still too agitated and volatile.
If you are able to do this body-scan without a CD, I'd guess it's because the agitation of your mind has has calmed down enough, that attention can (literally) rest with one image/area enough, that it all seems to be stable.
Hope this helps.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 11:36:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BellaMente
Okay what about the 'light body'? I've heard that one a lot lately...
Check out this link.
It takes you to a Wikipedia article on the "subtle body", including the light body -- and will also give you an idea of the vast array of of information on the various bodies, planes and levels of consciousness in various wisdom traditions.
The total value of which, related to enlightenment and liberation ... is effectively *zero*.
That's probably the most important thing I can say about all these models and bodies and planes ("Oh My!" ) ............ it is *highly* unlikely that any information about them will prove important to you, in any way, whatsoever.
I apologize for not clarifying that consummately important point, sooner.
Why have such models been so highly prioritized, throughout the history of various wisdom traditions, all over the world?
Because limited mind loves to have stuff to chew on.
Jnanam Bandhah - Knowledge is Bondage.
Shiva Sutras 1.2
Knowledge is bondage.
KnowING is not; Knowing is liberation.
Knowing comes from experiencing.
Experiencing comes from practices.
Information, and evaluation ... and the limited mind reasoning and evaluating ... literally have infinitely less value than anyone can ever imagine.
Literally.
All these BMP (Bodies, Models, Planes) .... are indicators; map-symbols.
A potential distraction?
Quite likely.
Potentially useful?
Slim possibility.
Essential?
Certainly not.
I can sum up everything you need to know about BMP in a single sentence:
The awareness you are knows itself via experiencing the full spectrum of consciousness, which ranges from the utterly still silence of pure awareness to physical manifestation.
Map-symbols can be based on shapes or colors; topography or geography or political borders .... all that matters to you is that they serve their purpose, that they get you all the way home to your true nature, now.
There are many enlightened people who have never heard of a "light body".
No wisdom tradition (experience-oriented, or "esoteric", rather than concept or information-oriented, or "exoteric") is superior to another, as far as I know ... I've researched most of them more deeply than most people would ever care to ... and have found them all to be very close to equivalent.
Some of the information has been interesting.
Some has even been a bit useful, in terms of confirming and clarifying the experiences I had as a result of AYP practices.
"Some" is maybe 5-10% of my total reading and study ... the 5-10% that was directly inspired by intuitive guidance, after practices resulted in experiencing clarity as to when intuitive guidance was being experienced ... and when my own thinking was blocking intuitive guidance (<-- only when it {"my own thinking"} was happening .....).
Information ..... you can *always* get by without.
Daily practices are indispensable.
Information tends to keep consciousness mired in that dream-thinking layer of consciousness .... home of the "bound soul" ... the pasu ... the "beast of burden" ... the thought-self.
Practices open our eyes to the reality beyond the bad dream of limitation.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 20 2009 11:38:44 PM |
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Subtle (Astral, Etheric, Causal, Etc.) Bodies
